So happy together Posted July 20, 2013 Posted July 20, 2013 I want to add that my Bf feels very betrayed by his stbxw. He did for years. She pretended to be something she wasn't to catch him and then in to the marriage the real person she was came out and they had nothing in common. He felt he'd been duped. I don't mean she changed. I mean she lied in the beginning. "I love camping" "I love hiking" "I love travel" "I love concerts in the park" "I want six kids". "I like sex". One kid and no more, no sex for TWELVE years... he felt lied to for years and I think this cushioned his guilt at having an affair. He felt she'd lied for years. I don't know if this is the case with others but this was his experience. He agonized over hurting her, but he did not agonize one bit over finding happiness.
HopingAgain Posted July 20, 2013 Posted July 20, 2013 I get angry when I hear the above statements. Why do you assume that all spouses stay out of some sort of obligation? MOST of the time, we stay together because we're in love. I'm sure there are some who stay for some of the shallow reasons you've listed, but in MOST reconciliations, the MM/MW realizes at DDay that having an affair was not worth hurting the woman they love...their spouse. I'm sick to death of OW coming into infidelity and telling us how our spouses are only here with us because (insert inane reason). Maybe they are really in love with us. MAYBE it took a tragedy for them to realize what they've done. It would be ever so nice if OW would please stop coming into infidelity and blaming the victim in this mess. I did NOTHING to deserve this. It has broken my life in ways that you could never understand. I'm not bitter, I'm hurt and devastated...I do get angry when OW come into our safe place to let us know how horrid we are, yet there is a thread in OW about how BS's here are so mean and have made OW suicidal. It works both ways. Well said. I think its unfortunate how many OW drink the " he's just staying with wife out of obligation" koolaid. They are probably the competitive type that have to justify a reason as to why they "lost".
So happy together Posted July 20, 2013 Posted July 20, 2013 I get angry when I hear the above statements. Why do you assume that all spouses stay out of some sort of obligation? MOST of the time, we stay together because we're in love. I'm sure there are some who stay for some of the shallow reasons you've listed, but in MOST reconciliations, the MM/MW realizes at DDay that having an affair was not worth hurting the woman they love...their spouse. I'm sick to death of OW coming into infidelity and telling us how our spouses are only here with us because (insert inane reason). Maybe they are really in love with us. MAYBE it took a tragedy for them to realize what they've done. It would be ever so nice if OW would please stop coming into infidelity and blaming the victim in this mess. I did NOTHING to deserve this. It has broken my life in ways that you could never understand. I'm not bitter, I'm hurt and devastated...I do get angry when OW come into our safe place to let us know how horrid we are, yet there is a thread in OW about how BS's here are so mean and have made OW suicidal. It works both ways. I don't disagree with the fact that some stay with their WS because they are in love. I just have to question how in love the WS was when he/she cheated. It is clear that when there is infidelity the marriage is broken, whether before, or because of it. If a couple can happily reconcile I think it is a wonderful thing. I believe in love. But I do know that in my situation, if my boyfriend had stayed it would have been out of simple obligation. And the only reason his stbxw would have stayed it would have been for monetary reasons and the embarrassment of having to divorce. Don't you realize that I'm not cheering for the OW in your relationship? Far from it. If you choose to work it out, I think it is truly wonderful and shows that you both want to make it work. If you think for one second that I want your relationship to fail you are wrong. I don't. I believe in happiness. And I believe in love. And forgiveness. I know it sounds like I am assigning blame. I'm not. I'm simply showing the other side of the equation. You won't hear it, and that could very well be to your detriment. I wish you well.
HopingAgain Posted July 20, 2013 Posted July 20, 2013 If a person is not against affairs, they most certainly are for them! Indifference doesn't even come into play here. If an AP becomes a spouse to whoever they were cheating with, not only are they NOT going to want to be cheated on, they are not going to support their spouse if they do cheat! Its so hypocritical but 100% truthn And you will not find a person more outraged to be cheated on than a former affair partner. Because they are supposed to be the "true soulmate", and "the better choice". All of a sudden" the infidelity that they were once apart of" becomes intolerable. 1
So happy together Posted July 20, 2013 Posted July 20, 2013 If a person is not against affairs, they most certainly are for them! Indifference doesn't even come into play here. If an AP becomes a spouse to whoever they were cheating with, not only are they NOT going to want to be cheated on, they are not going to support their spouse if they do cheat! Its so hypocritical but 100% truthn And you will not find a person more outraged to be cheated on than a former affair partner. Because they are supposed to be the "true soulmate", and "the better choice". All of a sudden" the infidelity that they were once apart of" becomes intolerable. Anyone could, given the right circumstances, have an affair. I understand you want to hate me. If it makes you feel better, I certainly can't stop you. I'm not the enemy. Complacency in a relationship is. And in my R, I am definitely the better choice. Not because I am better than she is, just because we are better suited for one another.
sweet_pea Posted July 20, 2013 Posted July 20, 2013 (edited) I'm only going to address this one thing for now... I want to think about the things you've said. But. Here is the crux of it for me. It seems, in my opinion, that there is a big crush against the OM/OW for becoming involved in an A. We are villainised and made to feel like we are ugly human beings with no morals or values. At this same time, WS's are regularly taken back into a marriage which they broke vows to. Do not misunderstand, I am not excusing (or not excusing) anyone. I am just trying to figure out why it is that it seems to always be the OW/OM fault. I suppose because it is easier to hate us than to hate the person who betrayed BS. I'm telling you right now that I am an ethical person (yes, yes, I can literally HEAR the BS's eyes rolling), but I am honest in all of my business affairs. I am honest with my children. I am honest in my friendships and relationships. I have never cheated on a partner. And I never hid, kept secret, minimized my relationship with my boyfriend. I had nothing to hide. While I was involved with my boyfriend while he was married, I would never cheat on someone. I also would absolutely end a relationship if someone ever cheated on me. Does that make me a hypocrite? Perhaps. I just know that is not how I do things. I will also say that of course people get involved in affairs for a myriad of reasons. For me it was emotional and when we got physically involved, we were already in love and he was making plans to get out of the marriage. Not an excuse, just the way it was. And I also readily admit that I was not unhappy in the affair. We were working toward an end and I was okay with that because we were trying to do the right thing, even if backward. If he had not been actively moving forward to end the marriage I don't think I would have stayed in the affair. For us, it was a means to an end and because he had to figure out certain things (financial etc) before leaving, I was willing to wait, and because we were in love, we refused to put it aside for any longer. We'd waited 18 years. We were not willing to waste one more. I have rec'd so many PM's from BS's who rip me to shreds. Call me horrible names, make disgusting references. But they are still with the person who did that to them. I am not the problem in their marriage. Their WS is. And they are. OM/OW are symptom, not the problem. I understand why the BS would be indignant, refuse to listen to a OW, and that is their prerogative. But it seems to me they would do well to listen. To learn. I understand you are the other end of the spectrum in your relationship, too. I honestly don't really think your partner's problem is something you did... as he has an issue. But. If you stay, you have to be ready to deal with the hell. Personally? I think you deserve better. I would also like to point out that I have several friends who are involved in an affair and are perfectly happy keeping it that way. Because they love the WS/sex/attention, whatever, they choose to stay in that relationship because the positives outweigh the negatives. In some cases the BS knows, in some she doesn't. In some, she knows but turns a blind eye because she has her reasons for staying in a broken marriage and the ones I know have nothing to do with love or devotion. I get angry with BS's sometimes because when I hear their heartache, their misery, I just wonder why they would stay when the person they trust most (or so they say) loves/had sex with/betrayed you for someone else. Wouldn't it be easier to find someone with whom you have more in common? Who WANTS to be with you, not who is there out of obligation, money issues, guilt, whatever. And if they are a serial cheater... even more reason to run. They will NEVER be able to be faithful. If that is something that you (generally) can handle, then okay, but my guess is that most women can't handle it and it would be a life full of heartache. And if you have children, that is what they will learn. I don't judge affairs because I don't know the dynamics. I hear all the time BS's say "Nobody knows what goes on in the marriage but the two people in it". But MM/OW are not afforded the same dynamic. Trust me... my boyfriends stbxw will never, ever know how close we are. She will never understand why we really don't have a choice but to be together. He and I are simply meant to be together. I'm not a religious person but my bf is very, very catholic. He held a position in the church just below a priest. He has lost that position because of this affair. And the thing is, he is not sorry. It's worth it to him. He's given up a lot for us. But the things he gave up are so minimal compared to what we've gained. She'll never know. She'll spend the rest of her life being angry and hating him and me, and will never look into herself. What she really needs to do is find someone who wants to live the same life she does. And that is NOT my boyfriend. Or... I guess barring that, she could get a bunch of cats. Um... If you love someone, and they love you and both of you are willing to work it out, why wouldn't you stay? An affair doesn't 'delete' the things that a couple has in common, their history, their connections... the love might be depleted, but I'm sure you've read that even in the midst of so much pain, the BS still loves their WS (most of the time). It doesn't just go away. As for the "who WANTS to be with you" I've found that most of the time, when everything is out and in the open and the WS is faced with making the decision, it usually is them wanting to stay. They certainly aren't being forced to. If they were truly miserable, they can get a separation at least. Most times that I've seen or read, when push comes to shove, the WS wants to be home and with their BS and chooses so. Edited July 20, 2013 by sweet_pea 4
HopingAgain Posted July 20, 2013 Posted July 20, 2013 Anyone could, given the right circumstances, have an affair. I understand you want to hate me. If it makes you feel better, I certainly can't stop you. I'm not the enemy. Complacency in a relationship is. And in my R, I am definitely the better choice. Not because I am better than she is, just because we are better suited for one another. I don't want to hate you, nor do I consider you or any other OW here " the enemy". I have been where you are trying to go, and that's into a LTR and marriage with a former AP. I don't just talk the talk but walked the walk and lived the highs,, lows, and inevitable consequences. You feel that you are the better choice for your MM, you may be...But that still may not bev enough to keep you from experiencing the reality that unless a ex cheater really turns against the idea of infidelity and resolves their own reasons why it happened, its gonna eventually circle right back around.
So happy together Posted July 20, 2013 Posted July 20, 2013 Um... If you love someone, and they love you and both of you are willing to work it out, why wouldn't you stay? An affair doesn't 'delete' the things that a couple has in common, their history, their connections... the love might be depleted, but I'm sure you've read that even in the midst of so much pain, the BS still loves their WS (most of the time). It doesn't just go away. As for the "who WANTS to be with you" I've found that most of the time, when everything is out and in the open and the WS is faced with making the decision, it usually is them wanting to stay. They certainly aren't being forced to. If they were truly miserable, they can get a separation at least. Most times that I've seen or read, when push comes to shove, the WS wants to be home and with their BS and chooses so. I hope so. I truly hope that is the case. I have seen more than once people reconciling for reasons that have nothing to do with love. I wish it wasn't that way. Sometimes it is. I know for a fact that if my boyfriend offered to go back to his stbx, it would have nothing at all to do with love and she would happily welcome it, even though she doesn't love him either. At least not in a marital way. Perhaps in a 'I'm comfortable with this because it is all I know' kind of way. So I guess, if you reconcile, and I know a lot do, I hope that love is a big part of the equation. It really is too bad you all see me as 'your' enemy. I'm a happy person. I believe in living life to the fullest and being happy. I hope everyone else here finds happiness, too.
So happy together Posted July 20, 2013 Posted July 20, 2013 I don't want to hate you, nor do I consider you or any other OW here " the enemy". I have been where you are trying to go, and that's into a LTR and marriage with a former AP. I don't just talk the talk but walked the walk and lived the highs,, lows, and inevitable consequences. You feel that you are the better choice for your MM, you may be...But that still may not bev enough to keep you from experiencing the reality that unless a ex cheater really turns against the idea of infidelity and resolves their own reasons why it happened, its gonna eventually circle right back around. Well, my boyfriend is adamant that it was the wrong thing to do and says he would never choose it again. He's been in therapy etc. But for me, I choose not to judge.
sweet_pea Posted July 20, 2013 Posted July 20, 2013 I hope so. I truly hope that is the case. I have seen more than once people reconciling for reasons that have nothing to do with love. I wish it wasn't that way. Sometimes it is. I know for a fact that if my boyfriend offered to go back to his stbx, it would have nothing at all to do with love and she would happily welcome it, even though she doesn't love him either. At least not in a marital way. Perhaps in a 'I'm comfortable with this because it is all I know' kind of way. So I guess, if you reconcile, and I know a lot do, I hope that love is a big part of the equation. It really is too bad you all see me as 'your' enemy. I'm a happy person. I believe in living life to the fullest and being happy. I hope everyone else here finds happiness, too. You know, for someone who doesn't like assumptions.... You kind of have a lot of them. I believe that in most cases, couples reconcile because of love, and of course there are other things added in, however I see that love is a major one. Anyway, I don't know where you got the idea that I or anyone hates you... I don't hate anyone and I don't even know you. I don't agree with most things you say and assume, but hate is a little wild to think. 3
So happy together Posted July 20, 2013 Posted July 20, 2013 You know, for someone who doesn't like assumptions.... You kind of have a lot of them. I believe that in most cases, couples reconcile because of love, and of course there are other things added in, however I see that love is a major one. Anyway, I don't know where you got the idea that I or anyone hates you... I don't hate anyone and I don't even know you. I don't agree with most things you say and assume, but hate is a little wild to think. Hm. If you had heard some of the things I'd been told by people here, you'd understand why I felt that way. I actually wasn't assuming. I was just generalizing based on the people I know, both personally and here, and on my own experiences.
janedoe67 Posted July 20, 2013 Posted July 20, 2013 My question is this Does a person who knowingly invades a marriage even care? Do they have ANY guilt or even think there is ANYTHING wrong with boinking someone who is taken? I think I could feel better if they could at least admit there is a moral cognitive dissonance going on. 1
sweet_pea Posted July 20, 2013 Posted July 20, 2013 Hm. If you had heard some of the things I'd been told by people here, you'd understand why I felt that way. I actually wasn't assuming. I was just generalizing based on the people I know, both personally and here, and on my own experiences. You assume people here hate you, you assume that a WS stays not because they want to or love their spouse, but because of x, y, and z reasons, you assume this and that (not just on this thread but on others...) however, that's not the point of this thread. This is a forum, not real life, not a gossip site so I would just take what others claim with a grain of salt, I mean why would someone hate another they've never met? Lol I might not like what you say, but you? Nah Anyway.... What were we talking about again?
So happy together Posted July 20, 2013 Posted July 20, 2013 My question is this Does a person who knowingly invades a marriage even care? Do they have ANY guilt or even think there is ANYTHING wrong with boinking someone who is taken? I think I could feel better if they could at least admit there is a moral cognitive dissonance going on. I don't feel guilty. I don't feel I invaded the marriage. In my case it was over long before we met. So, you'll have to ask someone who was sleeping with a happily married person. I will say I never 'boinked' anyone. We have an active love life, but it's not about 'boinking', that's for sure. I am happy I was part of bringing him back to life. Reminding him that there is LIFE out there to be lived. That we don't have to settle for misery.
So happy together Posted July 20, 2013 Posted July 20, 2013 You assume people here hate you, you assume that a WS stays not because they want to or love their spouse, but because of x, y, and z reasons, you assume this and that (not just on this thread but on others...) however, that's not the point of this thread. This is a forum, not real life, not a gossip site so I would just take what others claim with a grain of salt, I mean why would someone hate another they've never met? Lol I might not like what you say, but you? Nah Anyway.... What were we talking about again? Lol. I don't take it personally. You can read what I post and respond or not. I'm not worried about it. I believe what I do for good reason. Have a good one.
HopingAgain Posted July 20, 2013 Posted July 20, 2013 (edited) I don't feel guilty. I don't feel I invaded the marriage. In my case it was over long before we met. So, you'll have to ask someone who was sleeping with a happily married person. I will say I never 'boinked' anyone. We have an active love life, but it's not about 'boinking', that's for sure. I am happy I was part of bringing him back to life. Reminding him that there is LIFE out there to be lived. That we don't have to settle for misery. So instead of choosing to let the experience of having an affair allow you to become a better person and to grow, you shrug your shoulders at it. Its usually the people that take this type of stance that get the hardest hit if/when it happens to them. Edited July 20, 2013 by HopingAgain
So happy together Posted July 20, 2013 Posted July 20, 2013 So instead of choosing to let the experience of having an affair allow you to become a better person and to grow, you shrug your shoulders at it. Its usually the people that take this type of stance that get the hardest hit if/when it happens to them. Never said this. I grow and learn all the time. I would certainly never be part of an A again but I wasn't the one having an affair. Neither will my boyfriend so I'm not worried about it happening to me.
janedoe67 Posted July 20, 2013 Posted July 20, 2013 The answer actually helps me to understand postings better. It makes sense that if someone has no respect for a marriage with problems and has no empathy for the BS that they are helping to hurt that their reaction to and posts regarding how to respond in an affair situation would be affected by that. Just like the bank robber analogy. If the getaway driver who knew a bank robbery was taking place can convince himself he isn't actually in any way responsible for the robbery or anything that happens during the robbery, then it's easier to be flippant about it. 2
So happy together Posted July 20, 2013 Posted July 20, 2013 The answer actually helps me to understand postings better. It makes sense that if someone has no respect for a marriage with problems and has no empathy for the BS that they are helping to hurt that their reaction to and posts regarding how to respond in an affair situation would be affected by that. Just like the bank robber analogy. If the getaway driver who knew a bank robbery was taking place can convince himself he isn't actually in any way responsible for the robbery or anything that happens during the robbery, then it's easier to be flippant about it. Well, if that is what you take from my post, nothing I can do about it. You hear what you want.
HopingAgain Posted July 20, 2013 Posted July 20, 2013 Never said this. I grow and learn all the time. I would certainly never be part of an A again but I wasn't the one having an affair. Neither will my boyfriend so I'm not worried about it happening to me. O.k., you weren't having an affair, just participating in one as a willing accomplice. And your confidence is admirable, especially considering the circumstances of how you came to be. Just remember that noone ever thinks it will happen to them.
janedoe67 Posted July 20, 2013 Posted July 20, 2013 I was kind of long winded, wasn't I. I was mainly expressing my reaction to the idea that someone would think they since they weren't the one married they did nothing wrong. I committed adultery. I slept with someone(s) who wasn't/weren't my spouse while married and while THEY were married. That was wrong. I cannot claim perfection in any shape or form. BUT I don't play parsing games to convince myself that there was nothing wrong with what I did. I remember hearing someone once say that it isn't making a bad choice that really defines us because we all make bad choices from time to time. It is how we respond to, take responsibility for, or deny our bad choices that defines us. I just like to call a spade a spade, even if I'm the one holding the spade. 4
HopingAgain Posted July 20, 2013 Posted July 20, 2013 I was kind of long winded, wasn't I. I was mainly expressing my reaction to the idea that someone would think they since they weren't the one married they did nothing wrong. I committed adultery. I slept with someone(s) who wasn't/weren't my spouse while married and while THEY were married. That was wrong. I cannot claim perfection in any shape or form. BUT I don't play parsing games to convince myself that there was nothing wrong with what I did. I remember hearing someone once say that it isn't making a bad choice that really defines us because we all make bad choices from time to time. It is how we respond to, take responsibility for, or deny our bad choices that defines us. I just like to call a spade a spade, even if I'm the one holding the spade. Personal responsibility, along with empathy...rocks! 5
So happy together Posted July 20, 2013 Posted July 20, 2013 I think it's a great idea. Whatever happened to public shaming....we should bring it back. Society has become so ill. It's indecent and immoral. People have no shame, no morals, no integrity. We have no respect for each other, no dignity, we have become a group of envious, entitled, selfish monsters that only hurt each other. For what? For our own happiness? well let me ask you all a silly question - Why is everyone so damn unhappy with themselves? unhappy with their lives? Dr.s hand out anti-depressants like candy, everyone is in therapy...why? You would think that since we are all out there doing what we want, screwing who we want, living like we want, doing whatever we need to do in order to make ourselves happy, including taking every happy pill on earth and talking our heads off in therapy and on forums, that we would be a euphoric nation of blissful people........and yet? People who have everything, money, love, good looks, famous...miserable, why? It just kills me that people don't realize this. They think their happiness is in someone else or out there somewhere to be found. The problem is that when they "find" it.....eludes them once again. And once again they must search for it...... sorry. I just wish people would wake up and see that they create their own prison of unhappiness. it's not marriage or their job or their spouse, it's them! and guess what? when they leave, they take their unhappiness with them. Yes it does! Except no one wants to take personal responsibility anymore. No way! Blame shift and make excuses! SoHappy, Your avatar speaks volumes. I hope you are proud that you won! Congrats honey. You got the douchebag MM to leave his wife. WOW! What a man, what a man!! Wow. So... you don't believe in antidepressants for those that need them? You think people should be unhappy? I definitely believe happiness is within ones self. But jobs, marriages, spouses play a part. I guess we could go back to the world of Victorian times... is that far enough back? When Opium was the drug of choice? Get real.
Author Betterthanthis13 Posted July 20, 2013 Author Posted July 20, 2013 Never said this. I grow and learn all the time. I would certainly never be part of an A again but I wasn't the one having an affair. Neither will my boyfriend so I'm not worried about it happening to me. This is why I am perplexed. If neither of you would ever participate in an affair again, there must be some reason for that decision. I suspect it is because neither of you truly feel good about him breaking his marriage vows, (despite the awful circumstances at the time) and should either of you be faced with a similar situation in the future, would make a different decision for your own sake. Because not participating in infidelity would be the right thing to do, and you have learned from the past. Nothing to do with BS's character or any other irrelevant information. Is that wrong?
So happy together Posted July 20, 2013 Posted July 20, 2013 I was asking why people are so unhappy in this day and age?? I don't care if people take anti-depressants, even if they don't need them. Did you actually read my post? Jobs and spouses don't play that big of a part, not really. Lmao! No, you would of been shunned along with your MM if we went back that far. Maybe even hung in the town square! Absolutely not true. Especially if I was from an affluent family... happened all the time. ALL THE TIME. Nothing has changed as far as affairs go, it's simply that we see it more because we can see what happens around the world in real time. And yes, a perfectly happy person can be brought down by a situation. It happens all the time. Stress, family, kids, etc. All of it. I'm not saying it is an excuse for an affair, I'm simply saying that a happy person can be pulled down.
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