Asking a bartender out

June 14, 2013

How do YOU distinguish between being in a real "dating" relationship and being a booty call for some guy?

By not being available at his convenience. By not answering late night phone calls or texts. By not accepting that he come over or that I go over and keep him "company" when he no longer has anyone else to hang out with. I know what a booty call is and I know how to tell if someone is using me as booty call. That is exactly why I didn't answer his late night texts/clear invitations for sex and his phone call at 10pm the night before he asked me to have dinner with him ; he left a voice mssg instead and asked if I wanted to go to dinner the following evening (I took your advice and I now finally have voice mail on my phone, unlike last time

). I mean, I wasn't born yesterday. I am not that stupid. This guy never really chased after me really, even from the start. I mean, sure, he gave me his number, but even that was a bit of a chicken move, leaving the ball in my court, instead of getting my number and then calling me...

June 14, 2013

And he just texted me, at 11pm. "Not still up, are you?" So he had a 6 hour long dinner with co-workers? k... whatever. I'm not replying to ANY texts from him from now on, unless he shows interest in more than sex, by asking me out for a proper date.

June 14, 2013

And he just texted me, at 11pm. "Not still up, are you?" So he had a 6 hour long dinner with co-workers? k... whatever. I'm not replying to ANY texts from him from now on, unless he shows interest in more than sex, by asking me out for a proper date.

You need to tell him that. If you didn't tell him the other night, that you wanted to date him, and wouldn't want to have sex with him if he was seeing other women, then he technically hasn't done anything wrong.

I do get you where your ex is concerned, but not this guy. You had sex with him, knowing that he was most likely only looking for sex.

June 14, 2013

You need to tell him that. If you didn't tell him the other night, that you wanted to date him, and wouldn't want to have sex with him if he was seeing other women, then he technically hasn't done anything wrong.

I do get you where your ex is concerned, but not this guy. You had sex with him, knowing that he was most likely only looking for sex.

I DID tell him that. We talked after we had sex. He asked me why I didn't pick him up the first night we met. I told him because I thought he was a nice and smart guy and I wanted to date him. That's exactly what I told him, word for word.

June 14, 2013

NMJ, the thing about having sex with people you just met is that you have no idea what they are looking for, who they really are, what their lives are like. You might think you know from your bar and dinner talk, but you don't. No one does. So if you're an adult woman, as you claim you are, you need to go into having sex with strangers as a one-off kind of thing, with your eyes open, and OWNING YOUR OWN PART OF IT. You are making yourself look like the jerk here when you do it and then pretend to be a victim of a "douchebag" because he does it.

People who are seriously looking for relationships usually choose to take their time when they're really interested in someone before getting into a sexual situation, because once you have sex, too many cards are on the table and there is no backtracking. So, it's either now you're in a relationship and accountable to each other for your personal business (which is where you've already gone to with this fellow, and I'm sure he'd be blown away if he realized this! And, he'd run, run, run away fast! ), or you're not. If you're not - there are 2 choices. Go on having casual sex with no strings (something might happen, but know it's unlikely), or never see the person again.

Certainly, people who fall into bed when they first meet DO end up in relationships. It's not common at all. I'm over 50 and I have only known personally of it happening one time (my own daughter! but it was a very unhealthy relationship the whole 5 years it lasted). It's not that you are supposed to hold out, or "make them wait." That's lame.

It's called taking the time to find out if it's a good thing.

And if you don't feel like taking the time, don't moan and whine because you find yourself in a casual sex / booty call / FWB type of situation, because you created it. The guy did NOTHING wrong here. He probably thinks you were 100% down with it.

One final note, and then I will leave you alone for a long time:

Serious, good men who would love to have a relationship are not going to be interested in girls whose current lifestyle revolves around getting drunk in bars and going home with guys. Especially married ones. That alone would get you "nexted" by most great guys. Not because of a double standard. Those guys aren't drinking in bars by themselves and going home with strangers, either. You don't match up with them right now. So if you want men in your life who don't do "douchy" stuff, stop doing it yourself.

Even though I know my posts are kind of mean, I feel terrible for you and I wish I could shake some sense into you. What you really need to do is to develop some friendships and a social life that has nothing to do with bars and sex for a while. If you possibly have a drinking problem, face it. Maybe get some help to look at your unhealthy patterns and put them all away, so you can have a good life with good people in it.

Good luck to you.

June 14, 2013

OP... I'm going to follow up on what I mentioned in another thread... as it pertains to this one...

Don't believe the baloney that guys pitch here saying that it doesn't matter if they have sex with a girl on the first few dates... whether it ends up in a relationship or not. That's just them trying to look all cool and open-minded... a lot of them are either concealing the fact or maybe even unaware of all the ways they 'knew' a particular woman before they actually had sex or went on a date.

Finally, keep in mind that a lot of guys here need to convince people they are studs who can get a get a girl to sleep with them on the first date... no matter how long they knew her in advance. They aren't going to share that here...

Long story short, don't buy the BS propaganda (especially from men) saying that it doesn't matter. It absolutely does.

Reality is that most don't end up that way. This is why I tell women not to even bother with a guy they happen to hook up with early... Not only that, I think that if a guy really was looking for a relationship and ended up getting dumped by girls over and over because HE had sex soon...

well maybe, just maybe... he'd change his behavior too... and the world would be a lot better place if BOTH people took responsibility for themselves and didn't leave it up to the other person to manage.

Finally... you do need to find a way to let your words and actions line up. If you are looking for a relationship, then demonstrate that to the men you meet. Dump the ones who try to put the moves on you in the first few dates and who don't exhibit relationship-like behavior.

You might be alone for awhile. And it may be hard. But you will feel a lot better about yourself and will meet a much better class of men.

Good luck!

June 14, 2013

NMJ,

Nothing I say is intended as an insult. But, given this thread and the previous ones, I have to say you are very naive about men and dating. You said you were from a very socially conservative family, no? And lost your virginity at 29? And you are what now, 30, 31?

So you are wading in the very deep end of the pool when it comes to dating. You should really take what other female members are telling you to heart, the ones who have been there and done that, and have the heartache to prove it. They are giving you very good advice.

I think you are hurting from what you experienced with your ex, who took advantage of your inexperience and exploited you, as well as taking advantage of your giving nature, which you now don't want to have anymore. Because that giving nature ended up getting you hurt.

I totally understand, as I had to go through that experience too, after coming out of a long relationship through my 20's and experiencing the (confusing) world of dating in my early 30's. I got taken advantage of too, as I was too trusting not just with men and relationships but some friendships in general.

I would suggest taking a break from men and dating in general, and possibly seek counseling to deal with how your family of origin (FOO) and that dynamic plays into your romantic expectations now. You need to heal from your last relationship before you can move on.

I sincerely wish you the best of luck.

PS you might hate me for bringing this up, but the amount you say you can drink AND walk home means you are either a) a problem drinker or alcoholic or b) taking extreme risks by drinking that amount of alcohol and walking home alone. (I am referring to the "six rums, several shots, and beer" part of your post. I love my wine but I could never injest that much and walk home safely. I would be passed out. And yes, I have high tolerance too. From a lot of past drinking!)

June 14, 2013

Don't believe the baloney that guys pitch here saying that it doesn't matter if they have sex with a girl on the first few dates... whether it ends up in a relationship or not. That's just them trying to look all cool and open-minded...

Maybe, but that is just pathetic, and the double standards make me want to throw up.

I think that if a guy really was looking for a relationship and ended up getting dumped by girls over and over because HE had sex soon...

well maybe, just maybe... he'd change his behavior too... and the world would be a lot better place if BOTH people took responsibility for themselves and didn't leave it up to the other person to manage.

Yes, the world would be a better place if both parties to the act took responsibility rather than one side thinking the other is a slut because she slept with him. It takes two to tango. It's so ridiculous. So a guy who had sex with a woman on the first date, thinks of himself as datable material, but not the girl he just screwed? Uh, what? Anyway, I doubt he'd change his mind, if he were dumped for that.. Most men would probably just claim that she was a slut, and was looking for a one night stand, was never interested in a relationship. That's how f*cked up most men are, really. Entitled, narcissistic douchebags who need to take a good long look in the mirror.

Dump the ones who try to put the moves on you in the first few dates and who don't exhibit relationship-like behavior.

Thanks for the advice. I have already put this last guy I went out with, on ignore.

June 14, 2013

OP, for what it's worth, most women I know don't consider a guy who constantly sleeps around as LTR material either.

I do think you are receiving quite a bit more flak than some of the other male posters who happily admit to having ONS, but I'm not sure if the reason is your gender, or the fact that those posters are genuinely not currently interested in a R so they aren't really sabotaging themselves. Probably both. At any rate, while some of it may be unfair, I think there is a lot of truth to the fact that having sex on the first date doesn't usually lead to a relationship.

You should do whatever makes you happy, but sometimes it is worth investing in the long-term.

June 14, 2013

Yes, the world would be a better place if both parties to the act took responsibility rather than one side thinking the other is a slut because she slept with him. It takes two to tango. It's so ridiculous. So a guy who had sex with a woman on the first date, thinks of himself as datable material, but not the girl he just screwed? Uh, what? Anyway, I doubt he'd change his mind, if he were dumped for that.. Most men would probably just claim that she was a slut, and was looking for a one night stand, was never interested in a relationship. That's how f*cked up most men are, really. Entitled, narcissistic douchebags who need to take a good long look in the mirror.

Men get judged for slutty behaviour too by some women. I think those of us that want healthy relationships judge people who just go from one bang to another.

I briefly dated what you call a 'modeliser' almost, most of his exes were models (though clearly not all as I wasn't). It was an interesting experiment and I never slept with him because he was a slut. He went out with some very good looking girls but also with prostitutes. Who wants someone who has so little respect for himself? Not me.

June 14, 2013

Maybe, but that is just pathetic, and the double standards make me want to throw up.

It makes a lot of people want to throw up.

So a guy who had sex with a woman on the first date, thinks of himself as datable material, but not the girl he just screwed? Uh, what?

Absolutely. This is also why I tell women who are looking for a relationship and choose to wait... to also avoid the men who have slept around a lot. Their game is to sleep around a lot and do damage, then they think they can find a so-called 'nice' girl when they finally want to settle down... for those guys... loyalty is a one way street. She has all the loyalty... he has none. AVOID THESE MEN AT ALL COSTS.

The easiest way to avoid them is getting to know them first. They don't hide their histories or how they feel about other women. Or, they couch their words in a lot of vague terms and dodge here and there about what they are looking for. Watch their actions though. That is key. If he's pushing for sex ASAP... it is better than likely he IS a douchebag. If you just want sex, sleep with him and dump him... if you want a relationship... dump him before it even gets that far.

Anyway, I doubt he'd change his mind, if he were dumped for that.. Most men would probably just claim that she was a slut, and was looking for a one night stand, was never interested in a relationship.

Maybe, maybe not. There are few guys on this thread complaining about how all girls want to do is sleep with them but don't want to be in a relationship with them. The one time I had a ONS when I was much younger, the guy was really hurt. It's why *I* don't do it (because I don't want it done to me)... but also why I tell women who want relationships to cut their losses if they DO get carried away.

Also, I think it is way past time for men who want relationships to start demonstrating some discretion on their own and act like they own their penis... rather than passive slaves to it. Seriously. If he can't, then he's not 'relationship material' either.

Thanks for the advice. I have already put this last guy I went out with, on ignore.

Good!

June 14, 2013

Men get judged for slutty behaviour too by some women. I think those of us that want healthy relationships judge people who just go from one bang to another.

Sure. Women judge men who CLEARLY sleep around. But sleeping with a date on the first date does not mean a man sleeps around (it sure doesn't mean a man might sleep with EVERY girl he takes out on a date), and most women would not think THAT. They might think a man who hangs out with a lot of women, parties /goes clubbing a lot, etc., might be slutty, but not a man who might sleep with her after a first date. Not most women anyway. And anyway, those that would not want to continue dating a guy after he makes a move on his first date, are usually just scared/worried for their own security/are too worried about STDs, etc. Most men, in my experience, do not worry too much about STDs. Also, women who would be turned off by that sort of sex-after-first-date behaviour, would not take him back home in the first place, unlike a man, who would not say no to a shag, but then judge her for it, while still considering HIMSELF to be dating material...

Edited June 14, 2013 by NoMoreJerks

June 14, 2013

Sure. Women judge men who CLEARLY sleep around. But sleeping with a date on the first date does not mean a man sleeps around, and most women would not think THAT.

then those 'most women' are naive

They might think a man who hangs out with a lot of women, parties /goes clubbing a lot, etc., might be slutty, but not a man who might sleep with her after a first date. Not most women anyway.

Sounds like you project your own views on 'most women'

And anyway, those that would not want to continue dating a guy after he makes a move on his first date, are usually just scared/worried for their own security/are too worried about STDs, etc. Most men, in my experience, do not worry too much about STDs. Also, women who would be turned off by that sort of sex-after-first-date behaviour, would not take him back home in the first place, unlike a man, who would not say no to a shag, but then judge her for it, while still considering HIMSELF to be dating material...

I think both sexes can be very judgemental. Where I found less judgement is the younger generation: ie those in their early 20s currently. I dated men half my age and I found them the least judgemental of all.

June 14, 2013

Sure. Women judge men who CLEARLY sleep around. But sleeping with a date on the first date does not mean a man sleeps around (it sure doesn't mean a man might sleep with EVERY girl he takes out on a date), and most women would not think THAT.

Not so sure about this...

My experience has been very much the opposite, and given the fact that I grew up in possibly one of the most sexist cultures, that says a lot...

June 14, 2013

Not so sure about this...

My experience has been very much the opposite, and given the fact that I grew up in possibly one of the most sexist cultures, that says a lot...

Actually, women in overly-sexist cultures are conditioned to think that way, BECAUSE they are led to believe that a woman who has sex on the first date, is slutty. It's not because they think of the man as slutty, but that they think they are disrespecting themselves and hurting their own reputation by having sex with a guy on the first date. It's totally a reputation/honour thing. Men get away with it, though. How many men get their reputations tarnished because they go on multiple dates and sleep with them? Or because they routinely go to see prostitutes? I know for a fact that this happens a lot in Thailand, for example (Thai men visiting prostitutes, etc.)

June 14, 2013

Regardless, though, the point remains : women who would be turned off by that sort of sex-after-first-date behaviour, would NOT take him back home in the first place, unlike a man, who would not say no to a shag, but then judge her for it, while still considering HIMSELF to be dating material... At least put your money where your mouth is..

June 14, 2013

Actually, women in overly-sexist cultures are conditioned to think that way, BECAUSE they are led to believe that a woman who has sex on the first date, is slutty. It's not because they think of the man as slutty, but that they think they are disrespecting themselves and hurting their own reputation by having sex with a guy on the first date.

You're not getting my point. My point is that even in such a culture, it's common for women with options to not consider 'womanizers' (their term for male sluts) as LTR material. Even if they aren't asked for sex on the first date and don't have it - they simply consider a relationship with these men as off the table.

And being 'caught' visiting a prostitute is a huge reputation tarnisher, tbh, possibly even more so than in Western cultures. Politicians and high-ranking career men have lost their jobs over it. So no, I don't think that 'most' women are happy to date men who are known to sleep around. Obviously, dishonesty/secrecy can and does happen, and is not just limited to a gender or a culture.

The fact is that you can complain about double standards all you like, but: 1) you are contributing to them by your own CHOICE of being okay with considering a relationship with men who are having casual sex (caused by your erroneous assumption that most women are, perhaps), and 2) the cause and effect remains the same. Men can consider themselves 'dating material' all they like, but what really defines whether or not they ARE 'dating material' are women's choices. Of which you are one.

As I said before, you are an adult and you deserve the right to do as you please without being harangued for it. But the cause and effect remains, and all the ignoring in the world will not make it go away.

Edited June 14, 2013 by Elswyth

June 14, 2013

Even if they aren't asked for sex on the first date and don't have it - they simply consider a relationship with these men as off the table.

If I knew a man sleeps around, I wouldn't consider him relationship material either. That was NEVER the point. The point IS, however, that sleeping with a man after a first date doesn't mean you sleep with every man you date, and it definitely doesn't make one a slut. Women in the east, who might not date a man if he offered to have sex on the first date, wouldn't do so not because they think he's slutty, but because they are concerned for their reputation/honour. Having so many immigrant friends from conservative/male-dominated/sexist countries, I can say with the utmost confidence that 99% of the time, THIS is the rationale.

1) you are contributing to them by your own CHOICE of being okay with considering a relationship with men who are having casual sex

I have relationship with men who have casual sex? Where did you get that from?

And being 'caught' visiting a prostitute is a huge reputation tarnisher, tbh, possibly even more so than in Western cultures. Politicians and high-ranking career men have lost their jobs over it.

Oh give me a break. I know for a fact that in Thailand, men are just assumed to go to prostitutes and women "deal with it." They even do it when they are married, a lot of the time with the woman's knowledge. Also, half of the politicians in Thailand are bar owners , and by bars I mean, brothels...

June 14, 2013

OP, for what it's worth, most women I know don't consider a guy who constantly sleeps around as LTR material either.

I do think you are receiving quite a bit more flak than some of the other male posters who happily admit to having ONS,

Speaking for myself - If I EVER see a post where a guy is bragging about sleeping around and then turning it all back on the girls he slept with and denigrating their characters, I give MUCH MORE flack than I have here. As most of you know and have seen many times from me. And if he was bragging about how one of them was married? Run for cover, dudes!

It's not the sexual behavior. It's the judgement and "blame" cast on the sex partners who are merely participating in the activities. If they are a slut or a douche, so what. If you didn't care to find out about them beforehand, or if you DID find out and carried on anyway - IT'S ON YOU, NOT THEM.

I don't have a double standard. I've given this OP more slack (not flack) for her identical behavior because I see how wounded she is, which many of the guys who post this stuff conceal.

June 14, 2013

You and I could argue til the cows come home about Eastern culture - despite the fact that I believe I'm much more familiar with a broader range of it, which isn't limited to the seedy parts of Thailand (rather than the narrow view that those who do not actually live there perceive from hearsay, which by human nature typically focuses on extremes) - but that isn't the point of all of this.

I do not believe that sleeping with a man on the first date makes someone 'a slut', immoral, wrong, etc, per se. However, several men and women, from various cultures, have come here to tell you that it does decrease your chances of a LTR. You have rebuffed every single one. I don't think you truly believe that those people are wrong, because you have had much to vent about the 'double standard' towards women who have sex very early on.

I guess, in conclusion, that you can do whatever you like. Know that the responses towards you here haven't all been due to 'double standards', though, but rather based on the simple advice that, whether you like it or not, you might be contributing to your own frustrations. I am genuinely not trying to pile on you, but it does get frustrating to hear someone being their worst enemy.

Out of curiousity, I recall you mentioning that all the men you have slept with have been rather selfish in bed and didn't demonstrate much care and effort towards your orgasm. What do you get from sleeping with them on the first date, in that case?

June 14, 2013

Speaking for myself - If I EVER see a post where a guy is bragging about sleeping around and then turning it all back on the girls he slept with and denigrating their characters, I give MUCH MORE flack than I have here. As most of you know and have seen many times from me. And if he was bragging about how one of them was married? Run for cover, dudes!

It's not the sexual behavior. It's the judgement and "blame" cast on the sex partners who are merely participating in the activities. If they are a slut or a douche, so what. If you didn't care to find out about them beforehand, or if you DID find out and carried on anyway - IT'S ON YOU, NOT THEM.

I don't have a double standard. I've given this OP more slack (not flack) for her identical behavior because I see how wounded she is, which many of the guys who post this stuff conceal.

I wasn't referring to you. I've certainly never seen you indulge in double standards.

June 14, 2013

Quote:

1) you are contributing to them by your own CHOICE of being okay with considering a relationship with men who are having casual sex

I have relationship with men who have casual sex? Where did you get that from?

Um … this guy we're talking about. You hoped for a relationship, but you (and he) had casual sex. What about the so-called ex who was sleeping around with "whores" constantly? Is that not casual sex?

So far, you seem to exclusively seek relationships with men who have casual sex. And then, you hate on them because they have casual sex.

You have an extreme lack of self-awareness, or maybe it's just profound denial.

Whoops. I promised I'd be leaving you alone.

My major hot button is blaming and refusal to take accountability. I point my finger at myself for those things even more than I do towards others. I don't even think I'd be alive today if I had not stopped blaming (even those who seriously harmed and abused me) and started being accountable for my own choices, actions and their results / consequences. In my case, I don't think I could have done it without the help of a 12 step program, but I'm sure there are other ways. I imagine all of them involve realizing that what a person is doing is NOT WORKING; then, seeking and accepting help

And I do realize that this is not about me and my hot button, but about you. The thing is that your, my, or anyone's situation and whole life cannot ever change for the better as long as the person refuses to quit blaming other people and the world for their messes, and to become fully accountable for all the ways they contribute to them. Usually we learn that we've been the major contributors, once childhood is behind us.

In all your posts since you've been here, you've deftly avoided taking ANY responsibility for your troubles aside from "I gave him another chance." Which is a passive aggressive way of, again, avoiding your responsibility, since you had all the knowledge you needed, and more, and still chose to go back. A lot.

Most of us do stuff like that, NMJ. But ALL of us need to look within ourselves and change ourselves if we don't want to KEEP doing stuff like that all our lives.

This is not about men and what disappointing douches they mostly are, or unfair double standards, and nobody's doing you any good by bolstering this in your threads, if they would like to help you. This is about your choices and the effects they have on your own life and happiness.

June 14, 2013

Out of curiousity, I recall you mentioning that all the men you have slept with have been rather selfish in bed and didn't demonstrate much care and effort towards your orgasm. What do you get from sleeping with them on the first date, in that case?

I've only slept with three men. One was my ex (totally selfish in bed, never cared one bit about satisfying me), the other two were ONS (the last guy, it was after a dinner date, but I am calling it a ONS because that's what it seems to have been). Those 2 guys I had ONS with, they were not selfish at all. The last one was doing everything to please me. Total opposite of my ex. The sex was good, and we clicked while having dinner, but I think he just wasn't looking for a relationship in the first place, just some company and sex. Which is fine. To each their own. But I am not going to let him treat me as a booty call when I do not want to become one. His last message was last night, at 11pm, asking me, if I was still up. Clearly, if I had responded, he would've thought I was up for a booty call or that I was at his convenience. I did reply this morning , though, to let him know that I wasn't actually asleep when he texted me. I told him I was having a quiet night in, watching TV (which is true). I think I made it clear enough that I am not his booty call. He replied a few hours later, saying: "Cool, I'm headed to Vancouver and the States for next week. Have a nice weekend!" I think he pretty much realized he had overplayed his hand and is now acting like he doesn't care. I am happy with the way I played this, considering that I had sex with him on the first date and he kept suggesting sexual encounters. Clearly, this man was not looking for a relationship in the first place. He probably thought, if she is willing to give me what I want, It's a moot point to ask her to dine with me.. I can just skip that part, and just call her up and see if she's up for sex, once I have nothing better to do with my time. Of course, if I had not had sex after the first "date", he would've taken me out and paid for my dinner -- all I would've gotten out of it was some free meals. If I refused to have sex after a few times, he would've bailed, and if I had, he would've turned me into a booty call THEN. It was bound to happen anyway. With people who have made up their minds about what they want, you just can't "dine your way into a relationship". Sex or no sex on first date, he won't be any more interested in getting to know you.

June 14, 2013

What about the so-called ex who was sleeping around with "whores" constantly? Is that not casual sex?

What? I did not know my ex was sleeping around with whores. He was going to Thailand, and went to bars where there were whores, but I did not know for a fact that he slept with any (he kept insisting he hadn't), though I suspected he had. I had my evidence, though, when I saw pictures and videos of his whore-mistress on his phone, though, when he came to visit me (I kept convincing myself that if he had chosen to come visit ME instead of go to Thailand, maybe it was a step forward; and he kept telling me he loved me and missed me when we weren't together). I checked his phone while he was asleep. He also had "Bangkok Pimp" as one of his contacts, in addition to 2 girls' numbers. I confronted him and he said he had broken up with her, because he'd found out she had a kid. And he made a huge deal about me having snooped on him, rather than the fact that he had been caught cheating. Anyway,I was in bits. And let me tell you, 6 months ago, I would not have confronted him if I had found out he had really cheated, because I was so attached to him. But I have come a long way since then, and I did confront him, and I did end things. I realize now that I should've put him out of my life for good from the very start, but it's easy to say that when you have hindsight.

June 14, 2013

Yes, from that account, I agree that that man in particular wasn't looking for a R. So did you enjoy the sex in itself, despite the fact that it didn't lead to a R? If you did, then it was just fun sex. Why the need to complain about those men not wanting more?

Given your latest explanation, I can empathize with why you wanted sex with those men. There is definitely the desire, if you haven't previously experienced a good lover, to want to experience such. It's fine to want it, even to indulge in it, but there may come a time when you may need to choose between instant gratification of desire and a LTR.

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