Are PUA's really sociopaths in training??

[RedRobin]

This is a serious question... I realize there is another thread (currently closed) on this topic...

 

However, when I read some of the tactics used by so-called PUAs, what I really feel is an attempt to manipulate, harm, and use women just for fun.

 

I don't see any redeeming value to it whatsoever. I've read some of the books on it, and frankly, the criticism weighed against me (by both men AND women) regarding my 'massive wall of tests'

 

... are really designed to weed out manipulative men and liars who whose goal isn't solely to get me to sleep with them (big deal)... but who will do just about anything to harm me emotionally in order to get an ego fix.

 

I see way too much of this in the world.

 

Some of the posts I read in the other thread were downright scary in their calculated attempts to do what, exactly? I really don't know. It feels and sounds utterly despicable and yes, evil.

 

Makes me seriously not want to date at all when I read this stuff. Maybe I'm better off waiting for some nice widower to cross my path someday who hasn't been polluted by this garbage...

 

This is sad. Really sad.

Edited August 7, 2013 by RedRobin

[Treasa]

Some men are sociopaths, and this probably broadens their knowledge of how to do this. Most men, though, want to know how to be more successful with women.

 

I think the same goes for females. While PUA is geared toward men, for the most part, women often hear how to use sex to get what they want, use a guy up and then dump him, etc.

 

I really believe, from reading the other thread, that some tips that could be considered to fall under the realm of PUA could also fall under the realm of how to be more confident around women.

 

In a Venn diagram, this would fall in that little place in the middle between becoming a better man and using women. It depends on how the guy uses the info.

 

I am very protective of other females, but I also do think that men sometimes have it more difficult when it comes to dating. Not all men, and women do too, but...yeah. Sorry, I'm really tired and rambling.

[Treasa]

You can't train to have a personality disorder.

 

I do agree with this, but it could give someone who already has that trait more ammo to use.

[thefooloftheyear]

Its such a small percentage(wth does PUA stand for anyway?) and someone as sharp and perceptive as you are ought to be able to see right through it...Are they really any different than, say, gold digging women?

 

Think about it...

 

TFY

[fortyninethousand322]

PUA appeals to two types of men: a) guys who want to get casual sex and lots of it from attractive women and b) men who have a hard time getting dates and would really like to have a relationship.

 

The guys who have a hard time getting dates just have unappealing personalities or some kind of social retardation (I mean that in the literal sense of the word, not as a pejorative) like anxiety or something else. They need a severe jolt or "kick in the rear end" to start their dating lives. PUA can serve as that. Though admittedly in most cases it is not very helpful.

 

I know people who are on the look out for the "patriarchy" with about as much zeal as conspiracy theorists worry about the Illuminati will look at PUA as a sexist attempt by men to subjugate women. But, the reality is much less intriguing.

[William]

The risk with starting and/or continuing a topic related to one under active moderation is that the same inflammatory and off-topic postings which caused the referenced thread to come under moderation will occur here, and such postings will be processed individually until both threads (and/or any others which may start) are clear. This could result in substantial numbers of members being moderated or permanently banned. Proceed at your own risk. Moved to GRD. Thanks.

 

Edited to add that the referenced thread is now open for discussion conforming to our guidelines.

Edited August 7, 2013 by William

[Eddie Edirol]

Robin, You dont need PUA to have sociopaths.

 

The PUA is just making it easier for men to do what they always want to do, and always will want to do, get laid. Even if guys didnt have PUA, they would do what they have to, to get sex. If youve been lied to by a guy for him to get sex in your dating life, its most likely by a guy that didnt need PUA to do it. You still overlooked red flags thinking he wanted a relationship, and you were mad afterwards when faced with the red flags by a disappearance.

 

So regardless if you run into guys using PUA or not, you still have to do your due diligence to make sure YOU know the guy youre dating is on the same page as you. If you dont, youre the only one to blame for getting used, as are many people on this forum.

 

Stop panicking, its not a pandemic. Its nature.

[white]

I'm not an expert but my take on it is that guys who truly embrace it as a way of life, like it wants you to, are definitely going to be more prone to sociopathy than the average. It smacks to me of a cult and in my opinion the way it encourages people to think of women, as predictable input/output microchips, is not healthy.

 

On the other hand, I don't believe the vast majority of men who look at it can do that. They're just unhappy guys looking for advice. They might learn a thing or two to help themselves understand their problem but the wider, actual pick up artistry aspects aren't of much interest.

 

It's worth noting that not a single man I've ever known has learned or employed anything of PUA. And they're nearly all in long term relationships, married or with children now. They're all very average guys. Some are notably below average in some regards.

[salparadise]

It's just men's alternative to Cosmopolitan magazine... the art of seduction. If it happens to be what works, well are you going to blame the men for that? But yea, I think you should probably report everyone who reads that stuff as a dangerous sociopath. Call 911.

[Weezy1973]

Some PUAs are sociopaths. Most are not - probably matches the percentage in the general population.

 

There are many men that just don't have good social skills. There really aren't classes one can take to teach those - and they are infinitely valuable in ALL aspects of life (not just with women). I think many men can use some of the techniques taught through PUA to improve those skills. And that is actually good for everybody.

 

I've never used or read up on PUA techniques myself, but I was diagnosed with a severe social anxiety disorder about five years ago. This was probably due mostly to genetics (both parents and grand parents struggle with anxiety). In order to overcome my anxiety I literally had to force myself into situations that were incredibly uncomfortable and fear inducing (like having to poop fear). And as I continued to do that over and over again, the fear lessened.

 

A lot of PUA techniques are similar - in fact forcing otherwise socially awkward me to get into situations that don't come naturally. Getting into these situations over and over again over time should indeed make them more comfortable with women that they're attracted to - and that is no sociopathic in any way.

 

Of course the more common term for doing something repeatedly until it becomes comfortable is learning....

[RedRobin]

Pertaining to the mod's warning... perhaps I'll make this more personal rather than having a debate on PUA tactics in general...

 

I'm a woman who dates men, so folks, let's keep that in mind.

 

I've not been through a string of 'bad boys'. I was a late-blooming geek girl who barely dated throughout high school and college. Noone asked me out. I worked my way through school. Solely on my own. My parents didn't have the money. I'm only the second person in my family to even get a college education.

 

I've never 'gold-dug' any man... since my very first day as a dating woman, I always paid half. It's in my genetics, apparently... Deeply bred into me by my parents and family that everyone pulls their own weight... and I have.

 

When I divorced, my ex's inheritance went 100% back to him (he was from old money... we didn't have a prenup)... I insisted on it!! Had to tell his dad to f*ck off when he got paranoid about money and tried to get lawyers involved. We didn't. Thank God.

 

Flash forward... despite the fact that I did everything I could to save my marriage, and am now shoved headfirst into what feels like a *&^%$ cess pool of men looking to either punish women for whatever their exes did to them... or 'sow the oats' they never did when they were younger... and this is something I'm supposed to tolerate.

 

... and what do they turn to for advice? PUA stuff.

 

They don't turn to decent men who actually care about women.

 

... and these 'men' are back-slapped and high-fived for dating women young enough to be their daughters (WTF?!).

 

... for sleeping with however many women??

 

... for manipulating and lying about their feelings or lack of them, for what?

 

WHAT????????????

 

I didn't deserve this.

 

Lots of women (ok, people) don't deserve this.

 

I'm so done with 'dating' when I read stuff like this.

 

My dad is still here. He's here through the end of the month... and I know he misses my mom. It's so sweet that he wants to help with the house.

 

Their life hasn't been perfect, but god*mn if I'm not envious as h*ll at the shyte they will never have to endure in this *&^% dating world.

[Ryan R.]

I read quite a bit of PUA and "game" material in my junior year of college. I was introduced to it by my friends who are vastly more successful with women than I am. I figured I had nothing to lose, so I would give it a shot. I did and it didn't work for me. I don't like a lot of PUA because of the undercurrent of misogyny within some of the works I read. I also don't like it because they make it seem as if its foolproof and idiotproof.

 

My intention with reading PUA was not to manipulate women but to better understand how things between men and women worked and how I could hopefully try and get some options with dating. I also don't know how old you are but PUA seems to be much more popular with my age group/generation. I'm 21, by the way.

[TheBigQuestion]

What a ridiculous question. One can't be "trained" to become a sociopath.

[RedRobin]

Robin, You dont need PUA to have sociopaths.

 

The PUA is just making it easier for men to do what they always want to do, and always will want to do, get laid. Even if guys didnt have PUA, they would do what they have to, to get sex. If youve been lied to by a guy for him to get sex in your dating life, its most likely by a guy that didnt need PUA to do it. You still overlooked red flags thinking he wanted a relationship, and you were mad afterwards when faced with the red flags by a disappearance.

 

So regardless if you run into guys using PUA or not, you still have to do your due diligence to make sure YOU know the guy youre dating is on the same page as you. If you dont, youre the only one to blame for getting used, as are many people on this forum.

 

Stop panicking, its not a pandemic. Its nature.

 

I haven't overlooked any red flags.

 

... and from now on, I'm absolutely not going to tolerate shyte from anyone here, male or female, on my screening methods.

 

Because word up, I've never been wrong about the sh*theads I put aside. Never.

 

It also sucks to HAVE to have these walls because people are being trained in ever so many more sophisticated ways to hurt others or use them. That's NOT nature. That's cultural, and it is sick, IMHO.

[RedRobin]

You can't train to have a personality disorder.

 

Sure you can. Check out this month's Psychology Today on sociopaths.

 

Sounds a lot like PUA to me. Should mention that the topic of the article was a female sociopath...

 

so I'm not picking on any one gender...

[RedRobin]

Some PUAs are sociopaths. Most are not - probably matches the percentage in the general population.

 

There are many men that just don't have good social skills. There really aren't classes one can take to teach those - and they are infinitely valuable in ALL aspects of life (not just with women). I think many men can use some of the techniques taught through PUA to improve those skills. And that is actually good for everybody.

 

I've never used or read up on PUA techniques myself, but I was diagnosed with a severe social anxiety disorder about five years ago. This was probably due mostly to genetics (both parents and grand parents struggle with anxiety). In order to overcome my anxiety I literally had to force myself into situations that were incredibly uncomfortable and fear inducing (like having to poop fear). And as I continued to do that over and over again, the fear lessened.

 

A lot of PUA techniques are similar - in fact forcing otherwise socially awkward me to get into situations that don't come naturally. Getting into these situations over and over again over time should indeed make them more comfortable with women that they're attracted to - and that is no sociopathic in any way.

 

Of course the more common term for doing something repeatedly until it becomes comfortable is learning....

 

Hmmm... well, once upon a time, young men and women went to dances growing up...

 

and had female relatives (like my dad did. Three sisters and a wonderful, loving mother).

 

I dunno, maybe they went to church and had friends.

 

Maybe they only needed to find one, maybe two good women in their LIFE... not scores of them to validate their 'manhood'.

 

anyway, I'm not picking on you. This just validates what I believed and am doing already.

 

Thank you very much for your thoughts

[Eddie Edirol]

I haven't overlooked any red flags.

 

... and from now on, I'm absolutely not going to tolerate shyte from anyone here, male or female, on my screening methods.

 

Because word up, I've never been wrong about the sh*theads I put aside. Never.

 

It also sucks to HAVE to have these walls because people are being trained in ever so many more sophisticated ways to hurt others or use them. That's NOT nature. That's cultural, and it is sick, IMHO.

 

Oh relax, its not that serious. In fact, much of the men in this world choose to not abandon their "nice guy" beliefs on how to deal with women. The PUA stuff is usually too radical for them. But no matter what, you HAVE to have the walls regardless. The world of men at large isnt training to leave you in the fetal position in your bathtub. EVERYONE, men and women have to put up walls, no matter who they deal with. You learned early on that you cant walk the earth with your heart on your sleeve, you have to discriminate, and you say you know what to look for. So just keep doing what youre doing. if its worked thus far, its going to continue to work. If youve spotted guys being disingenuous up to this point, you'll be able to continue to spot it from a mile away. Guys who use PUA get laid cant get past that.

[Eddie Edirol]

Hmmm... well, once upon a time, young men and women went to dances growing up...

 

and had female relatives (like my dad did. Three sisters and a wonderful, loving mother).

 

I dunno, maybe they went to church and had friends.

 

Maybe they only needed to find one, maybe two good women in their LIFE... not scores of them to validate their 'manhood'.

 

Thats just a social network, they still have those you know.

 

Although Ive never met a man that felt getting laid was going to "validate his manhood".

[RedRobin]

I keep seeing that term... 'successful' with women.

 

What is that exactly? Successful???

 

My dad was pretty 'successful'. Married nearly 50 years. Only needed one. So have nearly all the men in my family.

 

How many women DO these guys need, exactly... to be considered 'successful'... and have 'options'...

 

I guess my definition of 'success' is just so *&^% radically different. Mind-boggling.

[Quiet Storm]

Sociopaths are natural manipulaters. They don't need tips.

[Ryan R.]

I keep seeing that term... 'successful' with women.

 

What is that exactly? Successful???

 

If I had a girl I really liked and she liked me back the same, I would consider that a success. Still, relationships don't last forever. I guess "successful" in this case is the ability to attract another woman if things go south. Basically the ability to go from relationship to relationship with physically and emotionally satisfying women if one so chooses.

[WisdomSeeker]

The PUA go for quick sex and hurt women because they like hurting people... It didn't take a social movement aimed at equal treatment to do that. It took our culture giving a green light to 'men' becoming evil and calling it 'manhood' and 'success'.

 

May I ask where you've seen such demonstrations of deliberate evil? I'm not familiar with every personality in the PUA "movement," and I am not overly informed of the slew of techniques/tactics that fall under the PUA umbrella. That said, most of what I've gathered in perusing the online PUA communities suggests that the vast majority of men participating in said communities aren't looking to scorn or wound women. Just the opposite in fact. These men appear to be in search of methods that will allow them to successfully (success in this case being measured by women's willingness to at least entertain them as potentials rather than dismissing them out of hand) approach women so that they can establish the kind of relationships that you see between the average Joe and Jane.

 

I see nothing evil in that description.

 

There is one point that I will however concede. If the tactics offered in PUA communities are as effective as advertised, then what you may be seeing and reacting to is the problem that has haunted humanity since the dawn of the species: power. The tactics themselves, as someone else pointed out, are mostly amoral. They are actionable strategies in response to accurate observations of human behavior and the interaction between the sexes. What a man chooses to do with those strategies is largely determined by the substance of his heart.

 

Unfortunately, there probably are wounded men out there who use PUA to express their hatred toward women, but is that a condemnation of the tactics or of he who wields them?

[GoodOnPaper]

I keep seeing that term... 'successful' with women.

 

What is that exactly? Successful???

 

My dad was pretty 'successful'. Married nearly 50 years. Only needed one. So have nearly all the men in my family.

 

How many women DO these guys need, exactly... to be considered 'successful'... and have 'options'...

 

I guess my definition of 'success' is just so *&^% radically different. Mind-boggling.

 

The initial attraction and infatuation has become the measuring stick and an end in itself. The long-range means nothing unless you've "put a ring on" that Adonis or lingerie model. Regular people who get together are always settling.

 

OK, maybe I'm exaggerating a little but it's still a sad state of affairs.

[fortyninethousand322]

I keep seeing that term... 'successful' with women.

 

What is that exactly? Successful???

 

My dad was pretty 'successful'. Married nearly 50 years. Only needed one. So have nearly all the men in my family.

 

How many women DO these guys need, exactly... to be considered 'successful'... and have 'options'...

 

I guess my definition of 'success' is just so *&^% radically different. Mind-boggling.

 

Success is find someone to date and eventually marry who also likes/loves you.

 

Success is not settling for the only person who would tolerate you.

 

It's basically a situation in which you aren't desperate and the other person isn't settling for you either. It's not a question of numbers.

[William]

Now that we've defined 'successful in dating' in a civil and respectful manner, let's move back to the topic of debating the connection between Pick Up Artistry and sociopathy. Thanks for your participation.