Independence = Intimidation?

[soccerrprp]

So i've been single for 2 years every since my ex cheated and left me for this girl and dating has been a nightmare. People tell me i'm beautiful and have a lot to offer. I'm 34, no kids, have my own house, car and a good job, college degrees..but i feel this intimidates guys. So what am i supposed to do sell my house, tell them i'm uneducated, and hold up a sign saying i'm needy? Do i have to do this to get a man not to be intimidated!? I mean i've even tried to lower my standards and i wound up dealing with an alcoholic a few months ago who peed on my floor from being drunk and when i told him what he did he blocks my number. I have guy friends and associates and they say an independent woman doesn't intimidate them and that im focusing on the wrong men...but geez this is a little depressing for me. Maybe i'm focusing on boys or insecure men( such as the alcoholic and my ex) and not looking in the right places!? Any advice? Women what do u think!? Guys reading this would u be intimidated by me!?

 

I am not in the least intimidated. I have dated independent lawyers, doctors and intimidation did not come into play in the least. My view is that there are men who are intimidated, so what? That's their loss. It has little to do with be role/gender reversal, all to do with self-confidence and insecurity and frankly, the independent woman's attitude on said issues. Some women come across as jerks, but I haven't dated anyone like that, thank goodness.

 

There are plenty of men who prefer strong, independent, successful women. I'm one. Love 'em! It's not your house or your job...it's either your personality or frankly, like I said earlier, the men you date are not interested/offended by having to share equal duty in a relationship. They want to be the ALPHA period.

 

Do you come across as a jerk? Self-entitled? Aggressive? No matter what gender, status, such characteristics are bad, bad, bad.

[crude]

I think the OP is just picking guys who are bad for her, and as far as the peeing alcoholic is concerned, bad for anyone.

And to Geiss, you said your level is low, does that mean you don't make lots of money? If so, then you wouldn't be a very good breadwinner, which by your own definition means you're not much of a man! Why should a woman achieve less in her life than she's capable of just to pander to someone who's not much of a man? Just relax, stop with the stereotyped roles, and be a person. It's not as bad as you think. If a consequence of feminism is people being able to do what they're best at, I like it.

[Geiss]

I am not in the least intimidated. I have dated independent lawyers, doctors and intimidation did not come into play in the least. My view is that there are men who are intimidated, so what? That's their loss. It has little to do with be role/gender reversal, all to do with self-confidence and insecurity and frankly, the independent woman's attitude on said issues. Some women come across as jerks, but I haven't dated anyone like that, thank goodness.

 

There are plenty of men who prefer strong, independent, successful women. I'm one. Love 'em! It's not your house or your job...it's either your personality or frankly, like I said earlier, the men you date are not interested/offended by having to share equal duty in a relationship. They want to be the ALPHA period.

 

Do you come across as a jerk? Self-entitled? Aggressive? No matter what gender, status, such characteristics are bad, bad, bad.

 

Yes well we'll see how things go once you marry one of these women and have a kid and you become a stay at home dad. That is gender reversal of traditional roles which are being destroyed. And to disastrous results I might add. Good luck. I'm still unsure what makes a woman strong for being independent. I'm independent too so does that make me strong? I think it reeks of arrogance.

[ChessPieceFace]

Yeah u r right. Something is wrong with me that a guy can say not interested before he knows anything about me, this site is so full of attacking people!!!

 

We do know things about you from your posts. You're confrontational and unable to take criticism. If you're established you can afford therapy, look into that.

[Geiss]

I think the OP is just picking guys who are bad for her, and as far as the peeing alcoholic is concerned, bad for anyone.

And to Geiss, you said your level is low, does that mean you don't make lots of money? If so, then you wouldn't be a very good breadwinner, which by your own definition means you're not much of a man! Why should a woman achieve less in her life than she's capable of just to pander to someone who's not much of a man? Just relax, stop with the stereotyped roles, and be a person. It's not as bad as you think. If a consequence of feminism is people being able to do what they're best at, I like it.

 

Yeah, right now I don't make a lot and I struggle to get by. I don't have a house and I doubt I ever will. And I know I wouldn't be a good breadwinner which means I won't get married anytime soon. If some girl told me she was a doctor or lawyer or whatever, had a house and nice cars and blah blah blah, yeah I would have to say no to that. I guess I'm not a man but neither are those other guys that live off a woman. I'd rather be me then them. I never said the women can't achieve. She just better be ready for the consequences. A lot of men are not willing to give up their traditional roles especially since it really hasn't been replaced with anything except to do nothing. Or be the women of the relationship. No the consequence is that these women will be unmarried or dissatisfied or be alone. That's the consequence. Success in the job doesn't equal success in romance.

[crude]

A lot of men are not willing to give up their traditional roles especially since it really hasn't been replaced with anything except to do nothing.

 

 

That's their problem, they're not willing to give up a traditional role. But why not, many women can make more money than most men, and many men have more patience or desire to be with the kids. Why force people to fit into traditional roles that just hurt many people. Where I grew up, there were guys who worked 70 hours a week who were strangers to their own children. Their wives could've worked 40 hours and made as much or more, so the kids could've had two parents. What was so smart about forcing themselves into the stereotyped roles? Everyone came out a loser.

[soccerrprp]

Yes well we'll see how things go once you marry one of these women and have a kid and you become a stay at home dad. That is gender reversal of traditional roles which are being destroyed. And to disastrous results I might add. Good luck. I'm still unsure what makes a woman strong for being independent. I'm independent too so does that make me strong? I think it reeks of arrogance.

 

Married for 12+ years to an elegant, independent woman. Both worked. Changed more diapers and stayed up more nights with kids than she did. Not an issue. If I were married to a woman who made tons of money and asked to stay home with kids, would do it. Nothing unhealthy about that, only for the (too) proud male psyche that doesn't see relationships as a partnership.

 

I'm sorry, but did the OP every suggest that her partner be a stay-home dad?

 

BTW, just b/c it's traditional doesn't make it better. Though the "trend" is in the direction of more in-home dads, well, there's only one way to go. I don't see anyone complaining (objectively) that that is destroying the family unit. We live in a different time. Men should feel a little more "free", but many place undue self-inflicted harm to themselves. You can be a man and not have to be burdened by ALL of the worries of the world. There's a reason why men die earlier...

[Geiss]

That's their problem, they're not willing to give up a traditional role. But why not, many women can make more money than most men, and many men have more patience or desire to be with the kids. Why force people to fit into traditional roles that just hurt many people. Where I grew up, there were guys who worked 70 hours a week who were strangers to their own children. Their wives could've worked 40 hours and made as much or more, so the kids could've had two parents. What was so smart about forcing themselves into the stereotyped roles? Everyone came out a loser.

 

Well that's the way it is. Lots of men are not willing to give up that role. But then again lots of men are not even getting married anymore. Marriage rates are plummeting. And career women have less kids then non career women. A lot of them don't even want a family.

 

What are you talking about that men have more patience or desire to be with the kids. Since when.

 

70 hours a week my ass. Most people don't do that. And I have and you can't keep that pace up forever. Unless someone is cracking a whip behind you. And at least they had their mother at home. So you want her to work which somehow will get the guy out of his 70 hour week so they can both be exhausted after work and tell the kid after they get them from daycare to play some video games until bedtime. Who's the winner?

[Geiss]

Married for 12+ years to an elegant, independent woman. Both worked. Changed more diapers and stayed up more nights with kids than she did. Not an issue. If I were married to a woman who made tons of money and asked to stay home with kids, would do it. Nothing unhealthy about that, only for the (too) proud male psyche that doesn't see relationships as a partnership.

 

I'm sorry, but did the OP every suggest that her partner be a stay-home dad?

 

BTW, just b/c it's traditional doesn't make it better. Though the "trend" is in the direction of more in-home dads, well, there's only one way to go. I don't see anyone complaining (objectively) that that is destroying the family unit. We live in a different time. Men should feel a little more "free", but many place undue self-inflicted harm to themselves. You can be a man and not have to be burdened by ALL of the worries of the world. There's a reason why men die earlier...

 

You don't seem to realize the problem with female breadwinners. You say it will work for you but you aren't currently doing that. So how do you know for sure. That your wife won't look down on you. Or your kid. Or your friends.

 

I told the OP that it can very well be a problem for a guy to want to date someone significantly more accomplished then they are. It's not rocket science. A lot of guys will find it emasculating unless they are leeches or junkies or male gold diggers. I'm not surprised many men would have a problem with it. I'm saying I would have a problem with it. I'm not sure how you can feel like a real man when you are the woman. Basically you are.

[Geiss]

<Quote>Married for 12+ years to an elegant, independent woman. Both worked. Changed more diapers and stayed up more nights with kids than she did. Not an issue. If I were married to a woman who made tons of money and asked to stay home with kids, would do it. Nothing unhealthy about that, only for the (too) proud male psyche that doesn't see relationships as a partnership.

 

I'm sorry, but did the OP every suggest that her partner be a stay-home dad?

 

BTW, just b/c it's traditional doesn't make it better. Though the "trend" is in the direction of more in-home dads, well, there's only one way to go. I don't see anyone complaining (objectively) that that is destroying the family unit. We live in a different time. Men should feel a little more "free", but many place undue self-inflicted harm to themselves. You can be a man and not have to be burdened by ALL of the worries of the world. There's a reason why men die earlier...</Quote>

 

 

 

Are you sure your wife after a long time of you being the stay at home dad would not get jealous of all the time you are spending with the kids, going to the park, playing and taking them to school and helping with homework meanwhile she is working lots of hours and worried about paying the bills. And she won't start resenting you. And disrespecting you. Then you will find out the hard way when the divorce papers hit you in the face.

[soccerrprp]

You don't seem to realize the problem with female breadwinners. You say it will work for you but you aren't currently doing that. So how do you know for sure. That your wife won't look down on you. Or your kid. Or your friends.

 

I told the OP that it can very well be a problem for a guy to want to date someone significantly more accomplished then they are. It's not rocket science. A lot of guys will find it emasculating unless they are leeches or junkies or male gold diggers. I'm not surprised many men would have a problem with it. I'm saying I would have a problem with it. I'm not sure how you can feel like a real man when you are the woman. Basically you are.

 

Geiss,

 

I hear you man. You, you would feel insecure, but there are men who don't. You're right, I'm not in that situation now, are you? Have you spoken to men who are and are they telling you just how emasculating it is?

 

Personally, as of right now, I would not object to such an arrangement. Perhaps the idea sounds nice, but the reality wouldn't, but not ALL men feel as you do. And it's not b/c they are gold-diggers, leeches or junkies.

 

The only thing that makes you a man (objectively) is your penis. I'm currently looking for a single woman, successful physician that makes 6-figures (a lot more money than me)...is that so wrong? Of course there needs to be love and commitment, but give me that lady and I'll make it work regardless of how much more she makes. The most important thing is that she realizes that it is a partnership, no single person having more power or say....possible? Of course it is.

[Woggle]

Men hate feeling disposable in a relationship and sometimes women like this make them feel not needed.

[crude]

Men hate feeling disposable in a relationship and sometimes women like this make them feel not needed.

If a woman loves you, wants to be married and have children with you, and makes the kind of money to support a family, it sounds to me like she wants you and you're not disposable. In a conventional relationship, a woman goes looking for some chump with $$$ to support her because she doesn't want to work. Those are the guys that are disposable and lose everything in a divorce for example.

[Woggle]

If a woman loves you, wants to be married and have children with you, and makes the kind of money to support a family, it sounds to me like she wants you and you're not disposable. In a conventional relationship, a woman goes looking for some chump with $$$ to support her because she doesn't want to work. Those are the guys that are disposable and lose everything in a divorce for example.

 

I agree but the whole I don't need a man mentality did not help independent women who do want relationships with men. You spend the past couple decades telling men how not needed we are and don't surprised when we go where we know we are needed.

[charlietheginger]

Could be your attitude if you use the rules dating book

It scares men off.....

 

Rule always play hard to get problem

If you sound like your doing so well on your own the

Men might feel as if your to out of reach and might not

Go for you. So be more laid back return phone calls,

don't cancel dates, show intrest in the men ask them about

Thier hobbies,music,recreational activities. Don't have

A me me me attitude show interest in the men.

 

Rule never talk to a man first wait days to return phone calls

Never do this if you don't return calls right away he assumea

Your not interested.

 

Rule never compliment a man avoid this rule

If a man after a few dates tells you how beautiful you

Look or nice the dress you are wearing is pick something

About him and say " that shirt really matches your eyes"

Or "the time you put in the gym shows"

 

what's his job? Doesn't matter as long as he has a steady job

So when his job and income come up. Chances are its less

Money then you make so use simple words" hey its great you

Have a job lots of americans in this economy dont have jobs"

 

Focus on the man make him feel comfortable. Take less

Of a me me me approach show genuine interest

 

That's its simple advice dont focus on your house job

And degrees.

[surferchic]

OP, I'm interested in finding out what your family dynamics were growing up. This is a crucial point of reference that people for some reason neglect. Just because we're adults doesn't mean we automatically have things figured out. Relationship navigation takes skill and know how. If you don't have he tools you have to get hthem and that's not always easy when you've gone most of your life doing what you THINK is right...

 

I'm not defending anyone just stating facts. All the men you've dated may not have been intimidated but I'm sure some of them have been.

 

I've been in similar situations where I'd question what I was doing wrong. One discovery I made was that during my most financially unstable times, I had a man for a longer period of time. perhaps it was partially related to a "beggars can't be choosers" mentality... although I would still be my outspoken self, just not about every little thing.

 

I say all this to try and help brainstorm what the issue really is. Several posters in this thread made good points about you perhaps being too confrontational. I'm the same way at times and I'm independent because I HAVE to be. Grew up in single family house hold.Mom was doing everything. that's what I witnessed. Family always tell us females:

 

"Be independent so you dont have to depend on a man for what you want!"

 

I've had to check myself,my attitude and all at times when it comes to this because I feel like my family is not completely right when drilling this in my head,fresh!. When this is all we hear and see, its almost impossible to act on a way that will nurture the ego and natural being of a man with gender roles in perspective. I don't want to always be independent. I'm not rich but I can pay my bills. I'm posting in here to help the dialogue continue and to get help for women who mistake independence for necessary tools to keep a man, when it often times just pushes men away because a women who is very independent sometimes exudes so much pride and confidence that men feel almost emasculated.

 

Hope to hear more about this topic. Great conversation!

[Tinie]

Geiss why are you so bitter? Yeesh.

 

If a woman wants to go out and get a higher education and get a high paying job, she can! The right man will honour and respect that.

 

Not every woman wants to be stuck cooking in the kitchen, cleaning floors and popping out children while mooching off her husband.

 

OP you need to relax. No one said you're ugly.

[Keenly]

That's their problem, they're not willing to give up a traditional role. But why not, many women can make more money than most men, and many men have more patience or desire to be with the kids. Why force people to fit into traditional roles that just hurt many people. Where I grew up, there were guys who worked 70 hours a week who were strangers to their own children. Their wives could've worked 40 hours and made as much or more, so the kids could've had two parents. What was so smart about forcing themselves into the stereotyped roles? Everyone came out a loser.

 

Why force men that don't want to be in non traditional roles, into non traditional roles.

 

 

This is where the thinking starts to become so flawed.

 

Because woman A doesn't want to conform to the female gender role, she picks up some more male related responsibilities. That's awesome, if it just ended at that.

 

But what ends up happening is these women end up demonizing the men that do not want to change their gender role at all, like THEY are the ones doing something different.

 

Just let people make their own damn choices. Some men want 100% gender roles. Some men want reversed gender roles. Who cares, as long as you find some one that matches your %.

[amaysngrace]

Oh ok im ugly now!! Lol! You're right being ugly will get me no where in life. Gosh i wish i wasnt so ugly to get thay alcoholic to unblock my number or to bring my ex back. If my ugly face just wasnt so ugly i could get u to like me. I m do ugly and unattractive no one looks at me and meen run. Lol. That what u want to here!? Lol!!!

 

You don't really post like an educated person.

[TheGuard13]

I seriously doubt this has much to do with having your own house, car and a good job.

[Geiss]

Geiss why are you so bitter? Yeesh.

 

If a woman wants to go out and get a higher education and get a high paying job, she can! The right man will honour and respect that.

 

Not every woman wants to be stuck cooking in the kitchen, cleaning floors and popping out children while mooching off her husband.

 

OP you need to relax. No one said you're ugly.

 

They can go and do it all they want but just don't be surprised if there is a lack of men willing to date them. Women generally want to date up and the pool of men at the top is shrinking. And usually those men want younger girls and they want to date down. And then the guys not on the same level don't want to date women that are doing much better than them. It's a blow to their ego and as I said before emasculating.

 

Personally for myself I knew I wasn't in a good position financially and living with my parents until just recently thank goodness and having no car which now I do I didn't even feel worthy of dating. I was completely embarrassed at saying I live at home with my parents. How would that sound to some girl that owns her own home and makes loads of money and has nice cars and all that. She would make me feel like a loser, a piece of **** and I would most likely not be able to relate to her. So I would prefer someone more on my level. If you are doing well yourself, close to her or surpassing her level then it wouldn't bother you. But these guys if they have lots of money will date younger girls. Also It might not bother some guys that aren't as accomplished as the OP is but you might have to weary of their intentions. It's the curse of the career woman.

[Cressida]

I don't think you're construing 'independence' in the right way. Independent is someone like you, pretty much, who has her own thing together, has a job, an education, doesn't have issues (debt, alcoholism, drugs, nasty custody battles, jail etc), is a perfectly 'good on paper' person. I am absolutely sure 100% of the men out there would choose someone like that over someone who doesn't have it together.

However, you must focus on yourself a little bit. We all make mistakes and now you're getting a little too emotional over something said on a forum (at the end of the day, everybody here's just an identity behind a screen). I don't think anyone wanted to imply you're ugly, unattractive or dumb.

Please don't lower your standards. It will get you in a downward spiral from where it'll be very hard to get out.

Try to get more active on the social life. Many women think prince charming is going to pop up while they're standing in line at the ATM or waiting to get their dog checked. U must go out there and place yourself in the limelight. Go to social events, join a gym, a club, anything. It might be that u're tired after working full time but that's what you gotta do if you want to get a chance at meeting potential partners.

Don't get involved into relationships where the other person has serious problems or is way 'inferior' to you. You're not their shrink or their mother. Let them solve their issues and then consider being with them.

It's always a karmic thing I guess, the more you push it the less is likely to happen. Don't get discouraged and think that if you couldn't make it work with some low-life dude, it means you're not good enough. It is NOT true. You've just been hanging with the wrong crowd. Befriend someone with the same interests as you, from the same background, do activities together (go out dancing, parties, etc). It can help.

Nobody knows anything about anyone until they get to KNOW them, which can take months/years. Play your best cards, be patient, always diversify. Don't pine for men, just move on and save your time.

[RogerWallace111]

From what you say I don't think it's about independence or intimidation. It's just hard to find fitting partners. There's a huge spectrum of "types" of people so finding one who matches up to you relatively closely can be very difficult.

 

If you were super wealthy, in some high power job, or were super-accomplished/respected in a more meaningful, non-financial way I suppose there are guys who would be scared of you. Though even then I personally wouldn't be intimidated- people are just people. Well, if I were dating a woman and she actually acted like she didn't "need" me, that'd be one thing. But hopefully we all know money/status & actual love aren't correlated, so if the person actually loved you it would only be an issue of personal insecurity.

 

Then again, to many (on this forum and real world) actual feelings/connection don't seem to be of as much importance as on-paper compatibility and other dumbass sh*t of that ilk.

Edited July 30, 2013 by RogerWallace111

[Cressida]

From what you say I don't think it's about independence or intimidation. It's just hard to find fitting partners. There's a huge spectrum of "types" of people so finding one who matches up to you relatively closely can be very difficult.

 

If you were super wealthy, in some high power job, or were super-accomplished/respected in a more meaningful, non-financial way I suppose there are guys who would be scared of you. Though even then I personally wouldn't be intimidated- people are just people. Well, if I were dating a woman and she actually acted like she didn't "need" me, that'd be one thing. But hopefully we all know money/status & actual love aren't correlated, so if the person actually loved you it would only be an issue of personal insecurity.

 

Then again, to many (on this forum and real world) actual feelings/connection don't seem to be of as much importance as on-paper compatibility and other dumbass sh*t of that ilk.

 

If a woman has a high-powered career or lots of money and a silver spoon, or is just wealthy and accomplished she would roll ONLY with that type of crowd. I have yet to see Prince Harry dating the Dunkin Donuts counter girl. People tend to choose partners from the same/very similar social backgrounds when they have relationships, at least serious or long-term. Dating can be a pain in the a$$ if you step outside your pool, especially as a woman.

But she should just look for someone in her social category, with the same interests, values, future prospects and plans. I'm not trying to be Marie Antoinette here but it is perfectly logical and statistically proven that one has a better chance at having a successful, healthy relationship if one sticks with one's peers, OR for a woman to aim at something slightly superior. NOT inferior. It'll never work because women want a family, a provider, someone you can take at the office/parents' Christmas party. Guess she can't do that with a wino who doesn't even have a place to crash. No offense but we're all grown ups so let's think like some.

[BluEyeL]

They can go and do it all they want but just don't be surprised if there is a lack of men willing to date them. Women generally want to date up and the pool of men at the top is shrinking. And usually those men want younger girls and they want to date down. And then the guys not on the same level don't want to date women that are doing much better than them. It's a blow to their ego and as I said before emasculating.

 

Personally for myself I knew I wasn't in a good position financially and living with my parents until just recently thank goodness and having no car which now I do I didn't even feel worthy of dating. I was completely embarrassed at saying I live at home with my parents. How would that sound to some girl that owns her own home and makes loads of money and has nice cars and all that. She would make me feel like a loser, a piece of **** and I would most likely not be able to relate to her. So I would prefer someone more on my level. If you are doing well yourself, close to her or surpassing her level then it wouldn't bother you. But these guys if they have lots of money will date younger girls. Also It might not bother some guys that aren't as accomplished as the OP is but you might have to weary of their intentions. It's the curse of the career woman.

 

There is some truth in this, the dating pool for truly high achieving women in their 40s and up is smaller than for women in their 20s, but the reality is not so grim though, there are options and if there is a will, there is a way. I know first hand. It's really up to the individual, you are stereotyping mostly, but there are people and people. There are men with good jobs etc., who cannot relate to 20yo girls and will choose someone closer to their age, for various reasons. Yes, I wouldn't date someone with no life goals and who lives home with the parents, is not that you wouldn't date a powerful woman, she wouldn't date you either, it's just not a match.