Men taking control...

[questionlife]

I'm just starting to date again, and I hear lots of women say they miss the 'good old days' when real men took control, decided what to do, etc. but on the other hand, I know they cannot really mean the 'gold old days' where men controlled the money, work and pretty much everything else in their lives...

 

So what do men do now?

 

If I tell I date to "get dressed, I'm taking you out to dinner" she'd love it!

 

If I tell her to "get undressed, I'm coming over for sex" she'd (probably) hate it!

 

So, how are we supposed to 'take control' if women really only want to let us be in control if it suits them and is something they already want to do anyway, but they don't really want us to be in control to do what we might want to do...

Edited July 1, 2013 by questionlife
Typo

[MrCastle]

I don't know. I don't think I've had a situation like that.

 

I pick my spots. There are times where I exercise control and dominance and they seem to respond well to it.

 

You can be dominant and still playful. Suave like, you know?

 

If I said "take your clothes off! :mad:" like it was a demand, I could see her saying "uh...no"

 

But if we're making out, and I give her a playful slap on the butt and say "heh, let's play" -- this is enough of a signal for her to get the message. It's still me initiating sex and setting the frame, but in a way that is not domineering or condescending. I'm not belittling her.

[SJC2008]

I think the phrases "dominant" and "take charge" are minsunderstood by many men and we think it means we have to be some bad ass and call the shots 100% of the time. Taking the lead isn't about being some hardass it's about taking the dam lead. Plan a date, say "let's meet at x time by x landmark, see you there", simple as that.

[JustAReformedGirl]

I'm just starting to date again, and I hear lots of women say they miss the 'good old days' when real men took control, decided what to do, etc. but on the other hand, I know they cannot really mean the 'gold old days' where men controlled the money, work and pretty much everything else in their lives...

 

So what do men do now?

 

If I tell I date to "get dressed, I'm taking you out to dinner" she'd love it!

 

If I tell her to "get undressed, I'm coming over for sex" she'd (probably) hate it!

 

So, how are we supposed to 'take control' if women really only want to let us be in control if it suits them and is something they already want to do anyway, but they don't really want us to be in control to do what we might want to do...

 

This is actually a fair question. I guess it depends on which context they mean it in. I certainly don't want a man (or anyone, for that matter) controlling my every step.

 

In the bedroom though, sometimes having ones' partner in control can be a bit of a turn on. Doesn't mean I'd go all submissive...I think I just kind of enjoy the fight.

 

Outside of the bedroom, they could mean that they like a guy who is assertive, who knows what he wants, and takes control of his own life...not necessarily of them. In regards to dating, they want a man who can make up his own mind about things, instead of being indifferent or insecure.

 

I'm just guessing; I can hardly speak for the whole female populace.

[Lani]

This is actually a fair question. I guess it depends on which context they mean it in. I certainly don't want a man (or anyone, for that matter) controlling my every step.

 

In the bedroom though, sometimes having ones' partner in control can be a bit of a turn on. Doesn't mean I'd go all submissive...I think I just kind of enjoy the fight.

 

Outside of the bedroom, they could mean that they like a guy who is assertive, who knows what he wants, and takes control of his own life...not necessarily of them. In regards to dating, they want a man who can make up his own mind about things, instead of being indifferent or insecure.

 

I'm just guessing; I can hardly speak for the whole female populace.

 

I agree with this.

 

We want someone who knows what he wants and will take the steps to get it. If you want to see us, then make sure you see us. Make the plans, tell us what is going on and take control of that situation.

 

It's more about confidence and strength of character than dominance. We want you to have the confidence in yourself that you can get us, because if you don't have it, why should we?

 

Perfect timing for this thread. I just got rid of a guy who wouldn't make plans for a date, just pussied around being lame after taking too long to ask me out.

[questionlife]

Thank you for the very insightful replies everyone...

 

Now, you have me wondering what has caused this 'indecisiveness' recently in men?

Edited July 1, 2013 by questionlife
wrong word...

[MrCastle]

Thank you for the very insightful replies everyone...

 

Now, you have me wondering what has caused this 'indecisiveness' recently in men?

 

I want to answer this so bad but I will get sniped from both sexes. Sorry.

[questionlife]

I want to answer this so bad but I will get sniped from both sexes. Sorry.

 

Lol! Does your answer mention something else being 'snipped'?

[MrCastle]

Lol! Does your answer mention something else being 'snipped'?

 

Lol actually yeah! The media's pussification of men is certainly part of it, but there is more to it and I'm trying not to step on toes here...

[MrCastle]

That's a whole 'nother topic in itself but many would argue that it's a consequence of a lot of Western society practcally demonizing anything that even resembled classic masculinity and decisiveness being taken by some to mean a refusal to to consider the wants, needs or thoughts of other people on a consistent basis. I don't think this however, but many do.

 

I would very much like to make out with you on the ground.

 

That post is certainly a huge part of what I was planning on saying.

[BeholdtheMan]

Women just want confident decisive men...not timid waffling boys

 

Leading a good life is an exercise in the art of balance. Dominance tempered by a degree of respect and playfulness is attractive in a man. Too much dominance makes Jack an overbearing arse

[ChessPieceFace]

I'm in control.

 

I'm single.

[ThaWholigan]

That's a whole 'nother topic in itself but many would argue that it's a consequence of a lot of Western society practcally demonizing anything that even resembled classic masculinity and decisiveness being taken by some to mean a refusal to to consider the wants, needs or thoughts of other people on a consistent basis. I don't think this however, but many do.

Traits that I would argue are now ironically celebrated in women more often. This could be good or bad.

 

Generally, I think BeholdTheMan had a good point mentioning balance. A man who achieves his natural balance will find it easier to take control even if he's naturally passive.

[MrCastle]

Okay I'm gonna bite. I'm going to be as careful with my words as I can be.

 

Two things, in my opinion, are the reason for the indecisiveness of men.

 

Extreme feminism, and the media's attack on the heterosexual man.

 

Extreme Feminism: I don't think anyone would disagree that feminism needed to happen. Civil rights are a big deal. We are all human beings. We deserve equal rights. So as far as getting women the right to vote, and equal pay in the work place, and other social changes like that -- yes. Kudos to the brave women who fought tirelessly for those things, as it needed to happen. But, with everything, extremists of any kind can spoil a good thing.

 

Look at the civil rights movement for African Americans. You had your Dr. King, who was fighting for equal rights for all. Then you had harder, more militant movements like Malcolm X and the Black Panthers.

 

There is a difference between wanting everyone to be equal, and killing white people/attacking white people to even the score. That's just fighting racism with racism. What you need is a Dr. King, someone who was only trying to put blacks on an equal footing as whites. Not try to overthrow whites and reign supreme as a dominant race.

 

So, there are two types of feminism. The open minded, fair women who just want equal treatment to men, and the misandrists. The bitter ones who wanted men to pay for their unfair treatment of women. You can't fight misogyny with misandry. Two wrongs don't make a right.

 

What happened as a result, in addition to the much needed and long awaited voting and equal pay acts -- are dynamic changes to the dating world.

 

Suddenly now you have women saying "Hey don't pull my chair out for me! What do you think, I'm not capable of doing it myself?! I'm a woman!"

 

You have men now, not sure when to be dominant and when to let her take the lead. Especially since not every woman feels the same. Some women want to be totally in charge, others want the old system of dating where the man was the lead in everything, and then you have those that are in between.

 

Well, this confuses men as a whole, because they do not want to come across as creepy, or perverted, or overbearing, or overly macho, etc.

 

So now you have men like "Well, should I call her first? What if she is one of those chicks who likes to initiate convo first? Should I wait for her? Do I ask her if she wants to have sex or will I seem like a pervert? Will she tell me outright when she wants it? What happens if I smack her butt in bed, will she be offended? Is that misogynistic?

 

The Media's Destruction Of The Modern Heterosexual Man: I actually did a report on this for my Problems In Media class. Take a look at how most men are represented in today's television and movies.

 

-the virgin who doesn't know how to talk to women (big bang theory, among others)

 

-the macho man who doesn't have a brain, who's wife is the brains of the household (home improvement)

 

-the slacker who is only interested in sports and sex (everybody loves raymond, king of queens, many others)

 

Where is the suave, dominant, confident, interesting man? Not the horny married guy who has to beg his wife for sex, who can only get it by doing things like doing dishes first, or maybe even hatching schemes to get her to sleep with him. Or maybe he finds ways to avoid spending time with his children, but alas, his scheme is always thwarted by his much smarter wife.

 

Where are the role models we as men can look up to?

 

There was an article published by CNN titled "Why Are Men So Stupid?" -- it was about the Tiger Woods and John Edwards of the world who have been caught in public affairs. If I wrote an article titled "Why Are Women So Stupid?" -- I would have to release a public apology and clean out my desk.

 

In today's media world -- ethnicities are off limits, women are off limits, the disabled are off limits, religions are off limits, homosexuals and transgendered are off limits -- but the straight man? Screw it! Make him an idiot, make him a nerdy virgin, make him a slacker, make him a sex starved lunatic. It's all good.

 

Of course, men cannot complain about it because then they look like a whiney bitch. So they just have to sort of grin and laugh it off even though everywhere you turn in the media is another slap in the face to the straight man.

 

Despite all of this -- the man is still largely expected to be the provider, leader, and protector. He is supposed to still live up to his stereotype of being stoic and macho.

 

How many men who wear their emotions on their sleeve get laid? None. Most of them get friend zoned. I have had more than one woman tell me "He's cute but he's such a pussy! He is TOO nice! That's why I can't date him!"

 

But where in the media do we see James Dean, Clint Eastwood, other popular male, macho figures that defined classic masculinity.

 

You don't.

 

You see the married guy who hides the cable bill from his wife because he ordered porn.

Edited July 1, 2013 by MrCastle

[Woggle]

Okay I'm gonna bite. I'm going to be as careful with my words as I can be.

 

Two things, in my opinion, are the reason for the indecisiveness of men.

 

Extreme feminism, and the media's attack on the heterosexual man.

 

Extreme Feminism: I don't think anyone would disagree that feminism needed to happen. Civil rights are a big deal. We are all human beings. We deserve equal rights. So as far as getting women the right to vote, and equal pay in the work place, and other social changes like that -- yes. Kudos to the brave women who fought tirelessly for those things, as it needed to happen. But, with everything, extremists of any kind can spoil a good thing.

 

Look at the civil rights movement for African Americans. You had your Dr. King, who was fighting for equal rights for all. Then you had harder, more militant movements like Malcolm X and the Black Panthers.

 

There is a difference between wanting everyone to be equal, and killing white people/attacking white people to even the score. That's just fighting racism with racism. What you need is a Dr. King, someone who was only trying to put blacks on an equal footing as whites. Not try to overthrow whites and reign supreme as a dominant race.

 

So, there are two types of feminism. The open minded, fair women who just want equal treatment to men, and the misandrists. The bitter ones who wanted men to pay for their unfair treatment of women. You can't fight misogyny with misandry. Two wrongs don't make a right.

 

What happened as a result, in addition to the much needed and long awaited voting and equal pay acts -- are dynamic changes to the dating world.

 

Suddenly now you have women saying "Hey don't pull my chair out for me! What do you think, I'm not capable of doing it myself?! I'm a woman!"

 

You have men now, not sure when to be dominant and when to let her take the lead. Especially since not every woman feels the same. Some women want to be totally in charge, others want the old system of dating where the man was the lead in everything, and then you have those that are in between.

 

Well, this confuses men as a whole, because they do not want to come across as creepy, or perverted, or overbearing, or overly macho, etc.

 

So now you have men like "Well, should I call her first? What if she is one of those chicks who likes to initiate convo first? Should I wait for her? Do I ask her if she wants to have sex or will I seem like a pervert? Will she tell me outright when she wants it? What happens if I smack her butt in bed, will she be offended? Is that misogynistic?

 

The Media's Destruction Of The Modern Heterosexual Man: I actually did a report on this for my Problems In Media class. Take a look at how most men are represented in today's television and movies.

 

-the virgin who doesn't know how to talk to women (big bang theory, among others)

 

-the macho man who doesn't have a brain, who's wife is the brains of the household (home improvement)

 

-the slacker who is only interested in sports and sex (everybody loves raymond, king of queens, many others)

 

Where is the suave, dominant, confident, interesting man? Not the horny married guy who has to beg his wife for sex, who can only get it by doing things like doing dishes first, or maybe even hatching schemes to get her to sleep with him. Or maybe he finds ways to avoid spending time with his children, but alas, his scheme is always thwarted by his much smarter wife.

 

Where are the role models we as men can look up to?

 

There was an article published by CNN titled "Why Are Men So Stupid?" -- it was about the Tiger Woods and John Edwards of the world who have been caught in public affairs. If I wrote an article titled "Why Are Women So Stupid?" -- I would have to release a public apology and clean out my desk.

 

In today's media world -- ethnicities are off limits, women are off limits, the disabled are off limits, religions are off limits, homosexuals and transgendered are off limits -- but the straight man? Screw it! Make him an idiot, make him a nerdy virgin, make him a slacker, make him a sex starved lunatic. It's all good.

 

Of course, men cannot complain about it because then they look like a whiney bitch. So they just have to sort of grin and laugh it off even though everywhere you turn in the media is another slap in the face to the straight man.

 

Despite all of this -- the man is still largely expected to be the provider, leader, and protector. He is supposed to still live up to his stereotype of being stoic and macho.

 

How many men who wear their emotions on their sleeve get laid? None. Most of them get friend zoned. I have had more than one woman tell me "He's cute but he's such a pussy! He is TOO nice! That's why I can't date him!"

 

But where in the media do we see James Dean, Clint Eastwood, other popular male, macho figures that defined classic masculinity.

 

You don't.

 

You see the married guy who hides the cable bill from his wife because he ordered porn.

 

I agree with this 100%. You can't demonize masculinity then complain when men act more feminine. This is really a case of be careful what you wish for. A lot of women demanded this change and now that they have it they aren't happy and men are just throwing their hands and saying the hell with it because they think women are never pleased.

[RedRobin]

Thank you for the very insightful replies everyone...

 

Now, you have me wondering what has caused this 'indecisiveness' recently in men?

 

 

What has caused it? Since more women don't need men strictly for financial support anymore, they are relying on them more to provide other things (often emotional support) they were not expected to provide in the past... so men have few role models.

 

Just like it is very tough for women in the business world to be viewed as nurturing (their traditional role), yet competent (their new role).

 

It is just as difficult for men in the relationship world to be viewed as competent (their traditional role), but still emotionally supportive (their new role).

 

Pair that with the idea that many things 'feminine' are considered repulsive and inferior unless it is something men can exploit and use at their whim... and you get a recipe for confusion.

 

Edited: IME, it is men who call other men 'p*ssies'... not women... when a guy is trying to demonstrate emotionally supportive qualities. 'Man up' and all that... like being a 'man' means being thoughtless, mean, and using women for sex. Too many men have some pretty twisted views of 'masculinity', TBH.

Edited July 1, 2013 by RedRobin

[skydiveaddict]

 

If I tell I date to "get dressed, I'm taking you out to dinner" she'd love it!

 

If I tell her to "get undressed, I'm coming over for sex" she'd (probably) hate it!

 

Of course. You're not gonna get any respect or affection from a girl by treating her like a prostitute. Girls like to be protected, treated well, loved and all that; but above all respected. You can't get a girl to like you if you don't respect her.

[questionlife]

Thanks, Mr. Castle (and everyone else)

 

You put into words what I admit I was thinking, but was even afraid to vocalise to myself! I completely agree with you (I see it in jokes everyday) and often wonder where we are going to go from here - is it going to get worse, or will people realise what is happening and try and normalise it before it swings too far the other way - in either case, I guess we are all living in an interesting era of social change

 

cheers!

Edited July 1, 2013 by questionlife
Typo

[ltjg45]

MrCastle couldn't have posted it better than this.

 

Utterly perfect.

 

As he mentioned in his post, I basically gave up. Too much risk, not enough reward. I can't see me actually keeping a woman happy due to their different forms of expectations so I'm just going to stay passive and be content being single unless I find a woman worth going after and, even then, I will still keep my guard up.

 

Better off doing that and living a decent life alone than to throw myself into the dating game and getting owned in multiple ways.

[RedRobin]

I'd suggest to the men they try some old-fashioned ways of dating, like actually getting to know a woman before you have sex....

 

Avoiding commitment is not the definition of 'manhood' that any of the strong, well-balanced men in my family have followed. Just the opposite in fact.

 

Interesting that Mr. Castle chooses Clint Eastwood and James Dean as his role models. Both are either womanizers or even abusive towards women in their real and imaginary life. I'd suggest finding other role models perhaps.

 

Ghandi and Martin Luther King come to mind...

[MrCastle]

I'd suggest to the men they try some old-fashioned ways of dating, like actually getting to know a woman before you have sex....

 

Avoiding commitment is not the definition of 'manhood' that any of the strong, well-balanced men in my family have followed. Just the opposite in fact.

 

Interesting that Mr. Castle chooses Clint Eastwood and James Dean as his role models. Both are either womanizers or even abusive towards women in their real and imaginary life. I'd suggest finding other role models perhaps.

 

Ghandi and Martin Luther King come to mind...

 

James Dean was gay.

 

Well, bi...whatever.

 

I'm not telling them to follow the real life of those men, nobody is perfect. But the characters they portrayed were classically masculine.

 

Watch Rebel Without A Cause if you haven't. Dean is soft spoken, thoughtful, cool, and confident. Not overly macho or sexist or any of that. His role in that movie is in my opinion, the man that all men should aspire to be.

[ltjg45]

I'd suggest to the men they try some old-fashioned ways of dating, like actually getting to know a woman before you have sex....

 

That is basically a requirement for me.

 

Esp. since I don't approach a woman looking strictly for sex anyway. I consider that a bonus. Actually cold approaching a woman isn't going to work for me and, even if I do, that doesn't mean it will amount to something at the end even if I would.

[RedRobin]

James Dean was gay.

 

Well, bi...whatever.

 

I'm not telling them to follow the real life of those men, nobody is perfect. But the characters they portrayed were classically masculine.

 

Watch Rebel Without A Cause if you haven't. Dean is soft spoken, thoughtful, cool, and confident. Not overly macho or sexist or any of that. His role in that movie is in my opinion, the man that all men should aspire to be.

 

You can choose whatever role models you like.

 

One thing I witness though, is that masculinity has somehow been equated these days to avoiding commitment... in all it's forms really.

 

Where in past days... commitment and taking on responsibility was a rite of passage for every man... Not just to a woman, but with their work, their community... something.

 

Commit to something Mr. Castle, is what I'm saying with my previous post.

[MrCastle]

You can choose whatever role models you like.

 

One thing I witness though, is that masculinity has somehow been equated these days to avoiding commitment... in all it's forms really. [/Quote]

 

That's interesting. In an Esquire article I read last month, it showed men want to settle down and start a family sooner than women now, since a lot of women now are focused on their careers much more than any other time in our history.

 

 

Where in past days... commitment and taking on responsibility was a rite of passage for every man... Not just to a woman, but with their work, their community... something. [/Quote]

 

Totally agree.

 

Commit to something Mr. Castle, is what I'm saying with my previous post.

 

I'm committed to my crafts. Acting, writing, photography. I'm committed to bettering my life so I can support myself, and more than that; do great things in this world. Women are not my be all, end all. If I happen to run into a girl that knocks me off my feet, I will make her mine. Until that time comes, I am focused on improving myself and growing as a person. Doesn't mean I fear commitment. Just means I fear committing to the wrong person.

[Drseussgrrl]

This is rather OT since we are talking about men, but I'd like to point out that it hasn't exactly been rosey for the girls, either.

 

We're expected to not only be educated, earn good salaries to supplement/match our men's, raise healthy well-adjusted kids, but do it all while also somehow maintaining our youthful figure and beauty. A badass in the boardroom and a source of nurture and femininity in the home. We wear a lot of hats.

 

So many times on this board I have seen men say that women sharply decline after 30. Do you know what kind of blow that is, the pressure to remain pretty and "in the game"?

 

Unfortunately, regardless of these recent societal changes, our biological makeup remains the same and so do our basic, different needs.

 

So which is it for us? Lock down a husband in our 20's (amongst a pool of men who are much less likely to commit than previous generations), raise a couple of kids and forgo a career? What if he leaves and I can't support myself? Or put the time and effort into a career that promises to comfortably earn for a family we someday wish to have, all the while having our biological clocks ticking impatiently away?

 

For the record, I've NEVER heard any of my independent female counterparts complain that a man planned a date or pulled out her chair at dinner. EVER.