The "Shallow" Debate

[MrCastle]

I think the real issue is people wanting to change other people.

 

If you really think someone is shallow, you think, "Wow, that person is shallow and boring" and then you move on with your life. When people complain about other people being shallow, they're really saying, "I am attracted to that person and want them to stop being themselves and transform into the fantasy person I've built up in my mind". And that fantasy person, of course, is madly in love with the first person.

 

I think half the problems on this board would go away if people just accepted that they can't control other people.

 

While I agree that you shouldn't harp on one individual's preferences, I see no problem in making someone see the other side of things. Making them think, or in some cases, tell them they're wrong.

 

If a woman refused to date a black man because in her mind "they're all ghetto," I wouldn't sit back and say "well that's her opinion. She doesn't like black people. That's her choice."

 

I would tell her no, that's ignorant. That's not okay to believe.

 

You don't have to try to change their perception, but letting someone know you disagree fundamentally with their beliefs? I see no issue with that.

[MrCastle]

Yeah - but I know people who really ARE shallow.

 

One dude in my social circle is going to turn 40 this year and starting to freak out that he's still single.

 

But if you look at his dating history, it's full of young, immature women, single moms with drug problems, dingbats and gold-diggers (he's very wealthy).

 

The one thing they all had in common? Incredibly pretty with huge racks.

 

Sorry - but THAT is shallow.

 

I've said this everytime a shallow related discussion popped up. Shallow people exist. Surely we've all seen them. I mean again, in real life, that belief is a non issue. In real life, the discussion is more so what constitutes as shallow, whereas online, the discussion is whether or not shallowness exists.

 

If we were talking in real life, I'd be discussing what made certain people shallow, not questioning its existence.

 

I've seen shallow people with my own eyes. They are among us.

[KungFuJoe]

There is a difference between attraction and bias.

 

If you don't date black people because you don't like how the color of their skin looks...no problem. If you don't date black people because you think they're all

"ghetto"...that's racist and a whole other story.

[KungFuJoe]

The problem I have is when a negative connotation is applied to being "shallow".

 

There's nothing wrong with being shallow in the sense that you're overly picky. Again, it might limit your viable options if you're too picky, but so be it. It's either that, or settling.

 

IMO, shallow > settling.

[MrCastle]

The problem I have is when a negative connotation is applied to being "shallow".

 

There's nothing wrong with being shallow in the sense that you're overly picky. Again, it might limit your viable options if you're too picky, but so be it. It's either that, or settling.

 

IMO, shallow > settling.

 

We all "settle" technically. The idea we have in our heads is of the perfect person. But perfection doesn't exist.

 

Either you're going to budge on personality flaws, or physical flaws.

 

I think part of love is accepting the flaws of your partner and being okay with it.

[therhythm]

Well if caring about the looks of the person you want to have a relationship with is shallow then I am shallow and I have no problem recognizing it. I am a very visual person and I would never date a woman who is not attractive and I don't care how intelligent, sweet or good person she may be... I am not going to date her if she is not physically attractive for me.

I also care about personality but that comes after she is physically attractive...

[Drseussgrrl]

Well if caring about the looks of the person you want to have a relationship with is shallow then I am shallow and I have no problem recognizing it. I am a very visual person and I would never date a woman who is not attractive and I don't care how intelligent, sweet or good person she may be... I am not going to date her if she is not physically attractive for me.

I also care about personality but that comes after she is physically attractive...

 

I don't think anyone is saying to date people who aren't attractive to you.

 

But, as in my case, am I really going to care when I need to depend on someone if they like Circa Survive or not?

 

What about the douchebag with six-pack abs who hates your sister?

 

Or the knockout with a lucious ass who gets drunk and embarrasses you in public?

 

It's shallow to overlook those things because of someone's looks.

[therhythm]

I don't think anyone is saying to date people who aren't attractive to you.

 

But, as in my case, am I really going to care when I need to depend on someone if they like Circa Survive or not?

 

What about the douchebag with six-pack abs who hates your sister?

 

Or the knockout with a lucious ass who gets drunk and embarrasses you in public?

 

It's shallow to overlook those things because of someone's looks.

 

That all depends what are your expectations with that person... If I was looking for a LTR then I would want to have a+b (looks + personality) I don't feel I need to choose between one of the both, you can get them both.. Is like asking who do you love more papa or mama... childish.

 

If I am just casually dating... as long as she is hot I don't care for anything else.

[MrCastle]

Well if caring about the looks of the person you want to have a relationship with is shallow then I am shallow and I have no problem recognizing it. I am a very visual person and I would never date a woman who is not attractive and I don't care how intelligent, sweet or good person she may be... I am not going to date her if she is not physically attractive for me.

I also care about personality but that comes after she is physically attractive...

 

No one here is advocating to date someone you don't find physically attractive.

 

And Seussgirl just brought up another great point.

 

This whole time I'm thinking of rejecting people who have great personalities because they are not a certain height or boob size etc, but what about people with terrible personalities that people stick with just for looks?

 

I'm glad to have reached a point in my life where a woman's looks play no bearing on my opinion of her. If she is an airhead, or shallow, or bitchy, etc, I wil not date her. I have rejected objectively beautiful women before and will do it again. So long as their personality sucks, I won't date them.

[kaylan]

Basically, a lot of people call anything physical preferences shallow. Some people cannot handle that looks matter to most people, including them. They just yell shallow usually when its them being crossed off someones list as a dating prospect.

 

Im no ebony Adonis, but I know what I like in a woman. And Ill gladly hold the shallow title if someone wants to throw it at me. Haters gonna hate.

[tbf]

An analogy would be the line drawn between having a personality disorder and still within the realms of normal. It's about magnitude, where someone with a personality disorder is displaying normal behaviours but of the magnitude that impacts in the extreme negative, of their lives and others.

 

The same would apply for someone being shallow. While appearance matters and factors into the majority of people's concept of attractive where most have a break point, if someone overwhelmingly focuses on physicality where other traits have little weighting, they're shallow.

[therhythm]

An analogy would be the line drawn between having a personality disorder and still within the realms of normal. It's about magnitude, where someone with a personality disorder is displaying normal behaviours but of the magnitude that impacts in the extreme negative, of their lives and others.

 

The same would apply for someone being shallow. While appearance matters and factors into the majority of people's concept of attractive where most have a break point, if someone overwhelmingly focuses on physicality where other traits have little weighting, they're shallow.

 

Ok and who define that limit... how much the percentage needs to be?

 

So now there is a correct and a wrong in personal tastes?

 

If you are attracted to physical traits you need to just disregard that attraction and go for someone you are much less attracted so other people don't find you shallow?

[Drseussgrrl]

Ok and who define that limit... how much the percentage needs to be?

 

So now there is a correct and a wrong in personal tastes?

 

If you are attracted to physical traits you need to just disregard that attraction and go for someone you are much less attracted so other people don't find you shallow?

 

You're shallow when someone's physical attributes are front and center when deciding whether or not to date someone, disregarding other aspects of that person that would make them a poor choice of a partner.

[dasein]

People who agree with me are insightful, and those who don't are shallow.

 

Seriously, I don't much like the term "shallow," IMO there are better, more precise words. "Superficial," "materialistic," "trifling," "vapid," etc., that all have slightly different nuanced meanings, and can be more easily defined and understood are better than "shallow."

 

Someone who craves luxury and comfort from things, for example, might be definitively "materialistic," but need not be also "vapid." Someone who buys $80 tequila because they want to impress rather than because it's good, might be "superficial," but not "trifling." "Someone who focuses on minutiae as opposed to the bigger picture may be "trifling," but need not also be "superficial."

 

"Shallow" seems to be an oversimplification of a person as a whole, a broad generalizing term, where more specific terms that describe specific behaviors, when taken together, create a more realistic, accurate picture of the person as a whole.

[kaylan]

You're shallow when someone's physical attributes are front and center when deciding whether or not to date someone, disregarding other aspects of that person that would make them a poor choice of a partner.

^So if I choose not to date a fat girl because Im not attracted to her, Im shallow? I mean my decision would primarily be based on that if her personality was good.

 

Based on what you said, everyones shallow really.

[tbf]

Ok and who define that limit... how much the percentage needs to be?

This would be the woman's limit, based on how superficial her concept of attractiveness and how much superficiality she's willing to put up with.

 

So now there is a correct and a wrong in personal tastes?

Refer to above.

 

If you are attracted to physical traits you need to just disregard that attraction and go for someone you are much less attracted so other people don't find you shallow?

If you're superficial, own it. No one owes you a positive opinion or positive results.

[therhythm]

This would be the woman's limit, based on how superficial her concept of attractiveness and how much superficiality she's willing to put up with.

 

Refer to above.

 

If you're superficial, own it. No one owes you a positive opinion or positive results.

 

Ohh I do own it.... I am superficial... all the way! I care about physical appearance... it is the first think I look into a woman. I can value other characteristics but without the first parameter of being a beautiful woman I am not interested at all.

 

I find just funny how shallow it is to judge someone on how shallow he/she is :lmao:

[Drseussgrrl]

^So if I choose not to date a fat girl because Im not attracted to her, Im shallow? I mean my decision would primarily be based on that if her personality was good.

 

Based on what you said, everyones shallow really.

 

It's already been said many times on this thread that nobody is suggesting you date people you don't find attractive.

[KungFuJoe]

I'm with therythm. If she's not very attractive, sorry...I don't care how great your personality is...we can be friends, but I'm not going to date you.

 

I think it's MORE shallow to date someone who isn't your ideal type...you're just wasting your and the other person's time by doing so.

[Dread Pirate Roberts]

This is a topic that often comes up in other threads and threatens to derail it. I figured we could use a thread to discuss it so it won't be considered off topic.

 

Where do you stand on the shallow argument? What do you consider shallow? Do you even believe in the notion of some people being shallow?

 

It seems there are two schools of thought. Those that believe there are shallow people. And those that feel it's just about personal preference, and those citing "shallowness" are just bitter people trying to make that person feel bad.

 

Admittedly, I've only seen this argument play out online. In real life, it seems an overwhelming majority of people can get on board with the idea that people can be shallow. When someone says "He/she is so shallow," I've never heard someone chime in and say "Hey man, not cool. They're not shallow. They just have preferences."

 

Or is there a grey area in all of this?

 

I think shallowness is when you let one thing determine overall attraction without looking at anything else, and/or never bending on your preferences under any circumstances.

 

For example, if you are attracted to busty girls, and you run into a girl who you have chemistry with, and you love her personality, and you're attracted to other parts of her body, like her face, among other things, but her flat chest prevents you from going after her -- I think that's shallow.

 

If you have a rule where you won't date someone under or over x height, despite all other positive qualities they have, or how much chemistry you guys have together -- that's shallow.

 

On the other hand though, it feels like only some physical traits are considered shallow in looking for. If a woman rules a guy out because he's short, she's shallow. If a guy rules a girl out for not having curves, he's shallow. But if both of them rule someone out because the person's face is unattractive to them, that seems to be accepted. Who made the rules that some things are considered shallow and others aren't?

 

So for example, I don't care if a girl is taller or shorter than me. I don't care if she's a blonde, brunette, or redhead. I don't care if she has curves or not. I don't care if she's latina, white, black, asian, or whatever else. All I care about physically is she has a pretty face. Is that still considered shallow?

 

Face doesn't feel shallow to me just for the fact that there's variety. You can't measure it in numbers. Height and bust size, among other things -- are measured in numbers. It's not like some 5'10s are different than others. You're either 5'10 or you're not. If online you filter out anyone under 5'10, that's shallow. But there is no way to filter face. You can't say, filter out anyone who's nose isn't x length or width. Filter out those who don't have x color eyes. Attractive faces come in all different kinds of shapes and colors and features. I think if I was more specific with face, as in, I only find girls who have blue eyes and big pouty lips attractive, and I ruled everyone else out, that would be shallow. But when I say I need a pretty face, it presents itself in many different ways.

 

Anyway, back to the overall topic -- where do you stand on the shallow thing. Believe in it? And if so, under what grounds? Don't believe it in? Why?

 

People have preferences, but many of those physical preferences go out of the water if you meet someone you jive with. Be shallow all you want. Just remember, one day you might find someone you like that doesn't like you, because you don't live up to their physical standards.

[Dread Pirate Roberts]

Ohh I do own it.... I am superficial... all the way! I care about physical appearance... it is the first think I look into a woman. I can value other characteristics but without the first parameter of being a beautiful woman I am not interested at all.

 

I find just funny how shallow it is to judge someone on how shallow he/she is :lmao:

 

I don't find it funny at all. Your judging their judgement is null, if their judgement is funny to you.

 

Funny how that works?

[therhythm]

I don't find it funny at all. Your judging their judgement is null, if their judgement is funny to you.

 

Funny how that works?

 

Ohh please... you don't find it funny? You have broken my little heart.

 

I can't care less how people judge me.. they will do it anyway

[mesmerized]

LMAO at the rationalization to make yourself feel/sound like the good guy. Last time I checked, face is also a physical part and if you must know, majority of men care about a pretty face more than anything else. There is nothing special about mila kunis's body. She just got a pretty face. Just because you care about one's face the most doesn't mean you're not shallow, quite the opposite. Most people don't have a "killer face" you seem to be obsessed with.

 

I think at the end we all are shallow. Some more than others. I think being shallow about other things such as job, money etc can be just as bad but for whatever reason they are less frowned upon.

[Shepp]

everyone shallow - the people who claim that someone else is shallow, follows the crowd or whatever I would argue are the shallowest - there judging a whole group of people without really knowing them!

 

I know a lot of people signed me of as a dumb jock, probably still do, cause I'm happy-go-lucky, don't talk to seriously, and I guess im pretty...excitable - especially when I was younger I was always bouncing of the walls.

But if they did then they got me wrong - cause I was a straight A student - I just didn't enjoy, id rather spend my time in PE or DT - like I can fix or build most things and I find that more fulfilling than debating religion write ot wrong and if they thought sports were easy then they didn't account for the hours and hours I spent training.

 

you dont have to be angsty, cynical, and preoccupied with existential questions to be deep, its wrong to think anyone who is happy, care-free, and fun is shallow, in an "ignorance is bliss" kind of way.

 

I think everyones shallow and whats wrong with that - Some forms of supposed shallowness are part of that fun, silly side of being with people. It isn't better or worse than being reflective and serious, just different.

Like some people wanna watch a 3 hour deep drama and id rather watch an action shoot-em-up, so what? its not better or worse - just different!

 

Lots of people realize that some of the things they like are fluffy and trashy. But they're fun and maybe a bit of a guilty pleasure, so why not? People will listen to pop like 'call me maybe' because it's catchy and a laugh.

Some women completely realize they spend too much on make-up or shoes, but that's their thing and they feel it makes them look good. Along the same lines I work out a lot cause yeah I take pride in my appearance, I like to look good, I like being fit and good at sport but so what, that's where I get my kicks! Whys it anymore shallow than sitting in your room listening to angsty indie music or writing poetry.

 

Same with dating my 'type' when it comes to girls is quite specific, I acknowledge that but whats wrong with that - im not asking her not to be flawed im just stating the things im attracted to - its not like you'd expect a guy to be with someone he dosent find attractive so as to not look shallow!

[therhythm]

People have preferences, but many of those physical preferences go out of the water if you meet someone you jive with. Be shallow all you want. Just remember, one day you might find someone you like that doesn't like you, because you don't live up to their physical standards.

 

Actually I would be more than happy with that deal... I would not want to be with someone for whom I am not physically attractive either...

 

For me physical chemistry is the basic stone where I build the relationship from.... is it the only thing? Definitely not but yes the first thing I will judge a woman when choosing a partner.