Do you think MM/MW would cheat on you if you were in the same boat as the BS?

[Got it]

I think the disrespect is greater towards the AP. For me to sit there and watch a friend lie to his business partner day to day and still think I am immune is arrogance. But they are also willing to show you their deceitful side because they feel safe enough to think you are not offended by it.

 

My friends are a reflection of me. And if I see someone being a backstabber and liar, especially to the one they live with, it leaves a really bad taste in my mouth. #1, that they can be so disrespectful and manipulative. #2. Thinking they can do that in front of me and I have no problem with it.

 

It shown lack of integrity,respect and low character. To insult me further by taking me into his crap makes it worse. It says I know you have no morals. So you will not mind listening to me constantly lie or manipulate someone. !!! If I see someone doing something bad or disrespectful to someone else, I call them out! Right is right,wrong is wrong. What gives them the right to destroy and disrespect someone like that????

 

Martin Luther King has said "Judge a man by the content of his character". But I guess many do not adhere to that. They believe a man who shows low character to you,just trust you and loves you more than the one he backstabs.

 

At least, he tries to hide his bad character from his wife and kids since he probably understands, they may not be as accepting of their Bullcrap as someone who does not care about the content of character.

 

Really!?! I can't say I agree. Sorry but someone lying, cheating, and screwing someone else behind my back definitely seems like the bigger disrespect.

 

You know that MLK was also a serial cheater, right?

[jlola]

Really!?! I can't say I agree. Sorry but someone lying, cheating, and screwing someone else behind my back definitely seems like the bigger disrespect.

 

You know that MLK was also a serial cheater, right?

 

MLK was a serial cheater. I disagree ith that. But agree judging by character is right.

 

As for the person willing to forgive the backstabbing. That is on them as they have a history,finance and family involved.

 

I have 2 sisters and I have been backstabbed by my cheating sister in the past. So has my other sister. We choose,because of history,being siblings and deep love developed by experiences we have shared to forgive her.

 

But had she been just a friend, she would not have had 2 seconds with me. I would not be speaking with her.

 

Again, I say if a person so quickly is showing me low character, I will leave ASAP!!! The key word is they showed it from the very beginning. Look, a drug dealer or addict will not come up to me and tell me what they do. A thieve won't come share either. that is unless he sees something in me that tells him I will be down with the program .

 

I may actually know people who are drug addicts or thieves. I don't know. But they have not shown me that side of them yet. If they do, they are out the door.

 

Now if you ask me if I have a family member who is a drug addict I do have 1. I see him occasionally at family functions. Otherwise, i would not engage. But he is family, we have a history and it has a whole different light on just meeting him and going along with his program.

 

I consider married couples as family,because they are a family unit. Share in-laws,children,finances and history.

 

What I put up with from family, is not what I put up with from strangers.BIG difference!

[MissBee]

MB - I agree but on the flip side. From an AP you see how they may treat one other person, for a BS you have seen how they will treat you specifically.

 

So the gamble is greater, on that front, on the BS side because they have already shown they will disrespect, lie and cheat towards you specifically. Now you have more time in position to glean other, counter, behavior to try and make the best decision.

 

On the front of the AP, while you will see that they did it to someone else, you are also going to look at the how you are treated directly. Same mental exercise.

 

Either way, what I am trying to point out, it is ultimately a leap of faith where one is hoping the poor behavior is the exception not the rule.

 

Agreed.

 

I meant to respond to Owl, but your post reminded me as well, that in terms of reconciliation versus transition, the premises are different and there are pros and cons to it.

 

As you said, the AP sees how they treated another person and not them. I think it ties into my response to Owl which is: I think more work goes into a reconciliation because the BS was betrayed and that relationship has to be rebuilt. A rebuilding is harder than a transition. In a genuine reconciliation ( not one where the BS/WS just rug sweep and reset like all is well) there is a lot of ups, downs, emotions, anger, resentment, paranoia, fears, and A LOT to be worked through. The WS has to actually put in work and make a show of doing things differently, being transparent, addressing their own issues and the marriage, and it's really quite a lot, that after all that work, if it is successful, the BS, while they will never go back to not thinking it could happen, have witnessed consistent hard work and proof on their spouse's part of change. If a WS genuinely reconciles and has to do all that, I understand how it's not fun, it brings you face to face with yourself and can make a BS feel more secure that they will less likely do it again as all of those negative consequences and work to rebuild were no cake-walk.

 

On the other hand, since for the APs, it's different, they weren't betrayed, they were just a witness to the betrayal, they are in love, it is a newer relationship with what that entails, the WS doesn't have to prove or do much, they already gave them the benefit of the doubt (especially in cases where the BS is set up as scapegoat) and there is a true belief the WS did it "only because of this person", it can be easier to not feel a need to question or put in much introspection and personal work on self into a transition. It is easier to externalize it, in the very sense that, they didn't do it to me, and this relationship is different, so things will be different. That I think is a downfall or possible con to to the transition side: a false security which comes from externalizing because you weren't betrayed.

 

So yea, in both cases, a leap of faith is taken, however, faith without works is dead as they say! So you can't just have random faith, and by nature, a reconciliation which is genuine is impossible to be had without the work, while by its nature, a transition can be easier had without intense work, which may sometimes bite the APs in the butt later. Hence, I think, APs transitioning should make the infidelity a thing to address, that should be the due diligence, like you and Summer Breeze seem to have made a point of doing with your SO's. I think that's prudent and I think no AP should simply write off the infidelity and externalize it as something they did to someone....they did it to someone...the someone isn't important, it's the fact that THEY, your partner is the one who did it...and when the BS is gone, you still have them...the same person who did it....so that should definitely be addressed.

Edited July 24, 2013 by MissBee

[Snowflower]

Really!?! I can't say I agree. Sorry but someone lying, cheating, and screwing someone else behind my back definitely seems like the bigger disrespect.

 

You know that MLK was also a serial cheater, right?

 

So really, it all comes down to a BS who stays with a WS (for whatever reason) is somehow less than someone who establishes a relationship with someone who is a known liar, cheat, deceiver, etc.

[Silly_Girl]

MB - I agree but on the flip side. From an AP you see how they may treat one other person, for a BS you have seen how they will treat you specifically.

 

So the gamble is greater, on that front, on the BS side because they have already shown they will disrespect, lie and cheat towards you specifically. Now you have more time in position to glean other, counter, behavior to try and make the best decision.

 

On the front of the AP, while you will see that they did it to someone else, you are also going to look at the how you are treated directly. Same mental exercise.

 

Either way, what I am trying to point out, it is ultimately a leap of faith where one is hoping the poor behavior is the exception not the rule.

 

The spouse has made a public, open, solemn commitment to behave a certain way towards their husband/wife, and so the betrayal could be enormous. It might be impossible to turn back from. It might feel as though (for a time at least) the marriage is built on lies and deceit and the person they thought they were marrying didn't actually exist.

 

The AP may see a person with their hands up saying "I f***ed up, I got in to a situation I shouldn't have done, I didn't deal with it as I should have done. I don't want this as my life, I want more, I have learnt, I can be open with you unlike any other, I trust you and can be myself". And the AP is not duped or deceived.

 

The argument could rumble on for at least 100 more pages

 

Personally, an affair was too much hassle for me, I'll not be arsed with that again, but I don't regret it and learnt a lot about myself and my needs and wants. I think *I* was the winner in my affair

[krazikat]

Oh I have lots of regrets about some of the choices I made when I was young. No I don't regret my son, I love him and couldn't imagine my life without him. I do regret the circumstances under which he came into my life. I wish I had been more mature when I had him, I wish I had finished school first and had a good job, I wish I had chosen a better father for him. And my regrets are not so much for myself as they are for him. He deserved better. He deserved a better mother and a better father. He suffered the consequences of my immaturity. It would be rather easy for me to say "well it all turned out fine and dandy for me and I love him so I have no regrets" but how could I not regret that my son had to pay a price for my choices.

 

I completely get what you are saying...I also was a teen mom.

[Got it]

So really, it all comes down to a BS who stays with a WS (for whatever reason) is somehow less than someone who establishes a relationship with someone who is a known liar, cheat, deceiver, etc.

 

Yes Snowflower, with EVERYTHING I have said, that is exactly my point. Yes the BS is "less than".

 

Please don't read things to fit into some sort of agenda. I have never said ANYTHING about anyone's worth. Nor a comparison of two people in any sort of competition, value scale, etc.

[cocorico]

Totally agree with Missbee's assessment above. Thought I'd add a bit to it as well.

 

The WS who works to reconcile with a BS ends up seeing the negatives to their choices to lie and deceive. They witness first hand the damage they've done, they spend a lot of time and effort working to rebuild the trust they shattered through these actions, and they spend a good bit of time looking back at what they've done with an eye to changing the future.

 

In short, they're pretty much forced to suffer some consequences for the negative behavior, and end up learning some valuable life-lessons to help them to learn not to repeat that behavior.

 

A WS in an affair...or one who ends the marriage and moves on to a relationship with their former affair partner...doesn't learn this lesson. In fact, they BENEFIT from this behavior. It teaches them that it's an effective tool to add to their arsenal.

 

In short...why SHOULDN'T they do it again?

 

Some key differences to consider, in my opinion.

 

You've clearly never transitioned an A to a M, if you think there is no hard work, no consequences and lesson learning involved.

 

Sure, they get a reward at the end of it - a healthy R with the fAP. But I would have thought that a reconciling WS would have considered a reconciled M to be a reward, too - else why would they do it? If you're suggesting that only the WS who exits the M can get any reward for their efforts, why does any WS bother reconciling? I think that's a pretty sad assessment and I do hope it's not an accurate reflection of your own reconciled M!

[cocorico]

 

On the other hand, since for the APs, it's different, they weren't betrayed, they were just a witness to the betrayal, they are in love, it is a newer relationship with what that entails, the WS doesn't have to prove or do much, they already gave them the benefit of the doubt (especially in cases where the BS is set up as scapegoat) and there is a true belief the WS did it "only because of this person", it can be easier to not feel a need to question or put in much introspection and personal work on self into a transition. It is easier to externalize it, in the very sense that, they didn't do it to me, and this relationship is different, so things will be different. That I think is a downfall or possible con to to the transition side: a false security which comes from externalizing because you weren't betrayed.

 

Is this for real? You've obviously never been through it, if you think this resembles the reality in any way. Well, perhaps on the Jerry Springer Show, but certainly not among real people with real brain cells who don't get their opinions off Oprah.

 

How many divorces have you lived through? How many family reconfigurations and blendings, how many sellings of dream homes and splitting of cherished assets and career disruptions and extended family fall outs and friend renegotiations and children's disappointments and fighting over who gets the pets have you lived through without introspection and emotional work? I guess there are some people who just flit along through life like a butterfly, but most people agonise *too much* over stuff rather than too little.

 

Still, if it works for you, it's probably better for your blood pressure.

[Owl]

You've clearly never transitioned an A to a M, if you think there is no hard work, no consequences and lesson learning involved.

 

Clearly.

 

 

Sure, they get a reward at the end of it - a healthy R with the fAP. But I would have thought that a reconciling WS would have considered a reconciled M to be a reward, too - else why would they do it? If you're suggesting that only the WS who exits the M can get any reward for their efforts, why does any WS bother reconciling? I think that's a pretty sad assessment and I do hope it's not an accurate reflection of your own reconciled M!

 

Clearly you've never reconciled a marriage after infidelity, if you think the effort of trying to establish a new relationship with your affair partner is in any way comparable to rebuilding the damaged trust and destroyed family dynamic after infidelity.

 

You're missing the realization that it takes a hell of a lot more work to reconcile a marriage after infidelity...for exactly the reasons that everyone has been citing about how an affair partner implicitly trusts the MM blindly, whereas a BS has had that trust shattered and destroyed.

 

In both cases, there is a reward. In the case of a reconciled marriage, the WS had to work their butts off to earn that reward, whereas it's pretty much handed to them by default in the post-marriage-A-turned-relationship in the majority of situations.

[Snowflower]

Yes Snowflower, with EVERYTHING I have said, that is exactly my point. Yes the BS is "less than".

 

Please don't read things to fit into some sort of agenda. I have never said ANYTHING about anyone's worth. Nor a comparison of two people in any sort of competition, value scale, etc.

 

 

 

I have no more agenda than anyone else here. Just pointing out the obvious.

 

Carry on .

[cocorico]

In both cases, there is a reward. In the case of a reconciled marriage, the WS had to work their butts off to earn that reward, whereas it's pretty much handed to them by default in the post-marriage-A-turned-relationship in the majority of situations.

 

I can't speak about " the majority of As that transition to Ms", only what I've lived through or witnessed at close quarters myself, and that on no way resembles your claims. I've not seen any research on this (proper research, not anecdotage) so am not sure of the source of your claims about " the majority" of such situations - are you referring to the majority of such you know intimately in your personal life? A local study of your neighbourhood? A global study? Please can you provide more information so that I can asses whether "the majority" you speak of is numerically more, less or of similar magnitude to the amount of cases with which I am well acquainted.

Edited July 25, 2013 by cocorico

[Got it]

I have no more agenda than anyone else here. Just pointing out the obvious.

 

Carry on .

 

Obviously wrong. But carry on.

[Got it]

Clearly.

 

 

 

 

Clearly you've never reconciled a marriage after infidelity, if you think the effort of trying to establish a new relationship with your affair partner is in any way comparable to rebuilding the damaged trust and destroyed family dynamic after infidelity.

 

You're missing the realization that it takes a hell of a lot more work to reconcile a marriage after infidelity...for exactly the reasons that everyone has been citing about how an affair partner implicitly trusts the MM blindly, whereas a BS has had that trust shattered and destroyed.

 

In both cases, there is a reward. In the case of a reconciled marriage, the WS had to work their butts off to earn that reward, whereas it's pretty much handed to them by default in the post-marriage-A-turned-relationship in the majority of situations.

 

I really can't speak to any other A turned marriages but I can speak to marriages involving infidelity. And THAT, didn't happen. Maybe there are some that reconcile out of blood, sweat and tears, but most that I have seen, my parents, my friends' parents, my husband's with his wife's affair, all involved some major blow up and then just the passage of time/rug sweeping.

 

There was no hard working WS that earned this reward. They just allowed time to pass and no one wanted to divorce so time marched on.

[HopingAgain]

I have been pressed for time the past few days but continue to follow this thread and see some good points coming from all sides. I have to jump back in and say though, as a woman who has transitioned from an affair into a marriage, and then become a BS with the same AP turned husband, Reconciliation has been EXCEEDINGLY more difficult so far than transitioning from an affair. We are only 6 months out, but this has taken more work and effort from both of us than years of the transitioning process from an affair into marriage. Reconcilation within a marriage where an affair has taken place forces each person to really examine themselves and the relationship, in ways that just doesn't happen in a transition from an affair.

[Silly_Girl]

I have been pressed for time the past few days but continue to follow this thread and see some good points coming from all sides. I have to jump back in and say though, as a woman who has transitioned from an affair into a marriage, and then become a BS with the same AP turned husband, Reconciliation has been EXCEEDINGLY more difficult so far than transitioning from an affair. We are only 6 months out, but this has taken more work and effort from both of us than years of the transitioning process from an affair into marriage. Reconcilation within a marriage where an affair has taken place forces each person to really examine themselves and the relationship, in ways that just doesn't happen in a transition from an affair.

 

It could be argued that sufficient work not being done in the first place (A-turned-marriage) is what led to the affair. Not saying that's the case but each fAP will have a different set of requirements when transitioning forward, and I would imagine what they are and how they're managed between the couple could well have a strong bearing on future behaviours.

[Anna-Belle]

Reconcilation within a marriage where an affair has taken place forces each person to really examine themselves and the relationship, in ways that just doesn't happen in a transition from an affair.

 

Perhaps it differs depending on the people involved. I can say that there has been infinitely more examination and introspection in the EMR now transitioning into a public relationship that I presently am involved in, than during my prior experiences with reconciliation. During reconciliation it was more about ending the EMR and staying together. It required a lot less effort and introspection of the WS to end the EMR than it does to end the marriage. Which may be the reason why so many stay married at Dday.

[Owl]

I can't speak about " the majority of As that transition to Ms", only what I've lived through or witnessed at close quarters myself, and that on no way resembles your claims. I've not seen any research on this (proper research, not anecdotage) so am not sure of the source of your claims about " the majority" of such situations - are you referring to the majority of such you know intimately in your personal life? A local study of your neighbourhood? A global study? Please can you provide more information so that I can asses whether "the majority" you speak of is numerically more, less or of similar magnitude to the amount of cases with which I am well acquainted.

 

Ahhh...so when you don't have a real basis to pick apart the content of my posts, you want to resort to knit-picking the use of a word..."many".

 

Please...stop trying to waste either of our time with games like this, and let's try to stay on topic?

[2sure]

I have been pressed for time the past few days but continue to follow this thread and see some good points coming from all sides. I have to jump back in and say though, as a woman who has transitioned from an affair into a marriage, and then become a BS with the same AP turned husband, Reconciliation has been EXCEEDINGLY more difficult so far than transitioning from an affair. We are only 6 months out, but this has taken more work and effort from both of us than years of the transitioning process from an affair into marriage. Reconcilation within a marriage where an affair has taken place forces each person to really examine themselves and the relationship, in ways that just doesn't happen in a transition from an affair.

 

Thank you for sharing this as well as contributing in general. Your posts regarding your experience really come off as authentic and sincere.

You are experiencing the topic of the thread, while many are guessing. This is valuable . I was OW prior to becoming BS (different relationships) - and although we ended up divorcing, I thought my past experience with infidelity helped me kind of put it into perspective.

 

I wish you the best.

[Owl]

I really can't speak to any other A turned marriages but I can speak to marriages involving infidelity. And THAT, didn't happen. Maybe there are some that reconcile out of blood, sweat and tears, but most that I have seen, my parents, my friends' parents, my husband's with his wife's affair, all involved some major blow up and then just the passage of time/rug sweeping.

 

There was no hard working WS that earned this reward. They just allowed time to pass and no one wanted to divorce so time marched on.

 

I would argue that this wasn't a "true" reconciliation.

 

As you stated...that was rug-sweeping.

 

Not at all what I'm referring to.

[Journee]

Maybe I am a bit jaded... but even if I were to move on in life and begin a new relationship with someone that I had zero history with ,I would still never put anything passed them. I would never say what someone would not or could not do. Heck, I have been surprised by some choices I have made so how could I possibly be certain about another?

 

No one can single handedly ensure that a relationship will stay on track but one can single handedly ensure that it doesn't. Most folks don't want to think about the one they love making the choice to step out. It happens all the time to folks who would bet the farm that their mate would never and could never. I would like to think that people deserve fidelity and truth. The AP is not more or less deserving IMO. It's not about being better than and this isn't a competition I would say their are many winners in.

 

Even if someone stays completely faithful in a relationship it is not a direct reflection on their partner all of the time. If I stay faithful it because I made the choice to be. If I choose to cheat that is my choice too not that my H has it coming or something.

 

All anyone can do regardless of their past or involvement in affairs , is be themselves and love their partner fully.

[MissBee]

Is this for real? You've obviously never been through it, if you think this resembles the reality in any way. Well, perhaps on the Jerry Springer Show, but certainly not among real people with real brain cells who don't get their opinions off Oprah.

 

How many divorces have you lived through? How many family reconfigurations and blendings, how many sellings of dream homes and splitting of cherished assets and career disruptions and extended family fall outs and friend renegotiations and children's disappointments and fighting over who gets the pets have you lived through without introspection and emotional work? I guess there are some people who just flit along through life like a butterfly, but most people agonise *too much* over stuff rather than too little.

 

Still, if it works for you, it's probably better for your blood pressure.

 

Because there is only one reality?

 

The point is: the type of work put into a reconciliation differs from the type of work put into a transition and requires different mental orientations. You obviously have never reconciled with someone who betrayed you if you feel that process emotionally is the same as transitioning from an affair to an open R. From the mere fact that it's not a rebuilding with the resentment of a betrayal, the type of proving of one's self with all the negative feelings attached and distrust, differs from transitioning, even if there are points of similarity.

 

I can't speak about " the majority of As that transition to Ms", only what I've lived through or witnessed at close quarters myself, and that on no way resembles your claims. I've not seen any research on this (proper research, not anecdotage) so am not sure of the source of your claims about " the majority" of such situations - are you referring to the majority of such you know intimately in your personal life? A local study of your neighbourhood? A global study? Please can you provide more information so that I can asses whether "the majority" you speak of is numerically more, less or of similar magnitude to the amount of cases with which I am well acquainted.

 

I think you should lead off with your own proper research first, which illustrates that what you assert is not simply your own reality or wish for reality . If you're unwilling, don't bother to ask other people to do the same.

 

However, it is simple common sense that transitioning an affair and reconciling after an affair require different mental and emotional orientations, and one doesn't need research to prove this simple concept.

Edited July 25, 2013 by MissBee

[Silly_Girl]

I would argue that this wasn't a "true" reconciliation.

 

As you stated...that was rug-sweeping.

 

Not at all what I'm referring to.

 

My thoughts exactly. But a lot of other people seem to think 'Not divorcing' = 'Reconciled'.

 

I see it very differently indeed.

[Owl]

My thoughts exactly. But a lot of other people seem to think 'Not divorcing' = 'Reconciled'.

 

I see it very differently indeed.

 

And in this at least...we agree.

[Owl]

I think you should lead off with your own proper research first, which illustrates that what you assert is not simply your own reality or wish for reality . If you're unwilling, don't bother to ask other people to do the same.

 

However, it is simple common sense that transitioning an affair and reconciling after an affair require different mental and emotional orientations, and one doesn't need research to prove this simple concept.

 

Yeah...gotta agree with that.