How much does the "alpha male" instinct play into an affair?

[compulsivedancer]

This post is inspired by some comments by Oldshirt here http://www.loveshack.org/forums/romantic/marriage-life-partnerships/infidelity/413012-just-can-t-except-her-story

 

I'm wondering, for those of you who've experienced an affair (from any side of it), how much male-female instinctive roles played into things. Here's what I wrote in my post on that thread (I don't want to rewrite the whole thing; forgive my laziness):

 

H and I have always been fairly jealousy-free. We thought we were more "evolved." But I was hurt that when we were discussing an open relationship, he was not bothered by the fact that I suggested his best friend (who became my AP-we never received permission; I cheated instead) as a potential sexual partner.

 

Fast forward to my A.

 

AP inspired jealousy in me (sometimes on purpose) when he would look at other women and sometimes when he discussed his GF (esp. on the emotional side). He was jealous whenever I talked about the concept of being with someone else if H okayed the open marriage idea. He was also jealous whenever I mentioned previous sexual experiences (including with H) in more than completely general terms. I found that I enjoyed having someone jealous over me for the first time in my life. It made me feel wanted.

 

After DDay, H admitted that he HAS been jealous at times over the years, but never mentioned it because he thought that he was a better man than that; he was ashamed of being jealous. Interestingly, he believes that part of the reason AP did what he did was the thrill of besting H sexually (H tends to be the alpha in our friends group).

 

I had estimated how many times I had sex with AP. Once we hit that number, H announced that he had hit the number (I hadn't been keeping track), THEN spent a week deciding whether he wanted to "keep" me or not (time #2, but to my way of thinking, he had to reclaim me for the sake of his masculinity before he could truly make a choice).

[JustAReformedGirl]

You know, I've often wondered how much of it has to do with animal instinct, as well.

 

I've always had some jealousy issues, though as far as my H, I've calmed down a great deal over the years. In fact, I don't even get jealous in regards to him anymore, which in my situation suggests to me it's because I'm losing that kind of love for him.

 

In regards to AP? AP has jealousy over me being with H, though it isn't frequently expressed. Likewise, I've felt jealousy when AP was dating briefly during our affair, and occasionally in regards to certain females he's had a past with, or flirts with. It's well handled though. I seldom ever let him know about it, and it usually passes. I'm certain, if we could (or ever will) have a legit relationship, I will have nothing to worry about. Yes, it crosses my mind, at times, that I will deal with insecurities; but, that just seems to be who I am. I hate it, but I can't seem to rid myself of it, nor can I fully accept that side of me.

 

I'd say the personality of one's partner-whatever that partner is to them-is what draws you in. For everyone, what draws them in is different.

[NYWoman]

I was newly married and we had just moved so that I could take the beginning of a career job. Prior to marriage my H was extremely Alpha, very much a ladies man, though to look at him, older by 10 years, short and scrawny it was easy to think less of him. After the marriage he totally changed, gave up drinking, gave up his race cars, sold his motorcycle, and became a loving H most women would love to have, thoughtful, finding time to romance and be with me, cleaning the house doing the laundry. Somehow I forgot how he used to be.

 

My co-workers and I all had college degrees, and were working hi-tech, while H was a college drop out, but a journeyman in a high paying trade running machinery.

 

The krux of our problem was finance, I was making twice what he made. And somehow I forgot that he had been offered night jobs in his trade at twice my pay, and had settled for the lesser paying job so that we could have our nights together. The lesser pay, the lack of a degree, and him being a good 6 inches and 50 pounds less than my male co-workers made them feel superior to him. And it was not long before I too had developed a similar attitude and began to disrespect him. I forgot what a man he really was.

 

On d-day, once caught, he shocked me by throwing me under the bus and telling the AP, "she's yours now!" He dumped me and never looked back

 

He quit his day job and went to nights and began making twice what me and my co-workers made.

 

Within a month, he had seduced the first of one of my male co-workers wives. And over the next year succeeded in seducing and breaking up two more of the AP marriages. My wannabe worker Alphas all turned into blubbering wimps.

 

Oh and one night he confronted my OM and told him to "get". OM was packed and moved out of town within days.

 

That is my alpha story

Edited August 3, 2013 by NYWoman

[road]

Pointless post.

 

Betas will cheat as well. The proof they always affair down phrase.

 

Just because a spouse is having an affair and is jealous of their AP and the AP can be jealous of them means that they are normal in that they are able to be jealous.

 

You confuse willing to cheat on your husband had to mean that you should not be jealous.

 

No all that means is that you did not want to have to share your OM with any one else. The same way many a WW while banging her OM would be outraged that her BH found a woman to cheat with.

 

Willing to cheat but not willing to be cheated on is what goes through the WS's mind.

 

Isn't love grand.

[oldshirt]

For the most part I am not really into this Alpha/Beta stuff. That stuff is for high school boys and college freshman to tease themselves over and try to puff themselves up and act all "alpha" when the go to the clubs.

 

There aren't two different types of people. Everyone has some alpha qualities and some beta qualities and you need both to function in the real world.

 

What it all really means is that in order for someone to hop in the sack they need two different things to mesh together. One is they have to have some physical attraction and sexual chemistry. you can call those "alpha" if you want. The traits that women are typically sexually attracted and what makes them desire sex with a man are things like ht, muscles, lean body mass, masculine facial features and also personality traits like assertiveness, courageousness, flirtatiousness, ambition, dominance and as we've been discussing, mate-guarding.

 

The catch is men with a lot of those traits can be very intimidating and unsettling to women and some can also come off as very abraisive, rude, selfish, aggressive and annoying.

 

So that has to be counterbalanced with comfort and rapport building traits like kindness, politeness, patience, nurturing, personableness, generosity etc etc etc. (beta)

 

All people have a mixture of these traits and can and often do fluctuate back and forth at various times and during various situations.

 

This is also further complicated in that each woman has a different mix of alpha/beta traits that she likes. Some women are attracted to only highly beta traits while others are attracted to highly beta. And all women can fluxuate a great deal on what they find attractive depending on where they are at in the ovulation cycles. Typically more are more attracted to more alpha traits when they are ovulating and attracted to more beta traits in midcycle.

 

 

In your case, the other man was attracted to you because you had nice hooters and a firm butt and a pretty face and mostly because you were willing to have sex with him.

 

It's that simple. No other complexities were involved.

 

You were a healthy, fertile, attractive female that was available to him and since your husband wasn't threatening to kick his ass he went for it. Probably every other man on the planet would have done the same thing under the same conditions (an exaggeration of course but the point is very valid)

 

It had nothing to do with your husbands alpha status. In fact your husband's lack of jealousy and willingness to consider an open marriage was in fact VERY BETA. and both your OM and you interpreted that beta as weakness and took advantage of it.

 

I say that because you took his consideration of open marriage as your opportunity to get with the OM as you had already had a desire for him. You interpreted that as weakness and that your husband would not stop it or do anything to you or the OM and that you would not suffer any consequences from it and so you jumped him without getting the official greenlight first.

 

You cheated. Your husband has the right to call foul, Although he does need to accept some of the responsibility for setting up some of those conditions and not establishing and enforcing the boundaries.

 

Monogamists and swingers alike must establish strong boundaries and enforce them diligently. The only real difference between traditional monogamists and swingers (I'm am lumping all consensual nonmonogamy together and calling them all swingers for this purpose) where it comes to sex with others is monogamists only have one rule and that is - "DON'T"

 

Swingers will have dozens and dozens of rules and boundaries and it is way lot harder to monitor and enforce 27 rules than it is to monitor and enforce 1.

 

It seems counterintuitive but cheating and infidelity are almost just as prevalent and it is just as destructive in the swinger world as it is the monogamous world.

[oldshirt]

In your case Compulsivedancer, I think it is a case of being given an inch and taking a mile.

 

I believe you were already desiring the OM when and when the door to your bedroom was being opened a little tiny crack, you saw a little ray of light coming through it and you barged in and took what you were already wanting before you were given all the rules of the game and before you were given the green light.

 

Are there animal instincts involved? Of course. There are animal instincts involved in everything we do from eating and drinking and breathing to marital sex to extra marital sex. Desire and attraction are not choices, they are imprinted deep within us. We can't control our attractions and desires but we can control our actions.

 

You chose to disregard your husbands boundaries and pursue your own desires on your terms without his consent. He helped set up the conditions that lead to the trap being sprung a little bit but it is still infidelity just as much as if you were a traditional monogamous couple...

 

perhaps even more......

 

I always told my wife that if she cheated during our swinger years that I would probably be even more pissed and come down on her even more harshly than if we had been strict monogamists.

 

As a swinger you accept that people have attractions and desires for more than just one person and you establish a system so that you can indulge some of those attractions and desires. In other words if someone wants to have sex with someone else there is a system and a game plan in place to address those needs. If someone steps out of that system and backdoors the process and cheats that, then that is really going to far:mad:

[JustAReformedGirl]

While I see sense in what oldshirt says....

 

 

...ease up, buddy. CD is a reformed WS. She made some poor decisions, but she isn't a bad person. She's trying to make up for her mistakes.

 

But, you're right; our animal instincts play a part in our day-to-day lives. We'd do well to accept them-but control is certainly needed.

 

Sadly, the game of "could've, should've would've" is a very prevalent one, indeed.

[compulsivedancer]

Rebel, I asked for his input. Oldshirt, thanks.

[compulsivedancer]

This is confusing because the conversation continued here and on that other thread. I'm hoping the moderator will be able to rectify that.

 

Road says that I'm using this "alpha" stuff to continue justifying my A. Actually, I was just more curious about whether the male need to assert dominance, etc plays more into these dynamics than I'd expected.

 

I know my question is all over the board, but I was more curious about AP's motivations. I don't think he was trying to prove anything to H, but there's always the possibility. Neither guy is a chest-beater, so I forget about the male instincts sometimes.

 

I was very taken aback at the masculine display my H put on when he confronted us on DDay. I think he did everything but roar. H has always been strong and dominant, but it has always been understated. He is a big man and rarely needs to assert his dominance, so to see him do it there was almost shocking, even in the circumstances. I never knew he had that level of aggression inside.

 

I was curious to see if other people have similar experiences.

[JustAReformedGirl]

Rebel, I asked for his input. Oldshirt, thanks.

 

My apologies.

 

I haven't had a similar experience, but that's likely owed to the fact that H and AP have never met.

 

Jealousy has been exhibited by both (H knows how I feel about AP) and AP has made the odd jealous remark, but so far, no chest-beating.

[oldshirt]

While I see sense in what oldshirt says....

 

 

...ease up, buddy. CD is a reformed WS. She made some poor decisions, but she isn't a bad person. She's trying to make up for her mistakes.

 

But, you're right; our animal instincts play a part in our day-to-day lives. We'd do well to accept them-but control is certainly needed.

 

Sadly, the game of "could've, should've would've" is a very prevalent one, indeed.

 

I didn't say she was a bad person. Just stating that violating the boundaries in an open marriage situation is every bit as much infidelity as cheating in a monogamous marriage.

 

And once it has occurred, it needs to be addressed and delt with every bit as much as cheating in a monogamous marriage.

[JustAReformedGirl]

I didn't say she was a bad person. Just stating that violating the boundaries in an open marriage situation is every bit as much infidelity as cheating in a monogamous marriage.

 

And once it has occurred, it needs to be addressed and dealt with every bit as much as cheating in a monogamous marriage.

 

Very true. I apologize. I thought perhaps you were attacking, without really addressing her post. My mistake.

[oldshirt]

 

 

Road says that I'm using this "alpha" stuff to continue justifying my A. Actually, I was just more curious about whether the male need to assert dominance, etc plays more into these dynamics than I'd expected.

.

 

I dunno if that is true or not. What it all boils down to is the heart wants what it wants and the jay-jay wants what it wants.

 

Some people will want that aggressive, dominant approach and others will want the soft, gentle, supportive approach.

 

Over time the guys that are proactive and aggressive and dominant and are putting forth the effort will always get more than the passive, timid, supportive guys that sit back and wait for women to seduce them.

[oldshirt]

Very true. I apologize. I thought perhaps you were attacking, without really addressing her post. My mistake.

 

I know I wasn't attacking but I'm not sure whether I'm really addressing her post or not because I really haven't figured out exactly what her question is yet LOL:laugh:

[compulsivedancer]

I know I wasn't attacking but I'm not sure whether I'm really addressing her post or not because I really haven't figured out exactly what her question is yet LOL:laugh:

Not sure if I have one. You just always have interesting insight and you've never commented on one of my posts, so I jumped at the chance to hear what you'd say.

 

I think you did answer my actual question, about AP. You said no, probably he wasn't thinking about H at all.

[JustAReformedGirl]

I dunno if that is true or not. What it all boils down to is the heart wants what it wants and the jay-jay wants what it wants.

 

Fairly good point. Sometimes the two are at war, but usually, at least in long-term cases, emotions are involved that lead to the physical wanting. Well, maybe not usually, but in a fair number of cases, the two seem to agree on what they want.

 

Some people will want that aggressive, dominant approach and others will want

the soft, gentle, supportive approach.

 

And some people will like both approaches. Usually, you can find both in one partner, because that partner also goes back and forth. Sometimes you want hard sex, and sometimes you want it tender.

 

Over time the guys that are proactive and aggressive and dominant and are putting forth the effort will always get more than the passive, timid, supportive guys that sit back and wait for women to seduce them.

 

The majority of the time, yes. It really boils down to what type of person the woman is, as well. Some women prefer that gentler, more timid guy to settle down with. I personally like an assertive guy, that tells me what he wants, but also gives me room to decide as well. I don't want a guy thinking he rules my every breath, my every move. But I do want him to feel comfortable expressing his own needs and wants. Apathy in relationships is a major buzz kill for me.

 

I know I wasn't attacking but I'm not sure whether I'm really addressing her post or not because I really haven't figured out exactly what her question is yet LOL:laugh:

 

I'll admit, I'm somewhat confused, too. I think some alpha and beta issues definitely come up in regards to preferences, be they affairs or legit relationships, but I don't think it's the end all, be all. It may play a part, or it might not, at all. Depends on the person, and what stage they are in their life.

[oldshirt]

 

I know my question is all over the board, but I was more curious about AP's motivations. I don't think he was trying to prove anything to H, but there's always the possibility. Neither guy is a chest-beater, so I forget about the male instincts sometimes.

 

.

 

I think you are really giving your AP and your H a little too much credit here. Guys aren't women and aren't complex. You are trying to make this all out to be some kind of deep, instinctual and complex mating strategy where the beta wolf is trying to unseat the alpha wolf and take over the pack. And you are acting like this is some kind of complex evolutionary competition between your AP and your H.

 

When you presented your AP with an opportunity to bang ya his mind went through a 2 second checklist that went something like this -

 

- tits? Check

 

-ass? Check

 

-legs? check

 

- waistline? Check

 

-face? Check

 

- husband gonna find out and tear me into little shreds? I don't think so.

 

LET'S GO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

 

He was a horny dude that didn't pass up on an opportunity for some extra poontang and your husband found out and was pissed about it. It really isn't anything more complex than that.

[JustAReformedGirl]

Lol, I don't know about that, Oldshirt. I think men can be just as complex as women, and some women can be as "simple" as men.

 

I've never bought that one gender is more one way than the other. I think in a lot of cases, we're merely conditioned to think that way.

 

That being said? In CD's case, there likely wasn't anything really complex as work there. AP got cocky, sure. I doubt he was looking to de-throne H.

 

In some cases though? I'm positive there are competitions of that nature.

[Lei Ping]

I think you are really giving your AP and your H a little too much credit here. Guys aren't women and aren't complex. You are trying to make this all out to be some kind of deep, instinctual and complex mating strategy where the beta wolf is trying to unseat the alpha wolf and take over the pack. And you are acting like this is some kind of complex evolutionary competition between your AP and your H.

 

When you presented your AP with an opportunity to bang ya his mind went through a 2 second checklist that went something like this -

 

- tits? Check

 

-ass? Check

 

-legs? check

 

- waistline? Check

 

-face? Check

 

- husband gonna find out and tear me into little shreds? I don't think so.

 

LET'S GO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

 

He was a horny dude that didn't pass up on an opportunity for some extra poontang and your husband found out and was pissed about it. It really isn't anything more complex than that.

Unless it becomes a little too convenient or too comforting and one or more parties get their L's mixed up and confuse like and lust for love. Then it gets really, really complex.

 

I would suggest that AP and H get on a plane to a nearby 3rd World country and spend a week or so paying beautiful 20 year old Chicas the $25 it takes to obtain 3 hole access with GFE and return with a new perspective.

 

Women in the developed world seem to have foregone their responsibilities where matrimony is concerned. Men are migrating en masse to the places where traditional values are still respected. Planes full of mancationing guys are leaving for Panama, Costa Rica, Colombia, Dominican Republic, Jamaica, Honduras, Nicaragua, Ecuador, Brazil, Netherland Antilles, Thailand, Phillipines, Kenya, Ethiopia, Hungary and about a hundred other countries just to remember what it's like to be with a real Woman.

 

Guys are wifing up nonprofessional Women in these countries for no more than the cost of rent ($180 WU a month) and travelling to these countries several times a year just to remember what it's like to be appreciated for being a Man.

 

North American should look around them with their eyes open. They are being replaced daily by cheaper, more reliable imports.

[AbeNormal]

What does alpha, beta, gamma, delta, epsilon, zeta, eta, theta, etc. have to do with one's wedding vows?

 

What does it have to do with strength of character? And honesty/faithfulness/integrity?

Edited August 5, 2013 by AbeNormal

[compulsivedancer]

Unless it becomes a little too convenient or too comforting and one or more parties get their L's mixed up and confuse like and lust for love. Then it gets really, really complex.

 

I would suggest that AP and H get on a plane to a nearby 3rd World country and spend a week or so paying beautiful 20 year old Chicas the $25 it takes to obtain 3 hole access with GFE and return with a new perspective.

 

Women in the developed world seem to have foregone their responsibilities where matrimony is concerned. Men are migrating en masse to the places where traditional values are still respected. Planes full of mancationing guys are leaving for Panama, Costa Rica, Colombia, Dominican Republic, Jamaica, Honduras, Nicaragua, Ecuador, Brazil, Netherland Antilles, Thailand, Phillipines, Kenya, Ethiopia, Hungary and about a hundred other countries just to remember what it's like to be with a real Woman.

 

Guys are wifing up nonprofessional Women in these countries for no more than the cost of rent ($180 WU a month) and travelling to these countries several times a year just to remember what it's like to be appreciated for being a Man.

 

North American should look around them with their eyes open. They are being replaced daily by cheaper, more reliable imports.

Ew? What's the appeal to these girls, other than the ability to buy them and forego courtship?

[compulsivedancer]

What does alpha, beta, gamma, delta, epsilon, zeta, eta, theta, etc. have to do with one's wedding vows?

 

What does it have to do with strength of character? And honesty/faithfulness/integrity?

That's my question. Is there any relation at all? Do these roles play into an affair and how?

 

I'm not looking for excuses. I know what I did, and I know that these roles happen regardless of infidelity. I'm just curious whether they contribute to an affair, intensify an affair, intensify fallout? Cause any male in the triangle to react a certain way (or any female, for that matter?) etc.

 

Oldshirt raised some interesting points in that other thread I linked and I just wanted to explore it further.

[AbeNormal]

That's my question. Is there any relation at all? Do these roles play into an affair and how?

 

I'm not looking for excuses. I know what I did, and I know that these roles happen regardless of infidelity. I'm just curious whether they contribute to an affair, intensify an affair, intensify fallout? Cause any male in the triangle to react a certain way (or any female, for that matter?) etc.

 

Oldshirt raised some interesting points in that other thread I linked and I just wanted to explore it further.

 

Sorry. My post wasn't meant to raise/respond-to a question.

 

It was intended to be rather direct.

 

Best wishes.

[compulsivedancer]

Oh, well then I'll answer then. Nothing whatsoever. I don't think any of those roles have anything to do with marriage vows.

 

But the "male ego" is an interesting thing. H kept telling me after DDay that I am naive and don't understand men, and the extent to which they are dogs. He told me that AP had no interest in me as a person, just as a willing sex object. He also said that he thought maybe AP had a desire to stick it to him and prove that he could mate with the alpha's wife, so to speak. That sounds ridiculous to me, though the first part is probably accurate. Just curious if others have had any experiences with this stuff.

[AbeNormal]

Oh, well then I'll answer then. Nothing whatsoever. I don't think any of those roles have anything to do with marriage vows.

 

But the "male ego" is an interesting thing. H kept telling me after DDay that I am naive and don't understand men, and the extent to which they are dogs. He told me that AP had no interest in me as a person, just as a willing sex object. He also said that he thought maybe AP had a desire to stick it to him and prove that he could mate with the alpha's wife, so to speak. That sounds ridiculous to me, though the first part is probably accurate. Just curious if others have had any experiences with this stuff.

 

As a man (and based upon what you have shared) - and what I know about men (and I know a lot more than you do lady, about those men) - I'd say your husband has it about right. Oh well.

Edited August 5, 2013 by AbeNormal