I'm not as much of a "nice guy" as I thought I was.

June 9, 2013

I do have some "nice guy" tendencies I'm still working on but looking back I realize that I'm not as much of a nice guy as I thought I was. On the 3rd date with the last woman I dated I asked her what she looked for in a relationship (In general I wasn't asking her to be in an R) and she said she wanted to date around and didn't know what she wanted and I respected her honesty. TBS as soon as she told me that I told her that I wasn't there for an ego boost (she was not too long removed from a long R) and that I was ok with dating around but sex is where I draw the line with multi dating. IMO a nice guy wouldn't have said that. We had a couple more dates than it turend into a dram fest so we stopped dating. Also, another woman I dated about a year ago had me walking on eggshells becuase she never initated contact and she ingored a text and call so a couple days later called out on it and told her I've never dated a woman where three dates in she's yet to initiate contact. About a week later we sheduled another date but there was miscommunication between us so it never happened. So like I said I'm still working on some things but I'm not as much of a nice guy that I thought I was. I also learned something else about me which will help me huge! Questions, comments, related experiences welcome.

June 9, 2013

I'm not completely sure what you are saying. You're not such a nice guy because you want sex? Is that it?

I got seriously called out last week by a girl I've been seeing for ages. She said some things to me that I know, after contemplation, are actually really true about me, but I'd not examined before - and yes, they are not 'nice'.

I think its ok to be nice ... I've been this way most of my life, but 'nice' doesn't mean, or shouldn't mean, denying who you are as a person. If you want or need a lot of sex, then trying to be the 'nice guy' who doesn't need sex and is happy to wait is just going to frustrate you and this will come out - women will see it.

Be nice ... but be true to yourself too. You can't live for others, only for yourself. Let others decide for themselves if they want to be with the person you _really_ are. If thats a guy who wants sex, then don't be shy about it, but be nice, not forceful about it.

There is a reason, in my view, for the "clichéd 3 dates to sex" thing. If a woman really desires you, and you've had at least 3 decent dates, good long ones where you can talk and get to know each other, then its not unreasonable to think that a sexual liaison is in the air. Everyone is different, some guys and girls will want to wait longer, but really, in my view, both people will already know if there is a sexual attraction by the end of the third date. After that, its more about social convention or personal/religious or other constructs.

June 9, 2013

I'm not completely sure what you are saying. You're not such a nice guy because you want sex? Is that it?

I got seriously called out last week by a girl I've been seeing for ages. She said some things to me that I know, after contemplation, are actually really true about me, but I'd not examined before - and yes, they are not 'nice'.

I think its ok to be nice ... I've been this way most of my life, but 'nice' doesn't mean, or shouldn't mean, denying who you are as a person. If you want or need a lot of sex, then trying to be the 'nice guy' who doesn't need sex and is happy to wait is just going to frustrate you and this will come out - women will see it.

Be nice ... but be true to yourself too. You can't live for others, only for yourself. Let others decide for themselves if they want to be with the person you _really_ are. If thats a guy who wants sex, then don't be shy about it, but be nice, not forceful about it.

There is a reason, in my view, for the "clichéd 3 dates to sex" thing. If a woman really desires you, and you've had at least 3 decent dates, good long ones where you can talk and get to know each other, then its not unreasonable to think that a sexual liaison is in the air. Everyone is different, some guys and girls will want to wait longer, but really, in my view, both people will already know if there is a sexual attraction by the end of the third date. After that, its more about social convention or personal/religious or other constructs.

Lol no not becasue I want sex. I'll try to clarify...

I had a thread recently where I said I was tired of looking at myself. It's good to look at yourself and see what you need to work on but sooner or later it will make you subconscious about everything which was happening to me. Anyway, looking back, while I do have some nice guy tendencies that need improving, I realize I'm not as much of a nice guy as I thought. My examples were that I don't think a "nice guy" would of told the woman in the first example (this was in person on the date) that he wasn't there for an ego boost and layed down boundaries regarding multi-dating. The second example was basically that I told her we weren't on the same page with the way the courship was going (in other words) given we were three dates in and she had yet to initiate contact.

Great response btw!

June 9, 2013

I disagree with the terminology.

The issue is social awkwardness. Gracefully and confidently standing up for yourself is not only fine, but a core component of being attractive. Being more of a doormat is not the answer.

Edited June 9, 2013 by drr6

June 9, 2013

I had a thread recently where I said I was tired of looking at myself. It's good to look at yourself and see what you need to work on but sooner or later it will make you subconscious about everything which was happening to me. Anyway, looking back, while I do have some nice guy tendencies that need improving, I realize I'm not as much of a nice guy as I thought. My examples were that I don't think a "nice guy" would of told the woman in the first example (this was in person on the date) that he wasn't there for an ego boost and layed down boundaries regarding multi-dating. The second example was basically that I told her we weren't on the same page with the way the courship was going (in other words) given we were three dates in and she had yet to initiate contact.

To be honest, I think both of these things reflect a bit of insecurity on your part and actually would be things that a "nice guy" would say, especially the second one which basically screams, "why won't you contact me...?? :("

June 9, 2013

I disagree with the terminology.

The issue is social awkwardness. Gracefully and confidently standing up for yourself is not only fine, but a core component of being attractive. Being more of a doormat is not the answer.

I don't understand what social awkardness has to do with this?

The bold is what I did and that's what I was getting at in that a nice guy wouldn't of done that.

I don't know if I took your last sentence wrong or if you're taking me wrong. I'm not trying to become a nice guy and when I said there are some tendenceis I'm working on I meant that there are still some nice guy tendenceis I'm trying to get rid of...

June 9, 2013

To be honest, I think both of these things reflect a bit of insecurity on your part and actually would be things that a "nice guy" would say, especially the second one which basically screams, "why won't you contact me...?? :("

Thanks for the feedback. I disagree with you on the first one. There's nothing "nice guy" about setting boundaries. She initated contact the same night after our date and a couple days later asked me out for a fourth date so I think she was worried I was going to bail given what I told her.

I can see where you get that on the second one but I think I articulated it to where she understood where I was coming from. I didn't say something like "Did I do something wrong" or "Why won't you text me are you mad at me?"

Edited June 9, 2013 by SJC2008
add

June 9, 2013

I'm not trying to become a nice guy and when I said there are some tendenceis I'm working on I meant that there are still some nice guy tendenceis I'm trying to get rid of...

Ahh. I see ... I think.

Mate, there is nothing wrong with being nice, just don't be a doormat.

Be careful with what you want as you may just get it hehehe. As I said in my earlier post, I was given some personal feedback recently, in the last few days, which are anything but nice. I've now got to consider if I'm not becoming a bit of a prick actually.

I've been going through a lot of personal self change lately. I was going to say "self improvement" but you know, not all of the change I have put into place is for the good I'm starting to think.

Be nice, don't throw that away. So many people are inherently not that nice - its a good quality. But _know_ yourself and don't deny those things that are truly who you are. Let others know this real person too. Some girls for sure won't like the real you, but whats to be gained in 'faking it'?

June 9, 2013

And this is where you are wrong.

You should not be dating someone just to give them an ego boost, right? So it's not the message but the way you are stumbling to deliver the message that is problematic.

To want to f*ck the ever loving brains out of the person you are dating is also not wrong. In fact, it is abso-****ing-lutely the right answer.

But to hem and haw, obfuscate, or pretend that is not what you want, in the hope that you will actually get it later, is also not the way to get your message across effectively.

Social awkwardness = absence of 007 factor/ swag/ confidence/ whatever else you want to call it.

To be fair, the skill set doesn't come easily or automatically. But that's the goal, and it's attainable.

I don't understand what social awkardness has to do with this?

The bold is what I did and that's what I was getting at in that a nice guy wouldn't of done that.

I don't know if I took your last sentence wrong or if you're taking me wrong. I'm not trying to become a nice guy and when I said there are some tendenceis I'm working on I meant that there are still some nice guy tendenceis I'm trying to get rid of...

June 9, 2013

Thanks for the feedback. I disagree with you on the first one. There's nothing "nice guy" about setting boundaries. I can see where you get that on the second one but I think I articulated it to where she understood where I was coming from. I didn't say something like "Did I do something wrong" or "Why won't you text me are you mad at me?"

For the bolded, you're right, this is a big no-no, because you immediately shift blame to yourself for something that she is doing. "Nice guys" do do that. I should caveat what I'm saying by distinguishing between the early dating stage versus the later relationship stages. Later on in a relationship, I think communication is much more vital than it is in the early dating stages. I would be much less apt to communicate behaviors that you'd desire from her, i.e., "control" her, when there is less investment in the relationship.

In the case of her not initiating contact, I might have just stopped seeing her without mention of her not initiating contact. In the case of boundaries, are you attempting to control her sexual behavior or informing her that you are controlling your sexual behavior...?

June 9, 2013

Ahh. I see ... I think.

Mate, there is nothing wrong with being nice, just don't be a doormat.

Be careful with what you want as you may just get it hehehe. As I said in my earlier post, I was given some personal feedback recently, in the last few days, which are anything but nice. I've now got to consider if I'm not becoming a bit of a prick actually.

I've been going through a lot of personal self change lately. I was going to say "self improvement" but you know, not all of the change I have put into place is for the good I'm starting to think.

Be nice, don't throw that away. So many people are inherently not that nice - its a good quality. But _know_ yourself and don't deny those things that are truly who you are. Let others know this real person too. Some girls for sure won't like the real you, but whats to be gained in 'faking it'?

Right when I say nice guy I mean doormat (I thought that's what nice guy meant in dating lingo). Anyway, I'm a good natured, nice man and I'll never change that. I'm working on not being such a doormat and putting women on a pedestal.

June 9, 2013

I made a reading mistake. Disregard the first sentence of my last post.

It sounds like we are on the same wavelength.

If that effing Hokie didn't stalk my posts and write something immediately after every single one, I would have edited it.

June 9, 2013

For the bolded, you're right, this is a big no-no, because you immediately shift blame to yourself for something that she is doing. "Nice guys" do do that. I should caveat what I'm saying by distinguishing between the early dating stage versus the later relationship stages. Later on in a relationship, I think communication is much more vital than it is in the early dating stages. I would be much less apt to communicate behaviors that you'd desire from her, i.e., "control" her, when there is less investment in the relationship.

In the case of her not initiating contact, I might have just stopped seeing her without mention of her not initiating contact. In the case of boundaries, are you attempting to control her sexual behavior or informing her that you are controlling your sexual behavior...?

Great points, the initiating contact one was about a year ago when I was way less exp'd so like you said next time I'll pull back/drop it alltogether.

I don't think I was trying to control her behavior, I typically wind up with controlling women and surprise surpise she is controlling lol (see my how to know if a woman is testing you thread if you'd like, that's her). I meant that if she wants to multi date that's fine but if we got to a point where we started having sex it should be monogmous. I don't sleep with multiple people and don't want to date somoene who does. I didn't say that to her I don't know if I should of or if that would of been to full on??

June 9, 2013

To want to f*ck the ever loving brains out of the person you are dating is also not wrong. In fact, it is abso-****ing-lutely the right answer.
But to hem and haw, obfuscate, or pretend that is not what you want, in the hope that you will actually get it later, is also not the way to get your message across effectively.

Yes, completely agree

June 9, 2013

And this is where you are wrong.

You should not be dating someone just to give them an ego boost, right? So it's not the message but the way you are stumbling to deliver the message that is problematic.
To want to f*ck the ever loving brains out of the person you are dating is also not wrong. In fact, it is abso-****ing-lutely the right answer.
But to hem and haw, obfuscate, or pretend that is not what you want, in the hope that you will actually get it later, is also not the way to get your message across effectively.

Social awkwardness = absence of 007 factor/ swag/ confidence/ whatever else you want to call it.
To be fair, the skill set doesn't come easily or automatically. But that's the goal, and it's attainable.

Like I mentioned in the OP she was not too far removed from a long R so when I was trying to gauge what she was looking for and she said she didn't know etc it screamed rebound. Personally, I hate rebonds and don't want to be someones emotional tampon, no matter how good the sex is. That's why I told her I wasn't there for an ego boost and about the multi dating. Anyway, we went out a couple more times and did have sex BUT I was a rebound lol. I should of ended it after the 3rd date, not doing so WAS being a nice guy by hanging around when we had different goals in that she didn't know what she wanted and that I wanted to date somone who was looking for an r.

June 9, 2013

I don't think I was trying to control her behavior, I typically wind up with controlling women and surprise surpise she is controlling lol (see my how to know if a woman is testing you thread if you'd like, that's her). I meant that if she wants to multi date that's fine but if we got to a point where we started having sex it should be monogmous. I don't sleep with multiple people and don't want to date somoene who does. I didn't say that to her I don't know if I should of or if that would of been to full on??

Well, if you are expecting her to be monogamous with you when sex begins, there are other ways to convey that. You don't need to say things like "I don't date for an ego boost," as that's just a passive aggressive attack (not necessarily on her) which serves no purpose. Additionally, you don't even need to mention multi-dating or lines at sex, as it reflects your presumption that she's dating other men and that you don't want her to get more attached to other men.

The more "confident" approach would be to show her such a great time and demonstrate through your actions that you are solid guy and would be a great boyfriend. Give her no choice but to choose to be monogamous with you. Rather than tell her you don't want her sleeping with other men, just be so awesome that you're the only man she wants to sleep with.

June 9, 2013

Like I mentioned in the OP she was not too far removed from a long R so when I was trying to gauge what she was looking for and she said she didn't know etc it screamed rebound. Personally, I hate rebonds and don't want to be someones emotional tampon, no matter how good the sex is. That's why I told her I wasn't there for an ego boost and about the multi dating. Anyway, we went out a couple more times and did have sex BUT I was a rebound lol. I should of ended it after the 3rd date, not doing so WAS being a nice guy by hanging around when we had different goals in that she didn't know what she wanted and that I wanted to date somone who was looking for an r.

Yea, this is the nice guy thing to do on several levels...

June 9, 2013

The more "confident" approach would be to show her such a great time and demonstrate through your actions that you are solid guy and would be a great boyfriend. Give her no choice but to choose to be monogamous with you. Rather than tell her you don't want her sleeping with other men, just be so awesome that you're the only man she wants to sleep with.

You know, theres really something to this line of thought and despite my age (mid life) I've only just stumbled over the reality of it.

Becoming insane because of the possibility that your current lady love is seeing other men is just that ... insane. People will do what they want. Sometimes they will tell you, sometimes they won't.

The job, if you like, of the assertive but "nice" guy is, as you say, to be so awesome to her that she really wants to spend her free time with you - and her bed time too. Other less interesting men will simply not get the face time.

This is not a controlling thing, you really have to find a place of confidence - Its not a matter of stalking her, or filling her every waking moment with your presence (real or text or mail or phone or whatever), but knowing that she really enjoys you and even when you are not together she's still thinking about you.

June 9, 2013

Well, if you are expecting her to be monogamous with you when sex begins, there are other ways to convey that..

Agreed. I just don't want to date someone who sleeps with multiple people. It looks like talking to them about it hasn't helped so next time I'll just go with the flow and hope I'm dating somone with similar values.

You don't need to say things like "I don't date for an ego boost," as that's just a passive aggressive attack (not necessarily on her) which serves no purpose.

Saying I don't date for an ego boost was passive aggressvie now that you mention it, I didn't articulate well when I told her (That's another thing I've noticed lately about me that I need to work on, I'm seeing it in my threads too:().

Additionally, you don't even need to mention multi-dating or lines at sex, as it reflects your presumption that she's dating other men and that you don't want her to get more attached to other men.

Good point. It's just that I'm not the multi dating type and she said she wanted to date around.

I'm starting to see why most people don't ask questions about goals and such when they date. It seems full on, too much too soon. TBS I don't think I came accross that bad becuase like I said she initated the next date and we went out a couple more times and I got some!

June 9, 2013

Yea, this is the nice guy thing to do on several levels...

Yes sir and it'll never happen again!

June 9, 2013

Agreed. I just don't want to date someone who sleeps with multiple people. It looks like talking to them about it hasn't helped so next time I'll just go with the flow and hope I'm dating somone with similar values.

Perhaps establish monogamy by establishing a relationship. And you don't necessarily have to come out and ask/demand for it, but you should be able to tell based on your interactions whether she feels a pseudo-relationship has formed vice casual dating. Are your actions and her actions consistent with two people in a relationship? Are your actions leading her in that direction? Again, actions are stronger than words and convey a lot more about your intentions and desires.

I'm starting to see why most people don't ask questions about goals and such when they date. It seems full on, too much too soon. TBS I don't think I came accross that bad becuase like I said she initated the next date and we went out a couple more times and I got some!

It's not necessarily a bad thing, but there are more subtle and casual ways to inquire. The best method? Listen to her. Words often come out at the cyclic rate and you can pick up a lot more into her words if you pay careful attention and actually listen rather than just hear her.

June 9, 2013

I don't think what you just described was "bad boy" behavior necessarily. There are actually 3 kinds of guys in the world :a bad boys (we don't have to get into definitions as to what they are as we all know full well), wimps (those who are neither because they are not brave enough or willing to take a risk on anything in life), and the so called "nice guys" who don't fit either catagory. These are the ones who seem normal by all appearances but have some nasty inner thoughts and behaviors. Aka they are men who have filthy thoughts because they are wired that way. You're in the 3rd catagory.

June 9, 2013

"Nice guy" is apparently synonymous with "doormat" in SJC language?

Because I wouldn't describe your behavior as non-"nice guy."

June 9, 2013

I can't look at either of those situations and clarify you as a "nice" or "bad" guy.

That's just being a guy.

June 9, 2013

"Nice guy" is apparently synonymous with "doormat" in SJC language?

Because I wouldn't describe your behavior as non-"nice guy."

Agreed. There are LOTS of actual nice guys who are confident and secure. Everything he's describing (and similar complaints I've seen hither and thither in "nice guy" threads) seem to do with insecure guys who have been (or feel like they are going to be) rejected. "nice guy", "emotional tampon" "putting women on pedestals", etc just sounds like all that regurgitated PUA stuff.

On a side note: It's funny (not ha ha funny) that OP is worried about her not initiating in three dates where I read another thread by a woman who was so excited that her new date had initiated ALL the contact for their first three dates, as this shows he must really be into her.

I think one of the best things I've learned from reading this (and another) forum for the last couple of years is men have a lot of the same needs, insecurities, feelings, etc. that women do. I know I've had a tendency to sit back and wait for initiation, thinking that's a true sign of interest, not realizing that men could be thinking/feeling the same thing.

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I'm not as much of a "nice guy" as I thought I was.

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