Strange Custody Question

[M30USA]

Jane, I understand your point, but the fundamental question is:

 

Are we basing CPS policy on THE LAW or merely hunches, suspicions, and sometimes revenge?

 

If a parent is found guilty IN A COURT OF LAW of child abuse, then by all means take the kid away.

 

One will give the classic argument that you can't wait until court trial to determine the safety of a child. Then get a sooner court date! That is the problem. How about setting a court date immediately and working on expediting the court process?

 

If you are not abiding by law and justice, then you are by definition abiding by emotions and suspicion. Very dangerous waters. I say this even after having my own CPS case "ruled out". I recall reading the letter thinking, "Well I'm glad they came to that realization, but why are they using the term 'ruled' as if they are a judge and jury?" This stuff honestly scares me when I think about our society's future. People are so eager to SUPPORT this stuff without realizing its exactly how all prior tyrannies have insidiously encroached upon the rule of law. If you do not rigidly stand up for law with full awareness of why it matters, it will be taken away.

[2sure]

In the state I live in, and specifically the city I live in...

 

It is poverty stricken, with everything that goes along with it. Crime, drug addiction, hopelessness, neglect and abuse.

 

The CPS here are overworked & frustrated. Some of them also have terrible work ethics , burn out is high.

 

There is no more room in the foster programs. The county is nearly bankrupt.

 

CPS follow up has become random. Children are being killed.

It takes mountains of frustrating work to get an abuser convicted & even more to remove a child from the home.

 

Lets not ask for less CPS involvement.

[Pastypop]

My spouse has been physically abusive for years. I've had to take off work to hide it sometimes. However, according to his family, I'm a mean, abusive and neglectful parent. Those people have shamed me, shunned me, spread rumors about me and whatever mean things they can think of. When that wicked bitch mil finally breaks up my marriage, I'm taking my journal and pictures to my lawyer. Don't think my MIL is going to be too happy with the outcome. She's thinks I'm too stupid to do anything like that.

[M30USA]

Lets not ask for less CPS involvement.

 

I'm not in favor of less CPS involvement. I'm in favor of keeping due process. It's sad how anyone who dares uphold CPS to the standards of due process is labelled as "not caring for abused children". No. Due process was set up so that ALL PEOPLE are protected under and accountable to the law. Perhaps some people need to read Animal Farm again and see what happens when certain animals become "more equal than others".

Edited July 23, 2013 by M30USA

[Mme. Chaucer]

Bottom line is that where kids are concerned, the "rights," wants, conflicts, dysfunction, etc. of their parents need to be put FAR to the side.

 

I am distressed, personally, by the efforts made to be "fair" to parents at the expense of the kids.

 

Certain situations of 50/50 custody that I know of are absolutely draining for the kids. They don't have a place to call home. They don't have a neighborhood or consistency to forge relationships. They have to keep 2 separate collections of stuff or keep shuttling it back and forth.

 

No matter who's the "bad guy" in a divorce, or if, as usual, both were at fault, that should have NOTHING to do with the kids.

 

I wish that divorced parents would be required to move back and forth and leave the children in one place. An offsite apartment could be maintained for the parent not in current custody, and the children's home. Only the expenses of 2 domiciles which could be shared equally between the parents. I know it's done sometimes. It's called "bird's nest custody." I don't think it's often, if ever, mandated by courts, but implemented by parents who want the best for their children.

 

OP - it's not good for your kids for you to keep indulging in this negative mindset about their mom. Even if she's a whackjob, she is their mom. You chose her. She has primary custody. You want and need to parent your children. Make it work. You're a grown up man.

[Mme. Chaucer]

I'm not in favor of less CPS involvement. I'm in favor of keeping due process. It's sad how anyone who dares uphold CPS to the standards of due process is labelled as "not caring for abused children". No. Due process was set up so that ALL PEOPLE are protected under and accountable to the law. Perhaps some people need to read Animal Farm again and see what happens when certain animals become "more equal than others".

 

Except that in the cases of abused children, waiting to protect the "rights" of their parents can and often does result in tragedies.

 

I think you need to back down from your current platform that the "rights" of a parent could or should EVER trump the rights of any children to safety.

 

The stats of kids who were harmed by being left in abusive situations far exceed those that were wrongfully removed. Which I certainly agree does happen. It's a shame. CPS sucks. Because they have to adhere to TOO MUCH due process in order to try to protect kids.

[Radu]

Radu, thanks for the clarification.

 

But that's the problem right there. Children do NOT belong to the state--or at least they should not. This is the same line of reasoning which says that our rights and liberties come from the state. They do not. Our forefathers intentionally said they come from our Creator. Why? Because if the state gives us our rights, then they can take them away. The same applies with children. If you believe the state owns children, then you also believe they can take them away at any time if--in their opinion--you are deemed unfit. Sooner or later, it's inevitable that the state's definition of "unfit" clashes with yours as a parent and then...bye bye kids.

 

Children are not whole human beings.

They are human beings of the future, the future society, the ones who will perpetuate it.

Thus, while parents think that they belong to the parents, they in fact belong to the state by default.

 

The state allows the parents to exercise guardianship over them by default, and if something happens [death, mental retardation, incapability of being a good parent either through bad morals or just the sole parent sent to jail], the state steps in and makes the decisions in the best interests of the child.

That's how the state views things, all of the states in this world.

 

The state you live in right now is the continuation of the existence of some remote ****ty village, the lowest form of society that imposed itself upon other villages, created a city, that took other cities, that created a country, that helped create a federation of countries.

But at the base of it all, you are all part of this society, and in society it matters what most consider to be true ... and the rights of the minorities can be more or less taken into consideration.

 

The rights of the parents will never trump the rights of the children, that's selfishness and that's the legal foothold of the state, it will never be turned around.

 

You have to separate the fact that they f*ck up in their responsabilities and that they discriminate [the human and social element], from the law itself ... which does not really discriminate.

It's the ppl who do this.

Edited July 23, 2013 by Radu

[M30USA]

Radu, let me ask you something?

 

From where do we get our rights and liberties? The state?

[Radu]

Depends how you look at it.

From what i understand, the state.

 

But the state is mostly elected by 51% of the ppl who vote.

Hence why i see democracy as a dictatorship of the popular masses over the minorities [unless the minorities in turn shame the popular masses first].

[M30USA]

Depends how you look at it.

From what i understand, the state.

 

But the state is mostly elected by 51% of the ppl who vote.

Hence why i see democracy as a dictatorship of the popular masses over the minorities [unless the minorities in turn shame the popular masses first].

 

Then why did the founders of America INTENTIONALLY say that our rights are endowed by our Creator and that these rights are INALIENABLE?

 

The founders were brilliant when it came to learning from history. They looked back at the thousands of failed nations in human history and asked WHY? This is the reason for much of our law. Unfortunately, people like yourself want to take us back to how the thousands of failed nations on the planet have done it.

[Radu]

Afaik, the US's law system is not based on a religious system.

Initially inspired ... maybe.

The ones in some of the islamic countries as an example, are law systems based on religion.

 

Still, the founders were a bunch of ppl [some of whom slave owners] who had just about enough, got organized and led a successfull rebellion.

Should they have failed, they would not have been the founders, but some guys who started a big sh*tstorm.

[M30USA]

Afaik, the US's law system is not based on a religious system.

Initially inspired ... maybe.

The ones in some of the islamic countries as an example, are law systems based on religion.

 

Still, the founders were a bunch of ppl [some of whom slave owners] who had just about enough, got organized and led a successfull rebellion.

Should they have failed, they would not have been the founders, but some guys who started a big sh*tstorm.

 

I never said it was based on a religious system. And, contrary to what you probably think I believe, our country probably had more Freemason influence than it did Scriptural-based Jehovah God influence. But there is still the recognition of a god in Freemasonry.

[Janesays]

The founding fathers were just a couple of guys with a good idea. No different from you or me. They are not gods and therefore I don't think we should behave as though they are and ignore other men and woman who may have even better ideas. The world is changing in ways I'm sure the founding fathers would have never predicted. We need to learn to adapt to and embrace change...or die.

[M30USA]

The founding fathers were just a couple of guys with a good idea. No different from you or me. They are not gods and therefore I don't think we should behave as though they are and ignore other men and woman who may have even better ideas. The world is changing in ways I'm sure the founding fathers would have never predicted. We need to learn to adapt to and embrace change...or die.

 

I take it you have an "elastic" view of our Constitution then?

 

Hmm...maybe I need to get with the program. I think I will become progressive and start having an elastic view of murder and theft. Yea. Embrace change or die. See? I'm learning!

Edited July 23, 2013 by M30USA

[Janesays]

I take it you have an "elastic" view of our Constitution then?

 

Hmm...maybe I need to get with the program. I think I will become progressive and start having an elastic view of murder and theft. Yea. Embrace change or die. See? I'm learning!

 

Yes, I am all for making changes to the constitution when the world changes and the needs of the country also change. For example, I would have been all for abolishing slavery and giving woman the right to vote. I'm guessing by your tone that you wouldn't have?

 

I guess murder and theft are only wrong if the victim is an adult, eh? Because you don't seem to give two piles if crap if the murder victims are children abused by their parents. Screw cps and their tyrannical desire to protect helpless children, right?

[zoobadger]

Are there any other families in the area who might benefit from your babysitter's services? You could sub-let her, so to speak.

 

How much money would you be throwing down the drain if you pay her to not work for the remaining summer? Our nannies have done heavy duty housework for us under similar circumstances when the kids were at day camp etc. They were happy to do half a day's work for a full day's pay.

 

If you have an amicable relationship with a potentially explosive ex, I'd be careful not to spoil that over the sake of a little money. Maybe your ex could split her salary for the days she's not needed?

[zoobadger]

Yes, I am all for making changes to the constitution when the world changes and the needs of the country also change. For example, I would have been all for abolishing slavery and giving woman the right to vote. I'm guessing by your tone that you wouldn't have?

 

I guess murder and theft are only wrong if the victim is an adult, eh? Because you don't seem to give two piles if crap if the murder victims are children abused by their parents. Screw cps and their tyrannical desire to protect helpless children, right?

 

Off topic but the Constitution is difficult to amend for historical rather than ideological reasons. There was a fear of "factionalism" at the time where one group or a cabal of groups could hijack the government and do something crazy like banning slavery, lol..

 

And, as was so prevalent at the time, smaller states were terrified of their interests being overwhelmed by collections of bigger and more powerful states.

 

So the bar for making major changes to the constitution was set very high to placate these concerns. It was a compromise to induce anxious colonists to accept a strong federal government.

 

I agree that the original reasons for this are no longer pressing, and it would be useful to amend the Constitution to make it easier to amend the Constitution.

[Mme. Chaucer]

I don't really understand how an adults personal "rights" whether god - given or endowed by the state have anything to do with how children can, should and must be protected from untenable situations within their own homes.

 

I am a parent. I do not believe that my personal "rights" where my daughter is concerned in any way supersede her right to be protected, even if she were to need protection from what was going on within her own family.

 

I think it's pretty alarming that any parent disagrees with that.

[USMCHokie]

I don't really understand how an adults personal "rights" whether god - given or endowed by the state have anything to do with how children can, should and must be protected from untenable situations within their own homes.

 

I am a parent. I do not believe that my personal "rights" where my daughter is concerned in any way supersede her right to be protected, even if she were to need protection from what was going on within her own family.

 

I think it's pretty alarming that any parent disagrees with that.

 

I don't have kids, so I cannot empathize emotionally with someone's view of children, but why is it that children seem to hold greater "value" than adults?

[Radu]

I take it you have an "elastic" view of our Constitution then?

 

Hmm...maybe I need to get with the program. I think I will become progressive and start having an elastic view of murder and theft. Yea. Embrace change or die. See? I'm learning!

 

One difference in how we view things might be just this.

I live in Europe and here the Constitution changes; we had to change it in 2003 to prepare for joining the EU.

We are changing it again right now.

 

Even in periods of stability, a Constitution doesn't usually last more than 50yrs.

[M30USA]

I don't really understand how an adults personal "rights" whether god - given or endowed by the state have anything to do with how children can, should and must be protected from untenable situations within their own homes.

 

I am a parent. I do not believe that my personal "rights" where my daughter is concerned in any way supersede her right to be protected, even if she were to need protection from what was going on within her own family.

 

I think it's pretty alarming that any parent disagrees with that.

 

No parent disagrees with the fact that children should be protected. That is what due process is for. A court of law will determine if the child should be removed from a home--not some social worker with no legal training. Social workers in CPS have the financial incentive (not justice) as their motivation for removing children from homes. The more children they remove, the more money they get from our government.

[Janesays]

I don't have kids, so I cannot empathize emotionally with someone's view of children, but why is it that children seem to hold greater "value" than adults?

 

It's not that they hold more 'value.' It's that they have very little ability to protect themselves from abuse. An adult can go out and buy a gun, get a dog, start lifting weights. An adult can call the police and file a report if things get really hairy.

 

What is a kid going to do when Mommy is beating her head in? Heck, even assuming that a toddler could outrun an adult (Which they can't), where are they going to GO? When a child is being abused by a parent, there is ZERO chance of escape.

 

Listen, when I wiggled too much in my chair when my Mom was doing my hair, she would hold the curling iron against my head until it blistered. When I was 5, she actually sprayed my hair with hair spray and used a lighter to set it on fire. When I was 7, she made me eat spoiled food. When I threw it up, I was forced to eat a bowl of my own vomit. When I threw THAT up, I had to eat it again. This went on for HOURS until I could hold it all down. By the time I was 10, I had over 32 concussions. When I was 12, my Mother actually stabbed me with a streak knife. And that's just physical crap. I can't even speak about the emotional scars.

 

I was a kid. What was I supposed to do? I had NO WAY to protect myself.

 

CPS couldn't even protect me, because of all the bureaucratic BS, which is why I was NEVER removed from that home. It's not as 'easy' to take kids from the home as all these 'wronged' parents would like you to believe. So excuse me when I play my tiny, tiny violin when people like the OP want to complain that CPS got called on them once and they had to waste 30 minutes of their day allowing them a visit to make sure things are on the up and up. For every parent who is falsely accused and "suffers" this inconvenience, there are 20 little kids out there just like me who NEED help.

 

Listen, I was never removed from my home, but I have no doubt in my mind that if it weren't for all those calls and reports to CPS, my Mother would have killed me. She was a smart woman....she knew that record would make it impossible for her to 'get away with it' in a court of law. I really truly believe that I'm alive right now because of CPS.

 

I think people like the OP need to think about that.

[Janesays]

No parent disagrees with the fact that children should be protected. That is what due process is for. A court of law will determine if the child should be removed from a home--not some social worker with no legal training. Social workers in CPS have the financial incentive (not justice) as their motivation for removing children from homes. The more children they remove, the more money they get from our government.

 

Completely factually inaccurate. I don't know if you're ignorant or just lying.

 

CPS doesn't get 'money from the government' from destroying homes. The job and purpose of CPS is to get families they help they need to REPAIR homes. In fact, they are usually very, very RELUCTANT to actually take the child from their parents. Why? Fear of lawsuits, but more importantly, THEY USUALLY HAVE NOWHERE TO PUT THE KID.

 

So instead, they try to help with 'counseling' services and anger management classes and so on so forth....only actually taking the child as a LAST RESORT.

 

This is why I was forced to stay. Nowhere to put me. There is nowhere to put MOST kids.

 

The OP implies that CPS gets 'kick backs' for taking kids. That doesn't even make any logical sense. There is no line of healthy adults waiting to take a bunch of dirty, hungry, angry, ill behaved, abused children. And the 'government' doesn't need to the drain on taxes CREATING these places for children to go.

 

They would rather leave them in the home, wait until they get so mentally twisted by the abuse they received at the hands of the parents, and then build another prison when they grow up and inevitably become criminals themselves.

 

As ineffectual as CPS is in it's current form, at least they are TRYING to help.

[William]

It appears this thread topic is regarding a specific custody issue/question so let's keep the discussion relevant to that specific issue and save the political and ideological rhetoric for the appropriate threads and forums. Thanks.

[Els]

It's not that they hold more 'value.' It's that they have very little ability to protect themselves from abuse. An adult can go out and buy a gun, get a dog, start lifting weights. An adult can call the police and file a report if things get really hairy.

 

What is a kid going to do when Mommy is beating her head in? Heck, even assuming that a toddler could outrun an adult (Which they can't), where are they going to GO? When a child is being abused by a parent, there is ZERO chance of escape.

 

Listen, when I wiggled too much in my chair when my Mom was doing my hair, she would hold the curling iron against my head until it blistered. When I was 5, she actually sprayed my hair with hair spray and used a lighter to set it on fire. When I was 7, she made me eat spoiled food. When I threw it up, I was forced to eat a bowl of my own vomit. When I threw THAT up, I had to eat it again. This went on for HOURS until I could hold it all down. By the time I was 10, I had over 32 concussions. When I was 12, my Mother actually stabbed me with a streak knife. And that's just physical crap. I can't even speak about the emotional scars.

 

I was a kid. What was I supposed to do? I had NO WAY to protect myself.

 

CPS couldn't even protect me, because of all the bureaucratic BS, which is why I was NEVER removed from that home. It's not as 'easy' to take kids from the home as all these 'wronged' parents would like you to believe. So excuse me when I play my tiny, tiny violin when people like the OP want to complain that CPS got called on them once and they had to waste 30 minutes of their day allowing them a visit to make sure things are on the up and up. For every parent who is falsely accused and "suffers" this inconvenience, there are 20 little kids out there just like me who NEED help.

 

Listen, I was never removed from my home, but I have no doubt in my mind that if it weren't for all those calls and reports to CPS, my Mother would have killed me. She was a smart woman....she knew that record would make it impossible for her to 'get away with it' in a court of law. I really truly believe that I'm alive right now because of CPS.

 

I think people like the OP need to think about that.

 

Christ.

 

Sorry to hear this, Janesays. I genuinely sympathize with anyone who has had to go through this.