bobmarley Posted June 12, 2013 Posted June 12, 2013 The thread with the backstory in it can be found here: (http://www.loveshack.org/forums/romantic/dating/399683-i-think-i-m-going-tell-him-today) If that's tl and you dr, then here's the story. I told my boyfriend I loved him on Thursday in a pretty thoughtful way using notes. He told me Thursday night that he wasn't ready to say it back yet. And today he said it back, when I least expected it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I haven't been able to keep the stupid grin off my face. Of course, I have yet to tell him I love him verbally, but I'm sure I'll find a perfect moment. Thanks for all your support, guys! 12
ThomasD Posted June 12, 2013 Posted June 12, 2013 MOST SUPERBLY AWESOME! File this away for future reference: your B/F MAY get special pleasure by surprising you with things. Sometimes his "surprises" may come at times, or situations, or in ways that you consider embarrassing, or dumb, or even inappropriate. He is probably NOT trying to be malicious. Accept the "gift" graciously, and critique the "package" or "wrapping" at another time. I hope you're ready for a vacation . . .
Sunshine87 Posted June 12, 2013 Posted June 12, 2013 Hey, Sorry I didn't follow your other thread How old are you?
ThomasD Posted June 12, 2013 Posted June 12, 2013 How old are you? I believe she said "mid 20's". My initial guess was High School age - BIG "OOPS" on my part. 1
Author bobmarley Posted June 12, 2013 Author Posted June 12, 2013 MOST SUPERBLY AWESOME! File this away for future reference: your B/F MAY get special pleasure by surprising you with things. Sometimes his "surprises" may come at times, or situations, or in ways that you consider embarrassing, or dumb, or even inappropriate. He is probably NOT trying to be malicious. Accept the "gift" graciously, and critique the "package" or "wrapping" at another time. I hope you're ready for a vacation . . . Ha, that actually sounds right on. He is pretty good at surprising me too. He took me on a date on Sunday that was completely a surprise, and took great pleasure in doing so. And he's kind of a prankster, so it follows that he would love doing that And I am SO ready for this vacation. And I started my dream job yesterday, and got to play with my baby cousin for the first time yesterday...it was a perfect day, and I am still deliriously happy. 2
firstworldproblems Posted July 1, 2013 Posted July 1, 2013 Wow, you sound exactly like I was last year with my boy :-) Seriously, we hadn't been dating 5 months and definetly didn't say "I love You" when he invited me on his family spring break trip, a VERY nice trip. It was his parents, his sister and her fiance, and he and I who went. So: married 25 years, getting married in 3 months, and he and I!! ;-) We had me that christmas break, and were long-distance finishing school before the trip. Guess it was crazy going on a Fancy european vacation with a guy I barely knew!! But it worked out well, his sister and I get along really well, and there was not too much coupling up that made us uncomfortable. We just went with it and enjoyed it!!! We didn't say "i love you" till that summer. I initiated. I had been thinking about it for a while, and couldn't wait one day. We had been hanging out, and that summer evening he walked me out to my car as usual. As we were embracing, I said "I think I'm falling in love with you." He responded, "I love you." It made me so so super happy, I had no idea how much I wanted that till it happened. A little while after that, we were holding each other one night before bed, and he said, "can I ask you a question? Would you consider marrying me some day?" Honestly before that I hadn't thought about it at all, but I lay there considering it and of course, I already knew what a good man he is and thought that we would love each other more and more and I would consider it at a later date. A year after that, we are talking about it and fixing his house together to someday have that be our house. Being 23 and 24, we are not going to get married any time soon, but it is in the cards at some point. Let us know how it turns out :-) 2
ThomasD Posted July 1, 2013 Posted July 1, 2013 A little while after that, we were holding each other one night before bed, and he said, "can I ask you a question? Would you consider marrying me some day?" Honestly before that I hadn't thought about it at all, but I lay there considering it and of course, I already knew what a good man he is and thought that we would love each other more and more and I would consider it at a later date . . . Sounds a little like my wife and I. The decision to marry wasn't a monumental event, but more like a very natural result of the mental and emotional connections we were establishing. . . . A year after that, we are talking about it and fixing his house together to someday have that be our house. Being 23 and 24, we are not going to get married any time soon, but it is in the cards at some point. So why the wait? I think that in the U.S. the median age for first marriages is now in the upper 20's. However, observing my own kids, it seems that the more established they became as singles in their 20's, the more difficult it is to establish a true life-partnership marriage. 1
firstworldproblems Posted July 1, 2013 Posted July 1, 2013 ... So why the wait? I think that in the U.S. the median age for first marriages is now in the upper 20's. However, observing my own kids, it seems that the more established they became as singles in their 20's, the more difficult it is to establish a true life-partnership marriage. I think we are waiting for two reasons: --we are just young, and the general consensus is that we need to be careful. Waiting (until what we don't know) seems to be the smart idea. --I am going to be going back to school for a professional degree (hopefully!!) starting in the fall in a year, and we are not sure where or anything... Its a complicated stressful process. He also is uncertain about keeping the job he has or going towards another branch in his field. But otherwise, I'm not sure why we are waiting. A bunch of our friends around our age are getting married. We will have to talk about it. 2
ThomasD Posted July 4, 2013 Posted July 4, 2013 I see "marriage" as a life partnership between two people. It's a commitment to each other, to support each other, to help each other grow into the complete persons you can be, to form an "us" that's more than simply the sum of "me" plus "you". Once you agree on this, the next most important factor is to see your lives moving along compatible paths. Here's where you and your B/F need to talk. As you two individually pursue education, careers, houses, friends, etc, you may be inadvertently excluding the other - or at least starting down separate paths that will be difficult to merge in the future. Would he modify or postpone his career plans, to start establishing a life together with you? Do your education plans fit in with his expectations for employment and living location? Does he think about adding a wife to his life plans - or do you think of adding a husband to YOUR life plans - like you might add an accessory to a car, or add a piece of furniture to a room? Things like education, careers, lifestyles, family, etc, are not contradictory to marriage but the more you construct these things without marriage, the more difficult it may be to add marriage into the plans at a later time. My oldest son was over 30 when he married. The day before his wedding he said something very interesting. He said that it felt like he was finally able to start building something lasting, in partnership with his wife. That for the last decade or more he was just hanging out and killing time. That he wanted to be better prepared for this step in his life, but never knew how because he didn't know who would be his wife. This is a man who was established in his career, with a graduate degree behind him. Somebody who has organized and executed adventures that make me envious, and far overshadow anything I've done in a life twice as long as his. And now, at 31, he was getting married and just starting to seriously live his life? But a couple years previously I had noticed something about his accomplishments: his girlfriends and dating partners were always welcome - very welcome - to participate with him in whatever he was doing, but he never really created any plans or project jointly with them as equal partners. It was more like "she can join me", rather than "we have created this together". But in that moment when he talked about "building something important together", I think he figured out what marriage and life partnership is all about. His mother (my wife) and I are very hopeful for their marriage! 1
firstworldproblems Posted July 7, 2013 Posted July 7, 2013 We actually discussed it some more over the holiday, and are actually talking more seriously about time frame and other things now. Its exciting, but we try to stay realistic and grounded :-) I see "marriage" as a life partnership between two people. It's a commitment to each other, to support each other, to help each other grow into the complete persons you can be, to form an "us" that's more than simply the sum of "me" plus "you". I agree, but everyone says things like "find yourself, discover things, don't be held back by a boy or anything, don't let a boy drag you down" Not that I think getting married to a driven, smart, hard-working boy would drag me down, but thats just the 'word on the street' advice Once you agree on this, the next most important factor is to see your lives moving along compatible paths. Here's where you and your B/F need to talk. As you two individually pursue education, careers, houses, friends, etc, you may be inadvertently excluding the other - or at least starting down separate paths that will be difficult to merge in the future. I don't think our paths are diverging for the far future so much as they have a bit of swerving now. Now he is putting in many hours to work his way up, and I will be away at school for a while. But in the next 1-2 years, we will both have jobs that are relatively conducive to family life and being able to take long weekends. This is important to both of us. The house is actually bringing us together if anything. He catches himself saying "our" and "we" often, and though he owns it he seeks out my opinion on just about everything, and has been really listening to my opinions and suggestions. the one 'demand' I have for the house (dishwasher, I'm just not a perfect enough woman to wash all my dishes by hand) he has been thrilled to accomidate, even though it means a lot of extra work with making it fit in the kitchen. (one example) ....... Things like education, careers, lifestyles, family, etc, are not contradictory to marriage but the more you construct these things without marriage, the more difficult it may be to add marriage into the plans at a later time. I hadn't thought of it in that stark of a way. Of course people who get married later in life and have established households, lives, routines will have more issues initially meshing, but I hadn't thought that of course that starts young. .....a couple years previously I had noticed something about his accomplishments: his girlfriends and dating partners were always welcome - very welcome - to participate with him in whatever he was doing, but he never really created any plans or project jointly with them as equal partners. It was more like "she can join me", rather than "we have created this together". Funnily enough, very soon in our relationship we started projects together, took trips together, and did work together. At first it was more like "thanks for the help on MY project/thing" or "thanks for joining me on my thing, it was nice having you come along" and over the past year or so it usually turns out more like "lets work together on X today together so we can enjoy using it" or "I think we would enjoy doing X together." Like, right now we are restoring an airplane for us to both use when its done. It definetly started with "help me fix my airplane please" and has morphed into "if WE own this airplane in 20 years, we want it done X way" But in that moment when he talked about "building something important together", I think he figured out what marriage and life partnership is all about. His mother (my wife) and I are very hopeful for their marriage! Congratulations to your son! Best wishes for him and his wife! As I reflect on your thoughts, I realize that the boy and I are indeed sharing and prepping to be together. But I think some of our thoughts are more geared as: "lets improve to the point of having two fully competent people marry each other" and less: "we are not perfect but we will make it work and improve together". But I think we are coming around; the other day we were just saying "if you think about it too long or prep for it till you are perfect, you will never be 'ready' to get married." Now I have a question for you. You have kinda worn down many of my arguments to wait on marriage, the signs or things that would seem to deem a couple ready. What do you think are some things that mean a couple is ready to wed? 1
ThomasD Posted July 7, 2013 Posted July 7, 2013 . . . everyone says things like "find yourself, discover things, don't be held back by a boy or anything, don't let a boy drag you down" . . . There's certainly some truth there. The idea has been around for quite a while and I still haven't thought it through consistently and coherently. Ask again next week and I may give a different answer. Many of us who struggled at establishing fulfilling interpersonal relationships were commonly advised to "be yourself", which only underscored the question "Exactly who IS "myself"?". If you want to be philosophical about that advice, the right partner could just as well help you discover things about yourself, assist and encourage you to achieve things, etc, rather than "drag you down". (A rather trivial personal example that comes to mind: I would probably be much less knowledgeable and appreciative of serious music without my wife's coaxing me and exposing me to it.) When I look at that "street wisdom" carefully, I see some selfishness and perhaps egotism in its foundation. It's very focused on "me" and "myself", where the marriage I've experienced has had a lot of "us" in it. Not that I think getting married to a driven, smart, hard-working boy would drag me down, but thats just the 'word on the street' advice . . . Would being ". . . married to a driven, smart, hard-working boy . . . " encourage you to develop and be the best person you can - or make you a workaholic, materialistic, person focused on achievements and awards rather than personal and character values? . . . He catches himself saying "our" and "we" often . . . During the year we dated, my wife planted and tended a vegetable garden that (after canning and freezing) helped reduce the outlay for groceries during the first few months of marriage. She also started collecting, in one side of her room at home, many materials for setting up housekeeping as a couple. Her younger siblings teased her rather aggressively about these things, referring to them as "her 'OUR' garden" and the "her 'OUR' house stuff". Four decades later I can still get her to stick out her tongue at me by referring to the pair of tomato plants in the back yard as the "our garden". I hadn't thought of it in that stark of a way . . . . I hadn't thought that of course that starts young. Please believe me, I wasn't trying to be "stark" or "terrifying"! But I think it can be deeper than simply "I have (e.g., dishes, furniture, friends, church, schedule, neighborhood, etc) that I like, and HE has (dishes, furniture, friends, church, schedule, neighborhood, etc) that HE likes, and we have to work out some compromise.". There are mindsets and habits that have built and become attached to these things over the course of years, and now has to do some mental tearing down, remodeling, and reconstruction as you build lives and lifestyles based on "us". . . . the other day we were just saying "if you think about it too long or prep for it till you are perfect, you will never be 'ready' to get married." Getting married (as well as having kids) are always acts of faith that you will never be fully prepared for in a rational way. Part of it involves accepting the other person as he/she is, with both the hope of growth and improvement, and the acceptance of deterioration - and offering yourself as you are, with the intent of being the best possible partner, but knowing that you will disappoint your spouse in some ways. In the ancient and traditional Christian marriage vow, the short phrase " . . . for better or worse . . . " has very serious wisdom behind it. You have kinda worn down many of my arguments to wait on marriage . . . I WORE YOU DOWN??? Heaven forbid - Illegitimi non carborundum! As somebody who made a similar journey many years ago, and has compared my experience to other travelers, I hoped to give you the benefit of what I learned and alert you to potential hazards. I don't necessarily think you are on the verge of making a grave mistake. What do you think are some things that mean a couple is ready to wed? Now you're asking me to do something far above my pay grade. OK, I already listed a couple of them. You two need to agree on exactly what marriage is. I see "marriage" as a life partnership between two people. It's a commitment to each other, to support each other, to help each other grow into the complete persons you can be, to form an "us" that's more than simply the sum of "me" plus "you". Others have different views: a convenient financial arrangement (with or without sexual favors) based on sharing accommodations; a social status symbol to meet the expectations of family or business associates; a temporary alliance in effect until certain objectives (e.g., children) are accomplished; etcYou two need to be at least compatible, if not in agreement, on the handful of factors at the core of your personal life philosophy. In previous centuries this might have been listed as "religious compatibility". Religion, perhaps even politics, may be part of this. It includes things like character qualities (truthfulness, ambition, faithfulness etc), the desire for and role of children, and other factors that each individual perceives as "the meaning of life".There must be some fundamental attraction. I suspect 95% of the people on this Forum will look at "attraction" and think in some combination of "physical appearance" and "chemistry" (whatever "chemistry" means!). Look around you at successful long-term marriages - probably between folks your parents' age and older. You'll see beautiful people, ugly people, tall people, short people, smart people, dumb people, athletic people, klutzy people, etc, etc, - yet they are all married, in many and varied combinations. Ask yourself, "What did he/she ever see in her/him?". (And if you are REAL brave, ask the couple themselves. Only re-phrase the question as, "How did you two get together?".) You will find that "attraction" takes many different forms; physical characteristics are often significant, but not the major factor drawing couples into long-term relationships. I happen to agree with Dr Jacob Bronowski, who argued over a generation ago in "The Ascent of Man", that comparable intelligence and intellectual ability is as significant as physical appearance (if not more so) for long-term success. (In many cultures, brokered or even totally arranged marriages are common if not the norm. It amazes me that many of these marriages are quite fulfilling and dedicated, and the couples actually develop attraction as the marriage progresses over time. On the other hand many are disappointing or even tragic so I definitely prefer an initial attraction rather than working to develop it.)You need to see your lives moving along compatible paths. Exactly what this means depends, of course, on how you define marriage. We have already discussed this in some depth.You two should be in agreement on finances and wealth. It's often stated that money problems cause more marriage breakups than infidelity. As a starter you need to agree on a viable plan for how you will support yourselves. (As you might guess by now, in my marriage the money, possessions, and debts are essentially all "ours", rather than "mine" and "hers".) This could mean that one (or both) of you need to put your "financial house" in good order before you marry. This could mean reducing debts; eliminating frivolous spending; starting a regular saving and investment plan; obtaining necessary insurance; starting to make regular contributions to charities or worthy causes; etc.You should agree on the role of sex and want to have sex - lots of it - with each other. I'll bet the great majority on this Forum would have placed "sexual compatibility" much higher on the list, perhaps something to be established even before considering a relationship. My wife and I chose to be wedding-night virgins, and had a lot of fun learning to be "compatible" with each other and please each other. Even so - we knew that we lusted for each other well before we married. There are probably a small number of guys who can take it or leave it when it comes to sex, but if you think that you will "do your wifely duty" and "allow him" to have sex from time to time, you are probably setting up for arguments and failure. Good marriages are MUCH MORE than good sex, but disappointing or unfulfilling sex can be the trigger for more serious marital problems. OK, how did I do? What do you think I missed? You're probably quite pleased with yourself for laying this tough question on me but I hope the follow-ups are a little easier. It's going to be several days before I can put time into answering them! 2
firstworldproblems Posted July 13, 2013 Posted July 13, 2013 Wow, that's a pretty through list!!! Very impressive, and I thank you for your time and thoughts. The boy and I have been discussing these things as well as others. We have been gathering info from couples we know about their marriage as well- what people find hard and what they fight or disagree on. These things bring up great conversation and sometimes find difference, sometimes find commonalities. But it is very exciting for us to have those conversations and get comfortable talking about potentially hard topics together. ...the right partner could just as well help you discover things about yourself, assist and encourage you to achieve things, etc, rather than "drag you down".... I see that point as quite valid. I have some friends who keep me honest about exercising, some friends at work who eat right together with me, and in those relationships Would being ". . . married to a driven, smart, hard-working boy . . . " encourage you to develop and be the best person you can - or make you a workaholic, materialistic, person focused on achievements and awards rather than personal and character values? I noted those qualities because they address what I feel are peoples objections. He is actually the more grounded, spiritual, special half of us. Very good boy- well respected at work, church, everywhere he goes. So I don't think we will go morally bankrupt ;-) ....Four decades later I can still get her to stick out her tongue at me by referring to the pair of tomato plants in the back yard as the "our garden". This is adorable :-) This is what most people want when they marry, I feel like. having that someone who you can poke at and have special secrets with from long ago :-) Please believe me, I wasn't trying to be "stark" or "terrifying"! .... No, that was a poor choice of words on my part. What I meant to construe is I just hadn't realized how quickly that complacency comes about, early in your life. And I hadn't realized just how much of a pattern you develop so quickly. I have a friend who got married immediately after college, and she and her husband don't know a working day that they didn't start together or come home to each other. In a way that (more old-fashioned) way of doing things is sensical, making life patterns together so you don't have to change your patterns and habits to include someone new. Getting married (as well as having kids) are always acts of faith that you will never be fully prepared for in a rational way. ... I couldn't agree more. Especially about the kids part!!! getting married only has the potential to ruin 2 adult lives, but having children is even more scary as you could ruin them as well ;-) Only kidding, but really at some point you just have to hope and pray and take the plunge! I WORE YOU DOWN??? Heaven forbid - Illegitimi non carborundum! As somebody who made a similar journey many years ago, and has compared my experience to other travelers, I hoped to give you the benefit of what I learned and alert you to potential hazards. I don't necessarily think you are on the verge of making a grave mistake. No, again I made a poor choice of words. You by no means are discouraging. Quite the opposite actually. I meant that you have pointed out some problems in the way I have seen things, and made other things more clear. We are just still figuring out what it all means and I am firming up my questions and beliefs about getting married, so it is great to just have a knowledgeable voice who has been through it say that some of the problems I see may not be such a big deal. OK, how did I do? What do you think I missed? You're probably quite pleased with yourself for laying this tough question on me but I hope the follow-ups are a little easier. It's going to be several days before I can put time into answering them! Wow, very inclusive list. I agree that an optimal marriage will have elements of all these things. The way you always bring it back to defining marriage together is key. For example, some compatibility differences some couples have are acceptable because they may not place such a premium on doing things together and sharing hobbies and such. My man and I have very similar hobbies and interests, enjoy doing things and working together, and spending lots of hobbie time together. Another couple we know seem very loving and happy, but have very dissimilar interests- when they have free time they often split up and do their own things, but always get together over other things in their life. I see how their relationship holds very different values on just day-to-day activities. I do have one possible addendum: a couple should know something about each others moods, quirks, and conflict styles and be comfortable with that being OK. I know a couple who I have seen "blow up" together about something for a few minutes, duke it out, and then come to an agreement within a few minutes. When asked, they said they usually fought like that, and it was better for them to get it out in the open and be done with it. Some people are brooders who you have to probe out what is bothering them--that can work I suppose, but a couple should be open to each others styles or open to the changing dynamic over time. My boy and I are pretty low-key and most things don't bother us, so if we say something at all we know its more of a problem than we are immediately letting on. We can agree to disagree quite easily. That doesn't work for some of my friends, but to each their own. My mom is big on knowing the little annoyances he does, and acknowledging them. My parents are still married but unhappily, and there were red flags that my mom sees looking back now. Some of them are the little things that she thought she could change out of him. I ask you to follow-up, then: I get the feeling from you that you place an emphasis on changing and growing together as people in your marriage, spurred on by your spouse. I see this as a positive thing. However, I see and hear about this in the extreme with "project girlfriends" and very controlling wives. What do you see as the "acceptable line" of changing your spouse?? like for example, what do you think would be acceptable to ask people to change in a marriage: --cleanliness habits (dishes etc) --mannerisms/sayings/quirky things --eating habits/diets --contact habits (how often you talk or are sweet to each other) --political habits --spending habits --public affection habits --outspokenness/shyness What do you think couples should ask of their other half, and what do you think is crossing the line to want to change? I have my own thoughts on this, I wonder about yours :-) Thanks for the good dialogue, its nice to have a sounding board for me to throw some thoughts against.
soccerrprp Posted July 13, 2013 Posted July 13, 2013 bobmarley, I am so very happy and proud of you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 1
Author bobmarley Posted August 13, 2013 Author Posted August 13, 2013 bobmarley, I am so very happy and proud of you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Thank you!!! An update for those who are interested: We are madly in love, the vacation went great, and we have talked about marriage, although not in any concrete detail. 1
Recommended Posts