Dating while dealing with a deteriorating marriage

[ChooseTruth]

Yup someone else mentioned it, are these activities kept secret from your wife? If so, yeah it's at least an emotional affair....I never recommend lying or hiding big things like this, especially to a spouse. It might smooth things over in the short term, but eventually the bubble will burst in a nasty way.

 

If you want to be free to date as you want then you should wait till final divorce, and then some probably. Not just out of consideration for your wife, but for those you bring into your crazy situation. Read up on rebound relationships.

[JamesM]

I've done my part and am not getting through.

 

Then you have not done your part. Have you listened to her side? If you are not getting through because you do not see results AS YOU WOULD LIKE, could it be that she has different ideas...and may be right?

 

I have things I like to do.

 

Are they different than when you first married?

 

Just as I enjoy the company of men, I enjoy the company of women. My wife is obviously not concerned when I hang out with my guy friends. But when I spend time in the company of women, I don't tell her about it, as she'll probably either take it the wrong way or read into it improperly.

 

Part of the deterioration is the lack of communication. It is also the lack of openness.

 

Would you care if she spent more time with men? How would you feel if she did and never told you?

 

Yeah, my wife would be upset if I spent time with other women and didn't tell her. She would also want to know why them and not her. She would certainly feel that she could spend time with men also.

 

The problem is that this conversation needs to be with her and not only us.

 

My wife has absolutely NO interest in doing things with other couples.

 

Actually, this is about you spending time with other women anyhow. I didn't get that spending time with other couples was the issue. Fact is if you spent time with other couples, then it would be her with women and you with men or mixed. You still wouldn't get to be alone with other "more stimulating" women.

 

Isn't this all about you wanting to spend time alone with other women?

[JamesM]

- My wife has no financial loyalty towards our home and our future

She would say I'm at fault for being stingy.

 

This is an area that you need to work on. I assume you make all of the money?

 

- She never wants to do anything together outside of the house.

She would say she only likes doing things with her girlfriends

 

Why? When you dated, didn't she like spending time with you? What has changed?

 

- She will not engage me on an intellectual level

She would say the things I like to talk about are either boring or too controversial

 

Could be. I like history. My wife does not. She thinks the books I read are "deep." They may be. Yet we communicate about them. Her interests are kinda boring to me. yet for her sake, I try to listen. I learn from her. Funny thing is....she is really quite smart. And much more than me in some areas. Our smarts are just in different areas. I don't debate her much. We disagree on some topics. And yes, I can have some very stimulating convos with other women. But that doesn't mean I want to date them.

 

Find common ground and build from there. Make yourself exciting to her, and she may become exciting to you.

 

- She doesn't care about her appearance

She would probably say it's too much work or too much of a nuissance.

 

Define what you mean about caring for her appearance. Does she not shower? Does she look terrible all day? Remember, you see her at her worst and best. Most other women you see at their best only.

 

- She doesn't care about my happiness

This is about the only one where I haven't gotten a response from her.

 

Honestly with all due respect, I am not hearing that you care about her happiness either. This thread is all about you.

 

- She appears to think that being available for physical intimacy offsets aspects of her behavior that I find unacceptable

She would deny this

 

Some men would be happy with what you have. They would love to have great sex and would bend over backwards to build the emotional connection.

 

- She doesn't care about her health or my health

She cares more about money (e.g. she would rather not carry health insurance because she thinks it's a better financial decision); And she's too lazy to get exercise or eat healthy.

 

Is she overweight? What is her BMI? Are both of you healthy? Could you afford to pay for any health issues? Is the health insurance through work or independent and quite expensive?

 

My wife is overweight (she would agree) and has many health issues. She needs to be motivated to eat healthier and exercise. She cares inwardly about her health but outwardly she has other issues that are more important than a few extra pounds. And exercise can be more painful than helpful. This does not mean she is lazy.

 

Could it be that she views your desire for her health as more about how you love her than because you love her?

 

- She's extremely conservative about her body (e.g. she doesn't like to be sexy)

She would say she doesn't want to look like a whore. Yet I'm not asking her to dress like a whore. Just to dress nicely, as her friends do.

 

DO you want her to show cleavage and wear form fitting clothes? Can you accept that she has a styles of her own and not try to conform her to your own style?

 

Some of this is about her, but it is also about you and your attitude towards her. Fleeing into the arms of another woman won't change you or make you happier until you resolve the issues you have with her.

 

Yes, it is my opinion, but it comes with a couple of decades of marital experience.

[oldshirt]

My gut instinct is telling me that you are fundamentally dissatisfied and frustrated with your marital life with your wife and that you starting to see the cracks in the foundation and realizing that you have some significant discrepancies in your core values and mores.

 

You are basically wanting to have your cake and eat it too. You are wanting the security and comfort of having someone home to talk to at the end of the day and you haven't said anything about sexual dissatisfaction/frustration so I assume she is keeping your tank sufficiently drained so that you aren't climbing the walls with sexual frustration.

 

So what is at issue here is you simply want "more" but she hasn't committed any infractions that would justify divorcing her. You want to keep her around for the comfort and convenience she provides but you no longer feel a sense of passion or intimacy with her due to your lack of compatability in many different areas of your life.

 

You are struggling with trying to find a way to justify interacting and developing relationships with other women to meet your other personal needs. You are trying to reconcile wanting a deeper connection with someone else while not risking losing the one you have with her.

 

You are trying to find a way to "add" other women and other connections to your life without risking losing her. You are basically wanting something of a plural marriage/polyamorous relationship and trying to make it OK in your mind and make it OK with your wife and your mother and her Aunt Petunia in Montana etc etc etc etc.

 

I also think deep down you want to find "the one" before you severe the relationship with your wife. You want guarentees that your next relationship(s) will work before blowing this up and scattering the ashes.

 

So what to do about it? Well first off get the idea of any guarentees and no risks out of your head. That is just not a reality. There are never any guarentees and there will also be an element of risk.

 

I think the biggest risk here though is maintaining the status quo while it is clear that there is a downward trend taking place here. Something is going to have to give. There is going to have to be an 'ah hah!' moment at some point.

 

That could come in the form of an affair or come in the form of a major disconnect where all interaction and/or sexuality dries up and blows away, or one of you simply packs your bags and walks.

 

You are going to have to find a way to be heard and to make your dissatisfaction and your discontent heard. That can be in the form of making arraingments with a marital counselor and basically telling her she has to go and then explaining to her in detail with the counselor of your discontent and need for affirmative action.

 

Another option is to be very matter of fact and ask for the open marriage and to pursue a harem of sorts where different needs are being met by different women. If you are serious enough, a light may go off in her head and that may motivate her to take the issues seriously...or it may motivate her to simply leave.

 

The final option is to basically raise the skull and crossbones up the flagpole and declare war. Take off the wedding ring, come and go as you please without telling her what you are doing and where you are, sign up for some dating websites and leave the computer screen up, see a lawyer and start developing divorce and after-divorce plans and finally drawing up actual papers and presenting them to her but don't file until you get a clear indication from her whether she is in or out.

[regdob]

What do you want to do? Forget what she wants because obviously she doesn't care about your wants. Do you want to divorce?

I'm not yet interested in getting a divorce.

 

I look at it kind of like a job. I'm happy with the job I've got, but if a better one comes along, I'll move. But I'm not going to quit my job without another one lined up.

[carhill]

You certainly have a lot of company in that perspective, IME, and the path of life will indicate whether or not that perspective holds truth for you in the long run. IME, no rewards either way, without. Within, potentially a few. Up to you what value you place on the path.

[regdob]

First response is an obvious one as already stated:

 

Unless you ask your wife and get her okay, then any relationship with a woman will be cheating. So simple....ask your wife if she cares if you have friendships with women in these groups.

She hasn't explicitly said it's OK, nor has she explicitly said it isn't OK. However, there have been discussions where I ask her to join me on an outing and she says no. I then ask how she'll feel if I go with someone else, possibly a woman and she responds by saying she'll go with a man to some activity (e.g. movie or shopping).

 

The question is: do you want more than a simple intellectual friendship with them? Or is this simply a ploy to move into a full blown sexual and emotional relationship?

YES and NO to those two questions. My wife doesn't like going out and doing fun things. I enjoy doing fun things with women - whether there is sex involved or not. I like being with people who are having fun and I enjoy the company of women just as I enjoy the company of men.

 

If your marriage is so boring and is deteriorating and you do not have children and she doesn't want them, then why do you not move on?

I look at it kind of like a job. I'm happy with the job I've got, but if a better one comes along, I'll move. But I'm not going to quit my job without another one lined up.

 

Please understand that I do understand your situation to a degree. Having over 20 years of marriage under my belt and having many issues over the years that could have been a reason to end it or start an affair, I still say that developing a friendship with any woman (as exciting as it sounds) without your wife's permission would be detrimental to your marriage and (believe it or not) your health. It will become a relationship that breakups your marriage.

I can easily distinguish between my marriage and the social or business female acquaintances I have. The casual female friendships I have aren't serious enough to the point where they would jeopardize my marriage. I just don't pursue them in the manner I would if I were single - largely out of respect for my wife.

 

Yes, you need her permission as you did state in a vow that you would be faithful in good and bad times. These are the bad, and some would say they are not so bad. While you may be looking for our permission to begin "dating" (which is your word for an outside relationship pure and simple), it is not us that needs to okay this.

I'm the one who is ultimately going to determine what would constitute crossing the line. I can only control what I do. I can't control what my casual female friends do. If one begins to show an interest in me, then I'll cross that bridge when I get to it.

 

Now as one who lived in a sexless marriage for many years and as one who has solved some of the issues (but not all), I would advise you to get her permission or research how to bring her back to the woman she was.

I've already tried this and nothing short of liquidating my entire retirement and letting her spend it as she chooses will work.

 

She may not be as candid with you as you think. She may find you less of the man she married. She may find that the intellectual stimulation that you crave is not the same as it was in t he past. Marriage is about growing together. Trust me...it ain't easy. But believe you me, it IS rewarding.

She does not crave intellectual stimulation.

 

THREE years and you are already giving up because SHE doesn't meet YOUR needs? Is that what your promise means? Did you think back then that you would renege so easily on your word?

In my value system, if my wife is going to be a total deadbeat when it comes to doing fun things (as long as it is not for medical reasons), then that is a green light to do fun things with others - regardless of whether they're male or female.

 

The problem is...your value system is not what you stated to your wife if you are willing to invest your emotions into another female relationship instead of developing the one you have. This is not about values but about honor and trust and commitment. You said you would and are now changing your mind because she isn't fulfilling your needs. Marriage should go much deeper than that.

Somehow you must have read into this a little deeper than I'd expect. I don't have a girlfriend on the side. I'm merely looking for ideas of how to go about finding women to do fun things with while I'm married. Why do I ask? Some women may not wish to do things with a married man. Some may not be bothered by it. Some may be bothered if I do something with them but don't tell them I'm married.

 

If you add another relationship without telling her and as a way to fulfill the needs you feel she is not, then you will make it your primary one.

 

Sexless marriage? Boy, I think that is a good analogy! I can relate. Let me put it to you. If you thought your sex was great as you stated and she did not but never told you or never stated that she had a need that was hungry, then how would you feel if she went and got sex with another man? Perhaps she has tried in her mind but she doesn't feel you listen? Or you don't satisfy her the way she wants to be pleasured? Your marriage is still the primary relationship in her mind as you fulfill her emotional needs, but this man fulfills her physical needs.

 

What would you do? How would you feel?

If I didn't fulfill her needs for something other than a medical reason, then I would understand if she pursued other men. There are some benign activities she enjoys which I find outrageously boring and uninteresting. I don't engage in these activities. Sometimes she goes with male friends. I'm OK with that.

 

In fact, how would you feel if she asked you if she could get sex elsewhere if she felt you were awful in bed?

If I had refused to seek medical treatment, then I'd understand. She's refusing to go to counseling - individual or marital. She refuses to see a doctor for what is likely depression.

 

No, I did not take my wife's rejections as an implied okay to get sex elsewhere. And even when she in her emotional distraught state said that I may need to get it elsewhere, I did not run out and start an affair. I knew that such an action would not truly fulfill my needs.

My wife has said in what was probably an emotional distraught state that I am free to go out and do fun things with others.

 

If you choose to start "dating" as you call it because you are getting the three year itch without getting her permission, then save yourself and her much pain by separating.

Sometimes life with my wife is like constantly going between being separated and being together.

 

My thoughts are not meant to make you mad. My comments are from someone who totally understands the feeling especially if you replace the need with a lack of sex. I just know that she will be as upset with you for investing your emotions into another woman as you would be if she invested her physical desires in the bed of another man.

From my wife's perspective, whether or not I invest my emotions into another woman is immaterial. It's what she perceives that matters.

 

To finish, I had someone tell me that if you are going to throw that away anyhow, then why not try to fix it first. What do you have to lose besides some time? So, if you feel that the marriage is deteriorating, then why not try to rebuild it before leaving it? Personally, I can truly tell you that it is rewarding. I can also tell you that ANY marriage will require the same commitment as all marriages go through rough times.

 

Your wife can change. So can you. She needs some motivation. Why don't you try to provide some?

I've tried to fix things, and it's not going to get better than it is. I thought by going out and constantly doing things on my own would be a wake up call to her, but it hasn't had any effect.

[Mr. Lucky]

Are you asking specifically whether platonic friendships with members of the opposite sex without your spouse's knowledge or approval are OK?

 

My answer would be "no"...

 

Mr. Lucky

[JamesM]

Questions: Is this the first marriage for both of you? How old are each of you?

 

She hasn't explicitly said it's OK, nor has she explicitly said it isn't OK. However, there have been discussions where I ask her to join me on an outing and she says no. I then ask how she'll feel if I go with someone else, possibly a woman and she responds by saying she'll go with a man to some activity (e.g. movie or shopping).

 

This means she hasn't said yes. And if she says she will go with a man, then say okay, and you pick a woman for a date.

 

 

YES and NO to those two questions. My wife doesn't like going out and doing fun things. I enjoy doing fun things with women - whether there is sex involved or not. I like being with people who are having fun and I enjoy the company of women just as I enjoy the company of men.

 

I doubt it is quite true. If so, then begin scheduling more activities with men. Find a friend who can go with you to these places where your wife won't go.

 

 

I look at it kind of like a job. I'm happy with the job I've got, but if a better one comes along, I'll move. But I'm not going to quit my job without another one lined up.

 

So, you kinda want to date women with the possibility of dropping your wife and hooking up with one of them?

 

 

I can easily distinguish between my marriage and the social or business female acquaintances I have. The casual female friendships I have aren't serious enough to the point where they would jeopardize my marriage. I just don't pursue them in the manner I would if I were single - largely out of respect for my wife.

 

Understood. But when we married folks cross over and make friends with the opposite sex...especially when in an unhappy marriage, we are flirting with adultery.

 

Honestly, I never go out alone with female acquaintances.

 

 

I'm the one who is ultimately going to determine what would constitute crossing the line. I can only control what I do. I can't control what my casual female friends do. If one begins to show an interest in me, then I'll cross that bridge when I get to it.

 

I believe in prevention. I think it would be better not to put myself on that bridge, because I know that I could easily jump off that bridge and cause irreversible damage to my marriage.

 

 

I've already tried this and nothing short of liquidating my entire retirement and letting her spend it as she chooses will work.

 

I find it hard to believe that all your wife wants from you is your money.

 

 

She does not crave intellectual stimulation.

 

How do you define intellectual stimulation? Debates? Discussions...about what?

 

 

In my value system, if my wife is going to be a total deadbeat when it comes to doing fun things (as long as it is not for medical reasons), then that is a green light to do fun things with others - regardless of whether they're male or female.

 

One doesn't simply make a value system as one wants it when one commits to someone else. Then redefining what commitment means after making it is wrong on many levels.

 

Somehow you must have read into this a little deeper than I'd expect. I don't have a girlfriend on the side. I'm merely looking for ideas of how to go about finding women to do fun things with while I'm married.

 

But seriously, you kinda want a girlfriend on the side?

 

Why do I ask? Some women may not wish to do things with a married man. Some may not be bothered by it. Some may be bothered if I do something with them but don't tell them I'm married.

 

Very true. Many women believe that going out with you without your wife's permission is cheating. And those that will go out with you simply ignore that it is cheating.

 

Get your wife's permission to redefine your commitment to her and you are free and clear.

 

If I didn't fulfill her needs for something other than a medical reason, then I would understand if she pursued other men. There are some benign activities she enjoys which I find outrageously boring and uninteresting. I don't engage in these activities. Sometimes she goes with male friends. I'm OK with that.

 

And that is because you know about it. She may feel the same but it is only fair that she can decide for herself.

 

 

If I had refused to seek medical treatment, then I'd understand. She's refusing to go to counseling - individual or marital. She refuses to see a doctor for what is likely depression.

 

That does NOT give you the right to break YOUR promise EVEN if she is breaking hers....which this doesn't indicate that she is. She simply doesn't see the problem that you do for whatever reason.

 

My wife has said in what was probably an emotional distraught state that I am free to go out and do fun things with others.

 

Then simply say, "Remember when you said that I could go out with others for fun? Well, I am going with "Jane" to (fill in the blank) Friday night."

 

 

Sometimes life with my wife is like constantly going between being separated and being together.

 

If she won't get counseling, then perhaps you can start the ball rolling by showing her that you care about your marriage. You get individual counseling.

 

From my wife's perspective, whether or not I invest my emotions into another woman is immaterial. It's what she perceives that matters.

 

True for all of us. Our perception is our reality. You perceive that it is okay to redefine your value system. I doubt she would agree. The reality is separate from both of your perceptions and may or may not agree with either of you.

 

 

I've tried to fix things, and it's not going to get better than it is. I thought by going out and constantly doing things on my own would be a wake up call to her, but it hasn't had any effect.

 

IMO you have not tried the right things or tried long enough. IMO you should either begin thinking of freeing her to find someone who better matches her, or begin building a strong relationship with her despite the differences.

[Mr. Lucky]

IMO you should either begin thinking of freeing her to find someone who better matches her, or begin building a strong relationship with her despite the differences.

Agreed. And either one of those outcomes have many more positive implications for both of you than this "one foot in, one foot out" approach you're currently pursuing...

 

Mr. Lucky