Proof that there is no God?

[strongnrelaxed]

In the OJ Simpson trial, he was found "not guilty" beyond a reasonable doubt. Although most experts seemed to agree (not all, of course) that he was indeed the one who committed the murder.

 

But when the standard of proof was made more reasonable in civil court, he was found guilty by a preponderance of the evidence.

 

According to Wikipedia "The standard is met if the proposition is more likely to be true than not true. Effectively, the standard is satisfied if there is greater than 50 percent chance that the proposition is true."

 

With this as a starting point, one could look at any one of several hundred factors that pretty much leap right over this standard with ease. Here are a few:

 

1. Not one single shred of credible evidence for the extraordinary claims found in any religious text.

 

2. The fact that virtually every scientific claim ever made by the Judeo-Christian texts has been refuted, from demonic possession (now we know it might be schizophrenia and is treatable), to the flat earth (we know it is spherical), to geocentrism , to various afflictions attibuted to God's wrath (all sorts of bacterial infections can now be cured with antibiotics, earthquakes can be predicted to a certain degree, and we understand weather better than ever before).

 

3. Virtually all Christians, Muslims, and Jews are in fact Atheists in terms of the myriad other Gods who have come and gone over the ages - Zeuss, Thor, Mercury, Isis, Osiris, etc. This one is just another in a long line of gods. God him/herself even acknowledges as much several times in the bible (that other gods exist, but you can place none of those other gods before him)

 

4. Most Christian traditions and holidays were stolen from pagan celebrations that predate Christ. From Easter (Spring equinox) to Christmas (winter solstice) - Christians have plagiarized so much that it is nearly indistinguishable from the very heathen practices from whence they came!

 

I could go on, but these major pieces of evidence make it clear that this is just one more in a long like of very flawed attempts to explain the purpose of life in the cosmos.

 

If I were on a jury in a civil case and the standard of proof was a "preponderance of evidence" religion, god, Christianity and the rest of it would be dismissed outright and proven false once and for all.

[LBean]

I am not a religious person at all, and I agree with everything you've said. It's one of those things, no one could ever convince me there's a god, and I would never be able to convince a devout religious person there's not.

 

The argument is exhausting, like continuously banging your head on the wall until your eyes bleed.

[pie2]

I'm glad you're back, strongnrelaxed! It's been almost exactly a year. I wonder what it is about this time of year that gets you in the "anti-god" mood on LS?

 

Anyway, the circumstantial evidence for God is overwhelming.

[jphcbpa]

People often see what they want to see. Bottom line is there is not 100% proof either way. In the end it is faith.

[KathyM]

Christians are called to spread the gospel to those who are open and willing to hear it. If someone is not open or willing to hear it, that person can elect not to listen to it, not to read about it, not to enter a place of worship, not to believe what is said, etc. This idea that someone is forcing their faith on you is ludicrous, unless you live in a country where a certain religion is mandated and all other religions/faiths are outlawed and not permitted.

[dichotomy]

There is no proof anything can go faster than the speed of light...wait a second....what’s this about “unusually distorted regions of spacetime” allowing… DOH!

 

Of course it silly to think a supreme being could read you mind… wait a second that’s possible?

 

When you know something for sure, when you can predict it - let me know. Quantum Mechanics tells us otherwise.

 

"Not only does God definitely play dice, but He sometimes confuses us by throwing them where they can't be seen." Stephen Hawking

[dichotomy]

The Catholic Church has no major issues with Darwin's therories nor evolution.

 

However, It will add that God is behind it, but does not dispute the process happens.

[M30USA]

I no longer choose to debate/discuss anything with anyone who does not accept the theory of evolution as the truth that it is. You're right, it is fruitless to do that. One side is evidently right, and can prove it, and the other, well, the other is simply wrong.

 

But, if there were actual evidence of a god/divine creator, and someone presented it to me, my position would change because I believe in basing my beliefs and my understanding of the world on evidence.

 

That's very closed-minded. If you want to know the truth, evolutionary theory isn't even "where it's at" right now among the non-religious. In line with James Watson, discoverer of DNA (an atheist), there is a rapidly growing theory that life was seeded here by extraterrestrials and that what APPEARS to be genetic mutation is actually genetic manipulation. Evolution as it stands now will be a dead theory in 50 years, at which point atheists will then believe the ET hypothesis via genetic manipulation. Unfortunately when this happens atheists (and many Christians) will be on the wrong side of the table yet again by arguing that these ETs are "evolved beings" just like us, not realizing they too are created beings (namely angels) who have done exactly what the Bible says they have done for anyone who cares to read it literally.

Edited August 12, 2013 by M30USA

[M30USA]

Not the aliens again

 

Get back to me in 50 years.

[HokeyReligions]

I am by no means a liberal, I adhere with my own political stance that isn't altered by the drab opinions of pundits and their drooling banes. The problem with your stance, however, is rather elementary.

 

1. Liberalism is a political sphere. Christianity is not.

 

2. Liberalism, being a political apperture, can influence policy and social constructs based on that policy. Christianity is not political, and therefore, should not.

 

We can argue that christianity should have some impact strictly on merit of its existence to our country or one of the world, but specific to the US, the church and state are seperate entities. Forming an opinion on religion, and thus, attempting to alter policy which constructs social normalities is unconstitutional, and contemptuous.

 

Theocracy died out because of the rigid structure of moral law, and the underpinnings of which were found to be inflexible, nonsensical and irrational. Sharia is a perfect example of this, as its been implemented throughout history and failed.

 

Keeping religion out of public policy and social constructs constituted therein is the only humane way to keep faith from intermixing with bland law, else we have a purging of genocidal proportions.

 

I would agree with much of what you are saying except for one fundamental basis. Atheism is a faith-based belief. Athiests believe thete is no God. They cannot disprove God but have complete faith that no god exists.

 

My question then becomes why should one faith based belief system be forced into docial constructs and political decision making over any other faith based belief system?

 

Another question, which I have experienced, is - why are Christians constantly being tol to be tolerant of others but athiests are not?

[pie2]

Such as? I'm probably going to regret entering this discussion

 

 

I no longer choose to debate/discuss anything with anyone who does not accept the theory of evolution as the truth that it is.

 

Well, that solves that for me.

[strongnrelaxed]

pie! You are still here. I respect you too much to try to change your mind on beliefs. But the evidence is clear. Not ghosts in the sky and no need to worship the zombie corpse on a stick.

 

You are free! Now you can be a good person because it is in you to be good. Not because of fear of burning forever. It is so liberating and so human and so humbling. I hope you see it one day.

[strongnrelaxed]

A more relevant question would be, does the acceptance of the non-existence of god give you the authority to enforce liberal whims, rules, regulations, their abominable authority, and their interpretation thereof, to the rest of us?

 

The answer to this is most correctly no, but in the realm of public policy and social constructs, the mindless mass of atheistic communists, most certainly yes

 

I am neither liberal nor communist nor try to impose my views on others. But when religious people fly planes into American buildings killing thousands of innocent people, I get a bit pissed off.

 

Christians, Jews, and Muslims are all the same to me. They worship the very same god. So if you ever wonder why atheists "push" views. It is more like we push BACK against ignorance and religious atrocities. There are so many that the debate is over. Just a few believers clinging to outdated belief systems and trying to kill each other.

 

Please keep me out of that, thank you.

[strongnrelaxed]

Have you ever watched "Jesus Camp"? Parents force their children into their religions by force every day by the millions.

 

When you are blatantly dishonest in a discussion like this, it doesn't help your point.

[strongnrelaxed]

 

*snip*

William Provine (evolutionist/atheist) contends that such a position is based on ignorance, intellectual dishonesty, or wishful thinking when it comes to the idea of "theistic evolution".

 

Your comments here remind me that, while I am confident that there is no god, we still need religion for people like you. Religion serves several purposes and one of them is to keep folks like you occupied with ghosts, aliens, and ignorant of how systems work.

 

I wish that were different, I really do. But it is an ugly truth of life. Some people cannot be good without the threat of eternal damnation. I require no such compulsion.

 

Keep believing! Jesus is watching. In the meantime I will enjoy being free of all that silliness and continue to enjoy life with like minded people.

[Grumpybutfun]

A person's spiritual belief and the way they incorporate that into their life is personal. I don't understand the overweening desire among some people to thrust their own perspective upon others, whether that be belief or disbelief in whatever.

 

Wise words. Mme. There is no parity in spirituality, as there is no parity in individual's experiences as it relates to their character.

Grumps

[happydate]

Plausible deniability of GOD and the Law Of Free Will as well as the Law Of Cause and Effect.

 

Let's examine this statement -- When the student is ready, the teacher will appear.

 

Some people are already on the spiritual path and their level of consciousness dictates when they are ready for an outer or an inner teaching of God. When the students are ready, God will appear to them slowly. Because it is the Universe Law that God and his agents CAN NOT VIOLATE the will of any human beings. Dark forces and entities can violate the free will of any human beings through covert suggestions.

 

So in a way the reason you don't see or feel or even smell god because you don't believe it. So you asked for proof, but then you won't find it. The state of your disbelieve is your will and God can not violate that will. So then, it's a catch-22 situation here. You want to be shown God but you don't believe it.

In God's Law; you need to first "believe" him and then will he appear in the mystical ways. Some people are blessed by the holy spirit, but when they are, they already surrendered to the will of the Lord.

 

Now of course, does it mean that since God gave me the will to do anything I want, do I have carte blanche to actually do anything I want with the Law of Free Will since God can't do nothing to me?

The answer is no. God knows that you will abuse the Law of Free Will, so he designed a safety mechanism that acts as a automated teaching system in the absent of the real spiritual teacher, which is God and his agents namely Arch Angels and the Ascended Masters (Jesus Christ, Mother Mary, St. John the Baptist etc..) . This automated system is known as the Cause and Effect, or Karma which is based on an energy system. Quantum mechanics had proven that everything on earth is made of atoms and small particles vibrating at a lower frequency to give it some mass. Same thing with karma and cause and effect principle where the energy you did that is devious and malicious and evil in intent which vibrates as a lower frequency. This is your own mis-qualified energy which you need to eventually somehow transmute or re-balance. Otherwise the more you accumulate these low vibrational energies through your actions of free will in dis-regard to the will of the Lord will actually cause you to have more bad luck, bad relationships, worst relationships and unlucky dates. Things just seem to not be going your way all the time. Usually then if you beat the bushes long enough, the Lord hopes that you eventually will tire out and submit to him. This automated teaching system is a beauty in design. On one hand, it does not violate your free will, because it is your free will that caused the effect that you are experiencing on this earth plus it is a system that acts like a bank of mis-qualified energies that eventually you will hate your life that the only way out of this mess is to surrender to god. But then, it's your FREE WILL to surrender to him. God knows his stuff well.

 

Contrast this to someone who communes and read rosaries daily with the lord and do the deeds of his or her divine plan, these energies then vibrate at higher frequencies and goes back to the Universe and then multiplied and then returned back to the person, like the bank paying interest or dividends on your good deeds. This benefits the person and everything seemed to be going like clock work. The closer his or relationship with Christ, the more benefits he or she shall receive in return. That's why it's explained in the Parables of the Talents. Ever wonder why some people are just SO LUCKY and had it all including a long lasting fulfilling and loving relationship with wife and husband and you don't? Think about that.

 

I wouldn't waste my time trying to convince someone if God's true or real. That person will find out by him or herself like I did.

 

I started out when I was young to be a non-believer of God as it clashes with my believe that having sex before marriage is not something I agree upon. Fast forward many decades later and after having a strewn of bad lucks, personal catastrophes and almost a close death experience when I was shown the light! Unless you're down on the end of the road asking for mercy and forgiveness, you will not believe god.

 

It's usually this initiation among non-believers. My uncle was also the same initiated. He was an atheist but had a life death situation that a Catholic priest saved him from.

 

Blessings...

Edited September 5, 2013 by happydate

[robbysurfs]

Interesting debate I am a science major at a Ivy League school. This is something worth looking at for all it is about the "God Particle" rather higgs boson. It is very important to be clear and understand that this is a topic that goes beyond our understanding down to the atom. We all shouldn't assume anything we cannot prove or disprove....

 

Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind.

Albert Einstein

 

Why the Higgs boson 'God particle' matters - Technology & Science - CBC News

[happydate]

Interesting debate I am a science major at a Ivy League school. This is something worth looking at for all it is about the "God Particle" rather higgs boson. It is very important to be clear and understand that this is a topic that goes beyond our understanding down to the atom. We all shouldn't assume anything we cannot prove or disprove....

 

Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind.

Albert Einstein

 

Why the Higgs boson 'God particle' matters - Technology & Science - CBC News

 

Albert Einstein's quote..

 

"No Problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it".

 

If you want to solve the problem of God as Einstein puts it, you can not solve it with your current level of consciousness. You need to raise and go beyond that consciousness.

 

I think Science will one day address the issue if God is real or not. It is proof that the Earth is not the center of the Universe or even flat -- where then the middle ages Churches were adamant that it is real and kill people for going against the truth. Now think about it. Who gave the scientists the idea that the earth was not flat and was not the center of the Universe? Situation then is no different than the situation now?

 

Blessings..

Edited September 5, 2013 by happydate

[robbysurfs]

I am made of the universe and the universe is made of me so therefore I to am god, so we are all connected by the energy that binds us all and that is a scientific fact . Isaac newton saw apple fall from a tree and thus the universal law of gravitation is born. That could be described as divine intervention or mere coincidence my point being is until hard factual evidence proves or disproves the debate will never end much like the universe or how god would say it "I am the alpha and omega" I can say this if you believe in a old man in the sky tossing lightning bolts down at us I will say with confidence I think you are wrong. God or no God is up to ones own spirituality and faith if you believe in that, but don't be so adamant to prove something beyond your own understanding.

 

"You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make him drink"

 

Blessingsss

[happydate]

I am made of the universe and the universe is made of me so therefore I to am god, so we are all connected by the energy that binds us all and that is a scientific fact . Isaac newton saw apple fall from a tree and thus the universal law of gravitation is born. That could be described as divine intervention or mere coincidence my point being is until hard factual evidence proves or disproves the debate will never end much like the universe or how god would say it "I am the alpha and omega" I can say this if you believe in a old man in the sky tossing lightning bolts down at us I will say with confidence I think you are wrong. God or no God is up to ones own spirituality and faith if you believe in that, but don't be so adamant to prove something beyond your own understanding.

 

"You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make him drink"

 

Blessingsss

 

That's the beauty of the Law of Free Will and that you are exercising it and so has I. Love is about promoting the creative process. Fear is about expressing the desire not to change; to accept the status quo and to accept an automatic salvation to the lord and heaven if you just do absolutely nothing.

 

I like your quote. Yes, you can not make a horse drink but that is a fear of the horse because the water might contain poison. But if the horse doesn't drink, it'll die of thirst but if it drinks it'll die of poison. That's why it's called faith!

Incidentally, no animal beings be it human and horses survive without air and water. EVENTUALLY, the horse has to drink water. It's instinct or survival unless it has no more will to live. In the case of god, it's an instinct we have when all else fail to answer our purpose in life that we seek him. However, some people do actually commit an act of suicide when they have no more will to live thinking they can meet him.

 

Which is why this discussion is rather pointless. The student is obviously not ready to see god, so god won't appear.

 

Blessings.

Edited September 5, 2013 by happydate

[Robert Z]

A universal negative can never be proven. The proposition in the op is fundamentally flawed.

 

It can never be shown that a god does not exist.

 

Not that I believe in a god, but it is interesting that at the very moment that a god would be needed, the first moment of creation, science fails and is reduced to arm waving arguments.

Edited September 7, 2013 by Robert Z

[strongnrelaxed]

Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind.

Albert Einstein

 

Just because Albert Einstein said it, does not make it fact. He is not beyond reproach - especially in matters of spirituality. I find it odd that religious people for centuries would literally crucify, torture and destroy scientists for blasphemy, and years later use quotes from scientists to somehow back their claims.

 

Science and Religion are absolutely and irretrievable incompatible. Science demands proof, logic, reason, evidence, and peer review. Anything less is opinion.

 

Religion demands the exact opposite - it requires that we suspend our critical thinking (i.e. disbelief) and just believe. We must believe - and actually openly accept without question - the most preposterous claims and fantastical and disgusting propositions.

 

Christians claim that we must all engage weekly in ritualistic cannibalism of a brutalized bloodied zombie corpse that was murdered slowly on a torture stick. Forget about claims of divinity and everything else for just a moment, and think about what is being asked here. When we put things into clear terms it sounds bizarre. It SHOULD sound bizarre because it IS bizarre.

 

Just like the claims that one must blow up the infidel in order to claim some number of virgins in the afterlife. Has anyone consulted with said virgins? Do they get a say? What is the proposition to THEM? This is disgusting too, but millions of people gleefully praise such words.

 

It is all so sick and sad and disturbing. And so many good decent people really think that they are good for believing such things.

 

This needs to stop. No more indoctrinating children. If we could just stop this we would all be better off.

[SOB86]

Speaking from an agnostic point of view, religion and God are two different things. You can disprove various religions. You can't disprove God, nor can you ever prove that he exists. God could be some abstract thing that we will never understand until we are dead, or perhaps we are not meant to interact with God or acknowledge him.

[BetheButterfly]

Speaking from an agnostic point of view, religion and God are two different things.

 

True. I'm not an Agnostic, but I do very much respect and understand the agnostic point of view, because it's the most objective and not a subjective point of view, unlike both Theism and Atheism.

 

Yep, religion is merely the following:

 

"1. a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.

2. a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects: the Christian religion; the Buddhist religion.

 

3. the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices: a world council of religions."

 

- Religion | Define Religion at Dictionary.com

 

 

 

 

You can disprove various religions.

Agreed, though proving or disproving religions is very subjective. For example, I consider Islam to be based on a false prophet, whereas Muslims consider my belief (Christianity) to be corrupt. So, while I can consider myself to "disprove" Islam and Muslims can consider themselves to "disprove" Christianity and Judaism by saying they are corrupted, it really just becomes a fight which sadly has over the years become violent with people killing each other though Christians becoming violent is just as unacceptable as if followers of Martin Luther King Jr. become violent, since both Jesus Christ and MLK Jr. did not kill people but rather were killed. It's so important for people of different religions (and no set of beliefs) to tolerate and be kind to each other instead of killing and hurting and mocking each other.

 

You can't disprove God, nor can you ever prove that he exists.

True. Most of the people who believe in God do so because of their personal experience and/or the personal experiences of others they trust. As for other gods, there are reasons why people believe in them (such as the Hindu gods) and while one can definitely say those gods do not nor have ever existed, it is a fact that people believe in them.

 

 

God could be some abstract thing that we will never understand until we are dead, or perhaps we are not meant to interact with God or acknowledge him.

Understood, though due to my personal experience, I do think God wants people to seek and find Him. Why God loves hide and seek, I don't know, which is why I understand and respect that people do not believe in Him. I do not think Atheism is bad at all, though sadly many Atheists are very intolerant to people who do have experiences different than theirs. Again, I respect the Agnostic point of view because it's the most objective. Regardless, it's awesome when Theists, Atheists, and Agnostics can live together in peace and mutual respect, in spite of our differences!