Defense of BS Who R

[Eggplant]

It's wrong when betrayed spouses are shamed for reconciling. They are belittled for being a doormat, when often they are choosing to do what they believe is in their best interest. That choice is their prerogative, and it's nobody's place to judge what somebody else rightfully wants for himself or herself.

 

It wouldn't surprise me that for many BS, the best path forward for their personal health and happiness in life is to continue with their family in tact. I just finished reading Social Intelligence by Daniel Goleman. The book cited some studies that found that generally women's health is affected more by their relationships and marriages than men's. Women in particular usually are happier with more close relationships and experience more stress from their marriages. Additionally, the book evaluated the effect of relationships on a person's health and longevity. Even some toxic relationships were not as destructive to a person's health as isolation. The point is that meaningful close relationships like that between a husband and wife can be extremely valuable to a person's health and well-being and quality of life. A husband with whom a woman has built a life and children and who loves her is an invaluable asset. Particularly since nobody is perfect -- to only accept relationships with perfect people would mean a life of solitude.

 

Equally valid is the decision to kick the cheater to the curb -- that is what he or she deserves, and if the BS believes that the person is toxic and that that is what he or she wants, that is also equally his or her prerogative. However, a BS might deem that cutting off the WS would hurt the BS more than forgiving the WS would, as awfully unjust as that is. I think people out of anger want the WS to pay, but the BS shouldn't have to sacrifice what the BS does not want to to appease other people. It's an unfair situation.

 

What does irk me is that some OP on LS denigrate the BS's dignity for not immediately divorcing the WS. This hypocrisy is maddening. To the OP, the cheater in question, despite his or her clear character faults, was such a needed source of love that the OP sank to the low level of pursuing a married person, often disrupting a family with children, and stepping on innocent people to get that coveted love. That OP then talks about dignity, but the OP knows the OP is simply after a precious resource and the OP's own personal well-being.

 

Have BS on this forum who reconciled faced this kind of judgment?

Do OP on this forum judge BS for wanting to reconcile?

Do WS on this forum take advantage of being a "resource"?

[KathyM]

I question if anyone judges a BS for reconciling with a WS who was truly remorseful and did everything he could to make amends and rebuild the marriage. I think when people consider a BS a doormat is when she keeps taking the guy back time after time if he is a serial cheater, or taking a guy back that continues the affair or after more than one dday. I know women who have continued to put up with infidelity and stayed in the marriage regardless. Those I would consider to have doormat status (if you'll excuse the expression), if they continue to enable a man to behave like an ass and don't leave him.

[dichotomy]

BH here. I get what you’re saying.

 

I have avoided discussing all the reasons I decided to not end the marriage because not only might it come off as me be weak, it might also come off with me sounding like I am staying in it for the wrong reasons, selfish reasons, or for spiritual reasons that not all would agree with.

 

I think the reasons for staying or not staying, reconciling or not, are very personal. I do know where my boundaries are - and there are a number of things that would cross that boundary and cause me to end the marriage, but those have not happened yet.

Edited July 26, 2013 by dichotomy

[underwater2010]

You can count me in.

 

My kids and our history together should be enough to put the "doormat" theory to rest. Add to that the fact is my FWH has only had an affair once. I believe in a second chance but will not be burned more than once.

 

And isn't it funny that the OW/MOW/OM/MOM that professes how weak and shameful the BS is are the first ones to spout out how much they "love" their MOM/MOW. And how we are the ones who "tricked" them into staying. They are rarely the ones that realize their AP DID NOT leave for them and majority of the time chose to stay in their marriage.

[dichotomy]

I question if anyone judges a BS for reconciling with a WS who was truly remorseful and did everything he could to make amends and rebuild the marriage. I think when people consider a BS a doormat is when she keeps taking the guy back time after time if he is a serial cheater, or taking a guy back that continues the affair or after more than one dday. I know women who have continued to put up with infidelity and stayed in the marriage regardless. Those I would consider to have doormat status (if you'll excuse the expression), if they continue to enable a man to behave like an ass and don't leave him.

 

What if there was no serial cheating or continuation after dDay,there was a clear break and stop (NC).... but WS was not really remorseful?

 

Would you call "doormat staus" for BS staying?

 

As OP says, there are many reasons BS stay.

[ladydesigner]

I question if anyone judges a BS for reconciling with a WS who was truly remorseful and did everything he could to make amends and rebuild the marriage. I think when people consider a BS a doormat is when she keeps taking the guy back time after time if he is a serial cheater, or taking a guy back that continues the affair or after more than one dday. I know women who have continued to put up with infidelity and stayed in the marriage regardless. Those I would consider to have doormat status (if you'll excuse the expression), if they continue to enable a man to behave like an ass and don't leave him.

 

I'm not sure this is fair to say to us BS's that have dealt with multiple DDays and broken NC. I couldn't prove my WH's first A, but definitely had clues. It wasn't until his A with MOW that my eyes opened up and my rose colored glasses fell off. I never dealt with his bad boundaries early on. I don't think I effectively did things the right way after his first A. My WH did not hit bottom until I kicked him out and made an appointment with a lawyer. Plus the fallout has been brutal for him and me. I do not think of myself as a doormat. I love this man with all my heart and I honestly think THIS time he does want to put his best foot forward. But time will tell.

[Eggplant]

I know women who have continued to put up with infidelity and stayed in the marriage regardless. Those I would consider to have doormat status (if you'll excuse the expression), if they continue to enable a man to behave like an ass and don't leave him.

 

If the doormats in question left, how easily, in your opinion, would they find another husband whom they loved?

[drifter777]

eggplant: which one are you? BS, WS, or OW?

[Eggplant]

Those I would consider to have doormat status (if you'll excuse the expression), if they continue to enable a man to behave like an ass and don't leave him.

Also, if the woman left the ass, who would pay the bigger price? Would they suffer equally? Does the ass have a lot of women waiting to accept him and love him?

[Eggplant]

eggplant: which one are you? BS, WS, or OW?

OW for 15 months. I didn't know he had a wife. I loved him, but I cut contact immediately when I found out.

[KathyM]

What if there was no serial cheating or continuation after dDay,there was a clear break and stop (NC).... but WS was not really remorseful?

 

Would you call "doormat staus" for BS staying?

 

As OP says, there are many reasons BS stay.

Yes, there are varied reasons why BSs stay in the marriage. If a BS stayed and his/her WS was not remorseful for his betrayal, I would question why the BS would want to allow themselves to be so devalued. To stay in a marriage where there was no love or respect, and your feelings did not matter to the WS, but his philandering was given more value by him. That would be such utter disrespect IMO, that I would question the BSs level of self esteem if they were to take a cheating man/woman back who had no remorse whatsoever. It's like the WS saying "I don't care about you or what you want, I'll do what I damn well please, and maybe now that I've been caught, I'll stop, but I don't regret doing this." That, to me, is incredibly disrespectful and lacking in any love or caring, and to put up with that attitude is allowing your WS to continue to mistreat you. I can't imagine staying with someone like that.

[2sure]

My x was a serial cheater. He came into the marriage with the problem. Our relationship had nothing to do with the cheating and his affair partners were not important. SO, there were multiple Ddays. I acknowledged he had a personal problem and as hard as it was, I loved him, and decided to try to help him. for myself, for our family, and also for him. he was otherwise a good person. he was my friend.

 

It didn't work out. I wasn't able to help him, he was not able to help himself.

Regardless, the sex he had with other people was not the end all deal breaker for me. I knew, having been OW in my past, that the affairs themselves were not important...it was the issue that resulted in them.

 

And although my X was a serial cheater, with an obvious addiction, or character issue...there are also many BS who grasp that after DDay #1....everything is not automatically over. Their WS , although wanting to work on the marriage can't simply erase any bond they had with AP. For a WS who swept marriage problems aside and had an affair rather than address them...neither spouse knows exactly how to solve ten or twenty years of an issue simply because it's a day or week or month after DDay. Reconciling a marriage is a major overhaul and change. There are hard times, there is backsliding. The infidelity itself, may not be the largest of their issues. They may be making serious progress in other areas.

 

As to when someone becomes a "door mat" who is anyone else to say? My opinion, would be someone who is no longer happy with themselves and just gives up. Note that there are some spouses who are happy enough with their lives hat their spouses infidelities are just something they can't be bothered making important. That doesn't make them a doormat.

 

But reconciling a marriage to me, comes Down to...the spouses have decided that infidelity is something they would like to get past. A multiple DDay doesn't automatically change that. For either.

[KathyM]

I'm not sure this is fair to say to us BS's that have dealt with multiple DDays and broken NC. I couldn't prove my WH's first A, but definitely had clues. It wasn't until his A with MOW that my eyes opened up and my rose colored glasses fell off. I never dealt with his bad boundaries early on. I don't think I effectively did things the right way after his first A. My WH did not hit bottom until I kicked him out and made an appointment with a lawyer. Plus the fallout has been brutal for him and me. I do not think of myself as a doormat. I love this man with all my heart and I honestly think THIS time he does want to put his best foot forward. But time will tell.

How can you love someone who continues to disrespect and disregard your feelings? Someone who continues to betray you and puts his own selfish sexual desires ahead of you, your marriage, your well being, your love? A man like that doesn't deserve your love.

[KathyM]

If the doormats in question left, how easily, in your opinion, would they find another husband whom they loved?

That depends on what the BS has to offer, of course. To stay in an unhealthy marriage where a BS is continually betrayed and disrespected is not a good option, IMO. It takes a huge toll on a person's self esteem, ability to trust, and quality of life. That is no place to be. I would feel very sorry for a woman who stayed with a man who continued to treat her so badly, and a woman who felt staying with such a man was her best option or her only option.

[KathyM]

Also, if the woman left the ass, who would pay the bigger price? Would they suffer equally? Does the ass have a lot of women waiting to accept him and love him?

What price do you put on your dignity? Your self respect? Leaving a man who has no respect for you and treats you so badly that he would continue to have affairs regardless of what it does to you would be a lot less costly than staying in a marriage where you continue to be abused and disrespected. No amount of money is worth being treated so badly. No children are better off in a marriage where one spouse is continually abused and disrespected, where the marriage is a sham, and there is nothing left of it except a piece of paper.

[drifter777]

OW for 15 months. I didn't know he had a wife. I loved him, but I cut contact immediately when I found out.

Ok, now I understand your somewhat academic analysis of the dynamics between a BS and their WS. Until you've been there it is impossible to understand, but I respect your curiosity.

 

For many of us, especially BH's, any shame of reconciling comes from within. We know we are settling for a cheating wife - something we never imagined would be possible - and can be overwhelmed with shame that we are so weak as to accept the unacceptable. Whatever the reason the BH expresses, the reason is generally fear. Fear of abandonment, fear of starting over; even the fear that leaving will expose them as the kind of man who's spouse would cheat on. Personally, my fear paralyzed me and I stayed with her hoping that the old adage "time heals all wounds" would save me. It didn't.

 

I consider my decision to try to reconcile to be the biggest mistake of my life. Now, many years later, I have accepted that my wife was a lying slut for a short period of time, but I have no desire to punish her now for the person she was back then. She has proven over decades that she is not that same person, although my memories of that horror will never be gone. I've accepted that too and only hope that the sharpness of my self-judgement will continue to dull a bit each year.

 

I completely reject your opinion that "nobody is perfect -- to only accept relationships with perfect people would mean a life of solitude". All we want is a person with enough character to keep their marriage promise of fidelity. Also, the studies that people living in a bad marriage (i.e. one ravaged by infidelity) are "healthier" then those living in solitude seems to ignore the possibility that living without the cheater may provide more peace of mind for the BS.

Edited July 26, 2013 by drifter777

[Eggplant]

I completely reject your opinion that "nobody is perfect -- to only accept relationships with perfect people would mean a life of solitude". All we want is a person with enough character to keep their marriage promise of fidelity. Also, the studies that people living in a bad marriage (i.e. one ravaged by infidelity) are "healthier" then those living in solitude seems to ignore the possibility that living without the cheater may provide more peace of mind for the BS.

 

As a natural introvert, my whole life I have always elected solitude over toxic friendships and relationships. This part of the book was what surprised me most -- it ranked toxic relationships as less damaging than solitude! I wonder about that...

 

I have been exposed to a multitude of attitudes and statistics about infidelity, and I'm trying to understand how big a deal it is, how frequent, what it means, etc. I have to develop relationships with real people, with real flaws -- what is reasonable? What isn't? What does it mean when a person cheats? Is it the same when a man cheats and a woman cheats?

 

So your answer to the question of how big a crime infidelity is seems to be that cheating is utterly unreasonable and not to be tolerated, right?

[Owl]

I've had many people...posters on this site...try to call me weak/whatever for having chosen to reconcile after my wife's EA.

 

Often those same folks will then go on to insinuate that my advice is often less valid than that of other's since my wife's affair was "EA only".

 

Here's the thing.

 

I'm not impressed. I don't give a rat's patootie about what anyone else cares to think about my life, my relationship, or me.

 

I'm happy with where my life is at, content with giving advice to those that want it, and comfortable enough with who I am to let those that don't like that to feel free to exit, stage left.

 

Those that know me outside of LS know ME...who I am, where I've been, and what I'm like. If they think I'm weak or a doormat, they've at least got the common sense to keep that to themselves.

 

And I'm ok with that.

[dichotomy]

I acknowledged he had a personal problem and as hard as it was, I loved him, and decided to try to help him. for myself, for our family, and also for him. he was otherwise a good person. he was my friend.

 

 

Yes that......was/is a part of my reasons to stay with my wife. It was my role to try to lead my spouse to healthier place. It is something I have been doing for several years now/

 

There is also the vow thing, for better and for worse.

 

And also, if I may be honest, there were selfish needs, for remaining married, things I wanted to have in life - and could only have by continuing the marriage. Maybe that makes me a user to? unkind? selfish?

 

Lastly, kind of tied to item above, I spent a considerable amount of time thinking what my life would be like, what my happines would be like - if I stayed or if I left. At the time, and even now - the answer continued to be "its better to stay"...

Edited July 26, 2013 by dichotomy

[ladydesigner]

How can you love someone who continues to disrespect and disregard your feelings? Someone who continues to betray you and puts his own selfish sexual desires ahead of you, your marriage, your well being, your love? A man like that doesn't deserve your love.

 

I understand where you are coming from and no he does not deserve that kind of love. I'm not going to make excuses for my WH, but I can now see some personality disorders and he has acknowledged them too in IC. A lot of his Foo issues contributed to his endless need for validation. If he does not fix this within himself he will not stop cheating. That is why I said time will tell. I will not be going down this path ever again though. It has been hell. My WH is just now realizing what kind of person he has been to me.

 

I really identified with 2Sure's post in that I realize how sick my WH is and if after all that has happened he does not stay faithful I will leave for myself and for my kids. I do not want them to think that this is "normal" and both my kids are aware of WH's A.

[drifter777]

...

 

So your answer to the question of how big a crime infidelity is seems to be that cheating is utterly unreasonable and not to be tolerated, right?

 

Infidelity is unforgivable because it takes away something from the BS that can never be fixed; that the relationship is special because they give themselves sexually only to their spouse. This cannot be made right and will forever weigh heavily on the BS. If a WS is truly remorseful and willing to do anything to attempt to rebuild the relationship they destroyed, a BS may be able to accept that the WS has changed, is once again devoted to them, and is worthy of their love again. I don't think this happens very often, but I won't argue with those who make this claim.

 

How you can come to the conclusion that my position is that infidelity is not to be tolerated is odd. Is that a Freudian slip on your part? I clearly stated that "All we want is a person with enough character to keep their marriage promise of fidelity". I tolerated it and am still with my cheating wife. What I have always questioned is whether it is a healthy decision to stay with a cheater. The impact of this kind of betrayal is so devastating that I believe most of the BS's who choose to stay are doing so out of fear and will regret it, to some degree, the rest of their lives.

[Eggplant]

What price do you put on your dignity? Your self respect? Leaving a man who has no respect for you and treats you so badly that he would continue to have affairs regardless of what it does to you would be a lot less costly than staying in a marriage where you continue to be abused and disrespected. No amount of money is worth being treated so badly. No children are better off in a marriage where one spouse is continually abused and disrespected, where the marriage is a sham, and there is nothing left of it except a piece of paper.

 

Beautiful post! Ideally nobody would ever tolerate abuse.

 

What bothers me, still, is when people use this argument to attack and shame a BS instead of to motivate the BS. The BS is often in love. And when the people doing it are happily married themselves, or who are at the top of society, or who have been dealt great cards. It's easy to preach from a lofty position. It seems suspiciously like kicking somebody who has less than you. That same person is going to be derided for being alone too, you know.

 

If the marriage is utterly a sham, and there is nothing left of it, then of course the right way is clear. But what about grayer situations?

 

 

Do you apply always the same logic to other relationships? For instance, in the work place, if an underling is being mistreated and wronged, should he or she keep his or her dignity and quit? What if there aren't any more jobs?

 

I think it comes down to the difference between necessity and luxury. A marriage, in richer societies, is considered a luxury now.

[Eggplant]

How you can come to the conclusion that my position is that infidelity is not to be tolerated is odd. Is that a Freudian slip on your part? I clearly stated that "All we want is a person with enough character to keep their marriage promise of fidelity". I tolerated it and am still with my cheating wife. What I have always questioned is whether it is a healthy decision to stay with a cheater. The impact of this kind of betrayal is so devastating that I believe most of the BS's who choose to stay are doing so out of fear and will regret it, to some degree, the rest of their lives.

 

I came to the conclusion because of the words "All we want," which imply that that want is very little to ask of somebody. Sorry for your pain. You can't control another human being, I suppose.

[drifter777]

...

Do you apply always the same logic to other relationships? For instance, in the work place, if an underling is being mistreated and wronged, should he or she keep his or her dignity and quit? What if there aren't any more jobs?

This is like comparing apples to dinosaurs. Reactions to emotional trauma cannot be compared to how much you need a paycheck.

I think it comes down to the difference between necessity and luxury. A marriage, in richer societies, is considered a luxury now.

Wow, in what richer society is this true? I have no idea how to respond to this statement.

 

Also, your thinking that rich/privileged people look down upon the BS more than "normal" people is beyond ridicules. Exactly what do you mean by "top of society" or "have been dealt great cards"? Do you think there are fewer BS's among privileged folks?

[Eggplant]

This is like comparing apples to dinosaurs. Reactions to emotional trauma cannot be compared to how much you need a paycheck.

You're the one with life experience. That's what I said anyway. That you need money. You don't need love. But some people value their relationships as being a fundamental part of life. Without them -- they may as well be dead.

 

Wow, in what richer society is this true? I have no idea how to respond to this statement.

Richer, developed countries in which leaving a marriage doesn't mean you are out on the street being a prostitute. The BW in my case was not from such a society -- she would have been utterly in trouble. Why "wow"? I'm sorry if you feel my opinion is stupid.

 

Also, your thinking that rich/privileged people look down upon the BS more than "normal" people is beyond ridicules. Exactly what do you mean by "top of society" or "have been dealt great cards"? Do you think there are fewer BS's among privileged folks?

Actually I predict there are more BS among privileged folks, particularly because men with more money and power tend to attract lovers. What do you suppose I mean by "great cards"?