Is she having an affair

[ChooseTruth]

I knew my WW had an affair when she told me about it...no question there, no denying, etc. But I still needed to know what actually happened, what led to it, how far it went, how long, with who, where. Basic stuff. I wanted to understand it to prevent it from happening again. I needed to verify what she was telling me was the truth because, frankly her story was suspicious..and if she could be pregnant and not know the father, obviously she was capable of lying to me. So, I had to snoop to find the truth for myself, and I did eventually. That was very crucial to making the right decisions. It's also important to verify that the WS can start telling the truth. That's part of how you rebuild trust.

 

When Better says the OP is vulnerable to gaslighting, she's 100% correct. If he wants to reconcile, he needs to know the real story. This isn't just about know whether there was an affair or not. Any BS will understand this.

Edited July 22, 2013 by ChooseTruth

[Betterthanthis13]

I think it is a bit more complicated than that in most cases. Marriages aren't just based on sex. But let's pretend sex is the issue in the example you suggested and the spouse says, nope, nope, nope, and nope. Then what do you have? You are in the same position you were before you asked, but now you have created yet another negative dynamic within the relationship. What if the WS is not physically attracted to the other person any longer?

 

I'm not going to talk about serial cheaters because I think that is an ego thing coupled with a few other personality disorders.

 

I think most affairs start or at least become a possible decision based on the emotional side of the relationship. One of the most frequently talked about causes discussed here is validation. As couples go along there become issues, whether it be financial, kids, arguments, detachment, growing apart, abuse, substance abuse, and on, and on. Some of which may not be fixable. Seeking the spice that is validation is very easy because there isn't all of that baggage with the AP. It is an easy escape.

 

All the things you are saying are valid. The problem isn't your facts or observations- all those are fine and dandy. The problem lies in your underlying logic- you are trying to prove that monogamy is by random chance when it does happen, and that infidelity is a natural state, because there are so many "gray areas".

 

If your logic is true, then we as a society need to scrap the idea of marriage entirely and simply create child rearing contracts.

 

Fortunately, your logic is wrong, monogamy is logical (as is polyamory for those folks who enjoy multiple simultaneous emotional and/or sexual relationships), and we as people are all just really screwed up and messing up and clogging up the system.

 

For those who choose truth, there is a better way.

 

We just have no clue how to get there-yet. Don't worry, I'm working on it

[ChooseTruth]

For those who choose truth, there is a better way.

 

We just have no clue how to get there-yet. Don't worry, I'm working on it

 

Now, did you do that deliberately?

[Betterthanthis13]

Now, did you do that deliberately?

 

Ha! Nope that was random chance

 

There's nobody here named randomchance, is there?? Lol

[Realist3]

The problem lies in your underlying logic- you are trying to prove that monogamy is by random chance when it does happen, and that infidelity is a natural state, because there are so many "gray areas".

 

If your logic is true, then we as a society need to scrap the idea of marriage entirely and simply create child rearing contracts.

 

Don't believe I was making the case for or against monogamy in this thread. All I said is that the WS can seek the validation of an affair for any number of reasons, and 'spice' in the bedroom may not really be the issue.

 

In terms of monogamy I think it is a societal/cultural moral that has been accepted as the desired norm for just the past 2000 years of the human species' 200,000 year history.

 

Just because divorce rates and affair rates are so high does not in and of itself mean society should scrap the idea of marriage. When over 50% say they have had a partner cheat on them and close to 50% say they have cheated on their partner, it should be an accepted reality. Monogamy may be a worthy goal, but the facts of what humans end up doing can't be ignored.

[janedoe67]

Lying isn't spice. It's lying.

 

This should be a bumper sticker. Very true.

 

Sometimes you just can't have everything you want. If you love and want to keep your spouse, you don't cheat on them. If you just cannot live without whatever it is your spouse will not provide, and you have to have that, then you leave before finding it. It isn't a hard concept. People resist that concept because they want to have their cake and eat it to and avoid the tough stuff.

 

I can say that because that is what I did. The needs husband will not meet are important and legitimate needs. But if I had to have them met or die, then the moral thing to do was to leave him FIRST and then get them met elsewhere.

 

Our problem is humans is we want to change truth to fit our comfort instead of adjust our comfort to fit truth.

[Betterthanthis13]

Don't believe I was making the case for or against monogamy in this thread. All I said is that the WS can seek the validation of an affair for any number of reasons, and 'spice' in the bedroom may not really be the issue.

 

In terms of monogamy I think it is a societal/cultural moral that has been accepted as the desired norm for just the past 2000 years of the human species' 200,000 year history.

 

Just because divorce rates and affair rates are so high does not in and of itself mean society should scrap the idea of marriage. When over 50% say they have had a partner cheat on them and close to 50% say they have cheated on their partner, it should be an accepted reality. Monogamy may be a worthy goal, but the facts of what humans end up doing can't be ignored.

 

I've read "Sex at Dawn" and plenty of other literature on non monogamy being the natural way or however it is told. I have zero issue with that concept for those who feel it is right for them. I support the polyamorous community 100%.

 

I know you weren't making a case that monogamy is dead. You don't need to because that conclusion can be inferred logically by your acceptance of infidelity as natural. That's your logic flaw.

 

True statement:

People decide to cheat for many different reasons

 

False: people cheat for many different reasons

 

One word missing= Big difference, changes the whole premise your opinions about infidelity are based on. If you use the false statement in your arguments, monogamy and honest polyamory are both de facto dead dead dead

 

And infidelity is always justifiable. I don't want to live in that world. That is the imaginary world of Ashley Madison, and I dont like her.

Edited July 22, 2013 by Betterthanthis13

[Realist3]

I've read "Sex at Dawn" and plenty of other literature on non monogamy being the natural way or however it is told. I have zero issue with that concept for those who feel it is right for them. I support the polyamorous community 100%.

 

I know you weren't making a case that monogamy is dead. You don't need to because that conclusion can be inferred logically by your acceptance of infidelity as natural. That's your logic flaw.

 

True statement:

People decide to cheat for many different reasons

 

False: people cheat for many different reasons

 

One word missing= Big difference, changes the whole premise your opinions about infidelity are based on. If you use the false statement in your arguments, monogamy and honest polyamory are both de facto dead dead dead

 

And infidelity is always justifiable. I don't want to live in that world. That is the imaginary world of Ashley Madison, and I dont like her.

 

You are misreading what I said. I know you may be fairly new here, but I have always stated that cheating is the cheaters choice/decision no matter what reasons they may use to justify their actions in their minds.

 

But just because it is their choice/decision doesn't mean those reasons don't exist as a reality.

 

I also alluded to the fact that cheating is a way of getting validation that is much easier than trying to change a spouse that they may have an issue with.

[grassisorisntgreener]

 

I also alluded to the fact that cheating is a way of getting validation that is much easier than trying to change a spouse that they may have an issue with.

 

Boy is that ever true...

[Realist3]

I don't want to live in that world. That is the imaginary world of Ashley Madison, and I dont like her.

 

While I may not like AM, it is very very real, not imaginary. You said something about delusional earlier. Not recognizing the reality might fit into the category.

[bobwhite007]

Don't say anything untill you know the whole truth or you end up like me.And its no fun.mine went silent and had ezcuses for eveyrthing .its hard to pretend nothings wrong believe me.but if you wanna know the truth let it go t ill you know.if I had what you have now though I'd begone.

[Betterthanthis13]

While I may not like AM, it is very very real, not imaginary. You said something about delusional earlier. Not recognizing the reality might fit into the category.

 

It's all too real- it's a real business that grosses $60 million a year. And it is also symbolic of the current culture's attitude toward infidelity- meh, everyone else is doing it. Can't change it. If you can't beat em join em.

 

I apologize for assuming you disagreed with the concept of cheating being a choice. You are right, I am new and shouldn't make assumptions. I was typing replie on my phone with one hand while trying to do something else. Not an excuse though- it was my choice to reply hastily, I could have waited.

 

So that makes you, in my mind- a possible look into the future if things remain as they are in society. Acceptance of infidelity, a lot of knowledge about the ins and outs of it, recognizes it is a choice- and chooses to participate anyway.

 

What would you say is your position on cheating in general in a concise statement?

[Realist3]

What would you say is your position on cheating in general in a concise statement?

 

 

Hmmm... I guess my position is that people are going to do what people are going to do. I can't control what someone else in their life's journey decides is best for them at any given time. I don't have some idyllic visions or expectations. I don't promote it, but I know it is a part of the fabric of reality.

[Betterthanthis13]

I read your post 3 times now... Still perplexed. Not pro affair, believe cheating is a choice, but disillusioned?

 

Apathy? Anarchy? Let someone else deal with it?

 

You think we should give up? People do what pople do? Why bother even talking then? Just **** who you want and be bored until death happens? I dot think you really think that.

 

What would you tell a college freshman about life, marriage, and women?

[Realist3]

I read your post 3 times now... Still perplexed. Not pro affair, believe cheating is a choice, but disillusioned?

 

Apathy? Anarchy? Let someone else deal with it?

 

You think we should give up? People do what pople do? Why bother even talking then? Just **** who you want and be bored until death happens? I dot think you really think that.

 

What would you tell a college freshman about life, marriage, and women?

 

What I mean is that I'm not going to suggest someone should have an affair because it comes at a very heavy price. And that is not even talking about the heavy price of being discovered. The price is the dynamics of a relationship that is carried on outside the confines of what is considered acceptable. You can go over to the OM/OW board and pick almost any thread and see that it is not a picnic. While the good feelings tend to overshadow the downside, but affairs take a toll on the participating parties.

 

 

You think we should give up? People do what pople do?

 

"...we should give up?" Give up on what? What does that even mean? Are you talking about the idyllic image of marriage? That is up to the individual.

 

Yes, people do what they want to do, and they will go to great lengths to do what they want to do, whether or not it fits within the expected behaviors of societal norms; and there is absolutely nothing anyone can do about that. I doesn't matter what type of behavior we could discuss. You can't control another individual.

 

 

What would you tell a college freshman about life, marriage, and women?

 

About life I would tell them to explore everything they can. Never stop learning, never stop being curious, don't sit on the sidelines.

 

About marriage? Don't get married until your frontal lobe is fully developed, and you know who YOU are, what you want out of life, and what you want in a partner.

 

Women? That's a joke,... right? I don't think you can put women, or men for that matter, in some neat little box and say "This is what they are." I would say find someone you love and make the most of it for as long as it lasts, with the realization that it may not last forever.

[sandyyjan]

Thanks for all the comments/ suggestions/ advices.

Our life is going on very smoothly. I don't know what might have provoked her to start an affair. We have average sexual life as well and she seems satisfied with that as well.

From the comments, it seems that she is indeed having an affair and that too PA.

I can't discuss with her so how can I get more details?

I am keeping a track over her movements but nothing suspicious has come to my notice.

Was it a momentary affair or she is just getting cautious. I am not finding any BBM exchange with OM now in her mobile. Is she playing a double game on me?

In fact a few days back, I cooked up a similar story making an unknown person as me. I told her that I met this person on Golf couse. She evinced lot of interest. Today also she asked whether I could find out more details about his affair with a married woman. I said why are you so interested to know? She said just for curioisity sake.

[Realist3]

WHat do you have access to of hers? Obviously the phone. What about any emails or social networking sites?

 

Asking for more details about the made up affair you mentioned to her is curious.

[Steadfast]

Yes, people do what they want to do, and they will go to great lengths to do what they want to do, whether or not it fits within the expected behaviors of societal norms; and there is absolutely nothing anyone can do about that. I doesn't matter what type of behavior we could discuss. You can't control another individual.

 

No, you can't control someone else but you can council, set an example, warn, admonish, dismiss or wait patiently for change.

 

I recognize this angle. Cheater wisdom says a betrayed spouse must continue to love regardless of their own actions. If they don't, the love is judged as not being genuine. Good people forgive and are always understanding or they're hypocrites. The selfish place themselves first and separate then claim it's only natural to do so. But only natural for them.

 

Admonishing a cheater, a betrayer or any liar and issuing a warning about the danger of same has nothing to do with "societal norms". Which is another way of saying that evolution might eventually work cheating, betrayal and other forms of abuse into everyday life as acceptable behavior. This is no less true than warning a child about the dangers of a hot stove or an unattended swimming pool. Lying, cheating and infidelity cause devastation and pain to not only the betrayer and spouse, but the uncounted innocent who are forced to endure pain not of their own choosing. To justify/shift guilt, the cheater must label the action as natural or unavoidable. Those who do not accept the lie are branded judgmental.

[Realist3]

^ No, that is not what I meant at all. Way off base. What I said had nothing to do with what a BS must or must not do. Nor did it have anything to do with anyone being hypocritical.

[Betterthanthis13]

Thanks for all the comments/ suggestions/ advices.

Our life is going on very smoothly. I don't know what might have provoked her to start an affair. We have average sexual life as well and she seems satisfied with that as well.

From the comments, it seems that she is indeed having an affair and that too PA.

I can't discuss with her so how can I get more details?

I am keeping a track over her movements but nothing suspicious has come to my notice.

Was it a momentary affair or she is just getting cautious. I am not finding any BBM exchange with OM now in her mobile. Is she playing a double game on me?

In fact a few days back, I cooked up a similar story making an unknown person as me. I told her that I met this person on Golf couse. She evinced lot of interest. Today also she asked whether I could find out more details about his affair with a married woman. I said why are you so interested to know? She said just for curioisity sake.

 

Can you access her computer? Facebook, email, web browser history? There's always an electronic trail of something.

 

Look through the credit card statements and phone bills for the last few months and look for anomalies.

 

Google her email address(es)

 

Do you remember the bbm name she was in contact with?

 

That's all I can think of without breaking any laws

[Betterthanthis13]

What I mean is that I'm not going to suggest someone should have an affair because it comes at a very heavy price. And that is not even talking about the heavy price of being discovered. The price is the dynamics of a relationship that is carried on outside the confines of what is considered acceptable. You can go over to the OM/OW board and pick almost any thread and see that it is not a picnic. While the good feelings tend to overshadow the downside, but affairs take a toll on the participating parties.

 

 

 

 

"...we should give up?" Give up on what? What does that even mean? Are you talking about the idyllic image of marriage? That is up to the individual.

 

Give up on hope. Should "we"-society at large- in your opinion, give up on the idea that we can trust a spouse to be faithful?

 

Yes, people do what they want to do, and they will go to great lengths to do what they want to do, whether or not it fits within the expected behaviors of societal norms; and there is absolutely nothing anyone can do about that. I doesn't matter what type of behavior we could discuss. You can't control another individual.

 

Societal norms change over time. I don't want to control anybody. I think the societal norms are the problem. What do you think about that?

 

 

About life I would tell them to explore everything they can. Never stop learning, never stop being curious, don't sit on the sidelines.

 

About marriage? Don't get married until your frontal lobe is fully developed, and you know who YOU are, what you want out of life, and what you want in a partner.

 

Agree

 

Women? That's a joke,... right? I don't think you can put women, or men for that matter, in some neat little box and say "This is what they are." I would say find someone you love and make the most of it for as long as it lasts, with the realization that it may not last forever.

 

Not a joke, I just shouldn't have said that. Women men or any group can't be put in a neat little box.

 

So people should wait longer to get married, ok cool- but marriage is supposed to be "forever". So why would a person not think it can last forever? What's the point of anyone getting married then?

 

Is the premise of marriage just a nice thought, but unrealistic? If so, wouldn't it be prudent of us to examine implementing a different system that is not designed to (more than 50% of the time) fail?

 

[Realist3]

Give up on hope. Should "we"-society at large- in your opinion, give up on the idea that we can trust a spouse to be faithful?

 

I don't necessarily know if people should give up hope. I hope for a lot of things, but I realize that things may not turn out that way. I think hope is something that keeps people going in many instances.

 

 

 

Societal norms change over time. I don't want to control anybody. I think the societal norms are the problem. What do you think about that?

 

I agree that they do change over time. You take any issue that has shown change, women's suffrage, slavery, having a baby out of wedlock, gay marriage, divorce, alcohol, marijuana, and on, and on. Some people accept the changes and others fight like hell to keep them from changing.

 

I think societal norms could be considered a problem if one is on the outside of those norms. With that being said, there are many norms that promote a healthy society. I don't view the expectation or hope of fidelity in a marriage as a problem. I think the reaction to infidelity throughout time has been a problem. We used to stone them, in some countries they still do; we used to make them wear a scarlet letter. Are those reactions healthy? No. Even today we read about people right here that advocate publically humiliating a cheating spouse as much as they possibly can.

 

So where I would say the problem lies is within the reactions to the non-conformity to those social norms, not necessarily the social norms themselves.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Not a joke, I just shouldn't have said that. Women men or any group can't be put in a neat little box.

 

So people should wait longer to get married, ok cool- but marriage is supposed to be "forever". So why would a person not think it can last forever? What's the point of anyone getting married then?

 

The premise/hope is that it will last forever and I don't see anything wrong with that at all. I just think it is wise to accept that after a decade or three two people may not be the same people they were when they exchanged vows to stay together forever. My wife and I are completely different people than we were 20 years ago. If we met for the first time today there is not one chance in hell we would even go out on a date, much less get married. That is not either one's fault, iust just what is.

 

Is the premise of marriage just a nice thought, but unrealistic? If so, wouldn't it be prudent of us to examine implementing a different system that is not designed to (more than 50% of the time) fail?

 

[/b]

 

Yes, I think it is a nice thought. I don't know if there really is a way to change anything to make sure it doesn't fail at such a high rate. People's relationships are fluid matters, and that goes for friendships, lovers, business partners, and marriages. My issue is not so much that I think the system needs fixing, it is more that we should make the decision more rationally. 20 years ago and previous if you were a woman coming out of college and did't have a man picked out you were seen to be right on your way to old maid status. That was a societal norm. I believe that societal norm, as well as the acceptance of divorce, has led to much of the explosion we have seen in the divorce rate. Used to be you would just live through an unhappy marriage the rest of your life no matter what.

[Bryanp]

I think you should insist that the both of you get STD testing and confront her.

No consequences to her actions equals no motivation to change. She has humiliated and disrespected you in the worst possible way. If you do not respect yourself then who will?