Debate with my husband

[Roweena]

OK... if you think it isn't too much to ask, and that it is no big deal, and that it's easy to do, then why the debate? And why ask us what we think? If it makes sense to you, then just grow your hair out and be happy.

 

Because it's an ongoing debate about various things. For example, he's a christian and he often says, as it says in the bible, that the man is the head of the woman. He's very patriarchical, and I must admit that the way he interacts with me not only turns me on a lot, it actually feels right somehow, like that's the way it's supposed to be. It's hard to explain, it just feels like that's the right dynamic. All of our mutual friends were married but only one couple remain, and in all cases the husband is, shall we say, kind of henpecked. My husband has a saying, "Woman plus power equals chaos", and whenever we talk about our formerly married friends, his arguments (based on that saying) are very difficult to argue with.

[serial muse]

He contributes towards the household far more than me, he takes me out often, he takes days off work if I'm sick to look after me, he helps me look after my disabled brother, he does his fair share of household chores, lots of things.

 

As you can see he does a lot. It wouldn't be very nice of me to let myself go in the looks department.

 

I don't know, I assume you do similar acts of service for him, too, so that's not really the kind of stuff I was asking about. But, you know, it doesn't really matter what I think. It sounds to me like you're fine with this, so if you want to do this, do it and don't worry about what random strangers on the internet think.

 

It sounds strange to say that appearance is a person's most important asset. It's not a thing I would want my husband to say to me. I would want to know that he values me as a human being for a lot of other things. But I'm starting to get the sense that you perhaps misspoke in your earlier post - that he meant that it's a woman's most important asset when it comes to attracting a man who otherwise doesn't know her. So, although still kind of meh IMO, a lot of people feel that way and it's a lot less shocking if that's the case. It sounded like you were saying that he values appearance in general over all other things. I hope that's not true, and if he helps you in all these ways, it probably isn't.

 

So again, do what you feel is right here.

[vickvagner]

How you grow your hair is your choice. You have to manage it-comb it, etc.

 

Don't get hung up on this - I would take it as a compliment - he's telling you he thinks you're attractive.

 

How about this - get yourself a longer wig at a shop, and surprise him with it one night. Bet he never says a thing about your short hair again.

[pteromom]

Because it's an ongoing debate about various things. For example, he's a christian and he often says, as it says in the bible, that the man is the head of the woman. He's very patriarchical, and I must admit that the way he interacts with me not only turns me on a lot, it actually feels right somehow, like that's the way it's supposed to be. It's hard to explain, it just feels like that's the right dynamic. All of our mutual friends were married but only one couple remain, and in all cases the husband is, shall we say, kind of henpecked. My husband has a saying, "Woman plus power equals chaos", and whenever we talk about our formerly married friends, his arguments (based on that saying) are very difficult to argue with.

 

If it works for you, feels right for you, and turns you on, then hey... more power to you. Or... er... less power to you... whatever works for you.

 

It wouldn't work for me, and I think your husband sounds like a complete misogynist, but if you are happy, then it is good you found each other.

 

Just remember that along with the man being the head of the household, the man is supposed to in turn, love his wife as Christ does the church, giving himself up for her. With great power comes great responsibility, and he is supposed to use his leadership to ensure YOUR needs are met and that you are happy and fulfilled and whole, and that your family and household are successful and happy. If he's doing that, wonderful.

 

I don't, however, remember "Looks are the number one thing for a woman" in the Bible. Actually, Peter says: " Do not let your adorning be external—the braiding of hair and the putting on of gold jewelry, or the clothing you wear— but let your adorning be the hidden person of the heart with the imperishable beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which in God's sight is very precious."

 

He cannot pick and choose the parts of his faith that benefit him while rejecting that which doesn't match his personal views.

[Roweena]

I don't know, I assume you do similar acts of service for him, too, so that's not really the kind of stuff I was asking about. But, you know, it doesn't really matter what I think. It sounds to me like you're fine with this, so if you want to do this, do it and don't worry about what random strangers on the internet think.

 

It sounds strange to say that appearance is a person's most important asset. It's not a thing I would want my husband to say to me. I would want to know that he values me as a human being for a lot of other things. But I'm starting to get the sense that you perhaps misspoke in your earlier post - that he meant that it's a woman's most important asset when it comes to attracting a man who otherwise doesn't know her. So, although still kind of meh IMO, a lot of people feel that way and it's a lot less shocking if that's the case. It sounded like you were saying that he values appearance in general over all other things. I hope that's not true, and if he helps you in all these ways, it probably isn't.

 

So again, do what you feel is right here.

 

That's right, I'm talking about attraction. But the truth is that you can't let yourself go once you've landed someone. That's pretty much what he's asking me to do, to not let myself go. After all, you hear about women complaining about their husbands getting a beer belly, not shaving properly, walking around the house wearing dishevelled clothes, etc, I think it's only fair that I keep myself attractive for him, and also for myself. No one likes to feel like they're ugly or unfit. Besides it's good for one's self esteem to know that the other person is still attracted.

[Roweena]

How you grow your hair is your choice. You have to manage it-comb it, etc.

 

Don't get hung up on this - I would take it as a compliment - he's telling you he thinks you're attractive.

 

How about this - get yourself a longer wig at a shop, and surprise him with it one night. Bet he never says a thing about your short hair again.

 

A wig would be an awful idea. He hates fakery. I'll just grow it, and style it nicely in the meantime.

[Roweena]

If it works for you, feels right for you, and turns you on, then hey... more power to you. Or... er... less power to you... whatever works for you.

 

It wouldn't work for me, and I think your husband sounds like a complete misogynist, but if you are happy, then it is good you found each other.

 

Just remember that along with the man being the head of the household, the man is supposed to in turn, love his wife as Christ does the church, giving himself up for her. With great power comes great responsibility, and he is supposed to use his leadership to ensure YOUR needs are met and that you are happy and fulfilled and whole, and that your family and household are successful and happy. If he's doing that, wonderful.

 

I don't, however, remember "Looks are the number one thing for a woman" in the Bible. Actually, Peter says: " Do not let your adorning be external—the braiding of hair and the putting on of gold jewelry, or the clothing you wear— but let your adorning be the hidden person of the heart with the imperishable beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which in God's sight is very precious."

 

He cannot pick and choose the parts of his faith that benefit him while rejecting that which doesn't match his personal views.

 

There's nothing in the bible that goes against wanting your wife to look nice. He's not a misogynist, not in the slightest. If he was I wouldn't be with him.

[pteromom]

There's nothing in the bible that goes against wanting your wife to look nice. He's not a misogynist, not in the slightest. If he was I wouldn't be with him.

 

Obviously you know him, and I only know what you've shared.

 

But I do know "Woman plus power equals chaos" sounds like something a misogynist would say.

[Roweena]

Obviously you know him, and I only know what you've shared.

 

But I do know "Woman plus power equals chaos" sounds like something a misogynist would say.

 

He says that usually when a woman is granted power, she is prone to misusing it. His reasoning is that men are raised to be leaders, pursuers, innovators, etc, and that this requires handling power responsibly. He says that women aren't raised in that way, and that as a result, being responsible with power isn't a priority when they're raised, as it's unnecessary. I find it hard to argue with that. Part of me wants to, maybe because I like a good debate, but another part of me sees what he means. I certainly was never raised to be able to handle power responsibly and I don't know any women who have.

[serial muse]

But the truth is that you can't let yourself go once you've landed someone. That's pretty much what he's asking me to do, to not let myself go. After all, you hear about women complaining about their husbands getting a beer belly, not shaving properly, walking around the house wearing dishevelled clothes, etc, I think it's only fair that I keep myself attractive for him, and also for myself. No one likes to feel like they're ugly or unfit. Besides it's good for one's self esteem to know that the other person is still attracted.

 

Fair enough - but then, saying that looks aren't the number one asset in a person isn't the same thing as giving someone license to just let him-/herself go, is it? It's a false dichotomy.

[Roweena]

I don't follow.

[serial muse]

I don't follow.

 

I'm just saying that I can agree that people should endeavor not to let themselves go in a marriage, and still disagree vehemently that a woman's number one asset is her looks. I don't think you have to believe both things.

 

Also, on this point:

 

He says that usually when a woman is granted power, she is prone to misusing it. His reasoning is that men are raised to be leaders, pursuers, innovators, etc, and that this requires handling power responsibly. He says that women aren't raised in that way, and that as a result, being responsible with power isn't a priority when they're raised, as it's unnecessary. I find it hard to argue with that. Part of me wants to, maybe because I like a good debate, but another part of me sees what he means. I certainly was never raised to be able to handle power responsibly and I don't know any women who have.

 

Well, here we will disagree. I would consider this bigotry, although not necessarily misogyny, which usually involves anger. But to me it is bigotry, because he is assuming things about men/women based on his personal prejudices, rather than on fact. It is certainly not a fact that women aren't able to handle power by nature; and if certain people continue to perpetuate a helplessness in women by not allowing them to mature in that way and refusing to allow them the opportunity to have responsibility, then that's nurture, not nature that's at fault. Right? That's a choice, not biology.

 

In my world and my life, women are OK with power and chaos does not ensue. I'm sorry that your world does not include such women.

[Roweena]

Well my husband says that if it were not for looks, men would not have much reason to be attracted to women, whereas that would not apply so much the other way round. That is why he says that a woman's looks and femininity are her number 1 assets. It may not be politically correct but when I think about it, I don't have anything to say. I think that's absolutely correct.

[Roweena]

So what's a woman's value when she's old or sick? Handicapped or disfigured?

 

We're not talking about that. We're talking about him not wanting me to let myself go. All he wants is for me to make reasonable efforts to look as good as I possibly can.

[serial muse]

Well my husband says that if it were not for looks, men would not have much reason to be attracted to women, whereas that would not apply so much the other way round. That is why he says that a woman's looks and femininity are her number 1 assets. It may not be politically correct but when I think about it, I don't have anything to say. I think that's absolutely correct.

 

Yikes. I don't think that disagreeing with something means that you're being politically correct, by the way. That's just a thing that people say because they don't like being disagreed with, and they're trying to shame people into shutting up.

 

And I definitely don't agree with the bolded statement. Women are people, like men, and have a lot to offer in terms of character, creativity, thoughtfulness, love, charm, intellect, you name it - all the qualities that any human might possess. That's a pretty bigoted thing to say on his part. I find it sad that he is so limited in his viewpoint ... and I guess we were all right in the first place.

 

I don't know, this whole thread now makes me a bit sad, I'd better bow out but I wish you the best of luck.

[CarrieT]

Well my husband says that if it were not for looks, men would not have much reason to be attracted to women, whereas that would not apply so much the other way round.

Wow. I am flabbergasted....

 

when I think about it, I don't have anything to say. I think that's absolutely correct.

Now I am completely flabbergasted.

 

Roweena, it sounds like you and your husband are perfect for each other. I sincerely hope you can maintain the level of attraction he expects as it appears that is what your relationship is based on.

 

I am stating that many, MANY of us disagree with such a philosophy, but if both of you believe this, I firmly believe you will be the victim of a man who will eventually stray. Why? Because he sounds incredibly shallow and if he only values women for their looks, his eyes will go to those who are younger and better looking than you and - slowly - he will value THEM more than he values you.

 

My condolences and I am *not* being snarky or facetious.

[Roweena]

But when he makes blanket statements about "most" or "extremely important" and questions what men get outside of astetics in a world of biological decay he is revealing some misogynist tendencies. I was married to a guy like that... His inability to appreciate other qualities ruined not only all his relationships, but he is phobic of his own mortality now...

 

What do you mean when you say misogynistic tendencies? One is either a misogynist or not. I've known him for years. I'm a smart woman and I have never perceived him to be that way inclined at all.

 

He does not fail to appreciate qualities other than attractiveness. I have never said that he doesn't appreciate me in general. Far from it, he certainly does.

[Roweena]

Yikes. I don't think that disagreeing with something means that you're being politically correct, by the way. That's just a thing that people say because they don't like being disagreed with, and they're trying to shame people into shutting up.

 

And I definitely don't agree with the bolded statement. Women are people, like men, and have a lot to offer in terms of character, creativity, thoughtfulness, love, charm, intellect, you name it - all the qualities that any human might possess. That's a pretty bigoted thing to say on his part. I find it sad that he is so limited in his viewpoint ... and I guess we were all right in the first place.

 

I don't know, this whole thread now makes me a bit sad, I'd better bow out but I wish you the best of luck.

 

We're talking about attractiveness. As he points out, quite rightly, who gets more attention from men, those that are perceived to be attractive, or those that are not (so much)? As a woman I know for a fact that looks do matter a lot to men, and I'm sure most men will agree. Of course it matters. The facts speak for themselves.

[Roweena]

Wow. I am flabbergasted....

 

 

Now I am completely flabbergasted.

 

Roweena, it sounds like you and your husband are perfect for each other. I sincerely hope you can maintain the level of attraction he expects as it appears that is what your relationship is based on.

 

I am stating that many, MANY of us disagree with such a philosophy, but if both of you believe this, I firmly believe you will be the victim of a man who will eventually stray. Why? Because he sounds incredibly shallow and if he only values women for their looks, his eyes will go to those who are younger and better looking than you and - slowly - he will value THEM more than he values you.

 

My condolences and I am *not* being snarky or facetious.

 

He has never said that he only values women for their looks. We're talking about attraction. He's not shallow, he does appreciate everything, but I can't argue with the fact that attraction is important.

[Roweena]

If you were horribly disfigured in a car accident: say your face was burned, a leg was left crippled and you grew fat from immobility and racked up tons of medical debt, would he stay married to you? My ex used to claim he would, but it was revealed to be a lie when an infection I needed steroids for that kept me fat for nearly a year was suddenly an issue. I heard EVERY day about my body. The situation ripped off his thin veil concerning superficiality...

 

I would ensure this is not the case with your man, because crap happens. Marriages not based primarily on common values and interests are doomed. People get together in youth partially on attractiveness, but decades of sex are not enough bonding an agent in a world of constant stress, financial and health issues. Attractive women are a dime a dozen, loyal, hard working, loving, intellectual ones are VERY rare, and those are the only kind of women's go have what it takes for the long haul.

 

I hope to never be in such a situation, where I have to wonder if he will stay or not, or vice versa. There's nothing much to say as that is hypothetical.

 

My marriage is based on common values. Like I say this is about attraction, not common values.

[xxoo]

I don't mind if my h voices preferences about my hair. It is the way he likes it best now, but when I want to cut it, he'll drive me to the salon. Hair, and me looking a certain way, just isn't that important to him. Me feeling good about myself is more important.

 

If you and your h share a point of view, what's the issue? Just grow it.

[Roweena]

How old are you? Longer hair looks better on women unless they are old. You may be taking what your husband said out of context or misunderstanding what he meant.

 

I think you should want to be pretty for him. If you're in your 20's and longer hair looks good on you just do it. It's also fine if your good looks are what originally attracted him to you. Though a relationship needs more than that to grow.

 

I'm 27. I agree with you and I agree with my husband. It is important for wives and girlfriends to actually want to look good, rather than see it as oppressive. That doesn't even make sense at all. You don't tend to get those kinds of warped views in Latin America, Eastern Europe and Asia. They seem to have a far better grasp of these basic concepts and they don't make a big deal out of it. As you can tell I'm certainly no feminist.

[2sunny]

My husband made a comment the other day about my hair, he said that I should grow it by a few inches to how it was before. A few months ago I had it cut rather short and I could tell straight away that he didn't like it, although at the time he didn't say anything. He said that a major part of why he was interested in me initially was the way I looked, and that if I start making changes without consulting him first it will lessen his attraction for me. He says that a woman's appearance is her number 1 asset, followed closely by her femininity.

 

We had a brief discussion about that, and since then we have had a few chats, and now it's kind of an ongoing debate between us.

 

We also discussed a few other things aswell, but I thought I'd start off with this particular subject.

 

Thoughts?

 

I find his views offensive and controlling.

 

A woman's beauty is on the inside - he must be shallow and places his importance on the wrong value.

 

It would make me feel like he's criticizing and only loved me for how I could look rather than "the person that I am!"

 

Why do YOU ALLOW him to treat you this way? It's sad for you...

 

We train people how to treat us - you've trained him that he can be mean and you accept it. That's not acceptable and it's not loving behavior.

[xxoo]

I don't think women cut their hair because they don't want to look good

[Roweena]

I find his views offensive and controlling.

 

A woman's beauty is on the inside - he must be shallow and places his importance on the wrong value.

 

It would make me feel like he's criticizing and only loved me for how I could look rather than "the person that I am!"

 

Why do YOU ALLOW him to treat you this way? It's sad for you...

 

We train people how to treat us - you've trained him that he can be mean and you accept it. That's not acceptable and it's not loving behavior.

 

There's nothing mean about wanting your wife to look as nice as she can. What would be mean is me letting myself go and then blaming him when he isn't attracted to me any more.