I am curious, why do people date someone who is not available?

[ComingInHot]

2sure, That was an excellent explanation. I can see how that would work.

respectfu question: Did you feel (understanding you were in a bad place) there would be the pressure/pressures and/or expectations that you knew you would have if just dating a single man? If so, like what?

[Star Gazer]

I have been thinking about this. So you think because I am working on friendships with woman, verus romantic dating, that I could be emotionally unavailable to date right now?

 

Very plainly, yes. You're not interested in romantic dating right now. As such, it would make sense that you'd be drawn to or seek out the company of women who are not 100% available for a romantic relationship.

[2sure]

2sure, That was an excellent explanation. I can see how that would work.

respectfu question: Did you feel (understanding you were in a bad place) there would be the pressure/pressures and/or expectations that you knew you would have if just dating a single man? If so, like what?

 

It wasn't so much pressure from single men, I get what you're saying.

I was disappointed in my previous relationships and realized the common factor was me. I didn't know exactly what to do about that, but didn't want to risk it again. I had some anger too.

[ComingInHot]

Thank you 2Sure*

[2sure]

Otherwise nobody could be dating them. Just because they are married does not make them unavailable. Emotionally or physically or even legally. If they were truly not available to date then nobody could be dating them.

 

True. If you call waiting to see him freely for ten years a date.

I don't.

Or Skyping . Not a date to me.

[Babolat]

Sweeeeeet!!! The second I saw it, but then the bunny threw me off*

It plays nice!

Seriously though, if more people beat that ball against the backboard or ran themselves stupid around the court, there would be less cheating as everyone would be Too whipped*

CIH*

 

Well, if I could get rid of all my nagging injuries I'd be on the court every day! So I hike, bike, work out and kayak now...and play tennis when my body lets me!

[ComingInHot]

Had my First injury last summer. Sucks, I know.

Not much of a hiker unless I can climb a bit too. Tennis, skiing, and I am going fo get back into rowing a single while my family kyaks*

 

No, I'm Not an available MW... Lol!!

And if one is M, they legally are Not single or available jaysgirl!

[2sure]

Ohhhhhhhhh! I guess I was confused.

[2sure]

I for one don't hold OW accountable for my X husbands affairs, he lied to them .

He made up a whole complete fictional story about himself, none of it true. Fantastic lies, like he had six kids, lived in another country.

 

It was pretty transparent, but enough to convince someone vulnerable. So, to them he was available. I see right through people like that, but some people don't.

[MissBee]

A couple of folks have hit on it here in my opinion: married, dating someone else, these people are not emotionally available. They are not single if you will. And, maybe for some subconscious reason, they are attracted to them.

I hear a lot of posters saying "we had similar circumstances" and "we talked about that a lot". I think you made yourself vulnerable, weak if you will, which created feelings of love...who knows though, I am no Psychologist; I did stay at a Holiday Inn express last night though!

 

Funny

 

But ditto to the above.

[MissBee]

I disagree with the word invading. Invited - not invading. I think that's a commone thing to assume that the AP invaded something that as if they weren't wanted there. They can't invade something that they were invited into in my opinion. There are two people in a marriage and if one person invites someone else in that is not an invasion just because the other person didn't agree it is still involvement by invite.

 

No...sorry. It doesn't work like that.

 

When you're married, unless both people have agreed to invite someone, a one-sided invitation holds no weight and is no invitation at all. You are engaging in a relationship with one spouse, who agreed to it, but you have not been invited into the marriage itself, as in terms of the marriage, it needs the signature of the two people, which without, is an infringement.

 

My roommate and I share a lease...she and I both live there and neither of us can invite anyone else to live at the apartment on our own without consent of the other person. Well you technically can, just like a MP can, but since the other party in the contract did not agree....your invitation is null and void. I wish someone would bring suitcases telling me my roommate invited them to live there. Uhh maybe so....but that invitation is null and void since I did not know or agree to it. Sorry.

 

Otherwise nobody could be dating them. Just because they are married does not make them unavailable. Emotionally or physically or even legally. If they were truly not available to date then nobody could be dating them.

 

I agree, with the caveat, if they are in a secret affair and you're a secret OW/OM...they are not freely available and one is clearly looking at the term available in very literal terms without understanding how the meaning works in real life. As if they were truly free and available, they would be dating you* openly and proudly, as normal available people do, and not secretly.

 

If anyone tells me they are available and free to do something but it has to be done under dark with a million stipulations, there is some conflict, and that conflict renders them not completely available.

 

In any case not many relationship experts and psychologist would agree with your definition of available and more subscribe to the school of thought that married people who are having affairs are unavailable in many if not all ways and often times so are those who choose this arrangement. So it comes down to whose definition of available is sanctioned by experts versus whose is their own definition convenient to their own personal philosophy.

 

*all use of "you" is plural btw and is not in reference to whether your personal situation was secret or not, but a response to the idea that married people in affairs are available simply because they are in an affair....which is not the same as dating.

Edited August 11, 2013 by MissBee

[MissBee]

We are obviously going to have to agree to disagree on this one. Available means what? 1. Present and ready for use; at hand; accessible: 2. Capable of being gotten; obtainable: 3. Qualified and willing to serve or assist.

 

So of course they aren't available for marriage as they are already legally married to someone. But all other ways? They are absolutely available because they made themselves available. If an AP can call/text/skype/visit/travel with/kiss/have sex with/love/be loved by and all that then that married person is absolutely available.

 

You might think it's not available enough for you as maybe you like marriage or that is your ultimate goal. But a marriage certificate does not make some one not available they have to make themselves not available.

 

So when they decidet hat they are available and invite someone else in they are not only available butu they are available to somenoe other than their spouse and that person was invited in. If you look at it practically the wayward spouse and their AP are the two who are in the know usually so they are not the interlopers on anything other than the marriage certificate because they are carrying out an entire relationship willingly and as consenting adults. The wayward spouse made themselves available invited their AP into a relationship with them and excluded the BS.

 

 

I'm not hung up on marriage certificates actually, I never talk about them or think about them, although I notice some "others" talk about them constantly as a way to invalidate the point that a marriage is not just a certificate but a relationship which happens to be legally acknowledged by a certificate.

 

It seems as though some OW try to make marriage seem flimsy by equating it to a piece of paper/certificate, as if it is nothing more, in order to soothe themselves, then try to glorify the affair as what? Some solid “heart felt” entity with inherently more meaning. This is flimsy. If you argue an affair is a relationship like any other, so is a marriage, except it gets legal, religious and social recognition and for many is the highest symbolic show of commitment. Question: if somehow your exMM proposed to you and wanted to marry you and you agreed, would your relationship all of a sudden be nothing but a piece of paper?

 

It’s a silly argument. Any relationship, marriage or not, could be reduced to some flimsy symbolic aspect, whether it is a paper, ring, titles etc. The marriage license is a piece of paper, but the marriage itself is the relationship and all it contains. The license and the relationship are very different things, much like a birth certificate and the actual birth are not the same. A birth certificate is simply a formality of civilized society documenting that a life was brought into the world, the more important aspects of this new life, emotional, spiritual, etc. are not encompassed in or hindered by the paper. Likewise, the marriage license in a civilized society is a formality which documents the union legally; however, the emotional, spiritual and other aspects are not solely encompassed or hindered by the paper, so I wish people would be more clever and stop attempting to make married people’s relationships seem inherently worthless and equivalent to a piece of paper. I get why OW would want to do this though, as I’m sure it feels better to imagine the marriage as solely a piece of paper and some dry formality, as it makes the A seem reasonable, versus seeing it as a full relationship someone is cheating in.

 

Anyone can be a cheater and be unavailable, they don't need to be married, they just need to be in another relationship in which they have obligations and made promises of monogamy then are secretly seeing someone else. Cheating is not hinged on whether one has a certificate, but on whether one is in a relationship and secretly in another and lying about it.

 

As I said, if you're available but have to be doing stuff in secret, behind someone's back, if you have primary and secondary partners, a compartmentalized life etc. your availability is questionable. If a secret affair shows availability in your mind, then we do have different ideas about what availability means. However, most OW, experience the unavailability firsthand when their married bf/gf has to prioritize their families over them and when they cannot be there for their oh so available partner or their oh so available partner them, why? Not because of a certificate, but because they are not available because of a whole other life.

 

Also, as I mentioned, the dictionary denotation of availability doesn't address how it is used in relationships and isn't how relationship experts and psychologists talk about availability.

 

And what you said doesn't negate what I said, we're agreeing on this point: ou said the WS invites the AP into a relationship with them and excludes the BS, and I also said: "You are engaging in a relationship with one spouse, who agreed to it, but you have not been invited into the marriage itself, as in terms of the marriage, it needs the signature of the two people, which without, is an infringement."

Edited August 11, 2013 by MissBee

[MissBee]

That's simply because some poeple value the actual relationship over the label on the relationship. Again, agree to disagree have a great night.

 

No clue what you're saying here and in reference to what exactly, but I agree to disagree. Enjoy your night as well.

[janedoe67]

"I invite you to rob this bank with me."

 

Nope...even with the word "invite" robbing a bank is still a crime.

 

And cheating is still cheating.

[Lady2163]

I have been reading some of the posts here, and I just don't get it.

 

I am not being rude or judgemental at all. More curious.

 

I recently went out with a girl who announced to me on the 2nd date she had a bf. She did not say much more so I continued to see her, thinking maybe they wer eon the outs or it was a way for her to keep from getting to close to soon (no real bf).

 

4-5 dates in, no romance, just some touching, I told her I cannot be the other man. I could not date someone knowing there was a man in her life that I was disrespecting. I reminded her she was not single.

 

She took a couple of days, came back to talk to me and agreed and said it was best we not see each other anymore. She said she had been trying to break up with her bf since before we hung out, he was not taking it well and that she needed to stay with him. She said she did not expect me to really like her, that a man like me (looks she said) could never like someone like her, and it caught her by surprise.

 

She earned a lot of points for saying that. Though she did text me recently saying when she was with me all she could think about was having sex with me.

 

So why do people do this? The other person is simply not available? They are not single? I will repeat...they are not available? So why get involved?

 

I'm not totally ignoring my past, but the "why" of my current friendship/relationship:

 

Financial: I have an all encompassing home based business. When I'm not here, it loses money. I live in a small town. Singles events are 90 minutes away. 3 hours on the road, 3 hours or more at the event. Thats six hours of money loss and no guarantee of a good time. I realized a long time ago if I were to meet someone and we decided to live together, I would probably have to shut down close to 80% of my business.

 

Time: emergencies occur in my business. I have to cancel or be late to roughly 2-3 social events a month. I don't think I would be very fair to a single man.

 

Effort: I'm through doing things I don't like while dating. I will never again attend a sporting event unless an immediate family member is playing (or the Boston Red Sox). My time is valuable, I'm not going to waste it seeing a "great" date movie like Kill Bill Volume 47.

 

Example (this really happened with a man I'd had several dates with, but no sex yet):

Man: Would you like to go to Town X (three hours away) and play paintball Saturday?

Me: I'm not a big paintball person. Is there something else we could do?

Man: I'd kind of like to play paintball

Me: I like laser tag, I'm usually good with that for a couple of hours

Man: My buddy has about 10 acres and we play all day. You could hang out with the wives or girlfriends who don't play.

Me: Have I met any of them?

Man: Not yet.

Me: I just don't think that will be something I'd enjoy. I'd like to spend time with you.

Man: We have the car ride, I was thinking your car might be better to take

Me: Why don't we forget about Saturday and do something together Sunday?

 

This resulted in a detailed discussion regarding the amount of alcohol drunk during these events and that we would be spending the night at his friends house on an air mattress.

 

Me: So Saturday and Sunday are not going to work. Friday night I'm free after 600 PM.

Man: I have to work.

Me: Okay, how about supper at my place Monday night?

Man: Sure.

 

I never heard fom him again. I cut out more personal parts of the IM, they were interspersed with the logistics of the weekend.

 

This helps me segue into my next thought, there are not "tons" of available men. I'm n my mid 40s and will NOT be having children. Single men my age who don't have children are still thinking about having them. I've tried dating them. Single men with children are either very devoted to their kids (good for the children, not so good for new relationships) or estranged from their kids - which often means they are partially at fault and have negative personality faults.

 

And don't even get me started on men that are players.

 

So, I have been seeing a married man 6 - 10 times a year for almost 7 years. We talk almost daily. We give each other thoughtful Christmas and birthday presents. We genuinely like each others's company. We don't have a lot of "dates". We have amazing sex with fantastic communication. I don't have to wash his underwear. I don't have to cook for him. He doesn't get bent out of shape when I put work before him. We have not had a fight in 7 years. We are the same sect of Christianity, but have vastly different political views. He drinks more than I like, but I smoke and he doesn't. We have different views on money, child rearing and pet care...but we still don't fight. I've good naturedly threatened his testicles if he even thinks of using the 20 cent solution on my aging pet (he thinks it is a waste to pay to have a pet taken to the vet to be ut down).

I've met someone I enjoy talking to, have the best sex of my life, work well with (when we have done projects together) and who fits in my lifestyle.

 

Final note: I may be partially emotionally unavailable as well. It's hard for me to determine if I truly am...or if I just don't want to waste time and money. While different emotions, since the start of my business 5 years ago, I have made three new close friends, non sexual but friends that I do love and spend time, effort and energy on.

[Rose Auxerrois]

I

So why do people do this? The other person is simply not available? They are not single? I will repeat...they are not available? So why get involved?

 

Because the married people make themselves available.

[MissBee]

I never said it wasn't an affair I just said it wasn't an invasion of an unknowing marriage. If one spouse invites another into the marriage that's still an invite. I wasn't even touching on whether or not it's wrong just disagreeing with the word invasion as if the marriage is a solidarity between the spouses because it obviously isn't if one spouse invited someone else in unbeknownst to the other spouse. Invasion would mean the AP wasn't wanted there but they were wanted there by at least one spouse. There are not APs in marriages with two people who don't want to be "invaded".

 

But I think that is the point people are making, the marriage is a solidarity between the two people. One can allow you to be with THEM but not invite you into the marriage itself. One spouse wanting it doesn't count if by nature of the contract, so to speak, two people have to okay it.

 

So let me understand this, if your bf cheats on you tomorrow, it's because you invited this other woman there? She was invited into your relationship? You would not see her being there as an infringement on both of their parts?

[findingnemo]

I am no fan of affairs but I need to ask, how does one spouse having an A lead to an invasion of the M? Invasion? So the OM/OW is invading the M? Maybe the bunny boilers and even then the WS secretly opened the gates of the fort in the middle of the night.

 

Otherwise nobody is invading anything. Yes, the AP is threatening the stability of the M especially if the MP starts considering leaving. A M is a partnership between two people. They both own it. One party decides to give their 50% share to someone else. Contract or no contract, they can and sometimes do. And that 50% is the person him/herself. That's why sometimes I understand people who feel that cheating is deal breaker. A WS has made themselves available by choice. They have done everything they can in order to give something previously promised to their spouse to someone else. Considering what WS' will do in order to see the AP, the way they make themselves available, the way they lie to their family, deny their kids time... The WS has basically given someone else his part of the kingdom. The M for the duration of the A is a complete sham, just that the BS is clueless. Why would the other person need to invade the M? There is no invader. The BS is sleeping with the enemy.

 

MPs are such good liars and so selfish that they actually convince themselves that their spouses are X,Y and Z. The AP may not buy the criticism but the fact that he/she is there means the MP is available at that moment, with a possibility to be available for good. If it wasn't true, there'd be no As.

[2sure]

Becoming a cancer in an unknowing persons life, invited or not, is just such a low thing to do.

[Babolat]

It's ironic that I started this thread out of curiosity though if you read my posts about hanging out with a girl with a bf....

 

About a 5 weeks ago I told her I could not be the other man, she agreed and things went quiet. She said it would be best if we did not see each other as she could not stop thinking about sex when with me. We never had sex though, never even kissed.

 

Things changes this week....we bumped into each other twice last week. Small talk.

 

She texted me to say her and her bf would love to go see the local band her and I went to see together the next time they play. I thought this was odd, or her way of saying I want to be friends with you and I want you to meet my bf. I replied stating I was going to see a band this Saturday, they should come.

 

Saturday she texts me to tell me they are coming.

 

They showed up, she ran up to hug me, I met the bf, nothing like me but a nice guy. He was quiet and di not say much. I tried to be respectful though she was being chatting with me so it was hard. I gave them there space and ended up dancing with my sister.

 

Yesterday morning she texted me to say thanks, and asked what I was doing. Long story short we ended up meeting at the local museum, hung out there for a couple of hours, that turned into lunch, which turned into going out for drinks, which turned into dinner, which turned into going to a quaint spot of the river at 12PM to hang out. I got a little touchy feely with her there, not much more, she teases me with suggestions of sex, though says she is concerned I will not like it with her since she has not been with a lot of men. I was actually taking her home when she said "Let go to the place on the river we went to last time". She even joking asked if I brought condoms once we got to the spot.

 

I drove her home, 2:30AM now, and said goodnight.

 

This morning she texted me for a bit.

 

I asked her last night why she wanted to hang out with me after we both agreed we should not see each other. She said she guessed she need some time to think, that she really likes me. She asked me why I never asked her out sooner (we have know each other for 2+ years as aquaintances). I told her the timing was never right for me...she sighed.

 

When she makes her comments about sex I tell her I can't; that I find myself getting closer to her and I have to pull away because she is not available.

 

However, if this one made a move on me, I think I would because I am wildly attracted to her physically and emotionally. She is my type and then some, all good then some.

 

So, I get it now.

[Babolat]

She is obviously making herself very available to you. Her reasons maybe aren't known to you or even to her but his is what I'm talking about. We are all adults and know when someone is available to us regardless of their status. when I was married other men knew that I was not available because I made that very clear without having to say a word about it. However, when my boyfriend and I met nad he was an MM he pursued me and was obviously "available". I was invited into a relationship wtih him by him no matter that he was married because it was obvious that he was "available" to me. Sometimes a marriage is just a situation that needs to be resolved and not a sacred coupling of two people which is evident when one in the marriage does this and makes themselves available to someone outside of the marriage. I'm not saying it's right or wrong I"m just saying it is and it's very obvious when this is the case.

 

What are you going to do? It sounds' like you are going to pursue it if given the chance? I have no judgment here especially as she isn't even mareried which is the legal contract but just has a boyfriend. What are your feelings and thoughts on being the "other man" in a situation like this or is it as simple as she would break up with him to date you? I am interested to see how this plays out for you and what your plans are.

 

I am not sure really. I have been hanging out with 3-4 other women, no sex, no romance, this ONE has always got to me. I met her 2.5 years ago, one month post separation from my marriage, instant chemistry, though there was no way I was ready to date then.

 

Things moved real fast back in June/July as far as hanging out a lot and expressing our interests in each other. I find her absolutely beautiful; she thinks she is unattractive and said even though I asked her to hang out she never thought it would go anywhere, and never thought a man like me would be interested in her (by that she means attractive, social, likes to go out, etc). She said she thought one dinner and that would bet it as I would not be into her.

 

She mentioned a sold out concert out of town she wants to go to last night. I said lets go. She said her bf would not like us spending the night together. I told her she can work that out. This morning I texted her to tell her I found tickets, she said "BUY THEM!"

 

Yeah, I agree with you, she is available...heck we spent 12 hours together yesterday and she never even looked at her phone. That's the way it was back in June/July. I was in her house last night, zero signs of a 3 year relationship, same as back in June/July. She was the one continuing us hanging out together yesterday..lets go here, lets go there....

 

There were so many times last night our faces were inches apart and I just wanted to start kissing her neck and lips...I am very into her. I didn't though. I think she wants me to.

 

My plan? Play it cool, keep doing my thing, let her come to me for now, don't think about I too much.

Edited August 12, 2013 by Babolat

[Babolat]

when I was married other men knew that I was not available because I made that very clear without having to say a word about it.

 

This comment hit me...thanks!

 

My ex gf loved to go to bars, drink and drink a lot, until 3, 4 5AM. She would spend the night with her male best friend when visiting him out of town and when he came to town and got a hotel. I once found a 4AM text in her phone when she was out with him. Some man saying he enjoyed talking to her, meet me for breakfast. She replied once, "Hey darling, who is this". He replied describing himself as the good looking guy she talked to at the bar and gave her # to. She did not reply; her defense to me was once she knew it was him she did not reply. My reply: you were sitting in a bar, talking to a man who thought you were available and gave him your #. Her reply "most men don't care if you are available or not, they are going to talk to you and pursue you, He would stop asking for my # so I gave it to him". My reply "Not my life partner". If you are sitting in a bar, drunk, making it appear you are available..well....

 

She also loved to post pics of herself on Facebook. Esppecially whe n out with her other sexy hot gfs. Her Orbitors would "Like" and make some flirty comment, then she would Like. I never brought this up with her until post breakup; she still does not get it.

 

So yes, a woman AND a man can make it VERY clear they are not available. I trusted her, she was 125% into me, even texted me all night while at these after hours bars. When I would go with her she made it very clear I was her man, which I liked. My point to her was she was making herself look available; I did not want that in my partner.

 

When I went out with my buddies I did not talk to women, if they talked to me I was cordial, polite, carried a conversation but ALWAYS within minutes found a way to talk about my gf.

Edited August 12, 2013 by Babolat

[janedoe67]

A lot of BS's care quite a lot about that "silly little piece of paper." That is what I just do not get

[ComingInHot]

Babalot,

With some of the rationalizations you've just received, it pretty much opens the door and rolls out the red carpet for you to get it going with Any woman who is M'd, engaged, has a SO. SWEEEET, right?!?

 

So now that, That road block is out of the way, why don't you tell your Mother or Father or the H's and wives that are friends of yours what you're up to & your new "way of thinking" is. Or, OH, just tell this girl's B/F that his G/F is really "available"so no hard feelings, no need to be pissy.

 

Babalot, I have no doubt you are Easy on the eyes. I believe you have a certain charm that attracts people, especially women. Good for you! It sounds like you are ready to get back into a true, open, honest, authentic relationship. Being athletic, handsome & charming will definitely help you do that.

Please for the love of Pete, Don't forget to use your brain (the one on your shoulders*) and decide Up Front, how much drama and emotional wreckage you want Before you choose to move ahead with this "available" woman who is on a 3 year relationship with her B/F.

CIH*

[2sure]

Personal integrity anyone?

 

And I'm no saint, believe me, but also...since youre on the fence and thinking about it...

 

Personal integrity has more to do with the things you don't do than the things you do. You only have to answer to yourself in life, so if you have clear standards of your personal integrity...you can always make choices confidently.

 

It sounds like you Might know this. Beating the struggle with it and sticking to your personal values...is what builds it. It's a process, like everything else.

What kind of man do you want to be? Do you want to answer to yourself with confidence? Then what are your standards.

 

It isn't rocket science, and it isn't about anyone else. It's about you.