fortyninethousand322 Posted August 9, 2013 Posted August 9, 2013 Here's a better analogy, in line with yours. Approximately 4% of MEN have murdered. Therefore, according to your logic, ALL men should be under surveillance at all times. In case they might be among the 4%. And thus, victims would be saved. You seriously want me to believe you would not be on board with this? Assuming the worst out of people and instituting government supervision over it is walking on a terribly thin line which I'm sure most of you would not want to walk on. Unless it only pertained to women. Right? I'm sympathetic to your point. But would you agree that in a situation where a woman wants a man to pay child support she should have to prove that he is in fact the biological father? No matter whose name is on the birth certificate.
somedude81 Posted August 9, 2013 Posted August 9, 2013 Why? If I say that the baby is my husband's, or that I'm not sure whose baby it is, why is my word not good enough? Because I'm a woman? If WE (the supposed father AND I) decide that such a test is in order, then that's how it should be decided. It's funny that you are fighting so strongly against this. Perhaps you or somebody you know had a child with another man that wasn't their partner and lied about it? It's not about trust. I can just imagine a hospital stating that from now on all births will come with paternity tests, and they small group of women protesting against it. "No no, we don't need to know!" "We don't need paternity tests. Is our word not good enough because we're women?" 1
Keenly Posted August 9, 2013 Posted August 9, 2013 Why? If I say that the baby is my husband's, or that I'm not sure whose baby it is, why is my word not good enough? Because I'm a woman? If WE (the supposed father AND I) decide that such a test is in order, then that's how it should be decided. So you would just refuse anyway... Look, your word does not a scientific fact make. If you know its his, and he asks for one, why not just do it so you can rub it in his is face, or at the very least get him to stop doubting it. Your extremely defensive reaction , to me, would be a huge red flag. The fact that if I asked and you were vehemently against it, would arouse my suspicion to far greater heights than whatever low level it was previously at.
Keenly Posted August 9, 2013 Posted August 9, 2013 If it's across the board, I have less of an issue with it (though I think it's unnecessary). It's the idea that it's needed because of the assumed, innate poor character of women in general that makes me cringe. Well, I can't believe you honestly think that the kids should end up in the street. Or the newborn babies just put in a dumpster if their moms don't take them home. Despite your libertarian socio-political stance. So, this would necessitate some further governmental hand-outs in place to provide for the children of unknown paternity, if the moms are not capable of doing it on their own. In relation to the bottom half of your post, not my problem.
fortyninethousand322 Posted August 9, 2013 Posted August 9, 2013 If it's across the board, I have less of an issue with it (though I think it's unnecessary). It's the idea that it's needed because of the assumed, innate poor character of women in general that makes me cringe. Well that's just hypothetical. I wouldn't mandate it, but it's an interesting idea. And I don't think people propose the paternity tests because they think that women are poor in character. It's generally assumed that if you give birth to a baby, it's your baby. A man doesn't have that conclusive proof without a DNA test. Since he doesn't give birth. It's a question of biology. Well, I can't believe you honestly think that the kids should end up in the street. Or the newborn babies just put in a dumpster if their moms don't take them home. Despite your libertarian socio-political stance. So, this would necessitate some further governmental hand-outs in place to provide for the children of unknown paternity, if the moms are not capable of doing it on their own. You picked out one thing I said and took it out of context. If let's say "Jane Smith" has children out of wedlock. She says "Bob Johnson" is the father. Should she have to prove he is in fact the biological father of her children? I would say yes. That no matter what the consequences she should still have to prove that in order to get him to pay up. Even if that ended up with people on the street. It probably wouldn't, but it could I suppose. But by all means continue your caricature of libertarians being racist/classist/sexist/horrible human beings.
veggirl Posted August 9, 2013 Posted August 9, 2013 IMO this is along the same lines of a pre-nup.......it's a Just In Case thing, you hope you will never have to use the information but...it's a security thing, a protection thing. You can never know 100% that someone didn't cheat on you (hence a test), you can never know 100% that your marriage will survive (hence a pre-nup if you are so inclined). I'd be totally fine with it. I wouldn't be offended in the slightest. I wouldn't take it personally, really, I mean I wouldn't look at it as an accusation or something like that. It's just a very simple thing that could help someone IMMENSELY. I would understand why a guy would want a paternity test, for sure. No matter how wonderful the R is.
veggirl Posted August 9, 2013 Posted August 9, 2013 Do I think the govt should require paternity testing? No way. But I do think if a man requests one (and pays for it), it should be done no questions asked while the baby is in the hospital. There shouldn't have to be a court order or anything. 4
Woggle Posted August 9, 2013 Posted August 9, 2013 I seriously don't understand why some women have such a thing against paternity tests? If they are not dishonest why are they so opposed to them? 1
fortyninethousand322 Posted August 9, 2013 Posted August 9, 2013 Or, are you all on board with being considered a pedophile until it's proven that you are not? I'm pretty sure the average person assumes that any guy over a certain age who has been single for a long time is in fact a pedophile. Or some kind of sexual deviant. Not a good assumption, but if you've enough episodes of Law and Order: SVU, you understand why people would have that impression.
somedude81 Posted August 9, 2013 Posted August 9, 2013 No. Yes it is. If they DON'T know, and they need to know, they WILL opt for a DNA test. People should not be considered guilty until proven innocent, especially when it's just because of gender. A woman's word that she's not guilty should be just as valid as a man's. If there is evidence against either of them, investigation is in order. Just because they might be pulling a fast one … because it's physically possible for them? No. What percentage of men sexually abuse children? I just found (google, I'm not saying this is accurate) a statistic that it's one in 20. Should all men be surveilled and investigated for it? If you would stand up against that, is it because you sexually abuse children? Or, are you all on board with being considered a pedophile until it's proven that you are not? I can feel my brain cells dying. Nice debating with you. Good day.
fortyninethousand322 Posted August 9, 2013 Posted August 9, 2013 I agree that if it's in dispute, and there is a question of support, she SHOULD have to prove it. That is not the premise of this thread, though. The premise is that, since it's physically possible for a woman to have a baby whose paternity is not known, she SHOULD step up and volunteer to "prove" who the daddy is if she's a decent human being. I seriously would like to know where this would end, on a societal level. Not in a good place. Innocent until proven guilty. And, as I've already said, if people want to have sex, a child might result. They might have to be responsible for it. Face it. Right, as I've said I'm sympathetic to your point, though I understand the other side as well. I'm sure a balance could be found between the two.
somedude81 Posted August 9, 2013 Posted August 9, 2013 I seriously don't understand why some women have such a thing against paternity tests? If they are not dishonest why are they so opposed to them? Because if somebody wants a paternity test, it means that they don't absolutely compltely trust their partner 110%, which means that the man is a pedophile.
sweetjasmine Posted August 9, 2013 Posted August 9, 2013 Would you complain if a hospital instituted mandatory paternity tests? Yes, mostly because it'd be a waste of resources, and it's bad medicine to add on unnecessary procedures. Have any of you ever known a couple that had trouble conceiving? "Well, honey, I know we've been desperate to have a baby for 7 years and that you've miscarried 3 times, leaving you emotionally scarred, but now that you've made it to the third trimester, I just thought you should know that I want a paternity test! It's a Just In Case measure. Did you know that 1% of babies don't know who their real dad is? Well, going to the store for some milk, you need anything?" 1
Quiet Storm Posted August 9, 2013 Posted August 9, 2013 I don't think the tests should be automatic, but they should do them upon request. You don't need permission to get them. You can buy a kit from Rite Aid, get the swabs yourself & send them off. In Baltimore City, they even have a "Who's your daddy?" van that rides around and provides paternity tests. If my husband questioned the paternity of our three kids, I would be hurt that he didn't trust me. However, my emotional distress over it doesn't change the fact that he has a right to know. My kids all look like him, though. 2
Woggle Posted August 9, 2013 Posted August 9, 2013 If my wife and I ever did have a kid I would not need that reassurance. I don't like to guess whether or not a woman is trustworthy. If she is why not prove it and give a man peace of mind?
somedude81 Posted August 9, 2013 Posted August 9, 2013 Yes, mostly because it'd be a waste of resources, and it's bad medicine to add on unnecessary procedures. And how many more resources do you think it would take for a hospital to perform a paternity test? Have any of you ever known a couple that had trouble conceiving? "Well, honey, I know we've been desperate to have a baby for 7 years and that you've miscarried 3 times, leaving you emotionally scarred, but now that you've made it to the third trimester, I just thought you should know that I want a paternity test! It's a Just In Case measure. Did you know that 1% of babies don't know who their real dad is? Well, going to the store for some milk, you need anything?" How is that in any way related to a hospital performing a routine paternity test?
Woggle Posted August 9, 2013 Posted August 9, 2013 So what exactly are you saying? That if your wife got pregnant, you would think she ought to go ahead and ask for a dna test to help you have peace of mind? So you don't have to guess whether she's trustworthy or not? Yes I would need that peace of mind. Also many are assumed pedophiles. I know a guy who is a single father and on a few occasions when he brings his daughter to a playground or a park the mothers there are openly hostile and a few have asked him to leave because he is a man. If men can put up with that why shouldn't women put up with having to prove that a child is the father's? 3
fortyninethousand322 Posted August 9, 2013 Posted August 9, 2013 If men were allowed* to give birth, this wouldn't be an issue. Unfortunately**, only women are able to give birth, thus giving them piece of mind that the child in question is theirs. *And by "allow", I mean by nature. **"Unfortunately" for some people, I personally would not want to go through a pregnancy.
somedude81 Posted August 9, 2013 Posted August 9, 2013 I don't think the tests should be automatic, but they should do them upon request. You don't need permission to get them. You can buy a kit from Rite Aid, get the swabs yourself & send them off. In Baltimore City, they even have a "Who's your daddy?" van that rides around and provides paternity tests. If my husband questioned the paternity of our three kids, I would be hurt that he didn't trust me. However, my emotional distress over it doesn't change the fact that he has a right to know. My kids all look like him, though. I didn't know you could buy the tests in drugstores. Turns out that they cost about $150 total. Though the issue with buying them from a store is that it suddenly becomes a trust issue. Either the guy tells his partner that he wants to or has performed a paternity test on the baby and the woman would possibly get emotional about it and accusing him of not trusting him and so on. Or the guy would do the test without telling her, and now he's keeping a secret. Having a hospital do the paternity test as a part of the routine postnatal tests prevents all that drama. It's no longer about trust when it's something that the hospital just does automatically.
Keenly Posted August 9, 2013 Posted August 9, 2013 Sounds like the females ego is more important than the mans peace of mind ? Just do the test if you know its his. The attitude says it all. Accuse a Cheater of cheating and they defensively freak out. If a woman freak out at the idea of a paternity test, thats pretty revealing . 1
Got it Posted August 9, 2013 Posted August 9, 2013 Sounds like the females ego is more important than the mans peace of mind ? Just do the test if you know its his. The attitude says it all. Accuse a Cheater of cheating and they defensively freak out. If a woman freak out at the idea of a paternity test, thats pretty revealing . Mmmmmkay. . . . . I think that can happen but that doesn't mean that only women who cheat would be offended. If a man wants that, it's fine. Just be upfront about it from the get go.
Woggle Posted August 9, 2013 Posted August 9, 2013 Let me get this straight. You dudes here want every single baby born to receive a paternity test at $150/pop, footed by taxpayers, because a tiny percentage of babies are raised by men who aren't the fathers? Yeah ok - good luck with that. We have trials which cost a whole lot more to determine whether or not somebody is guilty. Why should a man be made to pay just because a woman says he is the father? Why shouldn't they know for sure before they send him a bill? 1
fortyninethousand322 Posted August 9, 2013 Posted August 9, 2013 Let me get this straight. You dudes here want every single baby born to receive a paternity test at $150/pop, footed by taxpayers, because a tiny percentage of babies are raised by men who aren't the fathers? Yeah ok - good luck with that. I don't. Of course, I don't want anything paid for by taxpayers. Starting with the salaries of every single politician. But, the idea of paternity (and maternity) tests being performed immediately upon birth sounds intriguing. Though I wouldn't mandate it.
AMusing Posted August 9, 2013 Posted August 9, 2013 It's not about trust. How on Earth could you pretend it's not about trust? It's completely about trust. Whether you are wrong not to trust the mother of your baby, or want reassurance, that's a different question (and a mildly interesting one). But don't pretend it's not about trust.... That denial kills your argument. And how many more resources do you think it would take for a hospital to perform a paternity test? A lot more than you think. A quality paternity test--one that will hold up in court--easily costs a few hundred dollars. The drug store versions aren't properly certified and are considered too unreliable; no hospital would use a non-certified lab to run their genetic tests. So who exactly is paying for all those tests? Cost of birth is already astronomical. You want to add another $500 to each patient's medical bill?!? On a personal note, if my husband asked for a paternity test, I would be hurt and concerned. In the same manner I would be if he asked to see my cell phone or read my private emails. Or he would be, if I decided to follow him out to a "guy's night out" just to "make sure" he wasn't being unfaithful. Bottom line: I would agree to it, sure, but I would take it as an indication that there is a deep lack of trust in our relationship. Something that would be way more fun would be to run a 23andMe (or similar) DNA microarray on all three of us. Seeing how our different genetic variants were passed on to our child--and having a chance to talk about what that might mean for our baby's future--would be seriously neat. And, I suppose, you could notice pretty easily if many of the variants weren't following a Mendelian pattern of inheritance (i.e., the baby probably isn't ours/his). 3
Woggle Posted August 9, 2013 Posted August 9, 2013 I don't know why a woman would be offended by a man needing peace of mind. Do you trust your husbands and boyfriends on everything?
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