tgh5092 Posted July 23, 2013 Posted July 23, 2013 I probably already know the answers I'll get on this, which is no fun. However, here goes anyway: Me, 30, Amateur philosopher, believes in God but not organized religion, I do my own thing Her, 27, Incredibly very Catholic Us, feels amazing to be with her, we get along swimmingly, politically similar (but she thinks I'm a little crazy, maybe I am), dating about 2 months now exclusive the whole time Frankly, everything has been enjoyable, incredible, and wonderful (and all that jazz!). We seem able to communicate openly. There's just one hangup that I have, and one that she has it seems, which comes from the above. She struggles with my position on Catholic beliefs. I grew up Catholic, so I get the whole position. I just don't believe some of the fundamental stuff, and there is a good chance I never will. As far as kids would be concerned, I'd be happy to participate in a Catholic community, I just won't necessarily believe some of the stuff. I am really, really struggling with her position on physical intimacy. We aren't young, but she isn't even comfortable with taking off clothes right now. Kissing, and that's the line, after almost 2 months. She wants to save sex for marriage, which I understand but don't necessarily support. I could maybe go along with it, but I'm one of those people that likes to ensure some level of sexual compatibility. Her position is that "we see each other once or twice a week," so therefore the clothes stay on. To me that's just logistics, especially since she lives 40 minutes away and we both work full time. Intimacy should be an expression of feelings, not something that is based on some artificial logistics threshold (at least to me). What sucks is that we get along so well and so amazingly. I don't find many girls like that, at all. I am also not the type of guy that's just in a relationship for the physical stuff, but I want to at least be presented the opportunity to explore things. Like I said, I have a suspicion that I know the answers already. So let 'er rip.
Author tgh5092 Posted July 23, 2013 Author Posted July 23, 2013 I'm a believer that there are no obstacles that stand in the way of a relationship, just people. It sounds like you're two people that don't "bend" much for others. And a relationship is all about being a little flexible. Either you guys need to learn to bend a bit, or you might just be better off as friends. Valid point. I'm trying to be as flexible as possible, that's why I'm even entertaining moving forward with it. I'll have to talk to her about what options she is willing to bend on.
salparadise Posted July 23, 2013 Posted July 23, 2013 I had a relationship with a woman who had adopted Eastern Orthodoxy (split with the Catholics in 1050, similar in many ways) and tried to practice as best she could. But she grew up in California so she was the product of progressive culture long before adopting Orthodoxy. I am like you, Christian by upbringing but don't do organized religion anymore, and don't buy anybody's dogma in it's entirety. In our culture there aren't many, even among Catholics, who are stringent about saving sex for marriage. It became a problem in my relationship because she was on/off about it. I'd get sex for awhile and then she'd feel guilty and swear it off until she was more horny than guilty. Then she'd confess to the priest and he'd slut shame her. And then I'd go to church with her and he'd give me the evil eye for leading his flock astray... and then sex would be off for awhile and then there would be the fasting (no sex). My advice... if she's the love of your life, court her fast and get married. If you're anything less than absolutely crazy about her, move on. Better check and see if she's ok with birth control unless you want to have a dozen kids, or are ok with living without sex even after marriage! It's one thing to be Mr. Understanding, but if you believe that sex is a fundamental human need and want that to be the cornerstone of a great relationship, be very careful. You all should do a lot of talking. Ask her if she's ok with sex while engaged, or is it literally on after the ceremony. Try and figure out if she has generalized negative feelings about sex. Try and keep the priest's nose out of your business because they aren't going to do squat to help you get laid. I've pretty much decided for myself that I'm going to avoid dating women who are taking their orders from anyone other than their own conscience.
Author tgh5092 Posted July 24, 2013 Author Posted July 24, 2013 Good advice, glad to get some from somebody that has experienced this firsthand. I have a feeling she might be like that, we are all only human, after all, but maybe she isn't, I'd have to push the issue I suppose. I somewhat wonder if, after our talks about "beliefs," she has a bit of a crisis of faith every time. Having reasoned through most of my beliefs fairly extensively, and connecting them to scientific facts, I know I can be pretty convincing even when I say things that most religious people would cringe at (like how I feel like I am in a wizard ceremony when I sit in church). I am pretty straightforward with it, especially since she is so religious that if I were not it would be like lying. I don't want to present myself as something that I'm not. I see the practical value of organized religion for families (support networks, socialization, etc.), but I really think for myself on basically every topic. Even my politics are a bit bizarre to most people...okay pretty much everybody that isn't predisposed to my position.
shexy Posted July 24, 2013 Posted July 24, 2013 I personally like to test drive the car before I buy it....IJS 1
salparadise Posted July 24, 2013 Posted July 24, 2013 Good advice, glad to get some from somebody that has experienced this firsthand. I have a feeling she might be like that, we are all only human, after all, but maybe she isn't, I'd have to push the issue I suppose. I somewhat wonder if, after our talks about "beliefs," she has a bit of a crisis of faith every time. Having reasoned through most of my beliefs fairly extensively, and connecting them to scientific facts, I know I can be pretty convincing even when I say things that most religious people would cringe at (like how I feel like I am in a wizard ceremony when I sit in church). I am pretty straightforward with it, especially since she is so religious that if I were not it would be like lying. I don't want to present myself as something that I'm not. I see the practical value of organized religion for families (support networks, socialization, etc.), but I really think for myself on basically every topic. Even my politics are a bit bizarre to most people...okay pretty much everybody that isn't predisposed to my position. I would try and figure out a few things about her relationship to the church and religion. Is she a conformist or does she have these beliefs thoroughly integrated? If she's a conformist then being around you may loosen her up a bit as time goes along, but if it's thoroughly integrated as a belief system then trying to loosen up to please you, or keep you from leaving, will create guilt and dissonance within. This will, in all likelihood, manifest as resentment, and there may come a tipping point. And the on the other side of the coin, you playing along with the party line in order to be accepted in the church could wear thin too. It's easy to go along until someone treats you disrespectfully or has expectations that you're just not ready to comply with. I told my former girlfriend that I would be happy to accompany her to church and that I actually enjoy the services (it's all choir music, chanting and incense) but she needed to understand that I'd just be going along with her and not to expect me to actually subscribe to the doctrine and so forth. She said she understood. Because I am of a spiritual nature and willing to express that we were able to commune in that way. So we both compromised some, or were simply accepting, in order to be spiritual together. If the two of you are less flexible and unable to unite spiritually, I think that will become a serious problem, sex notwithstanding. It was ultimately more difficult than I imagined. When we first got started I was smitten, and I remained smitten and cared for her deeply. But the strong religious practice makes sort of a triangular situation where you're not just loving the other person, but also being pushed and pulled by a third entity, and in your case one that you don't really subscribe to but only tolerate. Lot's to think about. I wish you the best.
Author tgh5092 Posted July 24, 2013 Author Posted July 24, 2013 I personally like to test drive the car before I buy it....IJS So do I bud. That's what keeps running through my head. Over...and over...and over... I would try and figure out a few things about her relationship to the church and religion. Is she a conformist or does she have these beliefs thoroughly integrated? If she's a conformist then being around you may loosen her up a bit as time goes along, but if it's thoroughly integrated as a belief system then trying to loosen up to please you, or keep you from leaving, will create guilt and dissonance within. This will, in all likelihood, manifest as resentment, and there may come a tipping point. And the on the other side of the coin, you playing along with the party line in order to be accepted in the church could wear thin too. It's easy to go along until someone treats you disrespectfully or has expectations that you're just not ready to comply with. I told my former girlfriend that I would be happy to accompany her to church and that I actually enjoy the services (it's all choir music, chanting and incense) but she needed to understand that I'd just be going along with her and not to expect me to actually subscribe to the doctrine and so forth. She said she understood. Because I am of a spiritual nature and willing to express that we were able to commune in that way. So we both compromised some, or were simply accepting, in order to be spiritual together. If the two of you are less flexible and unable to unite spiritually, I think that will become a serious problem, sex notwithstanding. It was ultimately more difficult than I imagined. When we first got started I was smitten, and I remained smitten and cared for her deeply. But the strong religious practice makes sort of a triangular situation where you're not just loving the other person, but also being pushed and pulled by a third entity, and in your case one that you don't really subscribe to but only tolerate. Lot's to think about. I wish you the best. Yeah, I am a little unsure about it. She seems pretty guarded in general, to me at least. I am not entirely sure how she came to her beliefs. I feel a bit of a "wall" up between us, we all sense that kind of stuff, and I am going to first address that wall and why it is there with her this weekend. Since the rest is a natural, logical extension to that conversation, I'll move it along from there. I know it's going to push her out of her comfort zone, but I know that our belief-based conversations often do. Thanks for the wishes.
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