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"If they'll cheat with you, they'll cheat ON you." Not always true.

Alone909

By Alone909
in The Other Man / Woman

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Steadfast Established Member

Steadfast

Posted
Posted
That's the point of these forums, so no, that hadn't escaped me.

 

Are you sure? I've already written that I don't know you and I haven't read your story. I know a little more now. RD, my original post was directed to your comment. I wrote my thoughts and explained why I wrote them. I suspect your turmoil is causing you to be a little defensive, but that's not necessarily a bad thing. You have choices and you will make them. Some will support you in them. Can you be happy knowing a percentage of people (including possibly your husband) never will?

 

I'm unclear on what you mean. "Betrayers love grading on the curve"?

 

Easy. Grading on a curve is surmising; "I might have cheated and lied, but I'm not as bad as that person." In my opinion, bad is bad RD. Taken on face value, cheating and deception hurts others, even if your angel food cake is to die for and everyone loves your Christmas decorations.

 

Again, I am sorry for your situation. But honestly, can we not just agree to disagree? This argument will get us nowhere. At the end of it, you'll still see me as a villain, and I'll just become increasingly frustrated, while maintaining guilt for your situation. It goes nowhere.

 

No apology needed. My story turned from bad to good, but only because I had the desire to make that happen. A lot of that work was admitting my faults, weaknesses, and fears. That's my position, not my argument. Do you know right from wrong? Knowing and doing are different things. Integrity, honor and self-esteem are earned, not inherited.

 

What's more, I believe we all have it within ourselves to repair the parts of our lives that are broken. It probably won't be easy, but IMO, it certainly is worthwhile. Unlike before, this is written from me to you RD. Personally.

 

Also, my husband is well aware of this; the infidelity is the only thing he doesn't know. He knows everything else. I'm well aware there is nothing that I can do to change the devastation it will cause. What would you have me do, honestly? At this point, he's better off without me, even if he doesn't realize it.

 

In my opinion, you need to resolve the issues that cause you to cheat and deceive. It's a hunch, but I suspect your martial status will have little effect on the process. You and your husband will decide for your marriage, but I can advise that anything less than complete honesty will result in a less than satisfactory outcome. That is to say, you'll be divorced and dealing with the same issues. In that regard, you'll have plenty of company, but something tells me you want better than that for yourself. I hope so.

  • Like 1
JustAReformedGirl Established Member

JustAReformedGirl

Posted
Posted (edited)
Are you sure? I've already written that I don't know you and I haven't read your story. I know a little more now. RD, my original post was directed to your comment. I wrote my thoughts and explained why I wrote them. I suspect your turmoil is causing you to be a little defensive, but that's not necessarily a bad thing. You have choices and you will make them. Some will support you in them. Can you be happy knowing a percentage of people (including possibly your husband) never will?

 

I apologize. I didn't mean to come off defensive. Chances are, you're right. I've been trying to mentally and emotionally prepare myself for the storm that comes from me leaving. I still haven't told him of my affair, but my husband will be the only one I do tell. The storm that comes from leaving him (in regards to friends and family) will already be devastating enough. He and I have spoken about me leaving. He tells me he doesn't want me to stay just for him...but a big part of him would allow me to stay, if I grew cold feet about leaving...even though he knows it likely would only be for that reason. I told him I'm not okay with that, which is why I won't do that. It would destroy us both, with time.

 

But in short, I'd learn to accept what follows my decision. After all, each action has consequences, for good or for ill.

 

 

 

Easy. Grading on a curve is surmising; "I might have cheated and lied, but I'm

not as bad as that person." In my opinion, bad is bad RD. Taken on face

value, cheating and deception hurts others, even if your angel food cake is to

die for and everyone loves your Christmas decorations.

 

Ah, thank you for the explanation. I was unfamiliar with the term. Of course, you're right. Cheating is cheating, regardless of why, for how long, etc.

 

 

 

No apology needed. My story turned from bad to good, but only because I had the

desire to make that happen. A lot of that work was admitting my faults,

weaknesses, and fears. That's my position, not my argument. Do you know right

from wrong? Knowing and doing are different things. Integrity, honor and

self-esteem are earned, not inherited.

 

Yes, this is also true. I did what I did knowingly. I felt bad (and continue to feel bad) but it doesn't change the fact that I've done it. Believe you me, if I could change it, I would. I'm not saying I wouldn't eventually divorce; but if I'd known how things would turn out, I wouldn't have entered the affair. I'd go into the story, but it's long, and I know, at the end of it, I still made a poor choice-no matter what my reasons were. After all, if you want to know, you only have but to click on my profile, and look for my thread.

 

And yes, those things-honour, integrity, and self-esteem-are things that are built, over time. Or in some cases, never. Usually, it's in varying degrees. But it's never something we start out with; we have to learn them.

 

What's more, I believe we all have it within ourselves to repair the parts of

our lives that are broken. It probably won't be easy, but IMO, it certainly is

worthwhile. Unlike before, this is written from me to you RD.

Personally.

 

I'm quite touched by that. Honestly. You're showing a level of compassion that is both unexpected, and at this point, probably undeserved. Thank you.

 

 

 

In my opinion, you need to resolve the issues that cause you to cheat and deceive. It's a hunch, but I suspect your martial status will have little effect on the process. You and your husband will decide for your marriage, but I can advise that anything less than complete honesty will result in a less than satisfactory outcome. That is to say, you'll be divorced and dealing with the same issues. In that regard, you'll have plenty of company, but something tells me you want better than that for yourself. I hope so.

 

I do, Steadfast. Better for myself doesn't mean staying in my marriage, of course. But I've been struggling for some time now, over if and when I should 'fess up to him about the affair. He knows everything else-how I'm emotionally bound to the other person-but I keep balking at telling him the truth about what has transpired. Funny enough, I don't hesitate for myself. I'm worried about how it will affect him. I know, kind of late for that; should have thought about that before I had an affair. Again, I could really use that reset button.

Edited by Rebel-Dynasty
Got it Established Member

Got it

Posted
Posted

 

Your statement is a slap in the face to every betrayed person forced to swallow and survive a devastation they had no part in choosing.

 

Maybe I am confused by what forum I am on but why should the posters here have to edit their thoughts around whether or not a BS may find it offensive?

 

Sorry, but a very blunt "so" is warranted.

 

I learned a lot by the affair, I learned a lot about myself, about him, about people, about life. I learned some very good lessons while it doesn't diminish the pain it may have caused the lessons are learned nevertheless.

 

I don't believe once a cheater is always a cheater, but I don't believe in generalizations or carte blanche statements in general.

spice4life Established Member

spice4life

Posted
Posted

I don't believe that saying to be true at all. I was in an affair, but I'm absolutely certain I would not cheat if I were involved in a commited relationship. I would however, if I were involved with someone who did cheat in their previous relationship, expect them to work on why they chose to cheat and resolve the issue. Plus, if they were a "conflict avoider," I would want them to look at that and work to stop the behaviors associated with it as well. Conflict avoiders tend to manipulate around addressing issues that are important to maintaining a healthy relationship because the view it as "conflict". Having a tough honest discussion is not conflictual; it just means there are isues that need to be addressed and resolved for the relatonship to evolve to a better one.

 

If a person was willing to address those concerns I wouldn't have a problem giving them the chance to do it. I would expect them to tell me if they have concerns about me as well. Two way street. Haha! :)

  • Like 1
JustAReformedGirl Established Member

JustAReformedGirl

Posted
Posted
I don't believe that saying to be true at all. I was in an affair, but I'm absolutely certain I would not cheat if I were involved in a commited relationship. I would however, if I were involved with someone who did cheat in their previous relationship, expect them to work on why they chose to cheat and resolve the issue. Plus, if they were a "conflict avoider," I would want them to look at that and work to stop the behaviors associated with it as well. Conflict avoiders tend to manipulate around addressing issues that are important to maintaining a healthy relationship because the view it as "conflict". Having a tough honest discussion is not conflictual; it just means there are isues that need to be addressed and resolved for the relatonship to evolve to a better one.

 

If a person was willing to address those concerns I wouldn't have a problem giving them the chance to do it. I would expect them to tell me if they have concerns about me as well. Two way street. Haha! :)

 

Sounds a little bit like my AP; he can be really blunt, but when it comes to certain things, he skirts around the issue.

 

As of late, I've been coaxing him to be more upfront about these things, and to understand anything I bring up in relation to us, is not meant as an attack, but to remove a few stumbling blocks, if we have a chance for a legit relationship.

Pierre Established Member

Pierre

Posted
Posted
I don't believe that saying to be true at all. I was in an affair, but I'm absolutely certain I would not cheat if I were involved in a commited relationship. I would however, if I were involved with someone who did cheat in their previous relationship, expect them to work on why they chose to cheat and resolve the issue. Plus, if they were a "conflict avoider," I would want them to look at that and work to stop the behaviors associated with it as well. Conflict avoiders tend to manipulate around addressing issues that are important to maintaining a healthy relationship because the view it as "conflict". Having a tough honest discussion is not conflictual; it just means there are isues that need to be addressed and resolved for the relatonship to evolve to a better one.

 

If a person was willing to address those concerns I wouldn't have a problem giving them the chance to do it. I would expect them to tell me if they have concerns about me as well. Two way street. Haha! :)

 

I understand that some conflict avoiders cheat. But, some members of the forum fail to see that some people simply cheat because they have the opportunity to cheat.

 

When I reas thee threads I get the feeling that some people think there are no cheaters in the planet. Some people cheat because they have a tendency to cheat.

 

I am certain that some people cheat only once. I am willing to accept a ONS, or a very short fling. However, a single affair that requires lying for a long time requires a special type of cheater.

 

I have cheated, but I don't think I could do it consistently for a long time. I am not negating the fact that some folks cheat only once, but I would be weary of a single long term cheater.

  • Like 1
JustAReformedGirl Established Member

JustAReformedGirl

Posted
Posted
I understand that some conflict avoiders cheat. But, some members of the forum fail to see that some people simply cheat because they have the opportunity to cheat.

 

True.

 

When I read these threads I get the feeling that some people think there are no

cheaters in the planet. Some people cheat because they have a tendency to

cheat.

 

Also true.

 

I am certain that some people cheat only once. I am willing to accept a ONS, or

a very short fling. However, a single affair that requires lying for a long

time requires a special type of cheater.

 

This is making me look at my own situation, but I'm not entirely sure how to categorize myself, or if I should even bother. It took seven and a half years for me to wind up in an affair...and the affair has lasted a year (though it has been limited-at least on a physical level).

 

In this case, I'm not really sure what to make of myself.

Pierre Established Member

Pierre

Posted
Posted

This is making me look at my own situation, but I'm not entirely sure how to categorize myself, or if I should even bother. It took seven and a half years for me to wind up in an affair...and the affair has lasted a year (though it has been limited-at least on a physical level).

 

In this case, I'm not really sure what to make of myself.

 

I have cheated with co-workers, but i call it not formal cheating. I had EAs with some necking in the supply room. All very informal and not serious at all. Never had a desire to end my mariage and I was happy in the marriage. I was just young and loved the women. Whenever there was mention of doing something outside of the workplace i backed off. I could not stand the stress of premeditated deceit. If it was planned I could not go thru with it. If it was unexpected, unplanned, and occasional ----and if it happened at work I could live with it.

 

IMO, it must be stressful to be in a full blown affair where the married person has to be lying 24/7. I know some folks rationalize it, but for me it would be very hard.

 

As for you: You are not a bad person; there are no bad bones in your body. I can tell from your posts that you are struggling with this. The problem with these affairs is that the married person slowly breaks down boundaries and barriers that lead to more deceit. I know how it can happen, but for me it would be VERY STRESSFUL. Another stock phrase that is used: "I don't know how it happened" comes to mind. It is a clever mechanism of defense.

 

I suggest the following:

 

If your marriage is broken try to fix it with MC. if you are not willing then get a divorce. It may be difficult, but you will end up in a much better place than now.

 

If divorce is not an option end the affair and keep trying to fix the marriage. At lest you will have some peace of mind.

JustAReformedGirl Established Member

JustAReformedGirl

Posted
Posted
I have cheated with co-workers, but i call it not formal cheating. I had EAs with some necking in the supply room. All very informal and not serious at all. Never had a desire to end my mariage and I was happy in the marriage. I was just young and loved the women. Whenever there was mention of doing something outside of the workplace i backed off. I could not stand the stress of premeditated deceit. If it was planned I could not go thru with it. If it was unexpected, unplanned, and occasional ----and if it happened at work I could live with it.

 

IMO, it must be stressful to be in a full blown affair where the married person has to be lying 24/7. I know some folks rationalize it, but for me it would be very hard.

 

Oh, beyond belief. Be glad you didn't go as far.

 

As for you: You are not a bad person; there are no bad bones in your body.

 

Despite feeling like complete hell, I appreciate that.

 

 

I can tell from your posts that you are struggling with this. The

problem with these affairs is that the married person slowly breaks down

boundaries and barriers that lead to more deceit.

 

That is certainly true, in my case.

 

 

I know how it can happen, but for me it would be VERY

STRESSFUL. Another stock phrase that is used: "I don't know

how it happened" comes to mind. It is a clever mechanism of defense.

 

Sadly, I know exactly how it happened.

 

 

I suggest the following:

 

 

 

 

 

If your marriage is broken try to fix it with MC. if you are not willing

then get a divorce. It may be difficult, but you will end up in a much better

place than now.

 

I think, earlier on I would have considered MC. But after all the soul-searching I've done-not just on my affair, but on the entirety of my relationship with my husband-I think divorce is my best bet. Not just for my benefit, but for my husband as well (even though he may not view it that way, at first; maybe he never will). I've been trying to work out the when, for a whole plethora of reasons, however. I think the waiting and just going through our daily lives as if nothing is wrong is what's really getting to me. I know, to some extent, it's getting to him, too; but, he seems to be more in a state of denial, than anything.

 

Thanks for your input, Pierre. It's actually very helpful. :)

Spark1111 Established Member

Spark1111

Posted
Posted

I believe the statement has to do with one's coping and communication skills.

 

there are people who find themselves in unsatisfactory marriages everyday and do divorce without ever cheating. imagine that? Imagine all the acrimony, devastation, and heartache they SAVE themselves my honestly declaring their needs to their spouse and setting realistic goals and time frames to achieve them.

 

I'm with Seren on this one. Unless someone introspects to learn WHY they thought cheating was an option to cure an unhappy relationship, OR their own personal unhappiness, I would question and be made very insecure by the prospect that unhappy again in the future, another affair could be their solution.

 

Hey, HAPPY TOGETHER is easy. Unhappy times, and every relationship WILL have them, is what tests the merit, integrity and character of the two people in the relationship.

  • Like 1
Anna-Belle Established Member

Anna-Belle

Posted
Posted (edited)

 

Hey, HAPPY TOGETHER is easy. Unhappy times, and every relationship WILL have them, is what tests the merit, integrity and character of the two people in the relationship.

 

Which is why EMRs are so thoroughly tested. An EMR is not an easy road to take, so if the relationship survives it's likely a sturdy relationship.

 

It takes years for a marriage to have to go through the same tests. As married you go through the home building phase, the having kids phase, and THEN you start to hit the hard patches.

 

I do agree though that introspection is needed on why the WS thought it was a good idea to stay married instead of getting a divorce. Luckily many WS do IC before leaving and thus get professional help with looking at these issues, so they hopefully will not be repeating them.

Edited by Anna-Belle
  • Like 1
Spark1111 Established Member

Spark1111

Posted
Posted
Which is why EMRs are so thoroughly tested. An EMR is not an easy road to take, so if the relationship survives it's likely a sturdy relationship.

 

It takes years for a marriage to have to go through the same tests. As married you go through the home building phase, the having kids phase, and THEN you start to hit the hard patches.

 

I do agree though that introspection is needed on why the WS thought it was a good idea to stay married instead of getting a divorce. Luckily many WS do IC before leaving and thus get professional help with looking at these issues, so they hopefully will not be repeating them.

 

I'm not sure EMRs are tested. can you explain?

 

you do not have to stay up at night caring for sick children, or go into debt together, or deal with the in-laws or dry cleaning.

 

How exactly are they tested? By reality?

  • Like 2
Leigh 87 Established Member

Leigh 87

Posted
Posted

Some people are not good at picking partners who they are actually in love with.

 

When they find a person they truly have a spark for, for are surrounded by that person enough; they could fall IN love with the right person.

 

It is still the persons bad character that results in a cheater cheating, opposed to leaving their partner first.

 

Some people are weak, and they are just not that in love. With their partners. Therefore they lie and cheat in order to be with the one they are actually in love with, rather than having the balls to end their relationship (before they opt to cheat).

 

I am adamant that once a person is truly IN love, deeply, that not all that much will result in them cheating on their lover. Unless they are very flawed and broken people.

  • Like 1
Spark1111 Established Member

Spark1111

Posted
Posted
I know couples who started out as affairs and all that "oh it can't happen to me because I know his/her tricks!" is fanciful bulls**t. In my experience, all that leads to is fighting, constant suspicion, mistrust and doubt. I feel like this is what OW/OM have to tell themselves in order to make things ok. It goes back to that need to believe they are, again, so special and amazing that they tempted away someone who otherwise wouldn't have strayed.

 

Actually the stat often quoted is 65 percent of second marriages fail and those that started as affairs are suspected to be higher. Distrust is cited as the reason.

Anna-Belle Established Member

Anna-Belle

Posted
Posted
I'm not sure EMRs are tested. can you explain?

 

you do not have to stay up at night caring for sick children, or go into debt together, or deal with the in-laws or dry cleaning.

 

How exactly are they tested? By reality?

 

This board is full of evidence of how difficult it is to be in an EMR. No need for me to explain any further.

Damia Established Member

Damia

Posted
Posted

Can someone please clarify what EMR stands for Iv not seen it used here before? Cheers

Anna-Belle Established Member

Anna-Belle

Posted
Posted
Can someone please clarify what EMR stands for Iv not seen it used here before? Cheers

 

extramarital relationship

  • Like 1
Got it Established Member

Got it

Posted
Posted
I believe the statement has to do with one's coping and communication skills.

 

there are people who find themselves in unsatisfactory marriages everyday and do divorce without ever cheating. imagine that? Imagine all the acrimony, devastation, and heartache they SAVE themselves my honestly declaring their needs to their spouse and setting realistic goals and time frames to achieve them.

 

I'm with Seren on this one. Unless someone introspects to learn WHY they thought cheating was an option to cure an unhappy relationship, OR their own personal unhappiness, I would question and be made very insecure by the prospect that unhappy again in the future, another affair could be their solution.

 

Hey, HAPPY TOGETHER is easy. Unhappy times, and every relationship WILL have them, is what tests the merit, integrity and character of the two people in the relationship.

 

I am sorry but this made me :lmao:. How many divorces do you know that don't have the above regardless of reason?

 

I had a very amicable divorce and told that it was an anomaly and not normal. I had a divorce WITH an affair at the end. And still amicable. But then I did put in the reasonable timelines for things to improve, tried therapy, etc.

 

And I will say that I have learned more about my dMM/husband during the affair then what I would have learned in such a short amount of time dating. I saw him for his good, bad, ugly, sweet, healthy, and unhealthy attributes. I have seen him put more energy into our relationship than I have seen from any man in any prior relationship. What has added is seeing the above transcend the different periods of our relationship so I can weigh the patterns and see what is him, me, us, external event. Time helps greatly with this.

 

I think introspection is very important for everyone and I find that most people do not have it especially in romantic relationships. They are much quicker/comfortable to reflect everything on the other party as being a victim is so much nicer. ;)

  • Like 1
Got it Established Member

Got it

Posted
Posted
And yet nothing in this thread has actually done anything to disprove that theory. Is it always 100% certain they will cheat? Well no, very little in life is 100% certain, however if someone is of a mind to cheat as opposed to being open and honest with their partners, not giving into every whim or temptation, etc it is obviously far more likely they operate with a degree of selfishness and lack of impulse control that is indicative of someone who will most likely cheat again. Most people who cheat are at least to some extent, simply wired that way; not because their extramarital lovers weren't just so special and amazing they couldn't possibly resist.

 

It's funny, many mistresses, yes, mistresses go a long way to convince themselves that if their married partner was with them for good, it would NEVER happen again. I haven't engaged in that kind of whimsical thinking since my last Disney movie. It is far, far different carrying on a relationship in secret — since, by nature, it is unlikely the pair would ever spend the amount of time together necessary to accurately predict how things would be if the situation were more public and permanent — than it is to be married to that person.

 

I feel like, if you can live with your affair as it's happening and still lie next to your unsuspecting spouse night after night, you are fully capable of betraying the very same person you're currently betraying you spouse with.

 

And how exactly would you like people to disprove the statement? What sort of scenario are you expecting to read to garner this conclusion? Is it a period of time, a stage for the relationship, a conclusion of life? What?

 

Based on your last line I think, then, that thus far we are disproving your above conclusion. But then we are (hopefully) a long way from death so anything can happen. But so far, this relationship is set up and operating much differently than prior ones.

JustAReformedGirl Established Member

JustAReformedGirl

Posted
Posted
"there are people who find themselves in unsatisfactory marriages everyday

and do divorce without ever cheating. imagine that? Imagine all the acrimony,

devastation, and heartache they SAVE themselves my honestly declaring their

needs to their spouse and setting realistic goals and time frames to achieve

them."

 

Sorry Spark1111, but I have to agree with Got It on this one. Divorce can and will still result in devastation and heartache. Your premise was somewhat flawed, here.

 

That being said, throw an affair on top of all that? Yes, I will agree that it will wreak further devastation and heartache.

 

Well, in most cases. There are of course those cases in which both spouses, afraid to leave their marriage, engage in affairs, despite their apparent lack of happiness. Perhaps they do it to keep up appearances, who knows?

 

Anyway, that was just basically my two-cents.

Pierre Established Member

Pierre

Posted
Posted (edited)

To have a full blown affair one needs to lie. I know many single OWs claim they do not lie, but the married person needs to lie.

 

Some say everybody lies AKA white lies, but that is an ethical fallacy and not the same.

 

There are two type of cheaters:

 

1. Those that accept they messed up and take all the blame without trying to rationalize.

 

2. Those that are so insecure that they cannot accept blame. Therefore, they rationalize till the cows come home. Cheating only once is a form of rationalization. But, in reality, the propensity is always there.

 

 

This is like an alcoholic that denies having a drinking problem versus an alcoholic that knows he is an alcoholic.

Edited by Pierre
  • Like 1
Spark1111 Established Member

Spark1111

Posted
Posted

 

Sorry Spark1111, but I have to agree with Got It on this one. Divorce can and will still result in devastation and heartache. Your premise was somewhat flawed, here.

 

That being said, throw an affair on top of all that? Yes, I will agree that it will wreak further devastation and heartache.

 

Well, in most cases. There are of course those cases in which both spouses, afraid to leave their marriage, engage in affairs, despite their apparent lack of happiness. Perhaps they do it to keep up appearances, who knows?

 

Anyway, that was just basically my two-cents.

 

Actually 40 percent of all divorces happen within the first five years of marriage with zero to one child.

 

That's an oops! I married the wrong person or married for the wrong reasons. Nothing about affairs noted in that study.

JustAReformedGirl Established Member

JustAReformedGirl

Posted
Posted
Actually 40 percent of all divorces happen within the first five years of marriage with zero to one child.

 

That's an oops! I married the wrong person or married for the wrong reasons. Nothing about affairs noted in that study.

 

I was actually only pointing out that heartache and devastation do still occur as a result of divorce. But meh. *Shrug*

Got it Established Member

Got it

Posted
Posted
Actually 40 percent of all divorces happen within the first five years of marriage with zero to one child.

 

That's an oops! I married the wrong person or married for the wrong reasons. Nothing about affairs noted in that study.

 

But that doesn't mean that there weren't affairs, does it? Unless you want to cite the study it is hard to say that the 40 percent did not encompass affairs, addictions, etc.

MissBee Established Member

MissBee

Posted
Posted
:confused: Uh, well there actually kind of is. Since you stated "Which is why EMRs are so thoroughly tested" it's really only fair you at least give some examples of just how you think those relantipnships are tested. It also seems to be your contention that not only are EMRs hard, but they're harder than marriages and if they blossom into relationships they're somehow sturdier and more likely to succeed. I'd love to hear the reasoning behind that. Frankly I think something that began in deceit is, if not doomed to failure than certainly less likely to succeed than one born out of trust and the desire for loyalty.

 

That's like becoming friends with someone based on your mutual affinity for meanness, cruelty and treating others with contempt. How many friendships do you know that started out with nastiness and rumor end up being stable and full of trust? Those personality traits are not only bound to clash but prone to sabotage and a disregard for others.

 

Great post!

 

I don't think EMR are tested, so much as they are simply difficult and often drama-filled because they are mostly secret and triangulated. It's not the same kind of unavoidable, life tests which open relationships go through, where life throws the couple a curve ball and they work through it. EMRs often start off tumultuous for no other reason than having a secret other relationship outside of your marriage (and family for some) takes lots of twisting, turning, and self-imposed "tests". I think that kind of "test" isn't really a test, often, but self-sabotage.

 

EMRs are hard, not in the sense of, you put so much hard work in albeit difficult, but in the sense of, you put yourself in an unnecessarily complicated situation, which mostly doesn't pay off.

  • Like 1
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