Author Betterthanthis13 Posted August 1, 2013 Author Posted August 1, 2013 i think many of these responses are jumping ahead to the end. i think nearly all START as cake eaters. WS are window shopping/curious/'how's that lawn?' and never intend to leave. look at strip clubs --- sorry 'gentleman clubs for wary business travelers': nearly all men go once, lots from time to time (with the guys) but few are regulars. for those that chose to 'test the water' nearly all would never leave if not caught. That's a good point. I don't think the expression "have your cake and eat it too" is a very good way to describe the actual intent of a broad enough spectrum of WS's to really make sense, though, because it seems to be saying that the WS is happy at home, and just wants some on the side. This idea can get discarded by an OW because WS says he is miserable at home. So in his target's mind, he can't be a "cake eater", he is an unhappy man caught in a bad marriage- must be an exit affair, he loves me and is going to leave BS. That's pretty logical. I wish it was called something else.
JustAReformedGirl Posted August 1, 2013 Posted August 1, 2013 If I had to guess? I'd say maybe 30% are cake-eaters, entirely only wanting something physical on the side, no emotions involved, and no intention of leaving their marriage. I'd say the remaining 70% is divided between leavers, reconcilers, and even of those who do neither? Very mixed up, emotionally devastated people.
Realist3 Posted August 1, 2013 Posted August 1, 2013 That's a good point. I don't think the expression "have your cake and eat it too" is a very good way to describe the actual intent of a broad enough spectrum of WS's to really make sense, though, because it seems to be saying that the WS is happy at home, and just wants some on the side. This idea can get discarded by an OW because WS says he is miserable at home. So in his target's mind, he can't be a "cake eater", he is an unhappy man caught in a bad marriage- must be an exit affair, he loves me and is going to leave BS. That's pretty logical. I wish it was called something else. I agree with this. It really depends on how it is defined. People here have labeled me a cake eater so that is fine with me, but under your definition I would be something else. Mine is not just a little on the side it is a full blown relationship from the emotional and physical side. This particular topic has statistics that are so all over the map to be literally worthless. The subject is so taboo that it is nearly impossible to determine if the respondants to any study are being truthful in their response. Scientific polls will show a margin of error; not the polls on this subject. You can see 40 points swings from one to the next which tells us basically nothing. Secondly, I would be careful of drawing any conclusions from what people may post here at LS, even the counselor(No offense to the counselor), because it can't be seen as a representitive slice of the pie. 2
ladydesigner Posted August 1, 2013 Posted August 1, 2013 If I had to guess? I'd say maybe 30% are cake-eaters, entirely only wanting something physical on the side, no emotions involved, and no intention of leaving their marriage. I'd say the remaining 70% is divided between leavers, reconcilers, and even of those who do neither? Very mixed up, emotionally devastated people. I have to say I definitely agree with this. 2
compulsivedancer Posted August 2, 2013 Posted August 2, 2013 I started off as a cake-eater. I tried to get it allowed; I wanted an open relationship, but when he eventually said no, I ended up cheating anyhow. I wanted to "have my cake and eat it too," but I wanted to explore all of the aspects of dating. I wanted to go out and have sex and experiment there, but at the same time, I enjoyed the intimacy and the relationship side too. And towards the end, I was starting to fall for AP. And I was starting to pull away from H and think about whether I wanted to leave him. So my role evolved as the A continued. Started one way, went another. I ended up staying, BTW. We're about 6 months into R. I never really wanted to leave, and there is little-to-no chance that me and AP would've ended up together, even briefly, if H and I had divorced. Early after DDay, I made plans in my head what I would do if H threw me out. I never considered trying to have a relationship with AP (in part because he has a long-term GF, and we made it clear early on that neither of us was interested in leaving our SO). More accurately, I considered the thought but rejected it. Ironically because I knew I'd never be able to trust him. 1
Author Betterthanthis13 Posted August 2, 2013 Author Posted August 2, 2013 I started off as a cake-eater. I tried to get it allowed; I wanted an open relationship, but when he eventually said no, I ended up cheating anyhow. I wanted to "have my cake and eat it too," but I wanted to explore all of the aspects of dating. I wanted to go out and have sex and experiment there, but at the same time, I enjoyed the intimacy and the relationship side too. And towards the end, I was starting to fall for AP. And I was starting to pull away from H and think about whether I wanted to leave him. So my role evolved as the A continued. Started one way, went another. I ended up staying, BTW. We're about 6 months into R. I never really wanted to leave, and there is little-to-no chance that me and AP would've ended up together, even briefly, if H and I had divorced. Early after DDay, I made plans in my head what I would do if H threw me out. I never considered trying to have a relationship with AP (in part because he has a long-term GF, and we made it clear early on that neither of us was interested in leaving our SO). More accurately, I considered the thought but rejected it. Ironically because I knew I'd never be able to trust him. I have to hand it to you, I really give you a lot of credit for having that conversation with H before having the A. I have an unpopular opinion on that topic. I feel that if you told him that you wanted an open marriage, he doesn't have the right to simply say no and expect you to accept his decision. I still think it was a bad choice to cheat- in that case I think the ethical choice would be to tell him, I'm sorry you feel that way- I want an open marriage and I am going to be pursuing that route, I'd like to do that together, if you are 100% opposed to giving it a try then you have the option to divorce me, but this is happening. Obviously, with a much nicer, loving tone and lots of conversations, I'm just summarizing my thoughts on the topic. You waved the red flag of all red flags right in front of his face and he did nothing. While that still doesn't justify cheating, it's a step in the right direction compared to WS's who don't even bother to inform the BS that they have desires beyond monogamy. At least you gave him the option. 3
thecharade Posted August 2, 2013 Posted August 2, 2013 You are hitting on such an important and complicated point which is that sometimes one spouse is expressing their unhappiness, sometimes screaming it! I complained, I told my H I wasn't attracted to him anymore, and I asked why that didn't bother him!!! No reaction. No concern. No change. My husband, not me, chose to hide from our problems because that's how he has handled all difficult problems. He did not "cause me" to do anything, and I feel much guilt. But I have worked my @ss off in this marriage, and my Mr. Nice Guy husband has been along for the ride. I could not handle one more minute of my needs going unmet. I had occasional suicidal thoughts and felt hopeless. Divorce was unfathomable. And the A, at first, felt like it was saving my soul. It wasn't, of course. But it was much better than offing myself with three young kids to look after. He just could not hear my cries of pre-A pain because he didn't want to. His needs were being met, and he did not want to change a thing. 4
compulsivedancer Posted August 2, 2013 Posted August 2, 2013 I have to hand it to you, I really give you a lot of credit for having that conversation with H before having the A. I have an unpopular opinion on that topic. I feel that if you told him that you wanted an open marriage, he doesn't have the right to simply say no and expect you to accept his decision. I still think it was a bad choice to cheat- in that case I think the ethical choice would be to tell him, I'm sorry you feel that way- I want an open marriage and I am going to be pursuing that route, I'd like to do that together, if you are 100% opposed to giving it a try then you have the option to divorce me, but this is happening. Obviously, with a much nicer, loving tone and lots of conversations, I'm just summarizing my thoughts on the topic. You waved the red flag of all red flags right in front of his face and he did nothing. While that still doesn't justify cheating, it's a step in the right direction compared to WS's who don't even bother to inform the BS that they have desires beyond monogamy. At least you gave him the option. We had a lot of conversations about it. I think he might have even been the one to bring up the open marriage thing that time. But ultimately he didn't think he could handle it, and now that we're here, I can definitely see that it would've been harder for him than for me. But I kind of found the idea of him with another woman as a bit of a turn-on. If I had given him the ultimatum: open marriage or nothing, he probably would've told me that I could choose to stay in the relationship or leave and have my experiences, that the choice was mine. There was no way I was going to choose to leave, so I couldn't do that. But that didn't change my desire to experiment, especially once I had a candidate on the table. I should've made the choice to stay and be faithful, but I was angry and excited and confused and lustful, and very interested in the AP - and clearly not thinking clearly.
compulsivedancer Posted August 2, 2013 Posted August 2, 2013 I was very unhappy, but most of it had to do with me and my feelings of self-worth, especially with my job situation at the time, not with my H. Our issues were actually based in the fact that he couldn't put himself in my shoes and understand why I was struggling. I was looking for external validation, and knowing that AP was interested was a huge ego boost; it helped, too, that he was better able to listen to and understand my struggles. Of course now I wonder if he was truly commiserating, or just playing along to get in my pants. Probably the second one.
JustAReformedGirl Posted August 2, 2013 Posted August 2, 2013 You are hitting on such an important and complicated point which is that sometimes one spouse is expressing their unhappiness, sometimes screaming it! I complained, I told my H I wasn't attracted to him anymore, and I asked why that didn't bother him!!! No reaction. No concern. No change. My husband, not me, chose to hide from our problems because that's how he has handled all difficult problems. He did not "cause me" to do anything, and I feel much guilt. But I have worked my @ss off in this marriage, and my Mr. Nice Guy husband has been along for the ride. I could not handle one more minute of my needs going unmet. I had occasional suicidal thoughts and felt hopeless. Divorce was unfathomable. And the A, at first, felt like it was saving my soul. It wasn't, of course. But it was much better than offing myself with three young kids to look after. He just could not hear my cries of pre-A pain because he didn't want to. His needs were being met, and he did not want to change a thing. Not the exact same as you and your H's situation, but a lot of similarities. My H seems to wrap himself in a bubble of denial. With everything that he knows (I won't say how much, or what) he's still acting as if there's nothing to be concerned about, doesn't take any action, etc. It's frustrating, because I don't want to sit idly, waiting for something to happen. But in order for a choice to be made, I need him to acknowledge that things are not okay, and are not getting any better. Again, like you...I don't blame him for what I've done. It seems to be a no-win situation, all around.
thecharade Posted August 2, 2013 Posted August 2, 2013 (edited) No. No blame, but shared ownership toward a solution and better days. I needed my H in our M, committed to my happiness, not just his own. My codependency had been benefitting him nicely until my D talk. And having an A woke me up to my own needs and gave me the strength to say, "I need things from this M or we get a D." I should have said it years ago, and I completely own that. I allowed him to be selfish and made him believe my needs were minimal. And then I had an A after doing that, still not understanding that I needed to stand up for myself. I was so stupid. I just couldn't see my role clearly. (I actually think my reasons are many, many MMs' reasons. Denying their own needs for far too long and then blaming their Ws for not meeting them. People want to be selfless, but we all do have needs. There's no shame in that.) Edited August 2, 2013 by thecharade 2
waterwoman Posted August 3, 2013 Posted August 3, 2013 No. No blame, but shared ownership toward a solution and better days. I needed my H in our M, committed to my happiness, not just his own. My codependency had been benefitting him nicely until my D talk. And having an A woke me up to my own needs and gave me the strength to say, "I need things from this M or we get a D." I should have said it years ago, and I completely own that. I allowed him to be selfish and made him believe my needs were minimal. And then I had an A after doing that, still not understanding that I needed to stand up for myself. I was so stupid. I just couldn't see my role clearly. (I actually think my reasons are many, many MMs' reasons. Denying their own needs for far too long and then blaming their Ws for not meeting them. People want to be selfless, but we all do have needs. There's no shame in that.) You sound like me. I was always second in our marriage, I allowed myself to be. Easier to make no demands. I coped by living in my own head a lot of the time. I put the kids before me as well when they arrived, and when h perceived himself as secondary to the children he got upset and the a followed. He was simply selfish, I was selfish in a more convoluted way.
Praying4Peace Posted August 3, 2013 Posted August 3, 2013 My work has me up close to divorce cases. 80% due to an affair where the W claims he left or is unable to fully R bc of an OW.
beatcuff Posted August 6, 2013 Posted August 6, 2013 ... I told my H I wasn't attracted to him anymore, and I asked why that didn't bother him!!! ... maybe his devastation at your statement was to withdraw?
Author Betterthanthis13 Posted August 6, 2013 Author Posted August 6, 2013 maybe his devastation at your statement was to withdraw? That's a good point.
LimeBlue Posted August 6, 2013 Posted August 6, 2013 I still think it was a bad choice to cheat- in that case I think the ethical choice would be to tell him, I'm sorry you feel that way- I want an open marriage and I am going to be pursuing that route, I'd like to do that together, if you are 100% opposed to giving it a try then you have the option to divorce me, but this is happening. Obviously, with a much nicer, loving tone and lots of conversations, I'm just summarizing my thoughts on the topic. You waved the red flag of all red flags right in front of his face and he did nothing. While that still doesn't justify cheating, it's a step in the right direction compared to WS's who don't even bother to inform the BS that they have desires beyond monogamy. At least you gave him the option. Much food for thought here... thank you.
LimeBlue Posted August 6, 2013 Posted August 6, 2013 No. No blame, but shared ownership toward a solution and better days. I needed my H in our M, committed to my happiness, not just his own. My codependency had been benefitting him nicely until my D talk. And having an A woke me up to my own needs and gave me the strength to say, "I need things from this M or we get a D." I should have said it years ago, and I completely own that. I allowed him to be selfish and made him believe my needs were minimal. And then I had an A after doing that, still not understanding that I needed to stand up for myself. I was so stupid. I just couldn't see my role clearly. (I actually think my reasons are many, many MMs' reasons. Denying their own needs for far too long and then blaming their Ws for not meeting them. People want to be selfless, but we all do have needs. There's no shame in that.) Exactly this, without having my A, I to this day would still be stuck in the same rut, still be the 'yes sir no sir' wife, I would still be in a shell and walking on egg shells. Having an affair was the best thing i have EVER done for myself in my life, and ever since then I have become stronger and more determined than ever to ensure i know where I am going in life along with getting my needs met. I do not regret my A not one little bit, and I will not be made out the bad one for doing it as it was nothing but good for me. 1
Speakingofwhich Posted August 6, 2013 Posted August 6, 2013 Secondly, I would be careful of drawing any conclusions from what people may post here at LS, even the counselor(No offense to the counselor), because it can't be seen as a representitive slice of the pie. Respectfully to the counselor, are most WS who leave BS for OW/OM, marry, and live happily ever after going to seek out counseling? I would think they'd spent so much time processing emotions and possibly in IC, etc, during the A and time of leaving that they want to enjoy actually living their lives and not continuing on in the processing stage by going to a counselor. I know of several happily married WS/OW couples (personal friends or parents of personal friends) whose M's have lasted decades. 1
Realist3 Posted August 6, 2013 Posted August 6, 2013 Respectfully to the counselor, are most WS who leave BS for OW/OM, marry, and live happily ever after going to seek out counseling? I would think they'd spent so much time processing emotions and possibly in IC, etc, during the A and time of leaving that they want to enjoy actually living their lives and not continuing on in the processing stage by going to a counselor. I know of several happily married WS/OW couples (personal friends or parents of personal friends) whose M's have lasted decades. Great points. I have read conflicting accounts on that subject. Some will say it hardly ever works out in terms of a lasting relationship. Others say that aside from the fallout(finances and children) those relationships end up being almost a perfect match. 2
Author Betterthanthis13 Posted August 6, 2013 Author Posted August 6, 2013 Exactly this, without having my A, I to this day would still be stuck in the same rut, still be the 'yes sir no sir' wife, I would still be in a shell and walking on egg shells. Having an affair was the best thing i have EVER done for myself in my life, and ever since then I have become stronger and more determined than ever to ensure i know where I am going in life along with getting my needs met. I do not regret my A not one little bit, and I will not be made out the bad one for doing it as it was nothing but good for me. Even as a BS who is 100% against cheating I can in all earnesty say that I am happy that you got the result you did from your A, and I would never in a million years wish upon you to be in a marriage that had you being a yes sir no sir wife, walking on eggshells. My only question is IF there was another way you could have accomplished the same result without having an affair, would you have chosen that option? I'm not even claiming that such an option exists- maybe it doesn't. I don't know. But hypothetically, if you could be who you are now, stronger and happier and not trapped in a bad marriage, and not have cheated, would you have taken that route? 3
KathyM Posted August 6, 2013 Posted August 6, 2013 Respectfully to the counselor, are most WS who leave BS for OW/OM, marry, and live happily ever after going to seek out counseling? I would think they'd spent so much time processing emotions and possibly in IC, etc, during the A and time of leaving that they want to enjoy actually living their lives and not continuing on in the processing stage by going to a counselor. I know of several happily married WS/OW couples (personal friends or parents of personal friends) whose M's have lasted decades. You are asking me for statistics to apply to the general population, which I would have to research in order to give an answer to that. Of the clients who I have seen in counseling who had left for their OW, they experienced problems in that subsequent relationship because of trust issues, and subsequent infidelity, which torpedoed the relationship.
Author Betterthanthis13 Posted August 6, 2013 Author Posted August 6, 2013 Great points. I have read conflicting accounts on that subject. Some will say it hardly ever works out in terms of a lasting relationship. Others say that aside from the fallout(finances and children) those relationships end up being almost a perfect match. I don't think that this result can be predicted and/or can be generalized with any accuracy at all, there are way too many variables involved. It's certainly possible that a WS/AP relationship can result in happiness long term, and certainly possible for it to result in disaster. What is known, is that fewer WS's choose to pursue a relationship with AP after Dday compared to BS so there is less data. 1
LimeBlue Posted August 6, 2013 Posted August 6, 2013 My only question is IF there was another way you could have accomplished the same result without having an affair, would you have chosen that option? I'm not even claiming that such an option exists- maybe it doesn't. I don't know. But hypothetically, if you could be who you are now, stronger and happier and not trapped in a bad marriage, and not have cheated, would you have taken that route? This is such a good question. And I have no clue what the answer is My A helped me see what was wrong in many areas of my life, not just my M. I guess I was truly exposed to so many things during my A that it was a big wake up call to the life I was living. When I had my A, I had NO money (and I do mean NO money, just a few bob in one account), I did not own the car I drove, I had no career, no after school education, did not know what I wanted, kept buggering about in a number of stupid jobs with no options for expansion, I had NO confidence whatsoever, and I had no idea what a narcissist was at the time. Now, six years later, due to having an A, I realized that all this needed to change and fast. I now have money saved, my car is in my name legally (I own nothing else, everything else is H), I am on the way with a fantastic career, I now have a degree, I now what I want both in life and relationships, no more silly little no go jobs, I am FAR more confidence in myself enabling me to call my H on his gaslighting, and I have learned what a narc is in order to better deal with my H and many others (they walk among us). I have no idea how I would have gotten here without my A. I really just do not know and I honestly believe that if it were not for my A, I would be in the exact same rut that I was six years ago. Edit to add: Yes I would do the A again. I have no regrets over it whatsoever. Not wanting to do it again would indicate regret or remorse. I have neither. 1
michelangelo Posted August 6, 2013 Posted August 6, 2013 All of us can provide experiences from our own lives, which means squat. Can any of you point to studies done by researchers?
So happy together Posted August 6, 2013 Posted August 6, 2013 I agree with this. It really depends on how it is defined. People here have labeled me a cake eater so that is fine with me, but under your definition I would be something else. Mine is not just a little on the side it is a full blown relationship from the emotional and physical side. This particular topic has statistics that are so all over the map to be literally worthless. The subject is so taboo that it is nearly impossible to determine if the respondants to any study are being truthful in their response. Scientific polls will show a margin of error; not the polls on this subject. You can see 40 points swings from one to the next which tells us basically nothing. Secondly, I would be careful of drawing any conclusions from what people may post here at LS, even the counselor(No offense to the counselor), because it can't be seen as a representitive slice of the pie. I'll take ANY statistic and find 10 studies that show the opposite.
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