Dating while dealing with a deteriorating marriage

[regdob]

Hi folks! I'm new to this forum and wish to get some feedback on the situation I'm in.

 

I'm in a crumbling and deteriorating marriage. I've been married about 3 years.

- My wife has no financial loyalty towards our home and our future

- She never wants to do anything together outside of the house.

- She will not engage me on an intellectual level

- She doesn't care about her appearance

- She doesn't care about my happiness

- She appears to think that being available for physical intimacy offsets aspects of her behavior that I find unacceptable

- She doesn't care about her health or my health

- She's extremely conservative about her body (e.g. she doesn't like to be sexy)

 

We used to do a lot of fun things together away from the home. But whenever I want for us to do something fun away from the home, she comes up with an excuse to not do it. I have a tremendous passion for certain outdoor activities and wish she would join me - but she never does. If there is one saving grace, it's that she doesn't complain if I go off and do these things on my own and she clearly trusts me. But I find I have to do these activities either alone or with a male friend.

 

I should note that my wife clearly identifies with us as a couple. For example, she is proud to have my last name, keeps lots of photos of us together around for others to view, values time spent together at home etc.

 

I would ideally like things with my wife to get better. But I don't want to divorce her just yet.

 

I've recently become active with an interest group which happens to have some single people as part of its membership. All of the women in the group are more intellectually stimulating than my wife; some are equally - if not more - attractive than my wife and most enjoy many of the outdoors activities I wish my wife would do with me.

 

While I don't see anything wrong with going on an innocent & platonic outing with another woman, others may view it differently. Additionally, some of the people in this interest group know I'm married and I'm thinking that may have an impact on a woman's desire to do something with me.

 

I'd like to get the thoughts of others in here.

 

Thanks! :-)

[Lauriebell82]

If you want to work things out with your wife then having an affair (its not dating!) is a terrible idea. If you want to seperate and pursue these single women then go for it.

 

And for what its worth...all these things about your wife are fixable. Is she open to that? And I am sure you arent perfect either so why not take a look at what you are doing to contribute to your marital problems.

[jphcbpa]

1) don't have kids with your wife

 

2) what is your real motivation for the single women in this group?

 

3) get some MC to get this on the table ASAP

[regdob]

If you want to work things out with your wife then having an affair (its not dating!) is a terrible idea. If you want to seperate and pursue these single women then go for it.

 

And for what its worth...all these things about your wife are fixable. Is she open to that? And I am sure you arent perfect either so why not take a look at what you are doing to contribute to your marital problems.

I am not looking to have an affair. (I can see how that could be inferred, as I used the term 'dating'). There are things I enjoy doing which my wife has no interest in doing. Many of these things I end up doing by myself and other things I do with male friends. I have met many women who would be just as fun to do some of these things with as my male friends. As I said, I don't see anything inherently wrong with it. But there appear to be two issues/concerns: 1) should my wife learn I'm on a platonic outing with a female friend, she likely won't believe me if I explain it's platonic; 2) these women who would be fun to do things with either know I'm married or know someone who knows I'm married - meaning they might see a problem with me asking them to do something together.

 

I believe the things about my wife are fixable. But she is too stubborn and hard-headed to want to fix any of them. She's also in denial that they are even problems.

 

I've already taken a long & hard look at myself and am certain that there's nothing within reason that I can do to fix things. It's as if she thinks I've got this bottomless pit of money which I'm not giving her access to - when I'm trying to protect the assets we have.

[pteromom]

aspects of her behavior that I find unacceptable

 

What does this MEAN? Sounds judgy and controlling.

 

Anyway, if you only want something platonic so you can do outdoor activities with someone, a man will be fine for that. It doesn't have to be an attractive single woman.

[setsenia]

I know how you feel OP. I often feel like my husband and I are only staying together right now for financial reasons. I am so angry and resentful for things he has done and bad decisions he has made. He doesn't help with anything, (figuring out a budget, chores etc). I am also going out more and leaving myself open to meeting other people. Sometimes I feel that if we separated, I'll never find someone else. I also remember all the good times, but it doesn't feel as if it will change anytime soon. I feel like he brings me down and unnecessary drama into my life. I feel like if you really love someone, you would do your best to help with the issue, not become a part of it. It just seems like he has a poor-me attitude about everything and has little motivation to change or work on things.

 

Have you talked to your W about this? Is she willing to work on these issues?

[regdob]

1) don't have kids with your wife

 

2) what is your real motivation for the single women in this group?

 

3) get some MC to get this on the table ASAP

To address your response:

 

1) My wife has other priorities that are higher than having children. Part of it is that she only wants to have children if it isn't going to cost us any money. (that's an altogether unrelated issue).

 

2) There are women I meet through several different work & professional organizations, interest groups and hobbies which I'm involved with. Through each of these, I end up in contact with intellectually stimulating single and married women all the time. My relationship with my wife is full of physical intimacy, but there is little or no intellectual stimulation. In a nutshell, it's a boring relationship. My most immediate motivation is to keep myself from being limited to doing activities I enjoy with just myself or with men. Many of my male friends are married and are seldom available to do "single" type activities. Some of my single friends are OK to hang out with and some not.

 

3) My wife would rather be put to death than go to marriage counseling.

[setsenia]

To address your response:

 

1) My wife has other priorities that are higher than having children. Part of it is that she only wants to have children if it isn't going to cost us any money. (that's an altogether unrelated issue).

 

2) There are women I meet through several different work & professional organizations, interest groups and hobbies which I'm involved with. Through each of these, I end up in contact with intellectually stimulating single and married women all the time. My relationship with my wife is full of physical intimacy, but there is little or no intellectual stimulation. In a nutshell, it's a boring relationship. My most immediate motivation is to keep myself from being limited to doing activities I enjoy with just myself or with men. Many of my male friends are married and are seldom available to do "single" type activities. Some of my single friends are OK to hang out with and some not.

 

3) My wife would rather be put to death than go to marriage counseling.

 

I can definitely understand your need for intellectual stimulation. My husband hardly talks and when he does, it's mostly me talking.

[regdob]

What does this MEAN? Sounds judgy and controlling.

I don't need to defend myself. I'm sure others would also find such behavior unacceptable.

 

Anyway, if you only want something platonic so you can do outdoor activities with someone, a man will be fine for that. It doesn't have to be an attractive single woman.

That might be true. And I'm not going into dicey territory if I go on one of these activities with a male friend. But the field of friends is greatly limited if only men are considered. The more and more I come in contact with interesting women, the more I wish to consider them as potential companions for any activities I enjoy. I'm not necessarily talking about dating type things like going out for dinner, going away for a weekend, going to the opera, etc. I'm talking about things that platonic opposite sex folks do together all the time - like running, bicycling, snow skiing, surfing, canoeing, rock climbing.

[stillafool]

If you want to take other women to your outdoor activities I see no problem with it. Just get your wife's permission first so there will not be an issue later. Talk to your wife about it. No one here can tell you what to do.

[regdob]

I know how you feel OP. I often feel like my husband and I are only staying together right now for financial reasons. I am so angry and resentful for things he has done and bad decisions he has made. He doesn't help with anything, (figuring out a budget, chores etc). I am also going out more and leaving myself open to meeting other people. Sometimes I feel that if we separated, I'll never find someone else. I also remember all the good times, but it doesn't feel as if it will change anytime soon. I feel like he brings me down and unnecessary drama into my life. I feel like if you really love someone, you would do your best to help with the issue, not become a part of it. It just seems like he has a poor-me attitude about everything and has little motivation to change or work on things.

 

Have you talked to your W about this? Is she willing to work on these issues?

Thank you for your response. At least I know my situation isn't unique. Much of what you said echoes my feelings.

 

Is it right to stay with someone because you're afraid you won't find someone else? I would say yes - especially if being with that someone is less evil than being with no one. But what if one's SO doesn't meet their needs in other areas - such as doing activities together or engaging in intellectual discussions?

[setsenia]

Thank you for your response. At least I know my situation isn't unique. Much of what you said echoes my feelings.

 

Is it right to stay with someone because you're afraid you won't find someone else? I would say yes - especially if being with that someone is less evil than being with no one. But what if one's SO doesn't meet their needs in other areas - such as doing activities together or engaging in intellectual discussions?

 

Good point. I guess when you're at the point where you are happier without them than with them is when you know you need a divorce. I am nearly at this point. We're constantly fighting when we're together and we hardly see one another.

[MidwestUSA]

A marriage that is deteriorating at the three year mark. You 'ideally' would like to work on your marriage. Activities 'platonically' that involve other women.

 

You see where this is going? You know what will eventually happen if you engage in these activities?

 

 

Your choices are to: work on your marriage. Go forth with your plan with your wife's blessing (but get her to agree to an open marriage before giving in to the temptations that will present).

 

 

NO, it is not better to stay with someone just because you are afraid of never finding someone else. Exactly what did your wife marry you for, I'm curious? Status? Money? Genetics (aka sperm bank)? Not caring about appearances, health or happiness are definitely NOT part of the compromise that is marriage. If I can ask, what would your wife's input on these points be if she could come here and tell us? I sense there is more to the story, and we're getting half of it.

 

 

Not trying to be harsh, just trying to understand.

[carhill]

Dating while dealing with a deteriorating marriage

 

While I don't see anything wrong with going on an innocent & platonic outing with another woman

 

Sounds like you have a choice to make. Which is it? Dating is not having an innocent and platonic outing with another woman.

 

If you like doing the latter, do it with your male friend's wives; my most common activity with male friend's wives is cooking; secondarily going to estate and yard sales. Nice platonic activities.

 

Good luck.

[Sunlight72]

Be a man. Either be fully committed to being married, or get divorced.

 

Being married means the primary relationship in your life (at All Times) is your marriage.

 

If you are scheming to do things with people That You Know will upset your wife, make your wife feel suspicious and likely feel betrayed, then you are absolutely Not putting in your best effort at being a good husband. You are undermining her trust and undermining your marriage.

 

I realize that three years of marriage can seem like a long time, but brother, it is not. If you really pledged yourself to a lifetime with your wife on your wedding day, then you need to get real and pour as much energy into self-improvement and relationship-building with your wife as you are putting into all other areas of your life combined - or more, if that is what it takes.

 

Don't cheap out on yourself this early in a lifetime commitment.

 

If you really are just looking for more friends to do things with platonically, and don't feel you can add guy friends to fill your roster (which I don't believe if you really took this issue seriously) I would suggest you Only do these activities with both the husband and wife of a couple. And Definitely Invite Your Wife - if your motives are truly honest then your wife should be welcome if she would like to come also, which would be a good first step in re-building your marriage.

 

Best Wishes, truly,

Sunlight

[regdob]

A marriage that is deteriorating at the three year mark. You 'ideally' would like to work on your marriage. Activities 'platonically' that involve other women.

 

You see where this is going? You know what will eventually happen if you engage in these activities?

I don't know.

 

Your choices are to: work on your marriage.

I've tried that, but my wife is content with things the way they are. She seems unconcerned that I'm not very happy with the way things are going.

 

Go forth with your plan with your wife's blessing (but get her to agree to an open marriage before giving in to the temptations that will present).

Where do you draw the line on the type of outing which would constitute 'open marriage'? A business lunch with a professional acquaintance? Playing tennis after work with a colleague? Going running with a colleague? Joining a female colleague for Toastmasters? None of these involve sleeping with someone, nor do they involve any physical contact - so I don't see any harm.

 

NO, it is not better to stay with someone just because you are afraid of never finding someone else.

I disagree with this as a blanket statement. Each person has to evaluate their situation on its own merits.

 

Exactly what did your wife marry you for, I'm curious? Status? Money? Genetics (aka sperm bank)? Not caring about appearances, health or happiness are definitely NOT part of the compromise that is marriage. If I can ask, what would your wife's input on these points be if she could come here and tell us? I sense there is more to the story, and we're getting half of it.

Good you asked. Here is what she'd likely say:

- My wife has no financial loyalty towards our home and our future

She would say I'm at fault for being stingy.

 

- She never wants to do anything together outside of the house.

She would say she only likes doing things with her girlfriends

 

- She will not engage me on an intellectual level

She would say the things I like to talk about are either boring or too controversial

 

- She doesn't care about her appearance

She would probably say it's too much work or too much of a nuissance.

 

- She doesn't care about my happiness

This is about the only one where I haven't gotten a response from her.

 

- She appears to think that being available for physical intimacy offsets aspects of her behavior that I find unacceptable

She would deny this

 

- She doesn't care about her health or my health

She cares more about money (e.g. she would rather not carry health insurance because she thinks it's a better financial decision); And she's too lazy to get exercise or eat healthy.

 

- She's extremely conservative about her body (e.g. she doesn't like to be sexy)

She would say she doesn't want to look like a whore. Yet I'm not asking her to dress like a whore. Just to dress nicely, as her friends do.

[MidwestUSA]

If all you are saying about your wife is true, well, that's mind blowing, I gotta say. Does she have issues? Medical, psychological? Physical disability, depression, bipolar disorder, anything? Is she educated? Does she work outside the home? I don't see mention of any children. How could you think you could have children without them costing you money? That's just weird, for lack of a better word. She sounds unrealistic.

[HokeyReligions]

YOU go to marriage counseling. you don't require her to be there. Talk to a professional. Get some real life perspective for yourself.

 

You will find more help this way than an internet forum or trying to figure it out yourself.

 

You don't have to tell her you are going to counseling yourself, until or unless, you are ready to approach her directly.

 

Many years ago I did this. I went to the EAP through my company and from there found a counselor to help me find perspective. Then I went to my husband and told him. I said our marriage was in trouble and that I wanted (I did not say 'needed') his help to save the marriage. I told him that was my primary goal. I gave him a couple of days to think about it (only fair as I'd been thinking on this for a while) and he decided on counseling too. I actually did not expect him too. If I had answered for him, as you answered for your wife in an earlier post, I would have said he would choose divorce and never go to counseling.

 

He also did this to me at another time we were having problems. I didn't think the problems were as serious as they were, but he did. He did not come to me until he had gained some new perspective and had some clear-cut goals in mind. He also gave me time to think about everything.

 

We've been married 27 years and are very happy. We do things apart, and together. That's us. You may conclude that its time to end your marriage. If you do, with counseling and input from your wife, the end of the marriage may not be as devastating.

[oldshirt]

 

1) My wife has other priorities that are higher than having children. Part of it is that she only wants to have children if it isn't going to cost us any money. (that's an altogether unrelated issue).

 

 

I'm surprised no one else has mentioned this topic.

 

Do YOU want to have children?

 

To only agree to have children as long as it doesn't cost money is quite simply the most ludicrous, unrealistic thing I have ever heard in my life. To say that she doesn't want kids if they'll cost money is essentially saying she does not want children.

 

Do you?

 

Even the Catholic church will grant an annulment if one of the parties denies children to the other.

 

If you want children and a traditional family life then this is a done deal. Find a good divorce lawyer and begin the process of a fair and amicable divorce first thing Monday morning.

 

There will be periods of doubt, sadness, mourning, nostalgia and fear as well as feelings of hope, freedom and the ability to determine your own happiness and well being.

[syz]

If you want to work things out with your wife then having an affair (its not dating!) is a terrible idea. If you want to seperate and pursue these single women then go for it.

 

And for what its worth...all these things about your wife are fixable. Is she open to that? And I am sure you arent perfect either so why not take a look at what you are doing to contribute to your marital problems.

 

 

I totally agree with this. Passionate Marriage by David Schnarch may be of some help to you.

[regdob]

YOU go to marriage counseling. you don't require her to be there. Talk to a professional. Get some real life perspective for yourself.

I've already been to a counselor. The counselor is unable to do anything more for me. But the general sense I get from the counselor is that I have to be comfortable with what I do and it should fit into my value system.

 

You will find more help this way than an internet forum or trying to figure it out yourself.

 

You don't have to tell her you are going to counseling yourself, until or unless, you are ready to approach her directly.

She doesn't care if I'm going to counseling.

 

Many years ago I did this. I went to the EAP through my company and from there found a counselor to help me find perspective. Then I went to my husband and told him. I said our marriage was in trouble and that I wanted (I did not say 'needed') his help to save the marriage. I told him that was my primary goal. I gave him a couple of days to think about it (only fair as I'd been thinking on this for a while) and he decided on counseling too. I actually did not expect him too. If I had answered for him, as you answered for your wife in an earlier post, I would have said he would choose divorce and never go to counseling.

I've told my wife our marriage is in trouble and she doesn't seem to care.

 

He also did this to me at another time we were having problems. I didn't think the problems were as serious as they were, but he did. He did not come to me until he had gained some new perspective and had some clear-cut goals in mind. He also gave me time to think about everything.

 

We've been married 27 years and are very happy. We do things apart, and together. That's us. You may conclude that its time to end your marriage. If you do, with counseling and input from your wife, the end of the marriage may not be as devastating.

My wife doesn't want to end the marriage. She's said she does, but her actions indicate she wants to stay in the marriage - even if it means very little time together.

[regdob]

I'm surprised no one else has mentioned this topic.

 

Do YOU want to have children?

Yes, but not with someone who won't show commitment ahead of time towards having children. Do I believe it's right to marry someone strictly so you can have children? NO. You marry someone to be together and the children are a by-product of that.

 

To only agree to have children as long as it doesn't cost money is quite simply the most ludicrous, unrealistic thing I have ever heard in my life. To say that she doesn't want kids if they'll cost money is essentially saying she does not want children.

That's precisely how I interpret it. But she says I'm the guilty party and constantly accuses me of not wanting to have children. I've told her on countless occasions what she needs to do before I'll consider having children with her and she does little or none of it.

 

Do you?

Do I what?

 

Even the Catholic church will grant an annulment if one of the parties denies children to the other.

That's according to church laws. Unfortunately, where I live, there is separation of church and state - and church laws hold no weight.

 

If you want children and a traditional family life then this is a done deal. Find a good divorce lawyer and begin the process of a fair and amicable divorce first thing Monday morning.

I didn't get married to have children. Nor do I wish to have children with my wife given her current values. But I'm not interested in divorcing her yet.

 

There will be periods of doubt, sadness, mourning, nostalgia and fear as well as feelings of hope, freedom and the ability to determine your own happiness and well being.

While I love my wife and enjoy much of the time we spend together, her values are all messed up, and she never wants to do anything interesting together.

[stillafool]

 

My wife doesn't want to end the marriage. She's said she does, but her actions indicate she wants to stay in the marriage - even if it means very little time together.

 

 

What do you want to do? Forget what she wants because obviously she doesn't care about your wants. Do you want to divorce?

[regdob]

Be a man. Either be fully committed to being married, or get divorced.

In my value system, one doesn't always need to put all his eggs in one basket. You and I have different value systems.

 

Being married means the primary relationship in your life (at All Times) is your marriage.

It is the primary relationship. But it doesn't fulfill all my needs. Imagine having a wife who never wanted to have sex. But she didn't explicitly say it was OK for you to go out and have sex with other women. Would you take her lack of a 'YES' to mean a 'NO' or would you take it as the absence of a 'NO' - or rather a 'YES'?

 

If you are scheming to do things with people That You Know will upset your wife, make your wife feel suspicious and likely feel betrayed, then you are absolutely Not putting in your best effort at being a good husband. You are undermining her trust and undermining your marriage.

I've done my part and am not getting through. I have things I like to do. Just as I enjoy the company of men, I enjoy the company of women. My wife is obviously not concerned when I hang out with my guy friends. But when I spend time in the company of women, I don't tell her about it, as she'll probably either take it the wrong way or read into it improperly.

 

I realize that three years of marriage can seem like a long time, but brother, it is not. If you really pledged yourself to a lifetime with your wife on your wedding day, then you need to get real and pour as much energy into self-improvement and relationship-building with your wife as you are putting into all other areas of your life combined - or more, if that is what it takes.

 

Don't cheap out on yourself this early in a lifetime commitment.

 

If you really are just looking for more friends to do things with platonically, and don't feel you can add guy friends to fill your roster (which I don't believe if you really took this issue seriously) I would suggest you Only do these activities with both the husband and wife of a couple. And Definitely Invite Your Wife - if your motives are truly honest then your wife should be welcome if she would like to come also, which would be a good first step in re-building your marriage.

My wife has absolutely NO interest in doing things with other couples.

[JamesM]

First response is an obvious one as already stated:

 

Unless you ask your wife and get her okay, then any relationship with a woman will be cheating. So simple....ask your wife if she cares if you have friendships with women in these groups.

 

The question is: do you want more than a simple intellectual friendship with them? Or is this simply a ploy to move into a full blown sexual and emotional relationship?

 

If your marriage is so boring and is deteriorating and you do not have children and she doesn't want them, then why do you not move on?

 

Please understand that I do understand your situation to a degree. Having over 20 years of marriage under my belt and having many issues over the years that could have been a reason to end it or start an affair, I still say that developing a friendship with any woman (as exciting as it sounds) without your wife's permission would be detrimental to your marriage and (believe it or not) your health. It will become a relationship that breakups your marriage.

 

Yes, you need her permission as you did state in a vow that you would be faithful in good and bad times. These are the bad, and some would say they are not so bad. While you may be looking for our permission to begin "dating" (which is your word for an outside relationship pure and simple), it is not us that needs to okay this.

 

Now as one who lived in a sexless marriage for many years and as one who has solved some of the issues (but not all), I would advise you to get her permission or research how to bring her back to the woman she was. She may not be as candid with you as you think. She may find you less of the man she married. She may find that the intellectual stimulation that you crave is not the same as it was in t he past. Marriage is about growing together. Trust me...it ain't easy. But believe you me, it IS rewarding.

 

THREE years and you are already giving up because SHE doesn't meet YOUR needs? Is that what your promise means? Did you think back then that you would renege so easily on your word?

 

In my value system, one doesn't always need to put all his eggs in one basket. You and I have different value systems.

 

The problem is...your value system is not what you stated to your wife if you are willing to invest your emotions into another female relationship instead of developing the one you have. This is not about values but about honor and trust and commitment. You said you would and are now changing your mind because she isn't fulfilling your needs. Marriage should go much deeper than that.

 

It is the primary relationship. But it doesn't fulfill all my needs. Imagine having a wife who never wanted to have sex. But she didn't explicitly say it was OK for you to go out and have sex with other women. Would you take her lack of a 'YES' to mean a 'NO' or would you take it as the absence of a 'NO' - or rather a 'YES'?

 

If you add another relationship without telling her and as a way to fulfill the needs you feel she is not, then you will make it your primary one.

 

Sexless marriage? Boy, I think that is a good analogy! I can relate. Let me put it to you. If you thought your sex was great as you stated and she did not but never told you or never stated that she had a need that was hungry, then how would you feel if she went and got sex with another man? Perhaps she has tried in her mind but she doesn't feel you listen? Or you don't satisfy her the way she wants to be pleasured? Your marriage is still the primary relationship in her mind as you fulfill her emotional needs, but this man fulfills her physical needs.

 

What would you do? How would you feel?

 

In fact, how would you feel if she asked you if she could get sex elsewhere if she felt you were awful in bed?

 

No, I did not take my wife's rejections as an implied okay to get sex elsewhere. And even when she in her emotional distraught state said that I may need to get it elsewhere, I did not run out and start an affair. I knew that such an action would not truly fulfill my needs.

 

If you choose to start "dating" as you call it because you are getting the three year itch without getting her permission, then save yourself and her much pain by separating.

 

My thoughts are not meant to make you mad. My comments are from someone who totally understands the feeling especially if you replace the need with a lack of sex. I just know that she will be as upset with you for investing your emotions into another woman as you would be if she invested her physical desires in the bed of another man.

 

To finish, I had someone tell me that if you are going to throw that away anyhow, then why not try to fix it first. What do you have to lose besides some time? So, if you feel that the marriage is deteriorating, then why not try to rebuild it before leaving it? Personally, I can truly tell you that it is rewarding. I can also tell you that ANY marriage will require the same commitment as all marriages go through rough times.

 

Your wife can change. So can you. She needs some motivation. Why don't you try to provide some?

 

Before you say that you have already tried and nothing has changed, then let me say that three years isn't long enough especially since you haven't had a bad marriage for three years. Methinks the pasture seems greener and hence the lack of desire to water your own. Yet your own pasture with a little care may provide a much greater harvest of fruit.