Did WS love BS before the A?

August 7, 2013

I do sometimes feel that the I loved you during the affair statement is a cop out. I know several of you have said you did. I accept that you say that.

I just wonder if its a way to reduce guilt for the affair?

I don't know, this is so confusing.

You make a very good point. Another woman recently posted to this thread that her H was rewriting history to say that he did not love her during the affair, as a way to justify wrecking their marriage.

At first my WS did that too. Used it as an excuse for an A. Said our marriage was awful back then and she hated me during the A. Then I said, but every weekend we spend all day together, mostly enjoying the hell out of each other. Almost every morning we woke up together with great conversations in bed before the day started. And great sex during the A.

Sure there were times that WS clearly hated me during the A. Probably had to get to that to be able to face self in mirror when thinking about the A. WS could not stand the thought that WS would cheat unless WS hated me. So WS looked for reasons to hate me and hung onto them and exaggerated them. But the reality of our relations was much different. Our M was better before the A and better after the A but during the A there was still love.

August 7, 2013

I was a selfish person before the A, but I did still love H. I did think about him and want the best for him. I still wanted to do for him (though mostly on my own terms). I was NOT fully committed to him. I do have at least two occasions that I specifically remember turning people down or getting out of "danger zone" situations (situations that could've led to cheating), so obviously there was some level of commitment. One of those was with my AP, a year before the A. We were working on a project together and it was starting to feel like we were dating, so I cooled things down.

However, I always had my back-up plan. I don't think I really "got" the concept of being with H for the rest of my life. I also saw nothing wrong with looking around casually, keeping my eyes open toward other guys, flirting, as long as it didn't go anywhere. Due to H's and my various discussions over the years, I always figured that if I felt stifled in the relationship, I could ask for an open relationship.

But I still loved H. To sum up, prior to the affair, I did love H, and there was action involved in that love, but it wasn't as deep or considering as it should've/could've been. There was still a lot of selfishness in my love. I was somewhat committed, but not at the level expected of marriage. Commitment adds greatly to love, but I don't think it is a necessary component in order for love to exist. Think of how many relationships where love exists end prior to a marriage commitment because of other reasons.

Enter the A. A started with discussions of an open relationship. By this time, AP and I were at a relatively sickening level of flirtation; we were already flirting with disaster, but I don't think we were yet at the EA point. As we discussed the open relationship idea, we began pushing boundaries. This made it very easy to continue to delude ourselves into the idea that we were just flirting, that we were going to end up f***ing soon anyhow, etc. This snowballed quickly until it eventually became a full-on sex PA.

H said to me recently that if I loved him, I couldn't've risked getting pregnant by OM (he is exaggerating a bit, but yes, we did do a few risky things). And I thought hard about it. Last August when this all began, I WOULD NOT have taken that risk. But by Jan, I was taking those risks. So what changed? The A.

Each step we took, each boundary we pushed killed a little piece of my love for H. Not that it made me FEEL less in love with him (although H said he felt my love a lot less toward the end of the A, esp. those last two months that I was sleeping with AP), but that it killed that action-y part of my love. Each time we pushed the boundary a little further, each time the lie became a little deeper, my wish to respect my H, my concern for his feelings, got buried a little deeper. Until in the end, all I had was a distant feeling of love toward him. Not actionable love, just the feeling.

My A had nothing to do with him; my selfishness had taken over and killed what we had. If H had left me right then, on DDay, a distant part of me would've cried out, but it would not have been remotely as bad as if he had left me 6 months earlier. That part of me had to be rehabilitated before I could really, meaningfully love him again. But oddly, I was able to commit to him (completely) very very soon after. It was like I just needed to flip a switch in my brain. It changed everything. Committing to him also made the love part come back with a vengeance.

So to sum up. I think that I loved him before the affair, just not as deeply as I could've, and without the necessary level of commitment to him. During the affair, I think that my love for him became a pale thing, a feeling only, but it was a gradual enough process downhill that I didn't really notice it.

Anyhow, that's just my theory this week. Some thoughts to try to make sense of everything. I made have a very different theory next week. Who knows?

August 7, 2013

Oh yes so happy, they love the ow/OM so much they pick their spouse on DDay...that makes total sense doesn't it...now I understand you love your MM more than you love yourself but that's an entirely different story.

I agree with the original poster, many WS love themselves more than anyone or anything else...particularly serial cheaters.

What about the ws that doesn't end the affair after dday, who do they love?

August 7, 2013

The reason I don't doubt I loved my H during my A is because I never wanted him to know nor did I want to leave him. And this had nothing to do with money or materiel things. I can hardly spend a day away from my H without missing him terribly. Just because some of my actions were bad doesn't mean all. To me sex does not = love. You can have one without the other. My choice to cheat was not a very loving thing to do. But my motivation was not hateful spite but rather selfish desire.

Love isn't just a verb. It is a noun too. My love for H during the A had holes in it. But I know that I told him about it because I love him. I am glad he doesn't doubt this. But then, he doesn't over think things or try to make everything black and white.

August 7, 2013

What about the ws that doesn't end the affair after dday, who do they love?

I would especially say that the WS in that situation loves themselves above all else. For the WS whose affair started with poor boundaries, not nurturing the marriage, etc., they can lie to themselves during the affair that no one is getting hurt - they get that something extra or missing (by their perspective), what the BS doesn't know won't hurt them, and the AP went into the situation willingly and therefore must be getting something out if it. But in the nuclear meltdown aftermath of DDay, that WS would have to be unbelievably, amazingly self-centered (and incredibly emotionally immature) to look at the destruction and see the damage reflected back at them from the eyes of the BS and the AP and still think it's ok to continue on as before because that's what they want. What an incredible lack of empathy that shows. For the serial cheater, I think it's the same answer, but they probably just never had to do any rationalizing during the affair to begin with - it was always about meeting their own wants because they have always loved themselves the most.

August 7, 2013

Well maybe just maybe the difference is that to a non straying spouse it is the same, because affairs are incredibly painful and destructive. So the BS sees it as equivalent to physical abuse. It has for most serious physical repercussions.

But to the straying spouse it's just a lie? Somehow a lie and sex that is just a bit on the side, to make one feel better, like a haircut? Or buying an expensive pair of shoes but in secret? but I still love you? It means nothing? To many OM/OW/WS on this site their piece on the side meant more to them than the harm it causes someone they love.

What I am saying is...to the. Betrayed spouse it is accurate. And they heal by building scars.

Oh- I would have preferred a physical beating and a stay in the hospital, and if given the choice right now of someone beating me to a pulp once a month, or going through again what I have just gone through the past few years, no hesitation I will choose the beatings... bring it.

I felt like I had been run over by a truck, then thrown off a cliff, then stabbed in the face and smashed with a boulder if I were to describe the equivalent physical pain to the emotional pain I have been through over this crap. I'm sure there are people reading this and thinking I am exaggerating or feeling sorry for myself or I am just a big baby who wants attention but I am not.

My point with the analogy wasnt to say that the only bad thing about cheating is lying, or that emotional pain is not comparable to physical pain- I don't think that at all.

Comparing a cheating spouse to a beating spouse is just technically a poor analogy and therefore an ineffective way to clarify a point to a WS- I am trying to think of a more accurate one. That analogy has been used many times and I understand its intent, but it can be dismissed as invalid. Trying to get a point across with an inaccurate analogy in an argument only gives the opposing party a reason to say you are overreacting and not making sense. Debate team '91. I'm a little rusty. There is definitely a way to make the same point but with irrefutable logic. I just can't come up with it argghhhh

August 7, 2013

I am the WS...with a MOM. I do love my husband though I don't know that it is the love that is necessary in a marriage to keep it going.....but I did/do love him and hope to work things out through IC to fix what ever is going on with me.

This is my first affair...went on for 10 mths and I am trying to end things with NC. I have no intention of having another affair and I feel very strongly about that although I am very susceptible to my MOM....and fear that I will go back with him and continue our A.

I am not MOM's first affair...he has cheated before me and will cheat after me....he is a serial cheater though I do believe he loves his BS. He loves their life together but he is not sexually attracted to her. He loves her in every other way.

I do believe it is possible to love someone.....love their qualities and all those special things that make them who they are...but not have sexual desire for them. That is where it is at with myself and my MOM....we have spouses whom we do not enjoy the intimacy with and we fill that void with each other. Not terribly loving towards our spouses though and I could see why they would doubt out love for them, though it is there.

The bolded part "He loves their life together" really stuck out at me. That complicates matters, too. You can (feelings) love your life with your spouse, have all sorts of joy in your heart for the house, kids, extended family, social ties, history, memories, fun vacations, etc. as well as (verb) love your life with your spouse, doing all sorts of loving actions for the family, bring flowers home, cut the grass, plan little trips, buy gifts, get a puppy, etc...

Easily confused with love for the BS

So confusing...

August 7, 2013

I'll rephrase my question then, because IMO it's not enough to just say you love your spouse. The actions don't match the words. How do you, in your own mind, make betrayal a component of love?

I'm with OP's husband - and can't wrap it arond my mind either.

If love = perfection I can see this. An Affair is the ULTIMATE example of being unloving, but I would say that every honest person who is married would say that they have all had times when their actions did not necessarily match the word "love."

When my husband secretly looked at porn and chatted online, his actions didn't match his words. When he withheld sex and unilaterally decided that the sex part of marriage was over, his actions didn't match the word love. When he spent thousands of dollars playing games like Runescape and Cityville and such while we were barely making it through the month, his actions didn't match his words.

Is it possible that he loved me even though he did all those things? Is it possible for someone to be controlling or passive aggressive or lazy or selfish and still love their spouse? If the answers to those questions are yes....then yes, someone can love their spouse and still make a terrible choice, even the choice to cheat.

In the beginning, it makes absolute sense for a BS to not be able to fathom and reconcile such a dissonance. BUT when someone refuses to believe their spouse ever loved them even when the spouse is remorseful in a pattern of actions and words.....or when someone presumes to know that NO WS ever loved their spouse....that is coming from a different place.

August 7, 2013

I am the WS...with a MOM. I do love my husband though I don't know that it is the love that is necessary in a marriage to keep it going.....but I did/do love him and hope to work things out through IC to fix what ever is going on with me.

This is my first affair...went on for 10 mths and I am trying to end things with NC. I have no intention of having another affair and I feel very strongly about that although I am very susceptible to my MOM....and fear that I will go back with him and continue our A.

I am not MOM's first affair...he has cheated before me and will cheat after me....he is a serial cheater though I do believe he loves his BS. He loves their life together but he is not sexually attracted to her. He loves her in every other way.

I do believe it is possible to love someone.....love their qualities and all those special things that make them who they are...but not have sexual desire for them. That is where it is at with myself and my MOM....we have spouses whom we do not enjoy the intimacy with and we fill that void with each other. Not terribly loving towards our spouses though and I could see why they would doubt out love for them, though it is there.

I love chocolate, and I love spring mornings, and I love Vince Flynn novels. The love you are describing is that kind of love.

Sexual desire is one single part of a loving relationship, which ebs and flows and can be repaired, IF you are invested in the relationship to try. The decision to address that issue with an affair indicates, to me, a type of love similar to my love of chocolate. I love chocolate, but then I love vanilla, and coffee...

August 8, 2013

Oh- I would have preferred a physical beating and a stay in the hospital, and if given the choice right now of someone beating me to a pulp once a month, or going through again what I have just gone through the past few years, no hesitation I will choose the beatings... bring it

You can't honestly say that unless you have experienced both. Being physically abused is a mental thing too.

August 8, 2013

You can't honestly say that unless you have experienced both. Being physically abused is a mental thing too.

I understand, I am not trying in any way to minimize the mental anguish anyone who goes through physical abuse must suffer, that is a whole different topic and I hope my post was not mistaken for that. Physical abuse must be torture and I am deeply sympathetic for anyone who has experienced it, and encourage anyone who is currently experiencing physical abuse to reach out for help and support.

My comparison was to physical pain only, not abuse. I'd volunteer to get in the ring with a lady MMA fighter once a month and get my butt kicked, like a sport- I would never, ever say I'd volunteer to be in a physically abusive marriage, and I'm very sorry if I was unclear, that was really insensitive of me.

August 8, 2013

You can't honestly say that unless you have experienced both. Being physically abused is a mental thing too.

I have experienced both. I would much rather have physical abuse. It is easier to identify and correct (leave.) Or defend, fight back.

An affair is like physical abuse while you are in a comma. Your WS beats you to a pulp and you don't know who did it or anything about it until after it is over. At least the physical abuser is honest with how they feel about you.

August 8, 2013

You can't honestly say that unless you have experienced both. Being physically abused is a mental thing too.

I do agree with this; being mentally abused is horrible enough in itself, but physical abuse can bring about psychological trauma.

I had the misfortune of someone telling me he had more emotional scars than I did, just because his father told them he was "disappointed in him".

And while I could appreciate the guilt-stricken feeling he experienced from his father saying that, I pointed out to him that the years of physical abuse I endured from my step-dad carried a lot of emotional trauma as well.

Suffice it to say, he recanted pretty quick...

In any case though, I can somewhat see the analogy of an affair being like physical abuse...but by the same token, I also think they are two very separate entities. One isn't more devastating than the other, but simply different.

August 8, 2013

From time to time my exMM would tell me he loves his wife. Just not a man/woman love. A family member type of love. No intimate emotional connection and no intimate physical connection.

I could never figure out his relationship to her though I really tried. I wanted to see their photo together so that I could more imagine him married. He just always seemed like mine, not someone who belonged to another person. Thought if I could see their photo together it would jolt me into reality. Sorry to t/j.

August 8, 2013

Is it possible that he loved me even though he did all those things? Is it possible for someone to be controlling or passive aggressive or lazy or selfish and still love their spouse? If the answers to those questions are yes....then yes, someone can love their spouse and still make a terrible choice, even the choice to cheat.

In the beginning, it makes absolute sense for a BS to not be able to fathom and reconcile such a dissonance. BUT when someone refuses to believe their spouse ever loved them even when the spouse is remorseful in a pattern of actions and words.....or when someone presumes to know that NO WS ever loved their spouse....that is coming from a different place.

This thread provides me with some great insight and perspective - thank you all.

Janedoe; of course it's possible, and I agree it's not black and white - I think Compulsivedancer adresses it pretty well in her previous post, which I think is an amazing and very introspective post.

As I mentioned earlier, the BS gets a serious brain**** and realizes that he can't trust anything he sees, he can't even trust his own judgement the same. So I don't think it's odd if he questions her love at any given time in the past. Further; remorse... what does it look like? Can it be faked? Is it real? Real as in REAL or just as real as the marriage he thought he had?

This is one of the important differences from all the other forms of abuse mentioned before as analogies (and I don't condone any of them in any shape or form); physical abuse, passive/agressive behaviour, verbal abuse - you can see them and act on them - betrayal changes your perception of reality and your ability to trust what you see, hear, feel and experience.

Betrayal changes your life for ever - both as a WS and as a BS. Not to say it can't be a great life, just different.

August 8, 2013

One of the worst losses a BS feels after DDAY is the loss of trusting one's own reality.

This is debilitating and crazy making and life altering. How did I not know? See? Suspect? And then.....

HOW could you do this to me? How could you lie and deceive me daily?

It's why we obsess over the details, pore over the emails, texts, and bank statements. We are frantically trying to piece together our own reality, the one the affair robbed us of.

Love doesn't destroy. Selishness might.

I love puppies, oatmeal cookies and sunflowers. It's easy. I am not expected to commit to puppies, work for puppies, fill the needs of puppies.

yet I can sit back and say I love them. It's easy, and I do not have to show it, or prove it, connect or commit to it every day.

it's some sort of vague, sentimental feeling. It requires no effort. A concept at best.

Keep it. I deserve better. Always have. Always will.

August 8, 2013

I am the BS here. My H claimed he loved me before and after this whole thing happened. I too thought well, if you loved me you wouldn't do that. But I think that when you are put in an intense situation sometimes that all goes out the window.

I doubt while my H was screwing this witch he thought about us. He was having some fun as if he were on an amusement park ride and when it was said and done he came back to reality and then put those pieces together and realized the hurt and pain he caused me and us.

If you are selfish and just don't care perhaps you did not have feelings for your H. My first H I believe used me too. He used me to get out of his parents home and pay for his education and once he was working it didn't matter that I had his son and was pregnant with another he still cheated and wanted to leave us. He is still a selfish person to this very day and his children who are now older see this.

My current H loves me without a doubt. He is remorseful and wants us to grow old, set goals together, travel and rebuild everything that was destroyed when he chose to stick it to someone else.

So for those of you who are in R but do not really feel you want to be and are still secretly contacting your lovers, do us BS a favor and leave. We don't need you, we will survive and we deserve someone in the end who will reciprocate all of the love, life and happiness we are willing to give and share.

August 8, 2013

Enter the A. A started with discussions of an open relationship. By this time, AP and I were at a relatively sickening level of flirtation; we were already flirting with disaster, but I don't think we were yet at the EA point. As we discussed the open relationship idea, we began pushing boundaries. This made it very easy to continue to delude ourselves into the idea that we were just flirting, that we were going to end up f***ing soon anyhow, etc. This snowballed quickly until it eventually became a full-on sex PA.

H said to me recently that if I loved him, I couldn't've risked getting pregnant by OM (he is exaggerating a bit, but yes, we did do a few risky things). And I thought hard about it. Last August when this all began, I WOULD NOT have taken that risk. But by Jan, I was taking those risks. So what changed? The A.

Each step we took, each boundary we pushed killed a little piece of my love for H. Not that it made me FEEL less in love with him (although H said he felt my love a lot less toward the end of the A, esp. those last two months that I was sleeping with AP), but that it killed that action-y part of my love. Each time we pushed the boundary a little further, each time the lie became a little deeper, my wish to respect my H, my concern for his feelings, got buried a little deeper. Until in the end, all I had was a distant feeling of love toward him. Not actionable love, just the feeling.

My A had nothing to do with him; my selfishness had taken over and killed what we had. If H had left me right then, on DDay, a distant part of me would've cried out, but it would not have been remotely as bad as if he had left me 6 months earlier. That part of me had to be rehabilitated before I could really, meaningfully love him again. But oddly, I was able to commit to him (completely) very very soon after. It was like I just needed to flip a switch in my brain. It changed everything. Committing to him also made the love part come back with a vengeance.

You always were ripe for an affair. You passed up others. This OM knew how to work you. The smart OM groom their next conquest. Take their time. Those other guys did not know how to work you.

99.99999999999999999999999999999% of affairs the WW lets the OM ride her bareback.

Why?

Because the need to rationalize that what they are doing is not wrong. They need to feel that the affair is not wrong. Proof of this affair is not wrong I will let the OM ride me bareback. OM rides WW bareback. WW has her justification that the affair is not wrong.

Thing is when the OM knocks up a WW. Why do most WW try to pass off BH as the bio dad of the OC?

After all what the OM and the WW had was so right.

August 8, 2013

I was a selfish person before the A, but I did still love H. I did think about him and want the best for him. I still wanted to do for him (though mostly on my own terms). I was NOT fully committed to him. I do have at least two occasions that I specifically remember turning people down or getting out of "danger zone" situations (situations that could've led to cheating), so obviously there was some level of commitment. One of those was with my AP, a year before the A. We were working on a project together and it was starting to feel like we were dating, so I cooled things down.

However, I always had my back-up plan. I don't think I really "got" the concept of being with H for the rest of my life. I also saw nothing wrong with looking around casually, keeping my eyes open toward other guys, flirting, as long as it didn't go anywhere. Due to H's and my various discussions over the years, I always figured that if I felt stifled in the relationship, I could ask for an open relationship.

But I still loved H. To sum up, prior to the affair, I did love H, and there was action involved in that love, but it wasn't as deep or considering as it should've/could've been. There was still a lot of selfishness in my love. I was somewhat committed, but not at the level expected of marriage. Commitment adds greatly to love, but I don't think it is a necessary component in order for love to exist. Think of how many relationships where love exists end prior to a marriage commitment because of other reasons.

Enter the A. A started with discussions of an open relationship. By this time, AP and I were at a relatively sickening level of flirtation; we were already flirting with disaster, but I don't think we were yet at the EA point. As we discussed the open relationship idea, we began pushing boundaries. This made it very easy to continue to delude ourselves into the idea that we were just flirting, that we were going to end up f***ing soon anyhow, etc. This snowballed quickly until it eventually became a full-on sex PA.

H said to me recently that if I loved him, I couldn't've risked getting pregnant by OM (he is exaggerating a bit, but yes, we did do a few risky things). And I thought hard about it. Last August when this all began, I WOULD NOT have taken that risk. But by Jan, I was taking those risks. So what changed? The A.

Each step we took, each boundary we pushed killed a little piece of my love for H. Not that it made me FEEL less in love with him (although H said he felt my love a lot less toward the end of the A, esp. those last two months that I was sleeping with AP), but that it killed that action-y part of my love. Each time we pushed the boundary a little further, each time the lie became a little deeper, my wish to respect my H, my concern for his feelings, got buried a little deeper. Until in the end, all I had was a distant feeling of love toward him. Not actionable love, just the feeling.

My A had nothing to do with him; my selfishness had taken over and killed what we had. If H had left me right then, on DDay, a distant part of me would've cried out, but it would not have been remotely as bad as if he had left me 6 months earlier. That part of me had to be rehabilitated before I could really, meaningfully love him again. But oddly, I was able to commit to him (completely) very very soon after. It was like I just needed to flip a switch in my brain. It changed everything. Committing to him also made the love part come back with a vengeance.

So to sum up. I think that I loved him before the affair, just not as deeply as I could've, and without the necessary level of commitment to him. During the affair, I think that my love for him became a pale thing, a feeling only, but it was a gradual enough process downhill that I didn't really notice it.

Anyhow, that's just my theory this week. Some thoughts to try to make sense of everything. I made have a very different theory next week. Who knows?

This is one of the best posts by a WS that I've ever read. Thank you for taking the time to write all this and explain your perspective.

August 9, 2013

True love = true commitment.

I agree with your husband.

True love is not selfish. True love does not seek to fulfill itself at the expense of someone else.

If you loved your husband, truly loved him, you would have had enough respect for him to not humiliate him by having an affair.

By not risking yourself to have someone else's child.

Affairs only speak one language and it begins and ends with "me"

Love seeks to support,nurture and build.

How can you say you love someone while you are tearing them down behind their backs?

How can you say that you will be there for them while you are busy planning and scheming to betray them over and over again.

Love is proven by action and not words.

Can saying "I love you" to your spouse in the morning be true while you are planning to be intimate with your affair partner that same day?

What action is being done compared to what is just being said?

Just because you like being with your spouse or feel like you can't live without them doesn't mean you love them.

If anything it proves more selfishness because it's still about you.

Having an affair is like killing someone spiritually. The pain of that is horrendous and lasts almost a lifetime.

I have heard people say that they would rather be dead than experience the pain of infidelity and some have gave up their lives because of it.

So how can you say you love someone and know that you are putting this kind of pain on them?

If you say it wasn't about my spouse, it was about me, then the love you had/have for yourself outweighed what you had for your spouse.

So if love is not selfish..did you really love your spouse?

August 9, 2013

"True love is not selfish. True love does not seek to fulfill itself at the expense of someone else.