The "Shallow" Debate

[MrCastle]

This is a topic that often comes up in other threads and threatens to derail it. I figured we could use a thread to discuss it so it won't be considered off topic.

 

Where do you stand on the shallow argument? What do you consider shallow? Do you even believe in the notion of some people being shallow?

 

It seems there are two schools of thought. Those that believe there are shallow people. And those that feel it's just about personal preference, and those citing "shallowness" are just bitter people trying to make that person feel bad.

 

Admittedly, I've only seen this argument play out online. In real life, it seems an overwhelming majority of people can get on board with the idea that people can be shallow. When someone says "He/she is so shallow," I've never heard someone chime in and say "Hey man, not cool. They're not shallow. They just have preferences."

 

Or is there a grey area in all of this?

 

I think shallowness is when you let one thing determine overall attraction without looking at anything else, and/or never bending on your preferences under any circumstances.

 

For example, if you are attracted to busty girls, and you run into a girl who you have chemistry with, and you love her personality, and you're attracted to other parts of her body, like her face, among other things, but her flat chest prevents you from going after her -- I think that's shallow.

 

If you have a rule where you won't date someone under or over x height, despite all other positive qualities they have, or how much chemistry you guys have together -- that's shallow.

 

On the other hand though, it feels like only some physical traits are considered shallow in looking for. If a woman rules a guy out because he's short, she's shallow. If a guy rules a girl out for not having curves, he's shallow. But if both of them rule someone out because the person's face is unattractive to them, that seems to be accepted. Who made the rules that some things are considered shallow and others aren't?

 

So for example, I don't care if a girl is taller or shorter than me. I don't care if she's a blonde, brunette, or redhead. I don't care if she has curves or not. I don't care if she's latina, white, black, asian, or whatever else. All I care about physically is she has a pretty face. Is that still considered shallow?

 

Face doesn't feel shallow to me just for the fact that there's variety. You can't measure it in numbers. Height and bust size, among other things -- are measured in numbers. It's not like some 5'10s are different than others. You're either 5'10 or you're not. If online you filter out anyone under 5'10, that's shallow. But there is no way to filter face. You can't say, filter out anyone who's nose isn't x length or width. Filter out those who don't have x color eyes. Attractive faces come in all different kinds of shapes and colors and features. I think if I was more specific with face, as in, I only find girls who have blue eyes and big pouty lips attractive, and I ruled everyone else out, that would be shallow. But when I say I need a pretty face, it presents itself in many different ways.

 

Anyway, back to the overall topic -- where do you stand on the shallow thing. Believe in it? And if so, under what grounds? Don't believe it in? Why?

[StayBeautiful]

I think most things you describe would be considered shallow if they were a requirement, not a preference.

 

I prefer above-average height men. I don't require it, as evidenced by my dating history.

[sillyanswer]

Where do you stand on the shallow argument?

 

I prefer to dive in at the deep end.

 

 

What do you consider shallow?

 

I think it's often things that someone else finds important that I think have no (or little) merit or significance. So, in a sense, it's sometimes as much a measure of my ignorance as it is genuine shallowness on the part of the other person. In a dating sense it's often just someone else's preferences, and a perception that they are "shallow" because they don't line up with the values of the observer.

[PJKino]

Im just bitter im not attractive enough to be able to be shallow myself lol,though even iam to a point, i still cant be with a women i have no physical attraction to at all which is why ill probably end up alone

[Taramere]

Anyway, back to the overall topic -- where do you stand on the shallow thing. Believe in it? And if so, under what grounds? Don't believe it in? Why?

 

I see a shallow person as somebody who's a follower. Who wears whatever's in fashion, listens to whatever music journalists recommend - and, in the realms of romance, picks prospective partners primarily on the basis of whether they think others will be impressed by them ("trophies") rather than because they have any strong connection with them. Generally if you sense a strong element of narcissism about somebody then I think you're probably going to find them quite shallow.

[fortyninethousand322]

I think shallowness kind of goes hand in hand with prejudice (not necessary racial prejudice though just to be clear).

 

If someone requires a partner who can talk about deep, intellectual subjects, that's not shallow. If they required that they have a college degree (i.e. the "piece of paper") regardless of whether or not they had the intelligence to go with it, that's shallow.

 

It's not shallow to want a partner who's physically fit. It would be shallow to pick on someone because they didn't have a body like Lou Ferrigno or the late Bruce Lee. Or things along those lines.

 

Or clothes. It's one thing to prefer a certain style. Another thing to prefer they spend a certain amount of money on particular brands. Not out of functionality or preferred quality, but just for the name recognition.

[KungFuJoe]

I've said this before...I don't think shallow exists in that you shouldn't be "shamed" for wanting what you want. Desire and attraction is unique to each person and it's not something you can readily control.

 

If a guy wants a dumb, big boobed bimbo...then so be it. Is it any more "respectable" to want someone who is smart vs looks?

 

Keep in mind that you don't "earn" your looks OR your smarts. They are both "god given" traits that you are born with.

[MrCastle]

I think most things you describe would be considered shallow if they were a requirement, not a preference.

 

I prefer above-average height men. I don't require it, as evidenced by my dating history.

 

That's been my stance all along and I touched on it in my OP.

 

We all have physical preferences based on a variety of reasons. But I think chemistry supercedes it. At some point, most people say, "you know what? So he/she doesn't have ____, but they make me happy and we connect."

 

It's a point shallow people never reach.

 

Of course, if given the opportunity, we'd all go for the tall hunky man and the model faced, perfect hour glass woman. But you can't spend your life chasing that physically perfect specimen while neglicting everyone else.

 

This does not mean date people you deem unattractive. But non shallow people have the ability to find physical attraction in different ways. They find different things attractive, physical and otherwise.

 

As I've said many times, I prefer a curvy brunette. But if a skinny blonde happens to cross my path, and we have chemistry, I will gladly date her and be attracted to her body. Variety is the spice of life to me. Even if it were in some way possible that I could date curvy brunettes, all the time, for life -- I wouldn't do it. I want to experience women of all shapes, sizes, hair colors, ethnicities, etc.

 

So long as physically, they have a face I'm attracted to, which again -- does that make me at least a little shallow? Or not? Again, my defense is that faces come in a wide variety and it's not as rigid as something like height or skin color, etc etc.

[MrCastle]

I've said this before...I don't think shallow exists in that you shouldn't be "shamed" for wanting what you want. Desire and attraction is unique to each person and it's not something you can readily control.

 

If a guy wants a dumb, big boobed bimbo...then so be it. Is it any more "respectable" to want someone who is smart vs looks?

 

Keep in mind that you don't "earn" your looks OR your smarts. They are both "god given" traits that you are born with.

 

This is obviously my opinion as one man, but I think the approach to dating should be "let's see what happens."

 

You live you life, date the people you have chemistry with, the right balance of looks and personality, and that's it.

 

If you leave your house with the mindset that you're looking for X and only X, and you don't budge on it ever -- you are alienating a large portion of potential mates.

[kiss_andmakeup]

It's something that's definitely really difficult to define - since I think everyone has the right to date people they're attracted to. For me, when the "shallow" flag pops up in my mind, is when someone makes judgmental statements about people who happen to fall outside of their preferences. I.E. the leap from "I am attracted to blonde women" to "women who aren't blonde are less desirable/lower quality/etc". While there's nothing inherently shallow about the former statement, the latter shows a certain prejudice that strikes me as shallow.

 

Of course, this topic is totally subjective. Hence the whole point of this thread!

[Eternal Sunshine]

Yes, you are shallow

[Gottabestrong]

Shallow to me means superficial. In dating that would translate to someone caring more about superficial qualities like how much money someone makes, how many friends they have, where they go on vacation, etc. than about the personality someone has.

 

I don't think it's shallow to only be attracted to a certain type of person, or not be attracted to someone because of a feature of theirs. That's just 'preference' or attraction. For example, I prefer guys with dark hair to those who are blonde. I don't think that makes me shallow. If I refused to talk to a person or become friends because of that, that would be shallow, or more like 'crazy'. But that I don't feel a desire to make out with them is perfectly fine.

 

I think it's actually good that people have a type of who they are attracted to, otherwise they might feel attracted to everyone they meet and be tempted to flirt or more. Makes it sound hard to be faithful to one person. Wait, is that how men feel most of the time?

[MrCastle]

It's something that's definitely really difficult to define - since I think everyone has the right to date people they're attracted to. For me, when the "shallow" flag pops up in my mind, is when someone makes judgmental statements about people who happen to fall outside of their preferences. I.E. the leap from "I am attracted to blonde women" to "women who aren't blonde are less desirable/lower quality/etc". While there's nothing inherently shallow about the former statement, the latter shows a certain prejudice that strikes me as shallow.

 

Of course, this topic is totally subjective. Hence the whole point of this thread!

 

That's a really good point too. Or they try to throw science into it. "It's in our nature to want ____"

 

As if they are taking no responsibility whatsoever for their preferences. At least own up to it.

[KungFuJoe]

This is obviously my opinion as one man, but I think the approach to dating should be "let's see what happens."

 

You live you life, date the people you have chemistry with, the right balance of looks and personality, and that's it.

 

If you leave your house with the mindset that you're looking for X and only X, and you don't budge on it ever -- you are alienating a large portion of potential mates.

 

But like I said...wants and desires are unique to each person. And each person has their "soft" rules and their "hard" rules.

 

A woman might SO desire a man with a six pack, that she refuses to date someone who doesn't have one. I have ZERO problem with this and I wish her nothing but the best of luck in finding what she wants...EVEN if she's fat and out of shape herself.

 

She might be VERY hard pressed to find someone, but it is what it is...I'm not going to call her shallow for trying to get what she wants.

[KungFuJoe]

In a "traditional" sense, shallow means caring more about looks than personality...because looks are on the "surface" (hence the shallowness) whereas personality is "deep" within.

 

Maybe the word we should be using is not "shallow" but "picky".

 

Some people are more picky than others. It's just part of your personality...just like someone might be more picky about food or beer than others.

 

If you're more picky, then you will find it harder to find an optimal partner. But, again, it's not something you can control and definitely not something to look down on.

[MrCastle]

But like I said...wants and desires are unique to each person. And each person has their "soft" rules and their "hard" rules.

 

A woman might SO desire a man with a six pack, that she refuses to date someone who doesn't have one. I have ZERO problem with this and I wish her nothing but the best of luck in finding what she wants...EVEN if she's fat and out of shape herself.

 

She might be VERY hard pressed to find someone, but it is what it is...I'm not going to call her shallow for trying to get what she wants.

 

It's interesting the responses in real life compared to an online forum. Maybe it's because here we break down every little thing and put it under a microscope for the sake of discussion but in real life, there is no shallow debate. At least in my experience.

 

When someone gets called shallow, it doesn't get challenged. Hell, some people I know willingly admit they are. "I like her, but she's too flat. I know that's messed up but that's how I feel." They admit their shallowness as opposed to going around in circular logic trying to explain why what they're doing is not a actually shallow.

[Drseussgrrl]

I've been attracted to all types of dudes. I've had white boyfriends, Latino boyfriends, very tall boyfriends, average height boyfriends, hairy chests, not-so-hairy chests, creative types, logical types...

 

But yeah I have my non-negotiables. I have to think he has a nice face. Ironically men have become more attractive to me as time went on. Intellect, the way he makes me feel when I'm around him, generosity, humor, and social interaction are all huge to me.

 

When I was younger, you could say I was more "shallow". For example if he wasn't into the same indie bands I was, I might hold that against him. Stupid stuff that has no bearing on what sort of life partner he'd make.

 

I grew out of that.

[MrCastle]

I've been attracted to all types of dudes. I've had white boyfriends, Latino boyfriends, very tall boyfriends, average height boyfriends, hairy chests, not-so-hairy chests, creative types, logical types...

 

But yeah I have my non-negotiables. I have to think he has a nice face. Ironically men have become more attractive to me as time went on. Intellect, the way he makes me feel when I'm around him, generosity, humor, and social interaction are all huge to me.

 

When I was younger, you could say I was more "shallow". For example if he wasn't into the same indie bands I was, I might hold that against him. Stupid stuff that has no bearing on what sort of life partner he'd make.

 

I grew out of that.

 

Another good point as well. I do think age/maturity have a lot to do with it as well, and something I think most of us are guilty of.

 

18 year old Castle had different priorities than 25 year old Castle.

 

Back then it was all boobs and butts for me. I'll admit it.

 

Having grown up, and seeing how hard it is to find a decent human being these days (at least by my standards) -- am I really gonna reject a girl for small boobs?

 

Not this guy

[Eternal Sunshine]

I admit that in early 20s, I was all about looks. Personality or intelligence were irrelevant. More specifically, not having a 6 pack was a deal breaker

[EasyHeart]

I think the real issue is people wanting to change other people.

 

If you really think someone is shallow, you think, "Wow, that person is shallow and boring" and then you move on with your life. When people complain about other people being shallow, they're really saying, "I am attracted to that person and want them to stop being themselves and transform into the fantasy person I've built up in my mind". And that fantasy person, of course, is madly in love with the first person.

 

I think half the problems on this board would go away if people just accepted that they can't control other people.

[Content]

I think each person has the right to be attracted to what they want it is not a conscious thing we're attracted to what were attracted to..dating someone youre not that into is not fair for yourself or the other person imo.

 

It's like telling somebody what they should like to eat,the only time i get annoyed is if the person with crazy standards and expectatiosn complains he or she cant find somebody when they eliminate 90% of the opposite sex already.

 

While i have preferences like i love big asses its not a dealbreaker by any stretch, the only dealbreakers physcially is if im not attracted at all to the face i know i will never be attracted to the women..

[Content]

I think the real issue is people wanting to change other people.

 

If you really think someone is shallow, you think, "Wow, that person is shallow and boring" and then you move on with your life. When people complain about other people being shallow, they're really saying, "I am attracted to that person and want them to stop being themselves and transform into the fantasy person I've built up in my mind". And that fantasy person, of course, is madly in love with the first person.

 

I think half the problems on this board would go away if people just accepted that they can't control other people.

 

I think shallow to alot of people who use it means a person im attracted to is not attracted back to me because of something i lack that there not attracted to on me physically.

 

I know that sucks but people should move on to somebody they are attracted to who also finds them attractive and not obsess over a person who doesnt want them.

[MrCastle]

While i have preferences like i love big asses its not a dealbreaker by any stretch[/Quote]

 

And that's what, to me, separates shallow people from others. As I said, we all have preferences. The difference is, shallow people never bend on them and those preferences become "standards" whereas other people make exceptions.

[PJKino]

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I know that sucks but people should move on to somebody they are attracted to who also finds them attractive and not obsess over a person who doesnt want them.

 

Problem is some of us arent attractive enough to attract somebody who were also attracted to...but i agree with you that you shouldnt date someone you're not attracted to just because its all you can get id rather be alone which i probably will be because of that reason..

[Drseussgrrl]

Yeah - but I know people who really ARE shallow.

 

One dude in my social circle is going to turn 40 this year and starting to freak out that he's still single.

 

But if you look at his dating history, it's full of young, immature women, single moms with drug problems, dingbats and gold-diggers (he's very wealthy).

 

The one thing they all had in common? Incredibly pretty with huge racks.

 

Sorry - but THAT is shallow.