Is this awful sex?

[jdthomas]

OK, I don't know if there's any further this can go, so... Yes, I could have provided the background info at the start, but there was no crazy reason I left it out - I just thought I could get some feedback and a simple tally of agree/disagree without typing for an extra hour. I figured I could provide extra info later if/when people had questions. Thanks for the replies and advice though. I see how it could, at first glance, seem like I was being selfish. I have let it go and let her fall asleep in the same situation before, but figured I'd get a "sorry about last night" and a make-up offer later on sometime, but then never did, and (not that I'm really "keeping score", but...) the "score" gets to like 10-0 in her favor. So sometimes I react like the situation I presented, where I'm like "can't you just stay awake for 10 freakin minutes here?" and she's completely oblivious to the fact that the "score" is 10-0 in her favor, and it's annoying that she cares so little to even realize that and see why I'm frustrated.

 

deb, I agree with the electronic devices being annoying in the bed. I think if I tried to ban them, it'd just be one more thing that would piss her off. I like your advice though. You sound like a lotta fun for your guy/guys. "lava penis"? LOL, that's hilarious and freakay. I try to bring up out-of-the-norm stuff every once in a while, but she just will not get into any of it.

 

Anyway, I have gotten some good advice and some new ways I can try to frame the issue with her. So I'll try talking things out again with her. We've been through it so many times, and promises are made, and agreements on how we can both be nicer to each other are worked out, but things always revert back to this. We've talked about going to counseling numerous times, and I've almost just gone ahead and seen a counselor on my own a couple times, but then decided to wait and see if things got better. One of these times I need to go through with it.

[Thegameoflife]

I've never asked for sex. Asking for sex is very likely to end with failure. The reason is that your asking her for something that is dependent on her arousal level. Since most women don't tend to go through life constantly aroused like most guys, it's actually more likely that she isn't aroused when you ask. 90% of the time you'll get "NO". If she is willing to say yes, you didn't even need to ask.

 

Instead, what I do, is I prime my wife with sexual suggestion, I caress her, touch her, and get her mind into the state where sex is on her mind. Then once she's there, I just go for it, and never ask. If a woman doesn't want it, they'll tell you so. This is called seduction. Due to my behavior towards her throughout the day, she actually wants it even when I'm not that interested.

 

The situation you're talking about is irrelevant, because your approach is wrong.

 

Of course, the trick is to do the job right. I make my wife cum twice or more every single time we have sex. If I'm sensitive, I just stop, and use my fingers or mouth to make sure she cums twice before I do, making it always rewarding for her to have sex with me. This is why I always get laid while everyone complains their wives are cold, and don't put out. I honestly don't understand how men have grown up and missed the fundemental understanding of seduction and pleasing women.

Edited July 2, 2013 by Thegameoflife

[JustAReformedGirl]

JDThomas: Best of luck. Though from what you're saying (about having had this discussion with her before) I wouldn't hold my breath. Sure, there's a chance things could change, but it might take quite awhile longer.

 

Hopefully therapy will help, but again, I can only see that going so far. Again, I apologize for assuming you were selfish. It's understandable that you didn't want to overload us with too much information at once. Having done the same kind of posting, I should have known better.

 

In any case, keep us posted on what occurs, if anything.

[Els]

(not that I'm really "keeping score", but...) the "score" gets to like 10-0 in her favor. So sometimes I react like the situation I presented, where I'm like "can't you just stay awake for 10 freakin minutes here?" and she's completely oblivious to the fact that the "score" is 10-0 in her favor, and it's annoying that she cares so little to even realize that and see why I'm frustrated.

 

I hate to nitpick, but how on earth does this correlate to the statement in your OP that 'there is an understanding between us that massages are usually followed with a BJ/HJ'? What sort of understanding is that when apparently now, according to you, she does 0 of the above?

[pinkie]

You going to counseling alone is not going to fix it. She is completely uninterested in you or the marriage it seems, nevertheless sexual relations. She may have a low libido which happens and can be totally hormonal, something she should get checked out... this could also explain her low energy as far as helping with household chores, etc. She could just be lazy because she knows you are going to do everything that needs to be done. It could be a combination of all of the above., even including some depression.

 

Unfortunately, you will probably have to resort to ignoring her selfish needs, set a time limit (30 days, 3 months) to see if she gets her act together and notices that her marriage is falling apart because she is taking you for granted. The talking is not working. You need to put some action behind your words. Be unavailable to her for a change, stop being a doormat.

 

Furthermore, don't demand sex or reciprocation. If you only do something to get something in return, you're doing it for the wrong reason to begin with. The agreement you two have has become dread when it comes to her keeping her end of the bargain. Don't put so much pressure on her to perform. She doesn't feel sexy, she's not in the mood and maybe she's lost some attraction for you. You've kind of taken on some of the traditional female roles in the marriage. Believe it or not, that turns a lot of women off. *** I am a women. This is my honest opinion on the matter. Goodluck to you!

[jdthomas]

Thanks for trying to teach me the art of seduction, gameoflife, but whenever I try to "be nice" to her throughout the day, or be extra helpful, I'm looked at like I have an ulterior motive (sex) and none of it is taken sincerely, even though it is. She actually gets more and more suspicious throughout the day, and by nighttime, she's just waiting for me to make my move, so she can specifically point out my ulterior motive. And so I can't help but kinda sarcastically say, "uh yeah, I guess you got me there. You are my wife and I love you, so of course I try to be nice to you, and as a result of that, I would hope to have physical relations with you." So then, with any "mood" being completely destroyed, I either say, "forget it", or we have lame sex or I get a robotic bj.

 

I should say I don't need to actually "ask" for sex, like I'm a meek puppy that she's got trained. When I say "ask" I more correctly mean "initiate", which could mean just asking. And she doesn't flatly reject me often, but there's no real enthusiasm on her part, it often feels like she could take it or leave it.

 

She'll sometimes tell me that if I want to get her in the mood, I need to light candles and all that. And then when I do that, she doesn't just get in the mood, she has to again specifically point out what I'm doing, and kind of half-chastise me for it, kind of like you might tease a kid, "are you trying to get me to give you a cookie?", and again, it spoils the romantic mood that she herself told me I was supposed to create. Or she'll even show open annoyance with my attempt, "huh? candles? now? (sigh) OK..." I'm pretty sure that if I didn't initiate anything, and if I didn't show any signs of being frustrated with the drought, we could go a year or more with nothing and she wouldn't bat an eyelash.

 

Elswyth, I said there was "kind of an understanding", not that it's a rigid (no pun intended, well, maybe a little, not that little!) rule of reciprocation. My problem is that if I am to receive any kind of sex first (it doesn't need to be bj/hj where only I am getting pleasure), I need to initiate, nearly always, and often it's done with reluctance and with the feeling of "get it over with". And as soon as we are done, she will automatically, just about always, roll over or flip around for a leg/back/whatever massage. And if I happen to be the one to say, "huh? now? (sigh)", which I have occasionally, but rarely done, I'm told "that's not fair".

 

If she is on the receiving end first, it's either because I have initiated a leg/back massage (and please don't say "yeah, because you are expecting some sort of sex afterward"), or she has initiated it by asking for the massage. Maybe my example of the 10-0 score was a bit of an exaggeration - as I said, I'm not actually "keeping score". My point was just that I notice when I've been shut down numerous times in a row, or been given very unenthusiastic sex (think the proverbial "dead fish") just to shut me up, even though she's still getting, very willingly from me, what she asks for. The annoying thing is that she apparently has no problem initiating a massage for herself, but she will hardly ever initiate sex for me (I would normally say "for us" but I think I've shown the ladies and gentlemen of the jury numerous exhibits of how she really doesn't seem to care whether there is sex or if there isn't). And annoying that she seems to often be bothered when I initiate sex or ask for it. I sometimes ask her, "You are aware that men enjoy and want lots of sex, right? And you are aware that you married a man, right?"

 

Reb-Dy, hey, no apology necessary. Thanks for the suggestions you've offered and for the good wishes. Yeah, that's why I've held off actually trying counseling. I think counselors will never "blame" one person, they will always frame it as "you both need to work together" and will say "I don't want to put fault on one over the other". Of course I'm not saying I am perfect or without fault at all, but I think here, the problem is 85% on her. What we need is a referee to live in our house and just watch us, and blow a whistle and bluntly say "your wrong here" either to me or her. Again, I would guess she would get 85% of the penalties. But even if a counselor were to point out that she needs to do more fixing than I do, she would just resent that she had been called out as wrong, and that wouldn't make her suddenly want to start being a willing and enjoyable sexual partner. So things would remain pretty much the same probably.

 

OK, this is way too long, so...

[jdthomas]

pinkie, thanks for your opinion and advice. I don't think I said she was lazy with household chores, and haven't meant to suggest that I do most of them. She does most of them, is a good cook, and cooks lots of homemade meals and everything. But I do a pretty good chunk of stuff around the house, probably more than a lot of guys do.

 

A hormone imbalance is something I've thought of, so yeah, that should probably be checked out. A little depression is also something I've thought of, and tried to gently sit her down and talk about it once, and she got angry at me, and it turned into an argument, and when the conversation/argument came around to the physical aspect, and I suggested that maybe that's why she doesn't really care about it, and was accused of "only thinking about sex".

 

I know going to counseling alone wouldn't do anything. I meant that I would go first for a few times to see whether I thought it would be helpful and whether the counselor even thought I had a case (sometimes my wife's attitude is so ridiculous, I can't believe it, and I actually start thinking that maybe I'm the one who's nutty).

[Mumbles]

I sometimes ask her, "You are aware that men enjoy and want lots of sex, right? And you are aware that you married a man, right?"

 

Women like sex a lot too ... at least as much as men, but I get what you are saying because I've been there and done that with my ex-wife.

 

I went through years of anguish before pulling the plug. I'll never do it again. If everything else is more or less fine and you'd be happy in your relationship for everything except the current status quo re: sexual frequency these days I'd be inclined to get that companionship outside the marriage. Bad sex is almost as bad as none at all (believe me!).

 

Sounds like you've talked about it, argued probably, and although it sounds like you might have formed some implied or even explicit agreement, its just not working out - so get yours elsewhere ... its not like your wife has any say in it ... she already knows how important the subject is to you and has decided to ignore you. Fine. Move on, sexually, and leave her be. What can the comeback, if she finds out, possibly be?

[Archgirl]

Nope def not the worst sex eva.

 

I'm guessing there's someone else that was in your bedroom that night that's got a better idea of what would be tho...

 

 

What are you? Five? Tantrums and sexual demands are generally not sexy FYI.

[JustAReformedGirl]

 

Reb-Dy, hey, no apology necessary. Thanks for the suggestions you've offered and for the good wishes. Yeah, that's why I've held off actually trying counseling. I think counselors will never "blame" one person, they will always frame it as "you both need to work together" and will say "I don't want to put fault on one over the other". Of course I'm not saying I am perfect or without fault at all, but I think here, the problem is 85% on her. What we need is a referee to live in our house and just watch us, and blow a whistle and bluntly say "your wrong here" either to me or her. Again, I would guess she would get 85% of the penalties. But even if a counselor were to point out that she needs to do more fixing than I do, she would just resent that she had been called out as wrong, and that wouldn't make her suddenly want to start being a willing and enjoyable sexual partner. So things would remain pretty much the same probably.

 

Sadly, I can see the same. Unless she is genuinely open to making some changes-both individually, and within the marriage-she likely won't appreciate being called out on her behaviour. I do encourage giving it a try, though; if you wind up with a good counsellor, it could make a world of difference.

 

If not counselling, you can sit down and talk to your wife, and bring up any aspects of yourself you feel you could work on. That way, she will be less inclined to view it as an attack when you bring up her rough areas.

[Thegameoflife]

Thanks for trying to teach me the art of seduction, gameoflife, but whenever I try to "be nice" to her throughout the day, or be extra helpful, I'm looked at like I have an ulterior motive (sex) and none of it is taken sincerely, even though it is. She actually gets more and more suspicious throughout the day, and by nighttime, she's just waiting for me to make my move, so she can specifically point out my ulterior motive. And so I can't help but kinda sarcastically say, "uh yeah, I guess you got me there. You are my wife and I love you, so of course I try to be nice to you, and as a result of that, I would hope to have physical relations with you." So then, with any "mood" being completely destroyed, I either say, "forget it", or we have lame sex or I get a robotic bj.

 

Holy crap man, you think "being nice" or "extra helpful" is how to seduce your wife? Being nice and helpful are just givens in a relationship. Seduction is using your body language, your verbal language, and touch, to stimulate her mind. Helping with the dishes and asking about her day is not seduction. Another issue, is that you have an ulterior motive. Making your wife feel like you only do things for her in exchange for sex, is essentially treating her like a prostitute; with the exception of you doing favours instead of paying with money. Not exactly the kind of thing that makes a woman feel sexy.

 

Seduction comes from the primal side. It's that instinct to check out a beautiful woman as she walks by. It's that impulse to want to reach out and slap that ass, grab a boob, or kiss her neck. It's that look in your eye that says you want to jump her like an animal. It activates a woman's primal urges as a result. If you're having a problem with her thinking you always have an ulterior motive, then maybe quit having an ulterior motive. What you need to do is make this an every day thing. Whether she puts out or not, you still seduce and turn her on every day.

 

The problem with what you're currently doing is trying to create your own reward system. Normally, reward systems work by one person setting out a task, and then rewarding for completing the task. What you're doing is deciding that doing something for your wife is a task, and then demanding a reward that was never put into play. If I came over to your house, changed the oil in your car, and demanded payment for these services, you'd probably tell me to piss off. You shouldn't expect less from your wife. The thing about sex, is that it isn't a reward, but it should be rewarding for both parties. Sex as a wanted reward, or an offered reward, is caustic to a marriage.

 

The idea behind seduction is that sex isn't the goal. The seduction is done because it's enjoyable for both parties, as it's fun turning each other on. If it leads to sex, it is not a reward, but rather a higher level of pleasure to achieve beyond the seduction.

 

The problem for you is taking sex as a reward that you want, and turning it back into sex that is rewarding for both. To do this, you have to use an act of good faith. What this means, is that you need to start being seductive every day. One the first day, seduce her, and take it nowhere. On the second day, end it with a massage. Refuse favours, and simply tell her you didn't do this for reward. The next day you use your fingers and your mouth, and make sure you do the job right. After a week, she'll be insisting on penetration, and wanting to return the favour. From then on, sex is no longer a reward, but rather just a higher point of pleasure for both to achieve.

 

I'm the only guy I know that gets sex whenever he wants. I must be doing something right.

Edited July 3, 2013 by Thegameoflife

[Mumbles]

TGOL, pretty much all of what you've said above I agree with - however, its advice for much much earlier in the OP's problem. Right now, he's a starving man trying to do tricks for some crumbs of food.

 

I was in a not dissimilar situation with my ex-wife. Coming back from the brink using your method above has to cross several barriers which are currently built up, trust, from her, that you are not acting out of pure self interest, trust from you that eventually your wife is actually going to start putting out and won't simply suck up your 'gifts' of time, love and seduction whilst still allowing you to starve.

 

Re-building this trust could well take 6-9-12 months to achieve, and there is absolutely no guarantee that things have not already progressed too far in the wrong direction to fully recover.

 

Its my strongly held opinion nowadays that one has to 'feed the beast' in order for focus to be adjusted in ones mind to other things. For me, post marriage, I see escorts, this completely nullifies and sexual leverage that might be used against me in any form whatsoever from ladies I'm involved with and lets me concentrate without losing focus on other aspects of a relationship. I'm convinced that if I'd done this when I was married then I might still be married now and we'd have quite probably been able to get past a significant problem point.

[Pastypop]

I love my husband but man, he is so boring in and out the bedroom. What I wouldn't give for us to have a little fun sometimes. If I can booze him up he becomes a whole other person. He laughs, jokes, cut-ups and has a good time like he used to years ago before kids. Maybe she's just bored. Find some fun things to do in and out of the bedroom and that might get her more interested in sex.

[Els]

Elswyth, I said there was "kind of an understanding", not that it's a rigid (no pun intended, well, maybe a little, not that little!) rule of reciprocation. My problem is that if I am to receive any kind of sex first (it doesn't need to be bj/hj where only I am getting pleasure), I need to initiate, nearly always, and often it's done with reluctance and with the feeling of "get it over with". And as soon as we are done, she will automatically, just about always, roll over or flip around for a leg/back/whatever massage. And if I happen to be the one to say, "huh? now? (sigh)", which I have occasionally, but rarely done, I'm told "that's not fair".

 

If she is on the receiving end first, it's either because I have initiated a leg/back massage (and please don't say "yeah, because you are expecting some sort of sex afterward"), or she has initiated it by asking for the massage. Maybe my example of the 10-0 score was a bit of an exaggeration - as I said, I'm not actually "keeping score". My point was just that I notice when I've been shut down numerous times in a row, or been given very unenthusiastic sex (think the proverbial "dead fish") just to shut me up, even though she's still getting, very willingly from me, what she asks for. The annoying thing is that she apparently has no problem initiating a massage for herself, but she will hardly ever initiate sex for me (I would normally say "for us" but I think I've shown the ladies and gentlemen of the jury numerous exhibits of how she really doesn't seem to care whether there is sex or if there isn't). And annoying that she seems to often be bothered when I initiate sex or ask for it. I sometimes ask her, "You are aware that men enjoy and want lots of sex, right? And you are aware that you married a man, right?"

 

Ah, okay, this is much clearer now. It's not so much the frequency that bothers you, but rather her enthusiasm. Enthusiasm is a tricky thing. It's something that needs to happen organically, both in herself and in your method of encouraging it. This is different from the issue cited by some others, in which their spouse will not even oblige them sometimes. Sounds like your wife is 'obliging' your sexual needs, but you don't want it to be out of 'obligation'. Am I correct so far?

 

From my point of view, both of you have created a sort of vicious cycle in which even your seduction attempts are failing because she knows that you are expecting sex after it. The situation you mentioned in your OP is a notable example. You gave her a massage, she enjoyed it, nodded off, then you WOKE HER UP multiple times so you could get a BJ, then accused her of giving you the 'worst sex ever' when she grumpily started to do it out of obligation. Next time you give her a massage, do you think it's going to evoke feelings of passion, romance, and desire in her, or is she going to think, "Crap, now I have to give him a BJ immediately after this even if I'm tired"?

 

Now, I'm not pinning the blame solely on you, but someone has to break that vicious cycle if you are to keep this relationship alive. TGOL has given you excellent advice on how to be the person to do so.

 

Note that this is from the POV of a woman who initiates sex about 50% of the time with her partner and very much enjoys it. I assure you that if my SO ever did what you mentioned in your OP, and especially if he made a habit out of it, my desire for sex with him would greatly lessen.

[Thegameoflife]

TGOL, pretty much all of what you've said above I agree with - however, its advice for much much earlier in the OP's problem. Right now, he's a starving man trying to do tricks for some crumbs of food.

 

I was in a not dissimilar situation with my ex-wife. Coming back from the brink using your method above has to cross several barriers which are currently built up, trust, from her, that you are not acting out of pure self interest, trust from you that eventually your wife is actually going to start putting out and won't simply suck up your 'gifts' of time, love and seduction whilst still allowing you to starve.

 

Re-building this trust could well take 6-9-12 months to achieve, and there is absolutely no guarantee that things have not already progressed too far in the wrong direction to fully recover.

 

Its my strongly held opinion nowadays that one has to 'feed the beast' in order for focus to be adjusted in ones mind to other things. For me, post marriage, I see escorts, this completely nullifies and sexual leverage that might be used against me in any form whatsoever from ladies I'm involved with and lets me concentrate without losing focus on other aspects of a relationship. I'm convinced that if I'd done this when I was married then I might still be married now and we'd have quite probably been able to get past a significant problem point.

 

I loved the juxtaposition so much I bolded it. In the same sentence, you say you need to get her to trust that you're not just doing it all for sex, and then say that you need to trust that after you do all this stuff for her, that you're going to get sex. Like I said, sex is not a reward for a behavior.

 

How can he ever build his wife's trust when getting laid is his goal, and all of his positive stimulating behavior is a facade to get her in the mood? I kind of feel bad for his wife that he doesn't just want to treat her that way.

 

As for sexual leverage. You can only hold something over a person who lets you. Your simply admitting that your will power sucks, so instead you just give into your urges with an escort. Developing will power to the point where sex has no power over you, would nullify sexual leverage.

[BostonDave]

Looking at this in a vacuum, I'd say your wife was tired and that a good husband should respect that her need for sleep on one night is equal to or greater than your need for an immediate handjob.

[smoky eyes]

Been in that relationship, as the uninterested, non-initiating woman. I thought I wasn't that interested in sex, and I KNEW sex with my partner left me cold (or rather, it was painful).

 

It really sucked, and finally ruined the relationship. He was a really nice guy, did a lot for me, I wish I could have done what he wanted and needed, but I felt like there was a huge physical incompatibility, sex-wise, that couldn't be overcome. He tried turning me on, learned how to stimulate me, etc. etc. and I still never initiated (it hurt).

 

I initiate constantly with my current partner, so libido wasn't the problem.

 

That's a major downer of a post, sorry...