Please help: Long post, but I could really use some third party opinions!

[whatnext]

Hello, I'm new to the forum, and really need some opinions on what to do. This is a VERY lengthy post, but I'd ask you to read through it and tell me what your take is. Is Steve worrying about nothing, or is Julie being unfair? Should Steve just move on?

 

A guy, (Steve), is unhappily married with several near-divorces and a long separation in his past, and meets a girl at work, (Julie), and begins to really fall in love with her, at a time when he's least looking for it. He knows she feels the same. She's beautiful, funny, smart, and just wonderful to be around. He literally comes to work every day excited to see her. But, Julie has a boyfriend, and Steve is still married and living at home, and he really, really doesn't want to be having these feelings. But, months go by, and finally, in July, after 6 months of becoming best of friends, they break down and tell each other what they both always knew. The timing is good, because Julie had recently broken up with her boyfriend, and she and Steve begin the most passionate, exciting relationship he's ever had.

 

Shortly thereafter, Julie gets back together with her old boyfriend, but she's with Steve nearly all the time, and he knows she won't stay with the old boyfriend for long. Cleary, she got back together with him so she wouldn't feel so vulnerable. Steve knows how that must feel, so wastes no time telling his wife that he's unhappy and that they need to make a change. She's not surprised, and they agree they need to separate again. He moves into the basement of his house, where he is incredibly uncomfortable and begins having nightmares nearly every night, but it allows him to talk to Julie every night before he goes to bed, and it's worth it. Not only is Julie beautiful, but she's incredibly fun to talk to, and they can talk endlessly without running out of interesting things to say.

 

Shortly after they start seeing each other, he plans a three-day trip for them to Boston so they can just be alone together without feeling like they're sneaking around. It's a wonderful trip, and after a lot of discussion they decide that they are definitely going to be together and make it work. She continues to see her boyfriend. The old boyfriend suspects something is up, either with Steve or with another of her old boyfriends, Juan, but she tells the old boyfriend it's all in his head and he has nothing to worry about. Steve hears all this, and understands she's vulnerable, and why she's staying with the old boyfriend. He also understands it's very hard for her to keep this secret, because, as she tells him, she's just not good at lying.

 

Over the first couple of months together they are blissfully happy. She ends things with her boyfriend again and they're now on a great track. He learns, though, that she has had a steady series of intimate relationships lasting about 3-6 months each, in completely uninterrupted succession, since she was 14. This freaks Steve out, and he thinks, "eesh, what have I done. The odds aren't exactly in my favor here, are they?" Instead of hearing his fair concerns, she reacts and basically says "f-you, don't judge me."

 

They plan a trip to Maine, again to get away, and have a wonderful time. He's hopelessly in love. He's very, very uncomfortable with her pattern of love-em and leave-em, but god, she's just so wonderful that he tries to ignore it and believe it will be different with him.

 

Shortly after they return from Maine, she tells him that her old boyfriend has invited her on a week-long cruise to Bermuda, and that's she's agreed to go because she wants to use that time to talk through things with him and really gain the closure that doesn't feel like they've had. He's not too happy about it, and says "geez, can't you see the two of you will wind up together again? And how are you going to sleep in the same cabin every night, on a cruise ship, in one of the most romantic places on earth, without getting together?" She says, "Look, I really doubt I'll sleep with him. You have nothing to worry about" Then, the night before she leaves for some bizarre reason she decides to brag to him about the fact that she once had a threesome in high school. He's like "damn, why did you tell me that - now I can't get this freakin image of you out of my head." She leaves for the cruise, and Steve is basically out of his mind.

 

Although more miserable and upset than he's ever been in his life, he also realizes that he can't really expect her to fully commit while he's still living at home, so he tells his wife he wants to move out and get a divorce. The week Julie is gone nearly kills him with anxiety, and he finally goes to the doctor to get a prescription to help him. He's not sleeping, not eating, and cannot even begin to concentrate. The prescription makes it worse initially, but he hangs with it.

 

Julie returns, finally, and tells him it's truly over with the old boyfriend, and they'll never be together again, and that he has nothing to worry about. She tells him nothing happened between them on the cruise, which of course he knows is not true, and tries to just block it out of his mind as best he can.

 

They continue to be happy and grow even closer, on every level, and then they get the news that the old boyfriend has cancer. Steve has a close friend who died from the same type of cancer, and feels badly for the old boyfriend and his family. He also realizes this is going to be hard for Julie. And, not surprisingly, she agrees to see the old boyfriend for dinner. Steve can see how nervous and excited she is before the dinner, and he tells her so. She tells Steve, "you're getting worried about nothing - you have nothing to worry about." But, sure enough, she winds up with the boyfriend again that night. The new guy loses his mind over this, but, deep down, he understands, and realizes he needs to be strong and shouldn't say anything. But, he just wishes she'd have had the sense to see it coming, and not gotten in the car alone with him that night. He knows it was a bad situation she put herself in, and that he wouldn't have gotten in a car in the same situation . . . but, he understands and tries his hardest to put it out of his mind. It's not easy, but he knows he's wrong. He feels like he is going to die from anxiety nearly every day, all day. His world is on fire all around him, and he feels like a cat in a burning tree. He knows he's not rational right now, and it scares him, so he just accepts that it was all his fault, that everything so far was HIS problem, and tries to move on.

 

Thing is, though, also during that time she keeps wanting to go do stuff with other guys - Christmas shopping, dinner, etc. Steve says "geez, don't you think maybe this is why your relationships fail?" She basically says "f-you. Why does everyone always try to change me? Come on, I've changed a lot from who I used to be, and you have nothing to worry about" Odds are really looking worse for Steve, and he's well aware of it, but they can't seem to tallk about it.

 

But, Steve loves this girl more and more all the time. She makes him see his life in a whole new light, and remember dreams and feelings he once had that have been long put to sleep. He's crazy about this girl and the person he is when he's with her.

 

That Christmas break he moves out into an apartment she helped him find, and they have a wonderful week together, literally making love every waking second, and talking about everything under the sun. But, in January, out of the blue, she begins acting strangely and pulling away from him. He wants to know whats wrong, but that just leads to fights and she won't tell him. She says "You have nothing to worry about!" Finally, near the end of the month, he can't take it anymore, and does something stupid and reads her email, hoping to find some clue as to why she's acting so distant. There he finds a series of emails between her and the old boyfriend, making plans to go out, and talking about getting back together. In one, the old boyfriend calls her "his little juicemaker." Steve just about has a coronary and wishes he'd never read any of it, feeling like he walked into a room he wasn't supposed to be in, and saw something horrible. He tells her about a little of it, and she just denies it and goes ballistic.

 

They don't get along very well for the next few weeks. In an effort to save it, he plans a huge Valentine's evening, and spends a fortune decorating. After that evening, she tells him how much she loves him and that's she's sorry for everything, and for pushing him away. He then leaves for a week-long trip out of the country, during which she calls and IMs him constantly, but he doesn't get them because he's in Canada. He gets something like 20 messages on his phone when he crosses the border, and can wait to see her. He gets finally gets back on Friday, and they have a wonderful night together.

 

Saturday night she goes to a bar with a friend, and Sunday acts totally different, as if Valentine's day, the week of missing each other, and the Friday night never happend. And, after trying to understand and fighting about it for two days, she tells him she doesn't love him any more. They get back together again near the end of the week, but things are weird. That next Friday night she tells him she doesn't want to do anything, and is going back to the same bar with her friend again. He misses her so much, and sees a movie on TV that reminds him of her. He drives to the bar to see her, stupidly, and walks in and sees her kissing and grinding on some guy right in the middle of the place. His heart explodes. The next day she denies it until he tells her he was there. Instead of apologizing or explaining, she goes ballistic and starts making accusations at HIM. It's his fault.

 

She continues to date this new guy for nearly a month, at times hiding it and other times being honest, and Steve finally, truly gives up, and starts looking around at other people. There is another girl he really likes that he's met through work, and they sort of start heading down the dating road, but he just can't make himself feel anything for her. Plus, she lives in another stae, and they can only see each other when she visits for work, about twice a month. When Julie finds out about this other girl, she again goes ballistic and tells him she wants to "put her fist through his f-ing face." She says later she wasn't jealous, just didn't think it was fair. Yeah, right.

 

Shortly after that, Julie tells Steve it's over with Bar Guy and that she wants to be with him becasue she loves him. She stays at Steve's three nights in a row, telling him how happy she is that everything is behind them, and that she loves him. Oddly, she disappears that Friday night, all night, after spending the past three nights with Steve. She tells him a string of lies, constantly changing, about where she was and what she was doing. She's incredibly hostile, and keeps telling him it's all in his head and he has "nothing to worry about." Finally, she admits that she was with Bar Guy, went out and got drunk with him, and slept on his couch. Steve knows there's more to the story, but is tired of all her hostility when he tries to find out more and finally gives up, but deep down has a ton of resentment for this and everything else.

 

Okay, so now she has a major revelation, tells him how much she loves him, and that she's truly changed and will never hide anything from him again. She admits her mistakes, but says that now, honestly, he has nothing to worry about. And, for the next few months, he doesn't, and things are absolutely perfect. But, near the end of that second summer together, she starts acting weird again. She's seeing and talking to Cruise Guy a lot, but says that has nothing to with it, and that Steve "has nothing to worry about." They fight a lot and break up a lot, and she's never the same one day to the next, but Steve just finally gives up and goes along with it, deciding in his mind that he just doesn't care any more. About this time, Julie starts doing stuff and talking with Juan fairly often around this time, and Steve just decides to go along with that, too. To keep things in balance, he starts doing stuff with an old female friend of his too. They talk about the possibility of a relationship, but his heart is with Julie so it doesn't go anywhere. Then, out of the blue, Julie is miraculously back on board with things, and they make plans to run a marathon together the following January, which sounds great. They're basically happy, although Julie continues to kind of come in-and-out of the relationship constantly. But, Steve tries his best to ignore all that and just be, deciding that whatever happens, happens, and he's not going to worry about it.

 

January comes and goes, and the marathon is great and they're happy. Then, suddenly, Juan is back in the picture, and Julie seems to be talking about him quite a bit. Now, Steve suspects Julie was more involved with Juan before he started dating her than she admits, and that he was in fact the real problem in her relationship with Cruise Guy, and in most of her other relationships as well.

 

But, she has always said that they were only friends since she was 15, with the exception of one night when Juan kissed her in the mall, right as one of their coworkers was walking by. He's always known that was BS, but, he'd been more concerned about the old boyfriend and Bar Guy all this time, and Juan was just kind of on the horizon, like several other guys. Now, she seems to be talking to him all the time, and they go out periodically as well. One night they go out for dinner and drinks, and she doesn't call Steve until around midnight. He doesn't say a word about it, because he knows it's just an invitation for a fight, and she'll just tell him he has nothing to worry about.

 

They continue to be happy, and Steve would do just about anything for her. But, she continues to carry on her relationship with Juan, and Steve can't help but wonder about it and question it more, inside. Also in this time, they begin talking about moving together out of state for a job transfer, which is a tough decision for both of them. Steve realizes that he wants that more than anythying, but that to work he's going to have to have some answers to the questions that have been nagging him for so long. What happened on the cruise? What happened with Cruise Guy in the months and years since then? Who, exactly, is Juan, and what was their relationship like before she started dating Steve? Why, after all this time, hasn't he met him, if he's just a "friend?" And for gods' sake, what, exactly, happened with Bar Guy the night she disappeared?

 

Not really to his surprise, Steve learned that she had lied about literally all of it. Juan wasn't just a friend, but someone she had been sleeping with on and off her whole life. (Now, though, they were just friends). And things had kind of come and gone with the old (cruise) boyfriend since they'd allegedly broken things off for good, but only because she felt sorry for him. And, yes, she had gone out with Bar Guy that night and in fact slept in his bed with him in bed that night, but only because the felt bad for HIM, too. Very altruistic this girl. And besides, nothing happened, etc. etc. "Steve, understand, I really have changed now, and from now on I'll always be honest, and you have nothing to worry about." He said, "you know, of course, that you can't see Juan any more" and she said "yeah, I know." She had told him many times in the past that she knew she had to let go of that relationship, and even HAD at one point when she'd been with Billy for 6 months and was so in love and happy. She'd said that eventually the relationship would just fade, so Steve naively hoped she meant it this time.

 

Now, knowing how badly he wanted things to work with Julie, Steve also knew that, for things to work, he had to really know that she was now finally telling him the whole truth of the mess of dark secrets that had been their past. So, he reads her email again, not really knowing what he expected to find, and for the second time only in their relationship. In that he found the old emails from the cruise boyfriend, saved in a special file, and it broke his heart all over again. But, more interestingly, he found that earlier that year, at a time when they'd allegedly been as happy as could be and she'd vowed she'd never make those mistakes again, she'd accepted and follow through on an invitation to meet a guy she'd met through work for coffee, in a clear overture towards starting a relationship. She had even once told Steve the guy was asking her out, but that she knew now that she was happy and didn't want to, and that it felt good. He asked her about it and of course she lied. Steve had plenty to worry about. It seemed pretty unlikely that she had only omitted this one little "insignificant fact."

 

They moved anyway, because they really did have a good thing, with the glaring exception of all the lies and other guys. Julie said "think of all the BS I have to put up with you and your f-ing life." He tried to explain that, unfortunately, honesty and fidelity was the largest stone in the foundation of a relationship, and that overlooking this stuff was, to a guy, like a girl saying "he's wonderful, except that he beats me when he drinks." She, on the other hand, believed in blind faith and trust, regardless of whether or not it was earned.

 

One of their first nights in their new town, Julie got a phone call from a guy back home at 1:30 in the morning, begging her to see him. She agreed to, right there in front of Steve. WTF? Of course, "don't worry Steve, you have nothing to worry about. I just wanted to get him off the phone. God, why don't you trust me."

 

Then she went home to visit her family, and told him that she planned to see Juan while she was there, but that Steve had nothing to worry about, because they were only friends now, for real this time. Julie's mom made plans for her to spend the night with Juan in the city, but Julie said no, and went to dinner with him instead. He was, after all, one of the most special people in her life, her oldest, most valued relationship, and part of her family. And, in spite of everything, ALL that had happened, and all the times she'd been with him in the past, she was different now, and Steve had nothing to worry about.

 

Steve knows Julie really loves him, but suspects she has some genuine problem closing doors on other relationships. Also, she seems to him to fool herself into thinking that she can be close to other guys without it leading to physical intimacy, which is something Steve doesn't believe at all.

 

What do you think, and what should Steve do?

[bluetuesday]

hi steve

 

i skimmed some of your post because it was just too damned long. sorry man but i got the main points.

 

she lied, she cheated, she lied some more, she said she loves you, she left you, she cheated some more, she lied, she came back, she lied, she promised this time she was really telling the truth, she cheated and she lied again.

 

i may have got the order a bit wrong.

 

what is it you're unclear on?

 

i don't care how hot she is, she's got all the emotional stability of zelda fitzgerald. she's nuts. and she doesn't love you. you don't treat a mangy dog in the street like she's treated you.

 

get out now or she'll have your nads on a plate for ever.

[Moose]

I agree with blue.

 

Let me tell you something. The reason you feel this way towards her is because you want to conquer this beast and keep it all to yourself. History shows that this just isn't going to happen!! You want to be the center of her desire, it's not going to happen.

 

I can't believe you could be so gullable and forgive her all these times. Letting her go on a cruise with her ex? I would've told her she's either with me or she's not. If she goes on that cruise, I'm not going to be here when you get back. I actually would've told her to get lost the first time she pulled this kind of crap on me so the cruise would've never been an issue.

 

This chick needs help, mentally. She used you and manipulated you for her own benefit. I'm sorry that you have to read me putting down the one that you're so fond about, but wake the heck up man! You don't deserve this crap....get out now! Tell her that you're through. Tell her that you're sick of hearing the phrase, "you don't have anything to worry about".....then she goes out and screws her ex boyfriends or whomever is convienient at the time.

 

I know it's hard to let go, you want her exclusivley to yourself, but you have to wake up and see that it's just not possible for her to commit. She's got problems being exclusive with just one person. Myabe in the future when she's ready to stop this sleeping around she'll think of you and realize how she screwed up! And hopefully, and it's my sincere wish that you will already be involved with someone who truly loves you.

 

Good Luck

Kick her arse out.

Sincerely,

Moose

[Merin]

Crap! Sorry Steve, I had to skip over some of your post as well... but got the jest of things...

 

My take.. Julie doesn't want to let go of ANY of her past relationships and none of them (including the one she's in with you) ever seem to be really over.

 

Julie seems to like the guys shes been with to continue to do for her, take her places, spend their cash on her.. and she seems to feel justified in sleeping with them.

 

Julie doesn't want to be judged, but seems to have no conscience or problem in judging other people.

 

Steve needs to give Julie the boot and mean it before he becomes just like Juan or who ever else Julie string along... clearly it's a vicious circle for Julie and the game never ends for her until a player drops out.

 

Good Luck Steve

[Artifact]

Yikes, I read (almost) the whole thing. I think I lost an hour of my work day!

 

To make a long story short, it's time to move on, buddy. She is walking all over you, all over Cruise Guy, all over Juan, and all over Bar Guy. And I think you'd be lucky if that's a complete list...

 

I know emotions can tug at you HARD, but think with your head for a minute. You already know she is not going to change and that you cannot function with a woman like that in your life. She's destroying all things about you that make you a man!

 

I think a consensus has been reached.

 

Find someone else. OR better yet, be alone for a while.

[whatnext]

That WAS a long sucker, wasn't it? It was actually a cut and paste from an email I sent her trying to see things objectively. Didn't realize just HOW long until I saw it there just now.

 

Part of it is that there's of course more to every story. I didn't post it initially because I wanted to hear reactions just to those facts. Here's the rest.

 

When she went on the cruise, she and I were still running around as co-workers having a secret affair while I was still living at home with my wife, albeit in separate bedrooms, but she had every reason to worry about becoming a cliche. Now, our marriage had failed long before and we both wanted out, but, she didn't necessarily know that - only what I told her, and for the first good 6 months she really deep down didn't want to be in the relationship, I don't believe.

 

Also, when she went out with the cancer boyfriend (she only kissed him, nothing more), I went basically nuts and ran through a blue streak of obsenities calling her every name in the book, punched a wall, etc. I had gotten hell drunk that night (not a typical thing for me to do, and not smart while I was taking the medication) worrying about it, and basically went out of my mind for the next twelve hours. That was the only time she ever "did anything" with him - the rest was just a lot of talking about how she missed him, and a couple of lunches with him.

 

When she met the kid in the bar, we had broken up several times because I wasn't sure I was doing the right thing, I was rarely in the same mood one day to the next, and usually I was the one breaking things off and begging her to come back. She said she never did more than kiss that kid either, which I truly believe.

 

So, that leaves her need to keep her old boyfriends in her life, especially this Juan character. And I honestly don't for the life of me know whether it's okay or not. It's just that I know that in the past (before me) she's wound up getting back together with him a number of times, usually only for a short while, but usually while she was with someone else. And the point I'm trying to make to her is that it's kind of a recipe for disaster, no matter how good her intentions are, and that she just shouldn't keep him in her life any more. She has said that she won't do things alone with him (she went to dinner the other night with his family, and called me before and after she went). But, considering the fact that she has a history of getting involved when she doesn't actually mean to (or believes she won't) and this mystery date at the cofffee shop which we have no explanation for, and I honestly don't know whether I'm being unfair and overbearing, or whether it's right to not trust her?

 

I should also add that when we started dating she had just graduated from college, and I was 10 years older and with a much different perspective on what makes relationships work or fail.

 

Okay, with all that additional info, now what do you think? Who's wrong here, me or her?

[Devildog]

I would still say you are a fool for continuing this for so long. She has treated you like crap and has been unfaithful and dishonest with you throughout your entire relationship. She needs psychological help and you need to pick up the pieces of your life and move on.

[FreeMe]

They're both liars and cheaters - he was married and living with his wife and cheated on her and she cheats and lies regularly.

 

I had to reread this, but STEVE, the cheater "....tried to explain that, unfortunately, honesty and fidelity was the largest stone in the foundation of a relationship"

 

I don't know - I think they may be perfect for each other.

[Artifact]

It doesn't matter who was right or wrong. (But for the record you were both wrong.)

 

Just move on.

[goodnbad]

She is a user, plain and simple.

 

As long as she knows you will be there for her, she will continue to reel you in and cast you out as needed. You are her sugar daddy.

 

Cut your losses and find someone who will be loyal to you and you alone. You deserve better.

 

Good luck!

 

goodnbad