kyh Posted July 6, 2013 Posted July 6, 2013 Not sure what anybody can do to help me. Who knows. It's 4:19 in the AM and this has been going on for more than 18 months, time to try something new. Anonyvent! Started dating at 22 or so, married when we were 25. We were best friends, good partners, sex was great and frequent, etc. We get married, everything changes. She was complaining about sexual pain. She was too shy to talk to a doctor about it. She keeps saying that she thinks it will pass, we keep having sex, it keeps hurting her (obviously once things get going), we start stopping when it's hurting her. I tell her I don't want to have sex that is painful to her, she starts lying and trying to hide the pain. I eventually notice, so I stop having sex with her until she goes to the doctor. Multiple doctors basically shrug and send her home. After a few tries she gives up. Sex completely stops. I just want her to be happy, and I'm patient, plus sickness and health and all that. Time passes. 4-5 years go by, we've had sex maybe 3-4 times during that time. Maybe I should say we have 3-4 sexual periods during that time, maybe a week on then a year off type of thing. At this point she still experiences the pain occasionally, and things have started becoming awkward. The rejections start racking up, she won't let me see her naked at all, she won't let me get her off without penetration, anything 'just for me' is given the way you would give a bully your milk money. I stop asking for anything. Sickness and health. 3-4 years go by. No sex at all. We travel a lot together, we are best friends, we do all kinds of cool things together. We cuddle and watch TV, we talk for hours, we see eye to eye on just about every issue under the sun. I am patient. I promised I would be patient. I occasionally try to broach the subject of our sexless marriage, she starts making excuses. She has gained some weight so she doesn't feel pretty anymore (she's hot, maybe 5'8" 140 lbs at her heaviest, not unattractive to me in the least), she says that she feels like I am trying to force her and that I should be patient. I try to be patient but after all of these years I'm starting to seriously question my choices. I start getting depressed. I hide from her when I masturbate because she says it's disgusting. I try to pretend that everything is ok but the subject keeps coming up. She is the laser-focused "doer" in the relationship, paperwork, finances, those types of things are her pervue and we build an amazing and successful life while I go out and get the checks and help her make Big Decisions. We never fight over money or anything other than the occasional dust-up about sex. A few more years pass, we hit our 10th anniversary. At this point the very subject of sex or sexuality causes escalation in her attitude and frustration for me. Now it's that I don't do enough to contribute around the house. I try doing more chores or being better at contributing, but she says that when I do more I'm just "doing what I should have been doing before, not gaining points". I don't understand this, we're still best friends, we had lived in our roles for years and this is the first I've heard of it. I get more depressed. At this point I feel like a boat anchor in her otherwise successful life, even though we make about the same amount of money and still spend 100% of our time together. To celebrate our 10th anniversary we stay in a very posh hotel with a private pool and hot tub in a tropical paradise. Everything was perfect, literally the most romantic thing money can by. She went to bed early every night. We had sort-of-sex once on the third or fourth day, which she treated like a chore. It was a mood killer and I didn't try any more during the trip. A few more years, now we're in year 12 close to 13. We haven't had sex in a few years. We fight about it a lot now. My frustration is pretty much constant, I've grown distant. The few times she engages me in a discussion about sex (discussion mind you, fully clothed!) I come out of it feeling like some kind of selfish rapist ******* for suggesting that she sleep naked with me or that we take showers together again like we did in the beginning. Everything that I fantasize about seems degrading or immoral to her. I've spent 10 years gaining weight (80 lbs) and working myself to death, and now she feels neglected and says that I am less attractive than I was when we used to have sex due to the weight gain. These conversations are devastating to me, but I promised her something. We still go through the motions, watching TV, cuddling, but at this point I can never sleep at night with her. I lie in bed thinking about how sexy she is, get frustrated, then get up and leave the bedroom. We talk about this, she says she doesn't feel intimate now because I don't sleep with her anymore, because she doesn't like the way I breathe, because she doesn't like the way I talk to her. I beg and plead for months and she decides to consider counseling. "You make it happen and I'll go", she says. I find a local counselor that claims to be an expert on sexual issues. She is a lesbian, but I'm a liberal-minded so I think nothing of it. Not sure if this might be a contributing factor, but wifey specified that the counselor had to be a female so there you go. I tell wifey that I would really like to focus on getting her to open up to me more and show me some passion for the life we've built, with fixing the sexual issues as another main pain point. It doesn't go that way. Starting on the first day of counseling, the counselor "empowers" wifey by basically saying "What does he do that makes you not want to have sex with him" and wifey went OFF. For months, every weekly session was about everything I had done wrong the previous week. I would occasionally try to speak up and say that this counseling was just making me feel even more like a failure, but the counselor would say things like "it's your responsibility to take out the trash, so if you forget you are telling your wife you don't love her enough. Why should she sleep with you?" I weakly reply with "because we love each other and sex is fun?" Scoff scoff, apparently that's not how it's supposed to work. At one point the counselor suggested that we "fake it till we make it", which resulted in some awkward situations where wifey would come at me with an attitude like "You can have your sex now if you must", to which I would decline. Then she would complain in the next session that I was rejecting her. The counselor heaped that blame on me as well as apparently as a guy I am not supposed to care if she wants to do it or not or something. I should just be happy to have a window of opportunity! The counseling continues down this path, my emotions are at an all time low, I just can't feel anything anymore. I avoid my wife almost all of the time. We still go through the motions, watch TV, out to dinner, sleep seperately. We still tell each other we love each other. I tell my wife I can't see this counselor anymore, that I want to switch. I tell her that I am trying as hard as I can and that I really want to make this work. Sickness and health. My wife decides to go to "one more" individual session with the counselor after I dropped out. The counselor told her that by not showing up to the session that I was telling my wife that I didn't love her. She told my wife that I am controlling and manipulative and that she needs to stand up to me. My wife doesn't tell me that this happened until much later. Meanwhile, my wife has started flirting with guys online using her computer. At first I didn't mind, it made her feel attractive and I thought maybe it would help her reconcile whatever was going on with us. I saw it as a "learning adventure" and tried to be open with her about it. She became more and more closed and withdrawn. She started sneaking around and avoiding me so she could talk to her new friends. She wouldn't discuss with me what was happening with her new friends. I complained about this behavior, and she moved out. Now, 19 months later, I still haven't had sex. I'm charming, funny, outgoing, and honest, so getting girls to like me and follow me home isn't that difficult. I've had offers, I've had girls spend the night several times, but I find that I can't "seal the deal" anymore. When the time comes, I can't help but feel like I've done something wrong, like I'm being manipulative, like the girl isn't into it, like I'm some kind of rapist for wanting to touch her at all, much less take pleasure from her. I can't stand the idea of facing that type of rejection again. I can't stand to be a guy that a girl regrets going to bed with. Sex used to be something that was fun, a sharing, two people making each other feel good. Now it just seems like a minefield of pain and disappointment. Girls that follow me home now feel rejected, frustrated, and unattractive because although I don't mind getting them off, I can't ask that they do the same for me. My charm and wit and apparent self esteem go right out the window when my shirt comes off. They could offer to get me off and I would let them, but girls don't like that. They want a man to make them feel attractive and I don't even remember how to do that anymore. Nobody wants a project. Nobody can help. I can't share this with anyone because nobody I know understands. Supposedly sex-positive counselors tell me to fake it until I make it because I'm a guy, so my goal in life is obviously penis-in-vagina. When I try to explain to them that I need more than hesitant permission, they tell me I'm being too sensitive and not male enough. I am lonely. I don't know how to end this. I am afraid. I just want to be a good guy and tell the truth.
BC1980 Posted July 6, 2013 Posted July 6, 2013 First, you have nothing to be ashamed of by wanting to have sex with your wife (this is coming from a woman). I mean, no sex for years is pretty ridiculous. A wife should want to have sex with her husband. Second, there is some reason she does not want to have sex with you, and it isn't the pain she was talking about. Why did she suddenly find sex painful, and all the doctors have no answers? That makes no sense. Is she a lesbian? Is she no longer attracted to you? There is something you are missing here. Third, I think you should broach the topic of divorce. I am not a fan of divorce, but, in this instance, she refused to have sex for years and moved out. Something must be done, and I don't think she wants to work it out. You obviously have low self-esteem from years of this. I would tell her you want a divorce, and see how she reacts. What do you have to lose at this point? Your self-esteem is low, and something must be done.
elfman Posted July 6, 2013 Posted July 6, 2013 (edited) Hey man, sorry to hear your story... I've been there. I am confused... you talk about "bringing girls home", did your marriage suddenly go down "Open Relationship" avenue? Or did you divorce/separate? When my marriage to my 10 year wife (who I loved deeply) was ending, she made me feel like I was a baaaaad sexual partner, to be honest the simple act of penetration would set me off 1 or 2 minutes after we started, and I was 34 back then and healthy! I became terribly frustrated, and terribly afraid that if she left, I would never again satisfy a woman sexually. I can relate to you also on her thinking that every sexual fantasy I had, and masturbation, were seen like I was the sickest pervert in the world, so I, like yourself, got frustrated terribly. It seems to me your wife has sistematically alienated you from a healthy sex life... (Did you eventually find out what this "pain was???? Could she have been molested as a child? Is there something you do not know that happened to her? It seems weird the doctors didnt find anything wrong) and it is absolutely ridiculous. Our preconceptions are so easily manipulated by our partner, but you have to remember something VERY important you told that counselor: SEX IS FUN. You have to grow out of your fears, and that can only come from running with it. By the time I separated and started going out, I was too afraid to take women to bed, until one night I worked up the courage to do it (basically getting a little tipsy and saying to myself well, the worst thing that can happen is I get accused of being a predator, and I feel like that anyway, so **ck it). Let me tell you, this girl still calls me now and again for just sex... her look of disbelief after 9 consecutive times the same night was poetic, and only surpassed than my own look of disbelief at myself! We made love for 7 hours, 4 at night, with 9 at-bats, and then 3 he following morning with 5 more times. I think that counselor **cked things up more, that is why I think shrinks should be liable for the messes they make. In any case... have you started working out? getting in shape? that part is supremely important (if annoying at first). Let us know how you're feeling, and if you can answer the questions above as to divorce or open relationship we might provide better insight. I know you WANT to stop feeling inadequate, so saying that you should is redundant. What I will say is YOU CAN stop feeling inadequate, but you have to take a leap of faith on your own abilities, you will not be dissapointed. Hope you feel better soon. E. P.S: Do you have kids? Is your wife still "fooling around" on the internet? (Seems strange someone who thinks sex is bad would seek it out online, I believe there is more to it than she is letting on, meaning I am sure she has some baggage from before that made this happen). Edited July 6, 2013 by elfman 1
Yasuandio Posted July 6, 2013 Posted July 6, 2013 (edited) I receive these helpful newsletters from Michael Fiore - a popular relationship expert. I searched my email for this particular newsletter - as it really discussed the particular issue of a spouse that denies their partner intimacy. The article interested me, because I too, lived in a marriage where sex was eventually completely withheld. I suffered many of the same symptoms as you endured and describe herein. It is the ultimate form of rejection. Years and years of excuses, I felt so neglected as a woman. But-- I continued to perservere, even in the face of abusive treatment. This article does speak of a cheating wife as the cause of the "broken cucumber." And, in your case, these on-line relationships, may be apples not far from that tree. You may never know the real facts about this. It took me literally more than a decade to get it in my thick skull that my husband could not possibly be living without sex for as long as one or two years at a time. As for your wife - who knows what her issue is? But one this is for sure and certain in both our cases - our spouses abandoned us intimately (see bolded/underlined section of article below). I hope you can find some useful information in Michael Fiore's article, and it provides some understanding for what you are experiencing. See below: The Cucumber and The Basket.... [email protected] In today's newsletter, we're going to talk about cheating women and broken cucumbers. But first . . . We're starting off this week with a question from a guy who's genitals are about to wither away from lack of use . . . Dwight asks... “Michael, why are you always talking about men cheating. I have been married for 25 years to the same woman and have never cheated. But my gut says she has cheated on me and I cant get past it. Did the counseling, 2 counselors said they couldn't help her. She wouldn't open up. This feeling started Feb 2012. I have not had sex since Oct 14 2012. What is too long to wait for your married partner of 25 years to have sex again? I need to know. I am not ugly or out of shape and have a great job.” —Dwight Hey Dwight Man, I feel for you. First off, congrats on staying committed and faithful for so long. As I say in a bunch of my stuff, "Monogamy is like flying, humans aren't built for it but if we try really hard we can make it work." Let's break your question down into handy, bite-sized portions: 1. Why am I always talking about men cheating? Um . . . because I get a LOT of women writing in asking why men cheat, whether their men are cheating, how their men are cheating and either how to keep their men from cheating or how to get a married guy they really like to cheat and leave that "shrew" and be with a "wonderful woman like me FOREVER!!" It seems to be a hot-button issue. And as I said in a newsletter a few weeks ago, men and women tend to cheat in roughly the exact same numbers. It's just that women are BETTER at cheating than guys are (men aren't smart about it and don't cover their tracks well.) And women are actually cheating in much higher numbers now than they used to. It's called "women's liberation" or something. Women can now be just as unfaithful as men. Progress! 2. Has YOUR Wife Cheated on you? I dunno. If you were a woman writing this I would immediately get about 60 emails saying "Well, her husband MUST be cheating because her intuition is going off!!" and I'd have to write a long essay about confirmation bias and the myth of intuition. But you're a guy. And really, it doesn't matter if she cheated because she did something worse. She emotionally and physically abandoned you. Now, it's possible that you're waking up every day like a scared and frightened puppy and saying "Did you cheat on me? DID YOU CHEAT ON ME?" and are hovering over her like some overprotective ogre whenever other men are around. And if that's true, then a large portion of this this is on me. But my gut is telling me you're pretty nice guy who just wants to make things work. And you've tried. Heck, do you know how many women reading this would LOVE to have a guy who actually WANTED to go to counseling? The fact that you've tried twice and had both professionals throw their hands up in frustration means . . . well, it kind of means you're screwed. There's something bubbling in her mind and in her heart and until she makes the choice to at least TRY to open up, there's nothing more that you can do. Which brings us to . . . 3. How long is too long to wait to have sex with your married partner of 25 years . . . Man, 7 months is a long time. Yes, yes, there are times you have to go longer than that without having sex (right before and right after having a baby. That can be hell, I hear.) But as guys we really NEED to have regular sex with the women we love to stay connected and engaged in the relationship. And she knows that. She's pushing you away. So . . . If she's unwilling to work on the relationship or open up . . . And your sex life is a shambles . . . And you're at the point you're desperately asking me for help . . . It's time for you to start moving on. Divorce is a consideration. An open relationship is another (if she's not willing to have sex with you is she willing to let you do that with someone else?) But your situation is awful and there's really no great way out of it. Edited July 6, 2013 by Yasuandio Spacing Michael Fiore Newsletter Article 1
Author kyh Posted July 6, 2013 Author Posted July 6, 2013 (edited) I got a little caught up in the story (and it was 4AM), so I wasn't especially clear. She moved out 19 months ago. We're still technically married, we still orbit each other and exchange pleasantries. She has bought a new house so we now have two of those, I've kept the 'old one'. I'm lucky in that way, we really are best friends and not the slightest bit jealous of each other or vindictive. The whole deal with the internet dating was really more about her neglecting me to spend time with them, i.e. me not being her "primary" to use poly type language. When I made that an issue she moved out, so umm..problem solved I guess? We weren't poly, but during that time I was reading some books and learned some things about that. Our relationship is more or less open, she doesn't really care what I do and I don't really care what she does at this point. We have been orbiting around the idea of divorce, but neither of us really wants to pull the trigger. Lately she has been interested in trying to make something work again and has been trying very hard to appreciate what I have sacrificed for her. I'm not sure that it's working though, she's opened a lot of wounds and she is not very good at accepting responsibility for things like that. She says she hasn't ever been abused, but she was raised in a crazy near-cult religious household that sounds borderline abusive to me if only because she was very very sheltered. Private schools, no material posessions, etc. I'm guessing that is the primary bump in her road, but everybody has history to deal with. I was raised by a combination of a hippy mother and a banker father, so I somehow came out of it with a very practical open mindedness or something. heh I appreciate the kind words. I've read literally thousands of pages of relationship books and experts, it's just difficult to get my head around walking away from what I thought was a good life into the unknown alone. I feel ill equipped to date at my age (40) since I haven't been on a first date in 20 years or so. 40 year-old girls are a lot harder around the edges than I remember 20 year-olds to be. I suppose we all are. Edited July 6, 2013 by kyh
Techie Artist Posted July 8, 2013 Posted July 8, 2013 Lately she has been interested in trying to make something work again and has been trying very hard to appreciate what I have sacrificed for her. I'm not sure that it's working though, she's opened a lot of wounds and she is not very good at accepting responsibility for things like that. She says she hasn't ever been abused, but she was raised in a crazy near-cult religious household that sounds borderline abusive to me if only because she was very very sheltered. Private schools, no material posessions, etc. She is exhibiting signs of being sexually abused. Maybe she has repressed the experience(s). Or, maybe she has "dirty girl" syndrome (my term). If there is no physical ailment that careful doctors can find, perhaps it's all in her mind. Religious girls are made to feel that sex is bad, for dirty girls, and only for procreation. Been there, healed from that! She may not enjoy sex. The tension and friction can be overwhelming to some, especially if anatomy isn't lining up quite right. She may be afraid to orgasm...to totally lose control. She may not want to GIVE sex, so then she feels guilty RECEIVING sex. Therefore, she won't start at all. These all may be part of the results severe religious conditioning can generate. It seems like you had a healthy relationship without the sexual factor. You were besties and lifetime friends. It's just the lack of sex, which makes it difficult for a bona fide marriage. Not good for you. You made mention of her acknowledging your "sacrifice" for her. That's a loaded word. It means a lot to her, and you need to find out what she meant by that. I'm sorry that the repeated years of understanding have degenerated to an open relationship where you're in limbo. It sounds like you really do love her. Your counselor suggesting to "fake it til ya make it" seems insensitive. It's not a "performance" issue as much as it is a mental issue, especially since she is citing domestic issues as the source of anger/disappointment. Either she's deflecting the real issue(s), or she's using sex as a bargaining chip to reward/punish, or something else?? Finally, the dating thing is just weird. Far fetched, but could it be that all along she's had someone else and didn't want you to discover the remnants of another man so she rejected your advances? 1
lovemaynotbeenough Posted July 8, 2013 Posted July 8, 2013 Wow! My husband/ex complained that we didnt do it enough for him and we did it at least once a week. Usually more. He made me feel like a terrible wife if I turned him down. He constantly complained about it. I mean like daily. I do think looking back now that I did kinda keep it from him as a sort of punishment for all... I mean ALL responsibility for kids, house, financials being on me. It doesn't sound like the case with you. You sound extremely patient and caring with your wife. Sounds like things were equal in the relationship. It just doesn't make any sense to me. My husband would tell me I made him feel disguisting. That I never wanted him. Maybe that was true. I did get to the point where I would fake orgasms or ask if he could just get off really quick for me. Your situation is extreme! Years of complete rejection sexually.I am so sorry that you have dealt with this for so long. And I am baffled. Seems like you and your wife love eachother. And if things were equal. I really have no advice. I am no expert. Your story just made me feel for you. I commend you for being so very patient with your wife and actually searching your marriage vows for doing the right thing. I honestly do not know how you could go so long that way.
Packard Posted July 8, 2013 Posted July 8, 2013 KYH, Holy Cow; I thought that I was a hero. You put me to shame! Your internal strength and strength of character definitely impress me. I had tried at least three councilors before I found one that I could work with, could learn from, could become healthier in all ways. Thus, may I encourage you to diligently seek another councilor - - - for YOURSELF! Personally, I think that your woman is a total lost cause. Yes, I remain aware that you have feelings for her. Become aware and remember that you cannot help her until you yourself are well and healthy. As the monastery abbot said to the young monk, Martin Luther, "Martin, you cannot help your soul by punishing your body." I truly believe that you have crossed a line into punishing yourself, or allowing bad advice to cause punishment to yourself. Please step back and notice that such is not working . . . . the same ol', same ol' isn't generating change or help, right? May I be so bold as to suggest the following, which I say in all seriousness, as a man in his mid-60s: 1. You must separate from her for an indefinite amount of time; 2. You must get good professional help for yourself, ASAP (not that lezzie dope); and 3. Encourage her to seek professional help for herself----someone other than who you are seeing . . . at least for 4 - 6 months. She will want a female councilor. You know yourself as to which gender would be better for you; but far more important is to find someone GOOD! Get mentally healthy, and then you can proceed toward other gains. But I truly believe that you must become willing ["get out of denial"] to "call a spade, a spade". I know that you care deeply for this woman; but you are seriously harming yourself - - - and for no justifiable reason. Don't kid yourself anymore. I don't mean to be harsh; but you must create a radical "break" in how things are transpiring between the two of you. Take courage. I have confidence in YOU. You CAN do it. I look forward to you becoming well. Peace. "Packard"
Author kyh Posted July 10, 2013 Author Posted July 10, 2013 Thanks again for the kind words, it's definitely been a trial. We hung out again the other night, again with the negotiating "going forward". The current stance I'm taking is kind of like "you broke it, you fix it" as I feel I've done as much as I can by just being patient and caring about her through this. I'm not certain that I still love her, or that we are still compatible, but I have plenty of room in my heart to care about her and want the best for her and if I can be that best (like we promised each other) I'll do what I feel like I can. I have learned a lot about not giving up more than I want to during our separation so I guess that's a positive thing. I'm not positive that she hasn't slept with others in the time we've been split. She might well have and I certainly wouldn't fault her for that, after all I've seduced half a dozen girls into my bedroom in the last few years even if I never sealed the deal. lol! I do know though that she didn't physically sleep with anyone while she was still living here, she was just messing around flirting like webcam type stuff mostly, although I think it progressed to the "emotional affair" phase a bit. She says all that is over now, and says she has had similar dating experiences to me in the last few years. She's gotten an opportunity to learn how predatory single 40ish guys can be, and I've gotten a chance to get acquainted with what hard targets single 40ish girls can be. Dating sure seemed fun 20 years ago.
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