My take on infidelity and leaving wife for OW.

[janedoe67]

I guess I really messed up with the quotes! Sorry! Mine is the last paragraph only on those two posts!

 

I'm glad I'm not the only one who does that lol

[Got it]

I see what you are saying and you make good points.

 

However to me-(my opinion) a person shouldn't expect their AP to be faithful to them if they couldn't or wouldn't remain faith to their spouse or partner.

 

To me it's like saying "I won't divorce you"- "But I will cheat on ya.

 

Or saying "I won't leave my partner but I will cheat on them"

 

Why? I think people expect all kinds of things. There is nothing that says one has to limit expectations. I don't think many follow such a causal thought process that they extrapolate how you were doing X, means you will do X when with me. I think most people evaluate someone based on the actions directed at them, not in observation how they were to another.

 

That is saying you are exactly the same way, in all behaviors, with everyone in your life. And that isn't true.

 

For myself, I cheated on my ex. I don't think I will ever cheat again. Why? Because I have run through the actions, the cause and affect, the consequences, and the coping mechanisms. I have a different dynamic with my husband. I have a different understanding of myself. I have looked at the steps on the slippery slope and halt the first wobble so I don't got down that road. So, yes, my husband should expect me not to cheat. Just like with my ex, both should expect me not to cheat. The expectation isn't the issue. The actions are.

[KathyM]

What's delusional is not realizing that there are all types of people in this world with all types of capabilities. I've seen people who were very happy with their marriages but had holes inside themselves somewhere and went on to cheat. And then some just want it all. A loving spouse at home and a playmate on the side. Don't fool yourself, it happens and more often than you think.

Definitely. My sister's ex husband was very much like this. He cheated on her in their second year of marriage. He was a very happy husband with a loving and beautiful wife, but unfortunately, he was also a very narcissistic, self centered man who had a sense of entitlement, and who put his desires ahead of anyone or anything else.

[findingnemo]

At the end of the day, it all depends on the kind of human being one is dealing with. I personally know a couple who anyone would call happy. They have a great home, nice well behaved and good looking kids, the W has a really good income...they are well-to-do. I know for a fact that the MM in question isn't leaving his W for anyone. And yet...he claims he is in an unhappy M.

 

He says she is bossy, she always gets her way, she makes all the decisions and she doesn't respect him. I countered (the one time I tried) by saying she is a leader, she works to get her way, she makes decisions because she is paying for the big things and because he is never there anyway and yes, she may not respect his ability to make money but she respects him as a husband and father of her children. She firmly believes he is being selfish and that their M is happy.

 

Who is right? Is this M happy or unhappy?

[waterwoman]

I think the reason it's so hard to accept that a struggling marriage is the reason for an affair is that it suggests fault lies with the BS - 'he/she wouldn't have cheated if you hadn't done this/been more like that' etc. The assumption being that the one who strayed was the one who was innocent of blame for the failure of the marriage. And that is a hard pill to swallow on top of being betrayed. Massive unswallowable insult added to painful injury. Cheating because of a bad marriage suggests that was the only recourse a poor suffering WS had to ease the agony of his miserable life wedded to such a harpy. And of course that is rarely the case. I can honestly say, hand-on-heart, that I was doing my best in our marriage. And I can honestly say that IMO H was NOT. He was lazy, irresponsible, selfish and irritable. I became the stop gap for his failings. And then depression got the better of me - I have been a chronic depressive for years but it flared up about 2 years ago and H's response was to have an A. That winter after I reach suicide point I dragged myself out of the mud, I began to run again, I changed my diet, I stopped drinking, I went back on my meds....I fought tooth and nail to get back on an even keel, totally without H's support as he was 'elsewhere' emotionally. The truth is the marriage was bad because of H's FOO issues as well as my acceptance of all his crap and inability to tackle it and my depression which I won't take blame for.

 

Marriage was bad, yes. I was not a bad spouse. If anyone was it was H. Even he admits it and refuses to blame me in anyway. He had the affair. Go figure....

 

OW/OM seem to like to imply sometimes that their MP can be absolved of blame because of the 'crimes' of their spouse. I think that is disingenuous to say the least.

[Anna-Belle]

Definitely. My sister's ex husband was very much like this. He cheated on her in their second year of marriage. He was a very happy husband with a loving and beautiful wife, but unfortunately, he was also a very narcissistic, self centered man who had a sense of entitlement, and who put his desires ahead of anyone or anything else.

 

I can't see how a marriage where one of the parties is a very narcissistic, self-centered person with a sense of entitlement can ever be happy - affair or no affair.

[Got it]

I think the reason it's so hard to accept that a struggling marriage is the reason for an affair is that it suggests fault lies with the BS - 'he/she wouldn't have cheated if you hadn't done this/been more like that' etc. The assumption being that the one who strayed was the one who was innocent of blame for the failure of the marriage. And that is a hard pill to swallow on top of being betrayed. Massive unswallowable insult added to painful injury. Cheating because of a bad marriage suggests that was the only recourse a poor suffering WS had to ease the agony of his miserable life wedded to such a harpy. And of course that is rarely the case. I can honestly say, hand-on-heart, that I was doing my best in our marriage. And I can honestly say that IMO H was NOT. He was lazy, irresponsible, selfish and irritable. I became the stop gap for his failings. And then depression got the better of me - I have been a chronic depressive for years but it flared up about 2 years ago and H's response was to have an A. That winter after I reach suicide point I dragged myself out of the mud, I began to run again, I changed my diet, I stopped drinking, I went back on my meds....I fought tooth and nail to get back on an even keel, totally without H's support as he was 'elsewhere' emotionally. The truth is the marriage was bad because of H's FOO issues as well as my acceptance of all his crap and inability to tackle it and my depression which I won't take blame for.

 

Marriage was bad, yes. I was not a bad spouse. If anyone was it was H. Even he admits it and refuses to blame me in anyway. He had the affair. Go figure....

 

OW/OM seem to like to imply sometimes that their MP can be absolved of blame because of the 'crimes' of their spouse. I think that is disingenuous to say the least.

 

I am not sure if I agree with the bolded. One can state they are in a bad marriage. That may mean that both parties are at fault, that can mean that one party is at fault. The one claiming the unhappy marriage can be the one at fault. The statement is a big picture assessment of the union but should not and on the face does not necessarily imply who is at fault. That statement should be followed up with a why.

 

I guess to me people talking about their marriage is not too terribly different than them talking about their other relationships. Many will wax on and on about how bad their brother/sister/mother/dad/friend/etc is. While I may initially give a general amount of sympathy if one is complaining/lamenting, because I was raised and had relationships with those that have victim mentalities, I get very twitchy on complaining and will deep dive to quickly see a trend and the common denominator. For me, at that point I pretty much quickly minimize their stance.

 

For myself, that was a red flag I was on the look out for in my affair, did he tear down his wife. Stating facts is one thing as well as offering an equal distribution of blame. But if he showed an overwhelming bias to a victim stance I would have taken note quickly.

 

I find continuing complaining to be a fruitless endeavor. If you don't like the situation change it. Put up or shut up.

 

And there have been times in the affair and afterward where xMM/husband and I have defended each other's spouses because we didn't agree with our logic and stance.

[HappyAtLast]

Congratulations on 40 years of happy marriage. I'm sure that's no easy feat to accomplish.

 

To reword what I was saying, your first post in this thread made it sound as if a person cheats BECAUSE of the person they are with. Your first wife didn't make you cheat. Your current wife didn't make you NOT cheat. You made those choices, its what inside of you that caused you to cheat in the first place, and then later not to cheat. The rude awakening would be realizing that others are not responsible for YOUR choices.

 

OK, yes, that makes sense now and I agree with you. I have and always will 100% own the choice of stepping outside of my marriage, regardless of what my ex-wife did or did not do. The choice to cheat lies squarely with me, I have always maintained that.

 

That said, and what I am about to say only applies for me, I cannot speak for anyone else or their situation. The way that I feel about my current wife absolutely DID prohibit me from ever stepping out on her. I was a surgeon, temptation was EVERYWHERE. Yet, all I had to do was think about her and know that I would never be willing to risk hurting her or risking what we have together to act on any such temptation.

[waterwoman]

I am not sure if I agree with the bolded. One can state they are in a bad marriage. That may mean that both parties are at fault, that can mean that one party is at fault. The one claiming the unhappy marriage can be the one at fault. The statement is a big picture assessment of the union but should not and on the face does not necessarily imply who is at fault. That statement should be followed up with a why.

 

Quite. You would think so wouldn't you? But as I said "OW/OM seem to like to imply sometimes that their MP can be absolved of blame because of the 'crimes' of their spouse". I have seen it time and time again on the OW/OM forum.

[janedoe67]

 

Stating the FACT that my marriage was terrible and that my husband, DID, in fact, have a part in that is NOT the same thing as saying he was responsible for my choice to cheat. That choice is on me.

 

I don't get what is so hard about comprehending that distinction.

 

Denial of my responsibility for my affair would make recovery impossible.

 

Denial of responsibility of one's part in creating a bad marriage makes a good marriage impossible. Of course, maybe having a good marriage is not the goal. Maybe the agenda is different. In the cases where someone's choice to cheat results in divorce it is a moot point. In the cases where they stay together perhaps the BS who chooses not to comprehend the distinction is more interested in keeping the focus on the affair indefinitely than creating a good marriage together.

[KathyM]

I can't see how a marriage where one of the parties is a very narcissistic, self-centered person with a sense of entitlement can ever be happy - affair or no affair.

Let's put it this way. The marriage was happy for HIM. He had a nice, beautiful, devoted wife at home to take care of him and his kids. He had everything he wanted, but that was never enough for him. He felt entitled to screw other women if he so desired. She forgave him after the first affair, because he seemed genuinely remorseful, and he did make an attempt after that to be faithful, but the combination of the affair and his narcissism eventually took its toll on the marriage, and he eventually cheated again. The first time around, however, with the first affair, it was at a time when they (husband and wife) were barely out of the newlywed stage, and he claimed to love her and they were happy. He just felt entitled to have an affair because he was a narcissist with a sense of entitlement.

 

Narcissists tend to fool a person for awhile, portraying positive qualities that can attract a woman (charm, good looks, success, creativity, passion, romance, etc.) Sometimes it takes awhile for the narcissist's true colors to be evident, and when a woman can only see the man through rose colored glasses, the negative traits can temporarily get lost in the view through those rose colored glasses. My parents could see he had those narcissistic traits from before they were married, but my sister could not at that time.

[HopingAgain]

 

Stating the FACT that my marriage was terrible and that my husband, DID, in fact, have a part in that is NOT the same thing as saying he was responsible for my choice to cheat. That choice is on me.

 

I don't get what is so hard about comprehending that distinction.

 

Denial of my responsibility for my affair would make recovery impossible.

 

Denial of responsibility of one's part in creating a bad marriage makes a good marriage impossible. Of course, maybe having a good marriage is not the goal. Maybe the agenda is different. In the cases where someone's choice to cheat results in divorce it is a moot point. In the cases where they stay together perhaps the BS who chooses not to comprehend the distinction is more interested in keeping the focus on the affair indefinitely than creating a good marriage together.[/quote

 

Agreed. The responsibility for cheating lies with the WS. The responsibility for the state of the marriage lies with the WS AND BS. I'm not sure if you felt I was implying otherwise since you referenced my quote. My thoughts were strictly referring to ownership for the cheating itself, not a WS assuming sole responsibility for the state of the marriage in its entiretyn

[thecharade]

What about the selfish spouse? What if someone cheats on (due to fear of divorcing) a selfish spouse?

 

Who needs to do "the work" to reconcile the marriage?

[janedoe67]

It is my opinion that once someone has cheated, then they are responsible for owning that choice as 100% theirs and doing the work to repair the damamge from THEIR choice. No matter how selfish my spouse is, I do NOT have to choose to cheat. My spouse's flaws do not hold a gun to my head and make me commit adultery.

 

What someone who cheats on a selfish spouse rather than divorce them does is try to have the benefits of the security the marriage provides while secretly betraying their vows. It is a coward's way of dealing with marital problems.

 

I say this as someone who was very unhappy for several reasons and chose to cheat. My unhappiness was real. It wasn't a valid reason to cheat. I cheated because I chose to, not because my unhappiness "made" me.

 

So...the amends is made for the cheating by the cheater, and then the marital problems are addressed.

[Journee]

I'm trying to figure out, if this is how most feel, why does ANYONE stay with someone who cheats? If there is no forgiveness, no redemption, what's the point? Clearly each person who ever cheated at anything ever should be tarred, feathered, drawn and quartered.

 

 

H and I have been best friends since we were teens and then lovers and partners. We have had to do a lot of growing up because we spent our late teens and nearly all of our twenties involved. There have been hiccups and plenty of growing pains. Ya know ,I can't explain why but there most definitely has to be forgiveness for us. With out that there will be resentment and that leads to plenty of destruction. For us this is a growing pain. Spoiled children learning tough lessons. It does not define him or I. I am certainly not going to keep score or lists of his crimes. I don't want to punish him for his transgressions. I don't want to be punished for mine. Neither of us signed up for that. Not all reconciliations involve thrashings.

[cocorico]

My belief is that happily married men do not cheat, and that semi-happily MM may cheat, but probably won't leave their wives for the OW, because things are OK at home; not perfect, but not horrible. Lastly, I believe that unhappily MM probably would leave their wives for OW. Of course, there are variables, such as whether young children are involved. Also, I read that if a MM does leave his wife, he usually does so within six months of meeting the OW. Do you folks agree with this and what I have written above? I am no marriage expert, so I welcome other opinions.

 

My H left his W. it was about three - three and a half years into the A.

[Got it]

My H left his W. it was about three - three and a half years into the A.

 

Yeah, 6 months is a very short amount of time. I always heard the "golden" time period was 1 year.

 

We were at a year but I know I know others who were years in. There is no magic formula or predictor. As with many things with human nature, it all depends.

[So happy together]

Yeah, 6 months is a very short amount of time. I always heard the "golden" time period was 1 year.

 

We were at a year but I know I know others who were years in. There is no magic formula or predictor. As with many things with human nature, it all depends.

 

Mine was a year also. But, I do know others who have been years in as well. Three, five, seven or eight even. I think it depends partly on the state of the marriage and what the WS is willing to deal with. Sometimes it takes a while for the WS to have the guts to go. Camilla Parker Bowles waited AGES.

 

We've all discussed the plethora of reasons WS's stay, so I believe that lots of times, once the road block is removed, they feel open to leave the marriage.

 

My bf stayed a little longer than he wanted to simply to get money issues in place. Sometimes people stay until they feel they are financially able, some stay until their kids are older, until the BS has the ability to care for themselves financially, emotionally. Sometimes things just are not bad enough to go... so many factors. Not to mention just the simple fear of change.

[Betterthanthis13]

What about the selfish spouse? What if someone cheats on (due to fear of divorcing) a selfish spouse?

 

Who needs to do "the work" to reconcile the marriage?

 

Lets look at this.

 

Alex is married to Pat. Pat is selfish and mean and threatening divorce. Alex is afraid of divorcing. What should Alex do?

 

1. Work on marriage problems with Pat. Maybe they work it out, maybe they get a divorce.

2. Do nothing. Stay in bad marriage forever or until Pat divorces him

3. Cheat on Pat with Sam

 

What do you think?

[thecharade]

I think people give very simple answers to very complicated emotional and psychological issues which could never be fully outlined here, and that's fine because everyone is entitled to their own opinion. But in actuality, infidelity sometimes (not always) goes like this:

 

Marriage has weakness.

 

One spouse is unhappy, but the other sees no problem.

 

Unhappy spouse tries talking, getting help, finding support. Nobody wants to "get involved."

 

Spouse says they'll work on it, but nothing changes.

 

Time goes on. Loneliness ensues. Distance builds.

 

Kids are young, happy, so disillusioned spouse keeps fighting the fight.

 

Until a light of happiness shines: attention, interest, relief.

 

And an A begins.

 

Maybe the "happy" spouse should have cared about the feelings of the unhappy spouse. The A was the result of a long ignored problem. Would a D have been better? Really? According to whom?

 

Most important question: would you rather someone cheat on you or divorce you to get your attention???? I know my husband's answer, and it's not divorce.

[Betterthanthis13]

I think people give very simple answers to very complicated emotional and psychological issues which could never be fully outlined here, and that's fine because everyone is entitled to their own opinion. But in actuality, infidelity sometimes (not always) goes like this:

 

Marriage has weakness.

 

One spouse is unhappy, but the other sees no problem.

 

Unhappy spouse tries talking, getting help, finding support. Nobody wants to "get involved."

 

Spouse says they'll work on it, but nothing changes.

 

Time goes on. Loneliness ensues. Distance builds.

 

Kids are young, happy, so disillusioned spouse keeps fighting the fight.

 

Until a light of happiness shines: attention, interest, relief.

 

And an A begins.

 

Maybe the "happy" spouse should have cared about the feelings of the unhappy spouse. The A was the result of a long ignored problem. Would a D have been better? Really? According to whom?

 

Most important question: would you rather someone cheat on you or divorce you to get your attention???? I know my husband's answer, and it's not divorce.

 

I'd prefer they tell me they were so unhappy with me that they were at the point of getting their needs met elsewhere, before they lied to me about it for months or years. That would seem pretty fair if I was really that ignorant of the problems in my marriage. That would get my attention, especially the first time you said, "ok honey, I'm leaving for my date now. I will either be home around midnight, or in the morning to get the kids up for school" and left.

 

Problem solved- you get attention, you aren't a cheater, spouse can't play ostrich an pretend there is no problem, and you don't have to divorce. Spouse can have plenty of time to think about losing you and extract their head from their ass while you are out.

 

I'm not trying to be a jerk posing simple solutions to complicated problems. Just pointing out that an affair is not the logical choice in this situation, because now the very person who wanted to work things out in the first place is cast in the role of villain cheater.

[Betterthanthis13]

To WS's that say their BS is the bad guy and caused them to cheat:

 

Ok, so your spouse is mean/unaffectionate/won't listen to you/whatever and all you are starved for attention and love? You want a relationship with honest communication and aren't getting it from your spouse?

 

Great! Have one. No, not an affair with that new person. Be honest. Tell your spouse you will be dating others, and just go do it. What could possibly happen? They get mad at you?

So what? you are mad at them for ignoring you and being mean. At least now they aren't ignoring you.

They divorce you for it? Ok. You were miserable anyway and going to cheat. So what's the problem?

They don't care if you date others and still want to remain married?

Awesome. Problem solved, go be with your new person.

 

No, it's not fair you are in this position. Life isn't fair. But it is your choice and your decision if you want to be a cheater on top of having a failing marriage. Choose wisely. Think of how great it will feel explaining the affair to your kids later.

[Furious]

I think people give very simple answers to very complicated emotional and psychological issues which could never be fully outlined here, and that's fine because everyone is entitled to their own opinion. But in actuality, infidelity sometimes (not always) goes like this:

 

Marriage has weakness.

 

One spouse is unhappy, but the other sees no problem.

 

Unhappy spouse tries talking, getting help, finding support. Nobody wants to "get involved."

 

Spouse says they'll work on it, but nothing changes.

 

Time goes on. Loneliness ensues. Distance builds.

 

Kids are young, happy, so disillusioned spouse keeps fighting the fight.

 

Until a light of happiness shines: attention, interest, relief.

 

And an A begins.

 

Maybe the "happy" spouse should have cared about the feelings of the unhappy spouse. The A was the result of a long ignored problem. Would a D have been better? Really? According to whom?

 

Most important question: would you rather someone cheat on you or divorce you to get your attention???? I know my husband's answer, and it's not divorce.

 

 

I would rather he divorced me rather than cheating on me and denying my right to my own reality, choices and the right to protect my health.

 

I think being told by your spouse they want a divorce would get their "attention" as opposed to conducting an affair which in nearly all cases are conducted secretly which defeats the purpose of getting their spouses "attention".

 

All marriages experience highs and lows and there's not a single betrayed spouse who at one time or another felt neglected or unappreciated and could have cheated but they didn't.

 

Happy or unhappy it call comes down to character.

[sweet_pea]

I think people give very simple answers to very complicated emotional and psychological issues which could never be fully outlined here, and that's fine because everyone is entitled to their own opinion. But in actuality, infidelity sometimes (not always) goes like this:

 

Marriage has weakness.

 

One spouse is unhappy, but the other sees no problem.

 

Unhappy spouse tries talking, getting help, finding support. Nobody wants to "get involved."

 

Spouse says they'll work on it, but nothing changes.

 

Time goes on. Loneliness ensues. Distance builds.

 

Kids are young, happy, so disillusioned spouse keeps fighting the fight.

 

Until a light of happiness shines: attention, interest, relief.

 

And an A begins.

 

Maybe the "happy" spouse should have cared about the feelings of the unhappy spouse. The A was the result of a long ignored problem. Would a D have been better? Really? According to whom?

 

Most important question: would you rather someone cheat on you or divorce you to get your attention???? I know my husband's answer, and it's not divorce.

 

Uh yes, I would rather my husband tell me he wanted a divorce because of x, y, and z rather than to be cheated on. That would surely be a wake up call, and make me want to change my ways.

 

I don't know anyone who would rather be cheated on and lied/decieved to, and face complete and utter devastation that affairs can bring. This is the first time I've read about it.

[Betrayed&Stayed]

Most important question: would you rather someone cheat on you or divorce you to get your attention???? I know my husband's answer, and it's not divorce.

 

So does this mean that you told your husband about your past affair?