Finalizing in 1 month....long journey.

[Yasuandio]

Not questioning your ability to get laid. But fun as that is, most of us eventually want something more complete. Have you thought about this ? - your kids have never seen up close a healthy, long-term relationship. How people act without stress, tension and dissension. How fulfilling it can be for all parties concerned.

 

You can't move her on, or off, or around in circles. Since you're soon to be divorced (and she's in a year + relationship with someone else), it's not your job. But you keep showing up for work even though it seems to me you've been fired...

 

Mr. Lucky

 

Ronald,

 

May I add, you can change your persona on LS, but you will always be BarnacleB. You are who you are. That is what you are stuck with. You gotta own that, (instead of being defensive), if you'd like our help from this site. That is why people come to LS, isn't it? Are you not here on LS, with a new "Identity" to seek assistance or council from the community? If not, why are you here? What are your needs? Or am I to understand you are a man that really has no needs at all? Yas

Edited July 30, 2013 by Yasuandio

[RonaldS]

Not questioning your ability to get laid. But fun as that is, most of us eventually want something more complete. Have you thought about this ? - your kids have never seen up close a healthy, long-term relationship. How people act without stress, tension and dissension. How fulfilling it can be for all parties concerned.

 

This isn't really about getting laid. This is about being self-aware and knowing my limitations. To elaborate on the point I was making about having a lot to offer women...I wasn't speaking to the sexual elements. More my attentiveness, my awareness of others and their needs, sense of humor, conversational ability, so on and so forth. It's not hard for me to meet a woman and have the potential for a big huge relationship.

 

However, back to the limitations and self-awareness. My longest relationship before my wife was 1 month, and I was 25 when we met. So, clearly I'm not really cut out for it. I managed to be good at it while I was in the R with my ex, up until the point where I started doing math and realizing how one-sided and inequitable it was (on top of a million other issues). But post-marriage, I understand that I'm not somebody who should be in a relationship. It's not fair to others. My needs are met, and that's good enough for me.

 

Do I have an obligation to my kids to demonstrate what a healthy long-term relationship is? I've never thought about that. Seems like a bad reason to be in a relationship to me. My obligation to my kids is to help them be the best people they can be and, more than that, happy with who they are. Healthy, long-term relationship? Who even has that? 1 out of 10 couples? I have seen countless relationships in my life....<10% were what I would call healthy.

 

Some people, you know, are just better off being alone. You state that most people want something more meaningful than being alone. That's actually pretty judgemental. In effect, you're saying that absent a life partner, your life is limited in how much meaning it can have. I don't feel that way. I have 3 incredible kids whom I'm extremely close with. They give my life a ton of meaning. And then the rest of my life has all kinds of meaning and fulfillment. I don't need another person around.

 

You can't move her on, or off, or around in circles. Since you're soon to be divorced (and she's in a year + relationship with someone else), it's not your job. But you keep showing up for work even though it seems to me you've been fired...

 

Mr. Lucky

I haven't shown up for work in a LONG time. I don't even talk to her anymore unless I get cornered. She's in a relationship....I don't know or care what the nature of it is. It's two people freshly divorced who have 6 kids between them. Sounds like a winner. But, again...that's not my problem. It's thankfully no longer my issue to deal with.

 

You asked me what I wanted, I told you. I didn't say I was actively working toward making that stuff happen. It would just be refreshing and nice if people could stop playing games and could start being honest. That's all.

 

You guys wonder why people get defensive...you're painting a picture where I'm obsessed with and can't let go of a woman who doesn't want anything to do with me. Hardly. You paint a picture where I 'spend a lot of time' thinking about, obsessing over, or whatever. No, not really. Every once on a while, feelings surface, and as we near finalization of our divorce, those feelings pop up a little bit more as a fxn of seeing the reality that it's over.

 

I don't miss her, and I don't want her back. But I can still grieve the loss of the relationship.

[RonaldS]

Ronald,

 

May I add, you can change your persona on LS, but you will always be BarnacleB. You are who you are. That is what you are stuck with. You gotta own that, (instead of being defensive), if you'd like our help from this site. That is why people come to LS, isn't it? Are you not here on LS, with a new "Identity" to seek assistance or council from the community? If not, why are you here? What are your needs? Or am I to understand you are a man that really has no needs at all? Yas

 

Well, I didn't really change my LS persona. BB was perma-banned by the mods (which was intentional on my part...blaze if glory kind of thing). I never try to hide from who I am. I'm good with my identity.

 

As for why I'm here....I think it's obviously about enjoying the comfort of a community of people who have or are going through similar things. I don't come here to have people fix my problems for me. That's my job. However, sometimes people state things that I may or have thought about or offer wisdom that comes in handy, and I always appreciate that and make sure that I hold onto that. There's really only one person in the world who can fix my problems.

 

For instance, this thread.....it was really just to vent. It was also to be aware of the feelings and live with them and ultimately, through them on to the other side. That's the process that Mr. Lucky speaks of.

 

My main issue with a lot of what I see on LS is that the advice often is based around getting people to avoid confronting their feelings...there's a lot of advocacy for hiding and pretending. I've had crappy things happening to me my whole life, and if I've learned anything, it's that hiding and pretending only gets you so far. You're buying stuff on a credit card. Eventually, you have to start making payments, and it ends up costing a lot more.

 

I'm a cash guy. If I don't have the money in the bank for something, I don't buy it.

 

You can compare and contrast my XW and I. She did the 180 stuff, the whole thing with burying yourself in friends and activities and all those other distractions. She convinced herself that she was happy in just a short time after separation, and she walks around smiling and humming tunes. Problem is, she hasn't dealt with anything, and there are any of a hundred different triggers that will send her into a rage, or break her down crying, or otherwise take the wind out of her sails. Still. Years later, she's just as hurt and mad as she was 3 years ago. She still has her friends checking up on me to see if I'm dating...stuff like that.

 

Me? I worked through it. There are things about her that still annoy me, and I've bitten my tongue for our entire relationship and some of that stuff slips out. But I don't spend my time thinking about her, missing her, wondering what she's doing or who she's doing it with. I have done my time with her....I've put in my time, and now I've retired. She has another life, and I hope that it ultimately brings her happiness and success and love. I don't ask her what she's doing, and I don't really care. I dont even have one single picture of her or us...not onefrom 11 years together. The very few things she has given to me and written to me, I've burned them. part of letting go, and I dont worry about her anymore. I worry about my kids and my life.

 

All that being said, I will always love her, despite everything. And as such, when a milestone like finalizing the divorce roles around, yes....emotions well up. It's melancholy. But I just face it and deal with it. Post here to vent it out.

 

As for my needs, Yas...I have needs, but they're sort of non-traditional. I value freedom, and I value waking up everyday with a purpose larger than fulfilling myself. Having kids takes care of that. Teaching takes care of that. The rest is filler. A lot of people fear growing old alone. That doesn't bother me at all. If I end up being a 75 year old guy who doesn't have a partner, oh well. That will have been a conscious, voluntary decision. There will always be some babe hanging around, so I won't be lonely. Companionship, to me, works better in a sparse and 'unofficial' capacity.

 

I hope this message comes across as informative and not defensive. We need to remember that not everybody is the same as we are. Different people have different ways of coping, different situations, different backgrounds and different things that blow their hair back. I try to give as much info as I can so that people can understand how and why I am who I am.

[Mr. Lucky]

Some people, you know, are just better off being alone. You state that most people want something more meaningful than being alone. That's actually pretty judgemental. In effect, you're saying that absent a life partner, your life is limited in how much meaning it can have.

I don't think it's judgmental, I think it's simply true. And I offer it from the perspective of someone who said all the same things you're saying when I was going through the process. Come back 5 years from now and read what you've posted, I'll bet you'll feel differently also. Just keep your mind and options open, all I'm saying.

 

I'll sign off by wishing you well in the upcoming proceedings. Let us know how it goes...

 

Mr. Lucky

[RonaldS]

I don't think it's judgmental, I think it's simply true. And I offer it from the perspective of someone who said all the same things you're saying when I was going through the process. Come back 5 years from now and read what you've posted, I'll bet you'll feel differently also. Just keep your mind and options open, all I'm saying.

 

I'll sign off by wishing you well in the upcoming proceedings. Let us know how it goes...

 

Mr. Lucky

Again, before my R with my XW, I never had a relationship. My longest 'relationship' by the age of 25 was maybe close to a month. I never wanted relationships, I never coveted them, I never had a relationship or marriage as even a minor goal. I really didn't even want to marry my XW. She gave me the old 'We either need to get married or we need to move on' ultimatum. I unfortunately caved in, and I caved in largely because I did always want to have kids. But even at the 5 year mark in my R with my XW, I still didn't want to get married.

 

OK, so I did it. I gave it my best. It didn't work. Life goes on.

 

When I say that I'm fine being alone and don't have any interest in being in a committed relationship, that's not being said from the perspective of somebody who is hurt and going through a process. I'm simply saying the same thing I have been saying for my entire life. Nothing has changed. If anything, this experience has further solidified my position that FOR ME (not speaking for others) relationships are a waste of time and temporary at best. They have a limited shelf life.

 

This is self-awareness. I never was and never will be cut out for committed relationships. When I was married, I loved my XW completely and gave her everything I had, but I was always living a life to which I did not belong. I understand that now. I'm not a relationship guy. Never was, never will be. They don't do anything for me. I'm a very independent person. I don't need other people, and the love I have in me goes mainly to my kids now, as well as family and friends.

 

You know, I understand where you're coming from. I've heard the same thing from so many people. 'Oh, you say that now...'. Uh huh. And I've said it my whole life and will continue to say it because it's who I am. Once it was apparent that I was going to get married, I always said that I would try it once. I tried it, it didn't work, so now I'm past it. Please understand that not everybody is the same. Just because you went through it and changed, doesn't have any bearing on what I will want or do. I'm just a different kind of dude. I'm motivated by different things than most people.

 

So, I'm not trying to be tragic. I'm just who I am and I'm fine living life alone. Always have been, always will be.

[keepontruckin]

Ronny, I hear what you're saying...

 

I have been single for most of my life, and quite happy with it, actually.

 

However, you seem to be bitter, and I'm not sure you're happy as a single person.

 

My wife walked away from me, and that did leave me angry and jaded. I lost the best friend I ever had. I certainly had my faults, but so did she...

 

However, it is up to you and I to decide how to progress from this point onwards...

[RonaldS]

Ronny, I hear what you're saying...

 

I have been single for most of my life, and quite happy with it, actually.

 

However, you seem to be bitter, and I'm not sure you're happy as a single person.

 

My wife walked away from me, and that did leave me angry and jaded. I lost the best friend I ever had. I certainly had my faults, but so did she...

 

However, it is up to you and I to decide how to progress from this point onwards...

To be honest, I'm actually pretty happy being single. Any bitterness or resentment that comes through in my posting is a function of some dynamics that I've allowed to occur thought this thing that I put up with but don't like. I put up with it because nothing will change it. My XW and her people are pretty myopic and judgemental and not real accountable (they've never done anything wrong...always somebody else's fault). I know that the narrative will never change, so rather than spin my wheels standing up for myself when it won't change anything, I've just bitten the bullet and assumed all of the responsibility for the marriage failing.

 

Now here, privately and anonymously, I vent that frustration. It keeps me from venting it around her or her people, and it saves my friends and family from having to hear about it all the time.

 

So, those feelings stem from that....not from how my life is.

 

My day to day life is good. I enjoy being single. I can do almost everything I want to do when I want to do and with whom I want to do it with and I don't have to worry about what somebody else thinks or feels about it. Freedom. That's something I value.

 

Yeah, I may post about her and the situation in a pissy fashion, but it's really just venting. I'm very private in real life, so I don't spend a lot of time talking about this stuff. But my day to day existence is good. I'm happier now than I was with her.

[Minnie09]

I totally get it and I also don't see anything "bitter" in the OP's posts. He's just venting. If after 14 years of marriage and 3 kids you're totally cool, indifferent and detached, you're a robot. Here's somebody who is NOT bitter, just reflecting on his past and a shared life with someone who's been important to him. What's the problem with that? It's an honest reflection and he's just sharing it with the people on here. Nothing more. Nothing less. To call him bitter and obsessed is most probably a totally incorrect assessment of the situation. Of course he will be interested in her life, to some extent, of course he wonders what she's been thinking. That's just normal. Doesn't make him an obsessed stalker-freak.

 

It's not politically correct to present those feelings on here, I get that, and it is also very rare that we read those honest thoughts, but I want to say that I totally and entirely appreciate them. It's something I can relate to and I've been through. Somebody who has fallen in love head over heels, who gave himself to somebody because he thought it's the right thing to do and it's something he believes in and it would work out.....even though he's not "that" person who falls easily in love......he gave his everything and in the end it did NOT work out. He took a chance. He, who didn't really think he would ever be in a long-term relationship...he gave it his everything. And he "failed". Yes, I think he's entitled to vent and he's just working through his emotions. Doesn't mean much. But we should give him that without judging.

 

I, personally, do that in the presence of my friends, and they would never call me bitter, and they would never judge me. They would just listen and understand. Or try to understand. Because they know I'm not bitter. I'm just sometimes sad and I sometimes wish - still wish - it wouldn't have come to this. Just sometimes.

[RonaldS]

I totally get it and I also don't see anything "bitter" in the OP's posts. He's just venting. If after 14 years of marriage and 3 kids you're totally cool, indifferent and detached, you're a robot. Here's somebody who is NOT bitter, just reflecting on his past and a shared life with someone who's been important to him. What's the problem with that? It's an honest reflection and he's just sharing it with the people on here. Nothing more. Nothing less. To call him bitter and obsessed is most probably a totally incorrect assessment of the situation. Of course he will be interested in her life, to some extent, of course he wonders what she's been thinking. That's just normal. Doesn't make him an obsessed stalker-freak.

 

It's not politically correct to present those feelings on here, I get that, and it is also very rare that we read those honest thoughts, but I want to say that I totally and entirely appreciate them. It's something I can relate to and I've been through. Somebody who has fallen in love head over heels, who gave himself to somebody because he thought it's the right thing to do and it's something he believes in and it would work out.....even though he's not "that" person who falls easily in love......he gave his everything and in the end it did NOT work out. He took a chance. He, who didn't really think he would ever be in a long-term relationship...he gave it his everything. And he "failed". Yes, I think he's entitled to vent and he's just working through his emotions. Doesn't mean much. But we should give him that without judging.

 

I, personally, do that in the presence of my friends, and they would never call me bitter, and they would never judge me. They would just listen and understand. Or try to understand. Because they know I'm not bitter. I'm just sometimes sad and I sometimes wish - still wish - it wouldn't have come to this. Just sometimes.

 

Thank you, Minnie. Your words mean a lot to me.

 

Yes, I do feel like I failed. I feel like I made a huge investment and it flopped, because maybe I didn't go over the prospectus thoroughly enough. The divorce finalizing brings out a lot to reflect on, good and bad. I feel like 14 years deserves some sort of homage. And we look back, reflect, and hopefully after we've walked through that door, we've learned some things.

 

I feel like you get it, Minnie. Thanks for your response.

[Snowflower]

Ronald, I've followed your story here since the beginning, when you were posting under a different name.

 

Thank you for being so honest in what you express here. I agree that there is this expected? response of a soon to be divorced person being all happy that they are free and starting a new life.

 

I was watching something on TV where people who, on the day of their divorce being finalized, actually threw an elaborate party to celebrate. Not a couple of drinks with friends as a way to boost their spirits but an elaborate, catered party, almost like a wedding reception but in reverse.

 

To me, that seemed sad.

 

If I ever do divorce and trust me, I've been through h*ll and back with my H with his infidelity, unhappiness, restless, etc. I will consider it one of the saddest things I've ever endured. That's just me. And obviously, you are similar.

 

I think on that day when you go to court to finalize everything, you should look at your wife and let her see your sadness. You don't have to talk to her at length but honestly, I think you should let her glimpse how you feel. The emotionally remote stance might make you feel worse.

 

My .02

 

I hope you will keep posting and venting.

[RonaldS]

Ronald, I've followed your story here since the beginning, when you were posting under a different name.

 

Thank you for being so honest in what you express here. I agree that there is this expected? response of a soon to be divorced person being all happy that they are free and starting a new life.

 

I was watching something on TV where people who, on the day of their divorce being finalized, actually threw an elaborate party to celebrate. Not a couple of drinks with friends as a way to boost their spirits but an elaborate, catered party, almost like a wedding reception but in reverse.

 

To me, that seemed sad.

 

If I ever do divorce and trust me, I've been through h*ll and back with my H with his infidelity, unhappiness, restless, etc. I will consider it one of the saddest things I've ever endured. That's just me. And obviously, you are similar.

 

I think on that day when you go to court to finalize everything, you should look at your wife and let her see your sadness. You don't have to talk to her at length but honestly, I think you should let her glimpse how you feel. The emotionally remote stance might make you feel worse.

 

My .02

 

I hope you will keep posting and venting.

Thanks, SF. I appreciate it.

 

You hit on a good point about honestly showing how I feel at that moment. I tend to agree, but it also made me think of this as it pertains to how people act when in this situation and how, and you see this all of the time on LS with the advice given, a lot of times these 'strategies' (or lets call them by their real name: games) that people engage end up blowing up in their faces.

 

Take my situation. It has taken 3 years post-separation to get divorced? Why? Not because of the legality or the financial elements, not because of any due process.

 

It took 3 years because a lot of games were played. I'm not saying that we definitely could have fixed this, or that it even should have been fixed, but when I look back at all of the game playing (both sides), it's sad. There were so many times where we were so close to getting back on the same page, but the hiding and the games and the pretending and the dishonesty....that stuff derailed it EVERY time.

 

Action determines reaction. If your actions are disingenuous, what kind of reaction should you expect?

 

People here talk about how, if somebody in the marriage is at a bad point and they start to act in a way that is portending the end of the marriage or acting out against the marriage or their spouse, and that's hurting the other person, then the other person should PRETEND to be happy and active and good with their life and that this doesn't bother them. Perfect.

 

My XW did that. You know what message that sent me? 'Well, she obviously doesn't give a f**k about me or this marriage, so why should I?'. And that's when things went seriously downhill.

 

Maybe if people were honest with each other and themselves for a change, a lot of this crap wouldn't happen. But nope. We gotta save face, we gotta win. Yup....lot of people winning here.

[Snowflower]

People in general will play "games" to avoid being hurt and/or showing vulnerability.

 

From what you write, it seems you and your wife both "played games" to avoid showing weakness to the other which could potentially be exploited by the other. Some of this might be able to be attributed to a complete communication breakdown in your marriage along the way.

 

So at this last defining moment in that courtroom, don't play any further games. Be honest and show whatever you are feeling on that day: sadness, disappointment, disillusionment, etc. You deserve to show how you feel and your wife deserves that honesty --and please understand I'm not saying you've been dishonest, I think you've been hiding your emotions as a way to protect yourself.

 

And just as importantly, your marriage relationship deserves that flash of honesty at that juncture, at the bitter end.

[worldgonewrong]

IIf two people can make a promise to spend their lives together, and have kids together....then they can take a half an hour after it ends and just be real with each other.

 

That's a false assumption on your part that assumes YOUR idea of closure is also HER idea of closure.

My ex game-played til the end and continues to do so. I do not require anything from her, because I know not to expect it; it's liberating to realize that you need not make your ideals manifest in somebody else -- the other person is either independently idealistic (etc) or not, period.

 

Believe me, I understand your sentiments perfectly, and shared them at times, but trying to align a broken relationship in your mind constantly is just needless self-torture.

[Snowflower]

People here talk about how, if somebody in the marriage is at a bad point and they start to act in a way that is portending the end of the marriage or acting out against the marriage or their spouse, and that's hurting the other person, then the other person should PRETEND to be happy and active and good with their life and that this doesn't bother them. Perfect.

 

My XW did that. You know what message that sent me? 'Well, she obviously doesn't give a f**k about me or this marriage, so why should I?'. And that's when things went seriously downhill.

 

 

Are you maybe talking about the 180 approach here? You know, that whole list of things you should do when your spouse appears to want out of the marriage?

 

Yeah, I could see how that could be considered game playing. But I honestly think that it is a tool to save the "left-behind" spouse. Maybe it is a bit of a game. But when it doesn't work to try to talk to the spouse who wants to leave, what is the left behind one supposed to do?

 

It's a shame that communication couldn't have been better between you and your wife.

 

Have you ever thought of writing a letter/sending an email to her explaining some of the things you have been feeling? Similar to what you have written here? A letter that is not too long or too short, maybe a page or two explaining how you feel/felt, why you did some of things you did, and how you feel about the future without your marriage? It likely won't change the outcome but at least you and she will be on the same page.

 

Your story is a very sad one.

[RonaldS]

That's a false assumption on your part that assumes YOUR idea of closure is also HER idea of closure.

My ex game-played til the end and continues to do so. I do not require anything from her, because I know not to expect it; it's liberating to realize that you need not make your ideals manifest in somebody else -- the other person is either independently idealistic (etc) or not, period.

 

Believe me, I understand your sentiments perfectly, and shared them at times, but trying to align a broken relationship in your mind constantly is just needless self-torture.

 

You're right that it's not her idea of closure. I don't think she wants closure. She works hard to sort of keep me as in her life as she can. I could start listing the things that she does, but that would take all day. She doesn't want to lose the support and validation that I give her. Even very recently, she has said things like 'Well, you might see some pics on so-and-so's Facebook page that might make it look like I'm out with some guy, but I dont want you to think that's what's going on'. Why would she care what I think is going on? Probably because she knows that once I feel like she has moved on that I will sever myself from her completely.

 

Well, she's right....but that already happened. She's been seeing a guy for almost a year, and once that started, I just totally let go of her and stopped being her quasi-husband. But she keeps insisting (without me even asking or bringing the topic up) that she is not in any way, shape or form in a relationship. Why? Why even say that stuff? Because she wants to keep me around in whatever way she can.

 

That's why I had to write up the divorce papers for 'her' divorce. She was never going to do it.

 

So, I don't know, man. I don't need her to have closure. I know what I would like to have, and considering I've never really asked her for anything, the least she can do is be honest with me for a few minutes.

[RonaldS]

People in general will play "games" to avoid being hurt and/or showing vulnerability.

 

From what you write, it seems you and your wife both "played games" to avoid showing weakness to the other which could potentially be exploited by the other. Some of this might be able to be attributed to a complete communication breakdown in your marriage along the way.

 

So at this last defining moment in that courtroom, don't play any further games. Be honest and show whatever you are feeling on that day: sadness, disappointment, disillusionment, etc. You deserve to show how you feel and your wife deserves that honesty --and please understand I'm not saying you've been dishonest, I think you've been hiding your emotions as a way to protect yourself.

 

And just as importantly, your marriage relationship deserves that flash of honesty at that juncture, at the bitter end.

 

You're absolutely right. I did play games. And all I really did was shoot myself in the foot. Maybe this could have been fixed. Of maybe it could have officially and legally ended 2 years ago. All the games did was create a weird, confusing limbo situation that dragged on and on.

 

I've learned a lot through this. The biggest thing is to be honest, not only with the other person, but with myself as well.

 

Regarding your advice of writing a letter....I've done that and more, over and over. And we've actually had a lot of meaningful one-on-one conversations, the whole way through. After the divorce papers were drawn up, we actually went out and got some drinks and just talked for a few hours. Now, I don't know how much of what she said I actually believed, but maybe once it's finalized and she doesn't feel like maulybe she could get sucked back into the relationship, she might be a little more honest. I don't know.

 

We have such a weird relationship.

[RonaldS]

One more thing I sort of forgot about but just remembered. After the divorce was filed, she thought it would be a good idea for us to go in for counseling together AFTER the divorce is finalized.

 

What the....? Why?

[Snowflower]

One more thing I sort of forgot about but just remembered. After the divorce was filed, she thought it would be a good idea for us to go in for counseling together AFTER the divorce is finalized.

 

What the....? Why?

 

From where I sit, there are obviously a lot of unresolved issues between the two of you. It appears (at least to me) that the two of you are still quite emotionally bonded.

 

Her suggestion might be a good one. After the divorce is finalized and some of the pressure is off, perhaps a few sessions of counseling might be a good idea to gain a sense of how to move on separately, how to co-parent successfully and how to interact with one another at all those inevitable events which will bring the two of you together in the future: school events, kids games, proms, graduations, college visits, etc.

 

With these apparent unresolved feelings between you and your wife, these events will likely be difficult to navigate and could spin both of you individually into a renewed sense of loss.

 

Think about the counseling. It might be a good idea.

[RonaldS]

From where I sit, there are obviously a lot of unresolved issues between the two of you. It appears (at least to me) that the two of you are still quite emotionally bonded.

 

Her suggestion might be a good one. After the divorce is finalized and some of the pressure is off, perhaps a few sessions of counseling might be a good idea to gain a sense of how to move on separately, how to co-parent successfully and how to interact with one another at all those inevitable events which will bring the two of you together in the future: school events, kids games, proms, graduations, college visits, etc.

 

With these apparent unresolved feelings between you and your wife, these events will likely be difficult to navigate and could spin both of you individually into a renewed sense of loss.

 

Think about the counseling. It might be a good idea.

 

You make some good points, and I tend to agree.

 

Here's what bothers me about that scenario. I have a good sense of what her true feelings are, but she has been in self-protect mode for a long time, and was all caught up in the 180, so she has had a lot of times when she didn't communicate, or communicate honestly. A lot of me giving up trying was her stonewalling me.

 

So, lets say we go to counseling. What's going to happen? Is she finally going to open up and be honest about her feelings? Honestly, that will annoy me. Like, why now? Why when its too late to do any good do you wait to resolve this stuff? I would almost rather not hear it.

 

Look, I get her. She is/was hurt badly. This isn't what she wanted. Again, who knows if ending our relationship was the right move or wrong move. But lets say for the sake of argument that it was the wrong move. If I hear certain truths about how she feels come out, I'm going to be like 'Great. Where the hell was that when it could have done some good?'.

 

So now it doesn't mean much. It seems like she has something on her mind. OK, let me save $1000 on counseling (because I know she's not going to pay for it) and just say what you have to say.

 

Why post-divorce? Is she worried that if we work out a problem while we're still married that we're going to get back together?

[Minnie09]

She probably cares about you and does love you one way or another. She's definitely not done done. The fact that she wants counseling post-D means that she would've wanted counseling or a solution to whatever problem you may have had pre-D, but she was too stubborn to demand it. Nobody wants to be the needy one in a relationship. It's always better to he the cool one. The less emotionally involved one. Maybe she feels like you hurt her too much.....I don't know what happened that caused the separation.....but it was something that made her feel like she's done. And now it's almost too late, but it doesn't matter any more, so she has nothing to lose, which is why she's feeling safer suggesting counseling than she would've felt being married to you. Now it can be under the disguise of co-patenting and getting along "like adults"......she's got nothing to lose.....or not as much as before. She's not done with you is what I'm thinking.

[RonaldS]

She probably cares about you and does love you one way or another. She's definitely not done done. The fact that she wants counseling post-D means that she would've wanted counseling or a solution to whatever problem you may have had pre-D, but she was too stubborn to demand it. Nobody wants to be the needy one in a relationship. It's always better to he the cool one. The less emotionally involved one. Maybe she feels like you hurt her too much.....I don't know what happened that caused the separation.....but it was something that made her feel like she's done. And now it's almost too late, but it doesn't matter any more, so she has nothing to lose, which is why she's feeling safer suggesting counseling than she would've felt being married to you. Now it can be under the disguise of co-patenting and getting along "like adults"......she's got nothing to lose.....or not as much as before. She's not done with you is what I'm thinking.

That's interesting. I don't know.

 

Personally, I don't think she ever truly loved me. Maybe infatuated and dependent, but she never respected me, and it's hard to love somebody you don't respect. I'm sure she cared/s, but she never put anything into our relationship, and didn't really do much to show she cared. I feel like she thinks that a counselor will conclude that everything that went wrong was because I'm such a terrible person and absolve her of any responsibility.

[Snowflower]

She probably cares about you and does love you one way or another. She's definitely not done done. The fact that she wants counseling post-D means that she would've wanted counseling or a solution to whatever problem you may have had pre-D, but she was too stubborn to demand it. Nobody wants to be the needy one in a relationship. It's always better to he the cool one. The less emotionally involved one. Maybe she feels like you hurt her too much.....I don't know what happened that caused the separation.....but it was something that made her feel like she's done. And now it's almost too late, but it doesn't matter any more, so she has nothing to lose, which is why she's feeling safer suggesting counseling than she would've felt being married to you. Now it can be under the disguise of co-patenting and getting along "like adults"......she's got nothing to lose.....or not as much as before. She's not done with you is what I'm thinking.

 

Great post ^^^ I agree 100%

 

Ronald, I think this is a case of where men and women see the same thing a little differently. I don't think she is "done, done" either. I read posts all over LS from women, have known a few women IRL like this, who are done-done. It is very obvious.

 

A woman who is done-done doesn't request counseling.

 

That's interesting. I don't know.

 

Personally, I don't think she ever truly loved me. Maybe infatuated and dependent, but she never respected me, and it's hard to love somebody you don't respect. I'm sure she cared/s, but she never put anything into our relationship, and didn't really do much to show she cared. I feel like she thinks that a counselor will conclude that everything that went wrong was because I'm such a terrible person and absolve her of any responsibility.

 

I'm going to add that for women, respect doesn't go necessarily hand in hand with love, the way men think. The concept of respect isn't as important to women. In other words, they can love a man without necessarily respecting him. For men, they feel this lack of respect very keenly and attribute it to their wife not loving them.

 

I also don't think that a counselor will provide that conclusion to either of you. That is not the job of a good counselor (to blame or absolve) either partner but rather to help establish good/better communication between the two of you.

[RonaldS]

Great post ^^^ I agree 100%

 

Ronald, I think this is a case of where men and women see the same thing a little differently. I don't think she is "done, done" either. I read posts all over LS from women, have known a few women IRL like this, who are done-done. It is very obvious.

 

A woman who is done-done doesn't request counseling.

 

 

 

I'm going to add that for women, respect doesn't go necessarily hand in hand with love, the way men think. The concept of respect isn't as important to women. In other words, they can love a man without necessarily respecting him. For men, they feel this lack of respect very keenly and attribute it to their wife not loving them.

 

I also don't think that a counselor will provide that conclusion to either of you. That is not the job of a good counselor (to blame or absolve) either partner but rather to help establish good/better communication between the two of you.

 

I really appreciate your insights, and you're right about counseling not being to declare a victor. But she has stated that she would like to do counseling to find out why I did what I did (she has already eliminated herself as a variable in the equation).

 

Maybe you're right on the respect issue. I don't really know. I feel like she is confusing dependence and infatuation with love. I never really felt love coming from her. I felt like I was her employee, and the job was to take care of her and make her happy. It's difficult for me to recall more than a couple times in all those years where she actually put effort into us and did something for me. I did things for her all the time, but other than 'letting' me do things I liked to do (thanks, Mom), she never really tried for me. But I had to make sure I took care if all of her needs, passed all of her tests, and made her happy (because she didn't know how to make herself happy).

 

And I get really, really put off by people who don't put effort into things, and sit back and wait for everybody to do everything for them, and then when things go wrong, they sit back and wait for somebody else to work it out. Then, when it's way too late, they decide to be all buddy-buddy. At this point, I don't have a strong desire to be her friend and support her all over the place.

 

She's probably not done....because I really don't think she ever really started. In the 3 years we were separated, she only called to talk twice. Once when we were getting really close again, and she was scanning phone and text records and found that I had been talking to some other girl (4 months before, a year into our separation) and she wanted to know what was going on, and the second time she saw something I had looked up on her computer regarding custody rights and she probably thought I was trying to take the kids from her.

 

So, there you have it. 11 years together, and additional 3 separated, and two phone calls. Yeah, she's not done....she never started.

Edited August 7, 2013 by RonaldS

[RonaldS]

The other thing I would add re: the counseling and related matters....

 

I think for her, she fears losing control of me. She admitted a while back that she hadn't filed for divorce because she didn't want me to go out and be with somebody else. A few months later she said, 'I don't really want to get divorced, but I don't have a strong desire to be in a relationship'.

 

So, it seems as if it has all been away to keep me dangling and have some sort of control over me. Counseling seems like another carrot she can dangle in my face so that I don't totally move on from her (which has happened/is happening no matter what she does). She knows, because of what she knows about my past, that once I cut the cord, I am gone gone, long gone and will never look back.

 

I think this has everything to do with her and her own insecurities and nothing to do with 'loving' me.

Edited August 7, 2013 by RonaldS

[Snowflower]

I really appreciate your insights, and you're right about counseling not being to declare a victor. But she has stated that she would like to do counseling to find out why I did what I did (she has already eliminated herself as a variable in the equation).

 

Maybe you're right on the respect issue. I don't really know. I feel like she is confusing dependence and infatuation with love. I never really felt love coming from her. I felt like I was her employee, and the job was to take care of her and make her happy. It's difficult for me to recall more than a couple times in all those years where she actually put effort into us and did something for me. I did things for her all the time, but other than 'letting' me do things I liked to do (thanks, Mom), she never really tried for me. But I had to make sure I took care if all of her needs, passed all of her tests, and made her happy (because she didn't know how to make herself happy).

 

And I get really, really put off by people who don't put effort into things, and sit back and wait for everybody to do everything for them, and then when things go wrong, they sit back and wait for somebody else to work it out. Then, when it's way too late, they decide to be all buddy-buddy. At this point, I don't have a strong desire to be her friend and support her all over the place.

 

She's probably not done....because I really don't think she ever really started. In the 3 years we were separated, she only called to talk twice. Once when we were getting really close again, and she was scanning phone and text records and found that I had been talking to some other girl (4 months before, a year into our separation) and she wanted to know what was going on, and the second time she saw something I had looked up on her computer regarding custody rights and she probably thought I was trying to take the kids from her.

 

So, there you have it. 11 years together, and additional 3 separated, and two phone calls. Yeah, she's not done....she never started.

 

Save this post and refer back to it when you feel down in the dumps. It gives a detailed description of all that went wrong in your marriage, remember this. You seem to have a good understanding of where it all went off the rails.