Having a remorseful OW/OM vs. Non remorseful OW/OM

July 6, 2013

I was reading a thread over in the OW section that made me really think about how much having a remorseful AP really helps the healing process. I know in my case, I once experienced a situation with a relationship where the OW didn't know about me, and once I contacted her and asked her questions, she apologized profusely and genuinely felt bad. Never heard from her again, and I was able to heal fairly quickly in that incident.

Now, fast forward to the OW in my marriage from the affair I am currently healing from. Not only did she know about me, she knew we had twin toddlers, actively tried to help my husband deceive me by playing along with his game, and after the affair was outed on Dday, she tried to continue contact with him even after he started to ignore her and went into NC. When I did call her to try to talk to her, she told me I had a "wrong number" and hung up. I finally left her a message and shortly after her phone was disconnected.

Needless to say, she had zero remorse, and this factor has made it somewhat harder to heal. To know someone is purposely out there rubbing our nose in the dirt is painful, even if you don't know that person. I did nothing to her to run a train over her life, like she attempted to do to mine. Before anyone thinks that I am putting undue blame on her and not WH...far from it. He continues to realize thre impact of his actions daily, and I make sure he shoulders the responsibility for his part in all of this.

Anyway, didn't mean to start rambling, but I guess my question is, for those of you who had remorseful OW/OM, did you find that it helped you in your healing process? Or were you completely indifferent to how they felt/what they did? For those of you who had unremorseful, maybe even vindictive OM/OM, has it made healing a lot more difficult for you, or do you just ignore them?

July 6, 2013

I was reading a thread over in the OW section that made me really think about how much having a remorseful AP really helps the healing process. I know in my case, I once experienced a situation with a relationship where the OW didn't know about me, and once I contacted her and asked her questions, she apologized profusely and genuinely felt bad. Never heard from her again, and I was able to heal fairly quickly in that incident.

Now, fast forward to the OW in my marriage from the affair I am currently healing from. Not only did she know about me, she knew we had twin toddlers, actively tried to help my husband deceive me by playing along with his game, and after the affair was outed on Dday, she tried to continue contact with him even after he started to ignore her and went into NC. When I did call her to try to talk to her, she told me I had a "wrong number" and hung up. I finally left her a message and shortly after her phone was disconnected.

Needless to say, she had zero remorse, and this factor has made it somewhat harder to heal. To know someone is purposely out there rubbing our nose in the dirt is painful, even if you don't know that person. I did nothing to her to run a train over her life, like she attempted to do to mine. Before anyone thinks that I am putting undue blame on her and not WH...far from it. He continues to realize thre impact of his actions daily, and I make sure he shoulders the responsibility for his part in all of this.

Anyway, didn't mean to start rambling, but I guess my question is, for those of you who had remorseful OW/OM, did you find that it helped you in your healing process? Or were you completely indifferent to how they felt/what they did? For those of you who had unremorseful, maybe even vindictive OM/OM, has it made healing a lot more difficult for you, or do you just ignore them?

Hoping,

So sorry you are here and dealing with this.

I had an unremorseful ow...she knew about me the entire time and also tried to continue contact with my h after dday...she called and texted hundreds of times, saying how much she loved him and more...he changed his phone number shortly after dday because she wouldnt stop. She said horrible things to me also. She then started calling me when my h didnt contact her.

In my decision to r with my husband, her crazy actually helped, because he let me see all her messages and hear the vm, which contradicted the lies she was telling me. Her brand of crazy actually helped me see her as the broken person she is. but i will say had she been apologetic initially, had she not known about me, then I would not have had to deal with her crazy at all, which I would have preferred.

But what it all came down to for me was my husband...what were his actions? It would have made me see him in a worse light if I had discovered he had lied to her about being married. Instead, he had an all to willing accomplice. She made it easier for him to cheat. He only had me to lie to. Still ugly, I know.

How has your husband responded? What are his actions? This should be your focus, dont worry about the ow, she is dealing with her own pain from her actions.

July 6, 2013

Wow, interesting question-

I was interested in remorse/ empathy levels of the WS for the BS in different situations for the past few days. I think I have come to the conclusion (my opinion only) that it is VERY RARE that the WS has any true understanding or empathy for the magnitude of the BS pain. If he or she did, they wouldn't have had the affair in the first place. But I guess some people can learn from their actions after the fact. Maybe.

In my situation there is zero chance any of the AP's had any empathy for me. No wait- that's not true. I encountered one who claimed not to know he had a girlfriend. It was a long time ago so the memory is not really very clear. She was unapologetic, just said, Oh, he lied to me...

That was when I figured out what was going on and I dumped him- I heard that girl tried to date him for about a month, I believe they had sex twice. From the texts I've seen that's the most accurate picture I can paint. But he's a sex addict and skilled liar so. Who knows.

I'm making do with empathy for myself, and long rambling postings on loveshack, reading tons of books and articles and blogs, and therapy.

But I am interested in hearing the responses to this question from people who have been in this situation!

July 6, 2013

Hoping,

So sorry you are here and dealing with this.

I had an unremorseful ow...she knew about me the entire time and also tried to continue contact with my h after dday...she called and texted hundreds of times, saying how much she loved him and more...he changed his phone number shortly after dday because she wouldnt stop. She said horrible things to me also. She then started calling me when my h didnt contact her.

In my decision to r with my husband, her crazy actually helped, because he let me see all her messages and hear the vm, which contradicted the lies she was telling me. Her brand of crazy actually helped me see her as the broken person she is. but i will say had she been apologetic initially, had she not known about me, then I would not have had to deal with her crazy at all, which I would have preferred.

But what it all came down to for me was my husband...what were his actions? It would have made me see him in a worse light if I had discovered he had lied to her about being married. Instead, he had an all to willing accomplice. She made it easier for him to cheat. He only had me to lie to. Still ugly, I know.

How has your husband responded? What are his actions? This should be your focus, dont worry about the ow, she is dealing with her own pain from her actions.

Thanks, Krazikat. It sure sounds like you went through the ringer with OWs actions after Dday as well, and I am sorry to hear that too. Seems you and your H handled it well though.

My focus has been on husband from day 1, but plenty of anger has been directed towards OW as well just because of what I perceived to be the callousness of her actions. That was a minor annoyance though compared to what I felt about WHs actions.

Since our therapy, which began about 6 weeks after Dday, WH has done a lot to show support and understanding of my feelings. Just last night he was triggered by hearing about a family members affair, and started talking about how badly he felt "for what he had done to me." It took me off guard because he rarely mentions the affair without me bringing it up first, so I realized that he's still grappling with his conscience and the unsolicited show of remorse touched me. I think that reading through some posts and seeing an OW express a similar type of remorse just really made me think about the impact of those who do versus those who don't. Its not something I plan to dwell on though as I'm focused on healing myself and doing my part to help heal our marriage.

July 6, 2013

Wow, interesting question-

I think I have come to the conclusion (my opinion only) that it is VERY RARE that the WS has any true understanding or empathy for the magnitude of the BS pain. If he or she did, they wouldn't have had the affair in the first place. But I guess some people can learn from their actions after the fact. Maybe.

Oh how I can identify with THIS!

My H really had and probably still has no freaking clue how his affair with an old high school friend for 2 years affected me. Even watching me go through a near mental breakdown where I should of been hospitalized - he has no clue. Or at least, he's not admitting to understanding it.

DDay completely pulled the rug out from under me. I was in calm silent shock until a week later until my mind went *bye bye*. He even had the NERVE to yell at me and tell me "You're not interested in fixing us!!!" Fine. He promised NC with her and broke it 5 times. Being on hypervigilance, I found each one. He lied to me each and every time. Yelled at me - "If you can't believe me then that's YOUR PROBLEM". All the time, engaging in EA with his AP. And after each discovery I got worse and worse. To the point one night I got rip roaring drunk and decided that I could slip quietly into the river, drown, and I wouldn't feel a thing. Fortunately, thoughts of my child - my adult child living on her own - pulled me out of it. NOT HIM. My child. Couldn't do that to her. And you know what? He was hurt that my decision not to end myself wasn't over him! Are you kidding me? Six months of total disrespect, gaslighting, mental abuse after DDay and he's HURT?????

I could of gotten better over those 6 months if he had kept his word. But she would BOO HOO or BARK and he would let himself get sucked right back in. I know he wasn't sleeping with her after DDay, but he sure was engaging her emotionally. And for stupid reasons I listed on another thread. "I don't know...She was once a good friend...I was afraid she would kill herself...". Bull**** stuff.

Bottom line is he cared more about her feelings than mine during that time. It wasn't until I had a final nuclear meltdown that attracted the neighbors that it sunk into him.

I am amazed that the BS always, ALWAYS is expected to take the high road during this time. During what we thought was "recovery"..."reconciliation"..."repair". It seems we are expected to do the hard work.

Getting back to the original post statement: WE have an unremorseful OW. Jumped in knowing about me and didn't care. Harrassed him endlessly to leave me. Even outlined to him how to deceive me on a daily basis. Got one of their mutual High School buddies to pass on messages to H when he wasn't answering her. Used her KID TOO. "Oh PLEASE call my mom!!!" AND...continued to ask him for money. AND JEWELRY!! See, she was destitute and he loaned her thousands of dollars and paid her bills.

Oh I did a background check on her. She has several outstanding warrants of failure to appear in court to address defaulting on her bills. And her credit rating is almost as low as a bottom feeder. Showed it to my H. He was speechless. She has no remorse for the destruction she contributed to. She lost her bank account.

I'm going to say, in my case, its not the unremorseful OW that is making healing slow. Its my WS who is dumber than a doorknob. That's where I lay the blame.

July 6, 2013

Wow, interesting question-

I was interested in remorse/ empathy levels of the WS for the BS in different situations for the past few days. I think I have come to the conclusion (my opinion only) that it is VERY RARE that the WS has any true understanding or empathy for the magnitude of the BS pain. If he or she did, they wouldn't have had the affair in the first place. But I guess some people can learn from their actions after the fact. Maybe.

In my situation there is zero chance any of the AP's had any empathy for me. No wait- that's not true. I encountered one who claimed not to know he had a girlfriend. It was a long time ago so the memory is not really very clear. She was unapologetic, just said, Oh, he lied to me...

That was when I figured out what was going on and I dumped him- I heard that girl tried to date him for about a month, I believe they had sex twice. From the texts I've seen that's the most accurate picture I can paint. But he's a sex addict and skilled liar so. Who knows.

I'm making do with empathy for myself, and long rambling postings on loveshack, reading tons of books and articles and blogs, and therapy.

But I am interested in hearing the responses to this question from people who have been in this situation!

It makes all the difference in the world that WS is able to develop some empathy during reconciliation. I even think them showing empathy would be helpful for those who decide to divorce. I just think it throws a monkey wrench into the healing process at times if/when you have an unrepentant OW or OM who refuses to go NC or goes the extra.mile to continue to insert themselves into WS and BS lives after the affair is over. I understand all need to heal, but an AP that won't go away is like asomeone poking an angry bear with a stick. Thankfully in our scenario, the ExOW quickly accepted it was over after about a month of attempting to contact my H with no response. But I understand not all are that lucky :/

I

July 6, 2013

Save150.

WHAT?!?!

That is not lack of empathy. That sounds like... mental terrorism!

There is no possible justification for anything you just described he did. Is he still in contact with this woman?

July 6, 2013

Save150.

WHAT?!?!

That is not lack of empathy. That sounds like... mental terrorism!

There is no possible justification for anything you just described he did. Is he still in contact with this woman?

Not sure. My investigations from last time leads to a NO. I just did a welfare check at his job this past week. Unannounced. Sat down at his desk and searched his computer emails and websites, laptop, etc. I'm so well known at that office nobody finds it unusual to find a spouse waiting in someone's office playing on the internet. He was in a meeting. He was conducting some of his EA from his work email address (after I found all the other ones)

Can we spell S-T-U-P-I-D?

So either he has stopped as he promised me THIS time, or, he really went underground. Time will tell. At this point, patience is on my side.

July 7, 2013

Not sure. My investigations from last time leads to a NO. I just did a welfare check at his job this past week. Unannounced. Sat down at his desk and searched his computer emails and websites, laptop, etc. I'm so well known at that office nobody finds it unusual to find a spouse waiting in someone's office playing on the internet. He was in a meeting. He was conducting some of his EA from his work email address (after I found all the other ones)

Can we spell S-T-U-P-I-D?

So either he has stopped as he promised me THIS time, or, he really went underground. Time will tell. At this point, patience is on my side.

Do you have a plan if and when you do find he is still in contact with her?

I think we hijacked this thread. I'm sorry hopingagain. Maybe there is a way we can get back on topic. It's a good topic.

July 7, 2013

Thank you for this thread.

I need to be upfront that I am struggling with coming out of an A as the OW.

We didn't physically have sex but that's more of a grey area and not very relevant because it was pretty much "close enough."

I don't usually even mention that tidbit because of how little it matters but this thread has me thinking on my situation and my former situation years ago as a BS and some details in both situations I hadn't pondered.

As a BS, the OW was my neighbor and friend.

My spouse walked out on me and our 2 children 3 days before Cmas to run off with her. From there, she spread some pretty mind boggling lies about me saying I had slept with all these guys and even claimed to have physically assaulted me.

(I have had 2 sexual partners in my life and I never saw her after he ran off with her so no altercation could have even taken place.)

Thinking back on it, I think the fact that she knew me made it personal.

The lies and attacks were salt on a wound.

Not only because she knew me but that my husband would prefer someone like that over me.

Now, thinking on this as the OW.

You have me thinking and it's good.

Some justifications I have used consciously or not:

I don't know her, it isn't personal.

I have no inclination to take him from her.

(I never wanted to live with him.)

She doesn't want him anyway.

I know enough about her (for sure) to know that she is a very attractive, slightly athletic, slightly younger than me woman who has great friends and family and who had a weakness of sorts in the marriage because she has insisted for years on sleeping in separate bedrooms and not interested in his hobbies.

(I was his only A and truly never understood why but that is the way it was. Yes, I know for sure.)

They never had children and to me he slightly "affaired down" in some ways.

The only thing I offered that she didn't was attention and companionship.

I say this because I never thought badly of her (was curious about some things but not in a mean spirited way) and I never felt I wanted to take him from her.

My thinking was obviously "off", but in my head I just wanted him to spend time with me when she didn't want him anyway.

I was never actively trying to compete with her.

She had never suspected anything so neither of us had "outright" lied about anything. (Personal justification perhaps)

I think for him this was his line in the sand for "how bad are we?"

For me, I thought to myself if I ever encountered her in any way that would be mine. As if suddenly she would become "real".

I would never in a million years do this overt nasty stuff.

It's as if we can look at the picture and there is always something worse we could do and choose not to and therefore we aren't as bad or that bad. I'm not as bad as the OW was when I was the BS, type of thing.

As crappy as all this sounds- and I realize this now- I am just being honest and I do truly try to own my bad stuff when I realize it.

This thread has helped me face more of my character defects.

He had a mini D-Day (she thinks he was just talking online to a random girl from a website- no clue we had been seeing each other daily and nightly for almost a year.)

At that point he ended everything because he "cannot look her in the eyes after seeing what I have caused her."

I have struggled with losing him but I told him NC when it came down to "lets keep in touch occasionally as friends", admittedly for me but also aware that I would hinder what it is he is trying to do now. (Work on his marriage.)

In some weird way, this thread has also helped me understand how he ended it so fast by reminding me that I, myself, swore I would never be able to talk to her and carry on- how could he do it after the meltdown and such?

This is a bit like peeling off an onion and I'm sure the longer I sit here and ponder it, the more "Duh" moments I will have and hopefully my thoughts will become more rational and self awareness will continue to grow.

I'm not sure I have said anything of use here, but just sharing.

Best Wishes to You

July 7, 2013

The MOW in our case did apologize only after she gave her BH an out for his fun. Then suddenly claimed to know exactly how I felt. I told her she had no clue because she gave him permission. On the other hand, they (FWH and MOW) snuck around behind our backs. That was the last time I talked with her.

The apology was generic in nature so I really don't believe it was heartfelt. And personally I don't care if she is remorseful or not as long as she stays the heck away from me, my FWH and our family.

Right now her time should be spent apologizing a thousand times over to her BH. After all this is my FWH was one of at least six affairs she has had over their marriage.

I also don't think there is much she could say to ever change my feelings about her.

July 7, 2013

Our OW was/is crazy no remorse, just harassment after Dday
Like Kat, it helped us along because he saw full well the danger he put me in by engaging in that behavior and how much I was being hurt by the intrusions- sounds odd, but her quest to break up us actually helped us become closer-

May I ask how long was your ws involved in the affair? I think the length of time and intensity of the affair makes a difference as to whether a reconcilliation is possible.

July 7, 2013

Do you have a plan if and when you do find he is still in contact with her?

I think we hijacked this thread. I'm sorry hopingagain. Maybe there is a way we can get back on topic. It's a good topic.

No worries. Save, I'm sorry you experienced that and I think you should continue surveillance until you feel safe to trust him again, if ever!

July 7, 2013

I appreciate your response, it is also helpful to me to be able to see perspective from the other side.

Your experience as a BS had to have been very traumatic, especially as a double betrayal. Can I ask how long after the marriage ended that you became an OW? Judging from what you wrote you were still dealing with the pain from that betrayal when your affair began. Its crazy how all of these dynamics can tie together.

The OW in our situation had recently broken up with her childrens father, according to my WH. Now I am curious as to if her relationship ending was due to infidelity on either of their parts ( hers and her boyfriend). I suspect she was in a vulnerable place from some of what I heard her tell my husband on Dday....

Thank you for this thread.

I need to be upfront that I am stru]ggling with coming out of an A as the OW.
We didn't physically have sex but that's more of a grey area and not very relevant because it was pretty much "close enough."
I don't usually even mention that tidbit because of how little it matters but this thread has me thinking on my situation and my former situation years ago as a BS and some details in both situations I hadn't pondered.

As a BS, the OW was my neighbor and friend.
My spouse walked out on me and our 2 children 3 days before Cmas to run off with her. From there, she spread some pretty mind boggling lies about me saying I had slept with all these guys and even claimed to have physically assaulted me.
(I have had 2 sexual partners in my life and I never saw her after he ran off with her so no altercation could have even taken place.)

Thinking back on it, I think the fact that she knew me made it personal.
The lies and attacks were salt on a wound.
Not only because she knew me but that my husband would prefer someone like that over me.

Now, thinking on this as the OW.
You have me thinking and it's good.

Some justifications I have used consciously or not:
I don't know her, it isn't personal.
I have no inclination to take him from her.
(I never wanted to live with him.)
She doesn't want him anyway.

I know enough about her (for sure) to know that she is a very attractive, slightly athletic, slightly younger than me woman who has great friends and family and who had a weakness of sorts in the marriage because she has insisted for years on sleeping in separate bedrooms and not interested in his hobbies.
(I was his only A and truly never understood why but that is the way it was. Yes, I know for sure.)
They never had children and to me he slightly "affaired down" in some ways.
The only thing I offered that she didn't was attention and companionship.

I say this because I never thought badly of her (was curious about some things but not in a mean spirited way) and I never felt I wanted to take him from her.
My thinking was obviously "off", but in my head I just wanted him to spend time with me when she didn't want him anyway.
I was never actively trying to compete with her.

She had never suspected anything so neither of us had "outright" lied about anything. (Personal justification perhaps)
I think for him this was his line in the sand for "how bad are we?"

For me, I thought to myself if I ever encountered her in any way that would be mine. As if suddenly she would become "real".
I would never in a million years do this overt nasty stuff.

It's as if we can look at the picture and there is always something worse we could do and choose not to and therefore we aren't as bad or that bad. I'm not as bad as the OW was when I was the BS, type of thing.

As crappy as all this sounds- and I realize this now- I am just being honest and I do truly try to own my bad stuff when I realize it.
This thread has helped me face more of my character defects.

He had a mini D-Day (she thinks he was just talking online to a random girl from a website- no clue we had been seeing each other daily and nightly for almost a year.)
At that point he ended everything because he "cannot look her in the eyes after seeing what I have caused her."

I have struggled with losing him but I told him NC when it came down to "lets keep in touch occasionally as friends", admittedly for me but also aware that I would hinder what it is he is trying to do now. (Work on his marriage.)

In some weird way, this thread has also helped me understand how he ended it so fast by reminding me that I, myself, swore I would never be able to talk to her and carry on- how could he do it after the meltdown and such?

This is a bit like peeling off an onion and I'm sure the longer I sit here and ponder it, the more "Duh" moments I will have and hopefully my thoughts will become more rational and self awareness will continue to grow.

I'm not sure I have said anything of use here, but just sharing.

Best Wishes to You

July 7, 2013

Underwater, wow, she had some nerve! Those situations are in no way comparable. I guess she just wanted a way to make herself feel like she made some amends, but I agree it sounds like an insincere and shallow apology at best! Glad to hear you are not concerning yourself with her at this point!

July 7, 2013

I appreciate your response, it is also helpful to me to be able to see perspective from the other side.

Your experience as a BS had to have been very traumatic, especially as a double betrayal. Can I ask how long after the marriage ended that you became an OW? Judging from what you wrote you were still dealing with the pain from that betrayal when your affair began. Its crazy how all of these dynamics can tie together.

The OW in our situation had recently broken up with her childrens father, according to my WH. Now I am curious as to if her relationship ending was due to infidelity on either of their parts ( hers and her boyfriend). I suspect she was in a vulnerable place from some of what I heard her tell my husband on Dday....

I was much younger then and I really lost my mind for a few weeks with anger and extreme desperation of sadness, etc.

In our case, he left with her and stayed gone for 5 months.

They fell apart and he came crawling back then.

We had been together for 5 years at that point in time and after we reconciled we stayed together for another 5 years.

The Affair changed everything.

On one hand, there were areas of our marriage that improved dramatically and seemed almost as if the "worst thing to ever happened was one of the best" things. For awhile.

In the end though, during the next 5 years- I realized that I had too much unresolved for me. One of the biggest struggles was "How come he got to go play and experiment and I didn't?" It had changed my view of way too much.

Things I had been happy with before- were no longer enough or fair enough for me.

I can't say this is why we eventually divorced but I know it played a heck of a role in it. Something was just permanently broken in my perception or something. Very hard to even understand myself much less find adequate words to convey it.

13 years later I became the OW. (This was back in 1998 actually- I was very young.)

While it wasn't a direct point A to point B correlation, I do think it set the stage- changed my view of things in the world- to lead to some unhealthy choices which led me here over time.

The biggest probably that I lost belief in the sanctity of marriage and lost belief that marriage is forever.

Going to have to mental note this for IC.

Not that being vulnerable is ANY excuse, it is a possibilty for the OW you speak of.

I had an extreme vulnerability of sorts when I met my MM.

I had just moved states, went through some very traumatic issues including losing my son and current relationship was dead in the water.

With all that said though- I have to be totally honest and say that on some level- I was looking for someone and didn't care if he was a MM.

How it all happened was a huge immediate connection and such but if I hadn't been looking on some level already, it never would have happened at all.

I had a door cracked open.

It wasn't "busted open" by a burglar or something.

Hope that makes sense.

July 8, 2013

Thanks, Krazikat. It sure sounds like you went through the ringer with OWs actions after Dday as well, and I am sorry to hear that too. Seems you and your H handled it well though.

My focus has been on husband from day 1, but plenty of anger has been directed towards OW as well just because of what I perceived to be the callousness of her actions. That was a minor annoyance though compared to what I felt about WHs actions.

Since our therapy, which began about 6 weeks after Dday, WH has done a lot to show support and understanding of my feelings. Just last night he was triggered by hearing about a family members affair, and started talking about how badly he felt "for what he had done to me." It took me off guard because he rarely mentions the affair without me bringing it up first, so I realized that he's still grappling with his conscience and the unsolicited show of remorse touched me. I think that reading through some posts and seeing an OW express a similar type of remorse just really made me think about the impact of those who do versus those who don't. Its not something I plan to dwell on though as I'm focused on healing myself and doing my part to help heal our marriage.

I will admit I had much anger towards ow and it stemmed from her treatment of me, how she seemed to act like I intruded on her relationship, that I was the ow. We even had a talk a few weeks after dday where apologized, and I thought that was the end of it...but then weeks later she blew up my phone and was saying many crazy things...it was ugly.

Reading the others board helped me put it in perspective, that she was also dealing with her own pain and the end of her relationship with my husband. It also made me realize that even tho I had not known about her previously, she was still competing with me, and when it was clear she was being dumped for good, she lashed out at me in her pain. I really wish my H hadnt brought this into my life, because it sux!!!

July 8, 2013

I was much younger then and I really lost my mind for a few weeks with anger and extreme desperation of sadness, etc.
In our case, he left with her and stayed gone for 5 months.
They fell apart and he came crawling back then.

We had been together for 5 years at that point in time and after we reconciled we stayed together for another 5 years.
The Affair changed everything.
On one hand, there were areas of our marriage that improved dramatically and seemed almost as if the "worst thing to ever happened was one of the best" things. For awhile.
In the end though, during the next 5 years- I realized that I had too much unresolved for me. One of the biggest struggles was "How come he got to go play and experiment and I didn't?" It had changed my view of way too much.
Things I had been happy with before- were no longer enough or fair enough for me.
I can't say this is why we eventually divorced but I know it played a heck of a role in it. Something was just permanently broken in my perception or something. Very hard to even understand myself much less find adequate words to convey it.

13 years later I became the OW. (This was back in 1998 actually- I was very young.)
While it wasn't a direct point A to point B correlation, I do think it set the stage- changed my view of things in the world- to lead to some unhealthy choices which led me here over time.
The biggest probably that I lost belief in the sanctity of marriage and lost belief that marriage is forever.

Going to have to mental note this for IC.

Not that being vulnerable is ANY excuse, it is a possibilty for the OW you speak of.
I had an extreme vulnerability of sorts when I met my MM.

I had just moved states, went through some very traumatic issues including losing my son and current relationship was dead in the water.

With all that said though- I have to be totally honest and say that on some level- I was looking for someone and didn't care if he was a MM.
How it all happened was a huge immediate connection and such but if I hadn't been looking on some level already, it never would have happened at all.
I had a door cracked open.
It wasn't "busted open" by a burglar or something.
Hope that makes sense.

Maybe in some way you now having the experience of being a remorseful OW after being a BS with a totally unremorseful, spiteful OW years ago is a cathartic experience for you, a subconscious way of restoring order and sanity to your universe in a really bizarre way. I'm not saying you are bizarre, I'm saying that when we experience really bad trauma our minds do all sorts of mental gymnastics to try to restore order to chaos, to try to right wrongs.

It seems like there are many BS that find themselves in the position of OW or WS down the line who never would have thought they were capable of it prior to the experience of being the BS. I wonder if that is correlated to the remorse of the WS and/ or OW as well.

Thank you for sharing your story- the analogy of the open door vs it being forced open by a burglar was insightful- good imagery for me to keep in mind if and when I am faced with a challenging or tempting situation.

July 8, 2013

after DDay I had empathy in my heart for a lonely D dealing with a difficult child following an acrimonious D with ongoing litigation.

I figured she too got caught up in his mid-life crisising depression and knew she was also lied to.

I was so wrong. She was angry, vindictive and contemptuous of me. She went out of her way to accidentally bump into us and check out her competition. After DDay, she had friends stalking me. She grew so smug, she attended my FIL's funeral.

Two years after he initiated NC, she waltzed into his new office and pushed every button he had to see if he was interested in reigniting the affair.

Yes, it does impede healing for very ego-centric reason as in " For that nut-job drama queen you risked losing us?":laugh:

so, not only did I have to deal with the affair, I had to deal with his very poor choice in AP.

it made me realize how vulnerable he was to anyone, even a con, who flattered him. That made us more vulnerable.

July 8, 2013

Lake of remorse all around my WS/WW and OM......

But since we are on "Other"....OM was incapable of remorse, he viewed infidelity as part of his culture, monogmamy as impracital, and just human nature. He continued to pursue my wife (not majorly mind you - just here and there pokes) for several years.

I really could care less about his views or lack of remorse, other than she cared for him at one point, but the real problem for me was how he viewed my wife's moral compass.. (and me as well) ...which was not without some justficiation given her past and views (long story).

Sigh...

July 8, 2013

The MOW in our case did apologize only after she gave her BH an out for his fun. Then suddenly claimed to know exactly how I felt. I told her she had no clue because she gave him permission. On the other hand, they (FWH and MOW) snuck around behind our backs. That was the last time I talked with her.

The apology was generic in nature so I really don't believe it was heartfelt. And personally I don't care if she is remorseful or not as long as she stays the heck away from me, my FWH and our family.

Right now her time should be spent apologizing a thousand times over to her BH. After all this is my FWH was one of at least six affairs she has had over their marriage.

I also don't think there is much she could say to ever change my feelings about her.

OW in my situation actually told me on DDay that she was so hurt by my H she "felt like she was getting a divorce" whatever that means. She knew my H all of 7-8 weeks....yeah

She also played the victim during our whole meeting and wanted to somehow compare our grief's. Even though she had just gotten done having sex (with one of her three other sexual partners at the time) like an hour before we met. I actually heard her moaning as she accidentally answered the phone while I was trying to call her. I thought it was her with my H at the time. I literally was sick from hearing this. ...but she readily admitted to it being one of her many bfs ,even though she was married herself. She was actually making a pit stop for some penis before she picked her H up from work. The same work place that my WH was working. She was charming. He crooked wig was charming as well.

She never really apologized and I really didn't care. She was embarrassed mainly. It was a messed up situation and if I wasn't pregnant at the time I'm not sure how I would have handled the aftermath. Part of me says I would had gotten some sort of revenge on my H. A tit for tat type of thing. I was feeling very low and vindictive.

I don't care if she was sorry. I don't believe she was. My H was just one of the many men she was juggling for attention. She knew about me and my pregnancy and the health concerns I was/am having. Didn't stop either of them so no one can really be all that sorry.

Gah! One step forward and two steps back. Hello anger!

July 9, 2013

Hmmm, I'm not sure whether her remorse would have made any difference. I believe she was very very hurt by the dumping from my OH. He led her on when all he wanted was sex. Not that he actually got very much but the time he spent on her to get it was ridiculous and that's what hurts the most probably for her as well. However, she went some in telling me details. She used social media to do it. But it was minutes after he had dumped her so I assume immediate anger. He reckons she was always going to do it and that's why she kept everything. I don't. If she was always going to keep evidence and use it against him she could have taken more pictures than she did etc. She was nasty and continued to be for some days. Got the police involved and she was given a warning. She tweeted things that we couldn't get her for but we ignored. She tried to make out that he was back seeing her a couple of times which was rubbish. She did damage and now will know that we are still together so assume has given up. She started to write I think so perhaps that's helping her. I had mixed feelings about her. I felt very sorry for her because I knew she was hurt, I believe she loved/s him andfeels very used and wanted to hurt him. He thinks she's just cross that a prospective meal ticket has gone but I think he doesn't want to believe that he messed her up too and wants to see her as equally to blame. I don't believe that she is. So although I felt sorry for her she went all out to hurt me, presumably to get at him and to split us up? Reading around this forum though I feel less sorry for her as she gave me no thought so why am I giving her anyway. I don't think how she behaved would have made the process easier or more difficult. What made it more difficult I suppose is that she gave me so much information that it just kept coming and showed up more and more lies, that's what was/is difficult.

Sorry that was a right old ramble wasn't it?! Anyone make any sense of it?!

July 9, 2013

I personally do not give a rats a$$ about any emotion, concern, or feelings the OW had whether she knew or not is irrelevant to me.

The act itself is hurtful and selfish. Our WS responses determine the outcome. If the WS is remorseful they can let go, if not then the BS should.

The OP is of no importance to me whatsoever.

July 9, 2013

OW in my situation actually told me on DDay that she was so hurt by my H she "felt like she was getting a divorce" whatever that means. She knew my H all of 7-8 weeks....yeah

She also played the victim during our whole meeting and wanted to somehow compare our grief's. Even though she had just gotten done having sex (with one of her three other sexual partners at the time) like an hour before we met. I actually heard her moaning as she accidentally answered the phone while I was trying to call her. I thought it was her with my H at the time. I literally was sick from hearing this. ...but she readily admitted to it being one of her many bfs ,even though she was married herself. She was actually making a pit stop for some penis before she picked her H up from work. The same work place that my WH was working. She was charming. He crooked wig was charming as well.

She never really apologized and I really didn't care. She was embarrassed mainly. It was a messed up situation and if I wasn't pregnant at the time I'm not sure how I would have handled the aftermath. Part of me says I would had gotten some sort of revenge on my H. A tit for tat type of thing. I was feeling very low and vindictive.

I don't care if she was sorry. I don't believe she was. My H was just one of the many men she was juggling for attention. She knew about me and my pregnancy and the health concerns I was/am having. Didn't stop either of them so no one can really be all that sorry.

Gah! One step forward and two steps back. Hello anger!

I strongly suspect our situation would have been similar to this, had it continued. I caught it after only a few weeks. right before it escalated to sex. WH wanted to, but she was holding out as she wanted more of a "relationship" with him. As it was, I think that it was like a game to her at first, and then she got really pissed when she discovered that my WH was blowing her off and really not intending to continue the affair with her after Dday. I totally get and agree with that last line you wrote, too!

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Having a remorseful OW/OM vs. Non remorseful OW/OM

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