BetrayedH Posted June 2, 2013 Posted June 2, 2013 2sunny is closer to the truth than you think. When your wife talked about seeing if that one time was a mistake, she was NOT talking about a kiss. Your wife has had an inappropriate relationship with T all these years. It is unacceptable to allow a man to pursue her like that all these years. Out of respect for you, she should have shut it down cold. Why she allowed it only she can answer, but my guess would be that she actually likes T (it's hard to dislike someone who tells you how nice, hot, sexy you are), that she felt in control of the outcome, that she was doing nothing to actually hurt you (though she was wrong about this). This has been a gradual process. You and your wife are of a generation that believes that men and women can be friends (it may be possible). In this particular case, however, T NEVER was JUST FRIENDS with your wife. He ALWAYS has been pursuing her romantically, and she has let him. One time she broke down and had sex with him. You can't nice your wife out of this half-assed affair with T. Your wife has told you she is perfectly happy with her life except for the you/her part of it. Meaning, she is comfortable and doesn't want to change anything. She plans to continue to further develop her relationship with T, while your relationship with your wife will continue to deteriorate. As others have posted, you can't control your wife, you can only control yourself and what you are willing and not willing to accept in a marriage. If you told this story to any normal reasonable person, they would agree that your wife should give T the boot because it is disrespectful to you to accept the romantic invitations of another man over and over without setting that man straight and insisting that he STOP. The only person you've told the story to, the marriage counselor, agreed with this outlook. That is why your wife no longer wants to see the MC, not because the MC misspelled or confused your name. Sometimes I call one of my kids by the other's name, that doesn't mean I'm incompetent as a father. What I think you should do: Stand up to your wife about the relationship with T. Ask why she believes it's OK for him to pursue her romantically and why you should be OK with that. Tell her that you find it unacceptable and that you are considering divorce. Ask her, if it comes down to me not being able to accept this situation with T as your friend who professes romantic love for you, what do you think I should do? Do not make any ultimatum that you are not willing to keep. Buy two copies of the book "Not Just Friends" by Shirley Glass and ask your wife to read it with you. Hold off on contacting T's wife for the moment. Some questions: What is your level of affection like with your wife currently and in the recent past? How about your sex life? Does your wife delete messages to/from T? How often do they communicate? What do they say to each other when he is not telling her how great she is and how much he desires her? I agree A LOT with this post. Sunny IS closer to the truth than you think. The one time they "did it" was sexual, not a kiss. We see it here all the time. What are they, twelve-year-olds that hold hands and make-out? She's already proven herself a liar by virtue of insisting that there were no feelings when you already read what she said about him. It's also true that you can't "nice her back." You are competing with a fantasy and your intrusion has become annoying. Ladygrey is also right that a hardline approach is what proves successful if there's any chance of salvaging the marriage. The one place where I disagree is with you leaving. That can be construed as abandonment. And she'll obviously resist leaving on her own (and you have almost zero chance of being able to legally kick her out). If you want to take a hardline approach to confront this affair (which I recommend, especially since your soft approach has consistently failed), you should have her served with divorce papers. You've told her what you expect from this marriage and she's blown you off yet again. You defined the boundary and now you have to follow thru on your ultimatum. Stop rolling over. Stop accepting this unacceptable behavior. Respect yourself. If she expressed true remorse, you can always pause the proceedings. But if you fail to hold your ground and fold, you csn expect that you are now a volunteer, not a victim. I'm sorry that this isn't what you want to hear but having been here for over two years, I can tell you that it's the necessary path. Good luck.
Bryanp Posted June 2, 2013 Posted June 2, 2013 If the roles would have been reversed, would your wife have put up with such long term disrespect humiliation that you have endured? Would she have been constantly accepting and forgiving as you have been? Your wife has continually made a choice of staying connected to T and disconnecting your relationship with her. It begs the question that down deep she has no respect for your marriage and you. If you do not respect yourself then who will?
BetrayedH Posted June 2, 2013 Posted June 2, 2013 If the roles would have been reversed, would your wife have put up with such long term disrespect humiliation that you have endured? Would she have been constantly accepting and forgiving as you have been? Your wife has continually made a choice of staying connected to T and disconnecting your relationship with her. It begs the question that down deep she has no respect for your marriage and you. If you do not respect yourself then who will? And you should be tested for STDs.
Goodbye Posted June 2, 2013 Posted June 2, 2013 If you are still reading your own thread, I'm sorry the people here respond with such hatred and disrespect. The funny thing is...most of these people also want to pigeon hole their wayward spouses into staying married, or "reconciling"...go figure. Make a list of the pros and cons of your marriage. Maybe speak with an individual therapist in addition to a MC? Sometimes this can help break through some of the confusion you are experiencing. I'm speaking from my own experience having three kids in short order. I went from being a well respected professional woman to a stay at home mom with a toddler and two infants...my H was gone a lot...for business. I developed resentments, and I was probably primed for an emotional affair. The situation never came about, so no emotional affair took place. But I remember being STARVED for external validation at that point. If this is where your wife is, it may be possible to fix things...but only if she is on board. I am in no way advocating the secrecy or obvious disrespect that has occurred. I'm just saying that this "place" you are in in your marriage isn't all that uncommon. I really do wish you good luck.
2sunny Posted June 2, 2013 Posted June 2, 2013 If you are still reading your own thread, I'm sorry the people here respond with such hatred and disrespect. The funny thing is...most of these people also want to pigeon hole their wayward spouses into staying married, or "reconciling"...go figure. Make a list of the pros and cons of your marriage. Maybe speak with an individual therapist in addition to a MC? Sometimes this can help break through some of the confusion you are experiencing. I'm speaking from my own experience having three kids in short order. I went from being a well respected professional woman to a stay at home mom with a toddler and two infants...my H was gone a lot...for business. I developed resentments, and I was probably primed for an emotional affair. The situation never came about, so no emotional affair took place. But I remember being STARVED for external validation at that point. If this is where your wife is, it may be possible to fix things...but only if she is on board. I am in no way advocating the secrecy or obvious disrespect that has occurred. I'm just saying that this "place" you are in in your marriage isn't all that uncommon. I really do wish you good luck. I haven't seen hatred and disrespect in this thread. Where did you surmise that info from? I've seen people making suggestions to help him have a boundary and self respect - which is all good! Has your wife "offered" to cease ALL contact with her OM? If she hasn't - you can expect things to remain the same = 3 people in your marriage. I hope she offers to eliminate the cancer from your M that's been slowly killing the chance of having a happy, intimate connection. You must have some guidelines for things to turn around - and you must express to her what she can do to participate in a manner that gives the M a starting point of reconciling. If she won't change - I can't see how the M can improve.
secretlady76 Posted June 2, 2013 Posted June 2, 2013 I'm going to try and give you advice instead of telling you you're married to a slut. I don't think you are. Your wife is having a relationship with someone. The both of them are getting something out of it. There are feelings involved etc. She is in no mind to finish this relationship. Why? Because it makes her feel good and god fobid you insist she finishes it, especially as she has admitted she has fallen out of love with you. She is in love with him I would suspect, or at least the idea of him. I would imagine she is also very confused and conflicted going forward about what to do too. We could go on about what she has and hasn't done but what you really have to think about it WHY she's doing it. I really do think you need to have a sit down discussion with her, all cards on the table. Tell her that you love her, but you no longer want to be taken for granted. You deserve more than that. Give her two options. Either she agrees to go NC with this guy, go through a period of withdrawal, go to MC with you and give it 100% last shot OR she leaves and you go your seperate ways. I think you have to be very firm with this. If you don't I suspect you will continue to be her door-mat that she has no respect for.
2sunny Posted June 2, 2013 Posted June 2, 2013 Have your W take a polygraph - since she lies repeatedly - it's the only way to know what's really happened.
carhill Posted June 2, 2013 Posted June 2, 2013 OP, one potential to consider is that your wife likes that you love her and, given that she was 23 when marrying you, it's entirely possible, as people change markedly during their early-mid 20's. I'll align with BetrayedH regarding serving her divorce papers, after first getting competent legal advice to protect yourself financially and doing that. Action brings clarity. Her response will tell you everything you need to know, if there isn't sufficient evidence already. My sympathies. EA's are buggers.
secretlady76 Posted June 2, 2013 Posted June 2, 2013 Because she's NOT slut, just like you said. That's why. Married woman falls in love with someone else plus has male friends. Personally I do not define that as slutty. It would be if she was banging all of them!!!! Let's agree to disagree 1
Author JustAboutEnough Posted June 3, 2013 Author Posted June 3, 2013 Don't you think she screwed him when she went out of town? I'd bet money she did. And just because he's been far away doesn't mean he hasn't been the intruder in your M. You're so busy defending her - you don't see how un invested she's actually been in your marriage. I don't think she had sex with him, not even slightly. Too many other variables that I already know would have to be wrong for that to have happened. But I do see how uninvested she is/has become and that is what I want back from her. I've told her that I need 100% from her if we are going to make this work, and that I need T out of the picture to help with that.
Author JustAboutEnough Posted June 3, 2013 Author Posted June 3, 2013 You're confused because your wife is who she is, she was always the way she is, but for your own reasons you chose not to believe what was plain from the start. She was never strongly emotionally connected to you, for whatever reason, but you idealized her and she obviously had her own reasons for wanting to get married and you fit the bill. Most likely you presented as a stable reliable raise-the-kids kind of guy, someone to have kids with, buy the house with, check that off the list, white picket fence, but you never filled her true emotional or sexual needs. Now you are looking around for reasons to blame yourself, looking everywhere for reasons except the obvious, you married a promiscuous somewhat slutty woman pretending to yourself that she was something other than that. It's far easier to blame yourself as an emotionally distant ogre for the marital difficulties than to attribute it to the real cause, your wife is not suited for a monogamous relationship, and never was. At least that gives you some sense of control. This was bad from day one. I wouldn't be surprised if she actually had sex with T at some point when she visited to be a bridesmaid at the wedding. Once it crystallizes to you that you married a slut the blinders will come off and what you need to do going forward will fall into place logically. wow. Alright, out of 'she always had a decent amount of guy friends' you took that to mean she's banged every single guy she's met? No, dude... not even close. She was a tom-boy growing up and hated hanging out with girly girls, so she just naturally connected more with guys than girls (not that uncommon, I knew plenty of girls like that who didn't really like doing the whole 'catty, hs girl' thing) The rest of your response is therefore useless. but thanks for taking the time, I guess..
Author JustAboutEnough Posted June 3, 2013 Author Posted June 3, 2013 I'm going to try and give you advice instead of telling you you're married to a slut. I don't think you are. Your wife is having a relationship with someone. The both of them are getting something out of it. There are feelings involved etc. She is in no mind to finish this relationship. Why? Because it makes her feel good and god fobid you insist she finishes it, especially as she has admitted she has fallen out of love with you. She is in love with him I would suspect, or at least the idea of him. I would imagine she is also very confused and conflicted going forward about what to do too. We could go on about what she has and hasn't done but what you really have to think about it WHY she's doing it. I really do think you need to have a sit down discussion with her, all cards on the table. Tell her that you love her, but you no longer want to be taken for granted. You deserve more than that. Give her two options. Either she agrees to go NC with this guy, go through a period of withdrawal, go to MC with you and give it 100% last shot OR she leaves and you go your seperate ways. I think you have to be very firm with this. If you don't I suspect you will continue to be her door-mat that she has no respect for. Thank you for actually giving me some real advice. This is the plan I've more or less decided upon since I am tired of having this man involved in her life and causing the strain that it does. I'm not sure if its the root of the current sh*t storm that's apparently there, but it certainly won't hurt to get it resolved along with other issues going forward.
Author JustAboutEnough Posted June 3, 2013 Author Posted June 3, 2013 OP, one potential to consider is that your wife likes that you love her and, given that she was 23 when marrying you, it's entirely possible, as people change markedly during their early-mid 20's. I'll align with BetrayedH regarding serving her divorce papers, after first getting competent legal advice to protect yourself financially and doing that. Action brings clarity. Her response will tell you everything you need to know, if there isn't sufficient evidence already. My sympathies. EA's are buggers. I do agree that we are different people than when we got married (we were straight out of college...) but insofar as that goes, aren't ALL people different than they were a decade ago, regardless of what time in their lives that really comes @? I would venture a guess that most 40 year olds aren't close to the same people they were @ 30 (although I undersand the amount of change is probably a little less drastic than 20 to 30). Also, we both are very mature for our age (see: bought a house, settled down, got great jobs very early...) so while I've certainly thought about it as being a factor, I just can't believe that its the ONLY thing causing the current problems between us.
Author JustAboutEnough Posted June 3, 2013 Author Posted June 3, 2013 If the roles would have been reversed, would your wife have put up with such long term disrespect humiliation that you have endured? Would she have been constantly accepting and forgiving as you have been? Your wife has continually made a choice of staying connected to T and disconnecting your relationship with her. It begs the question that down deep she has no respect for your marriage and you. If you do not respect yourself then who will? This is the crux of my utter disappointment in myself with all of this: I'm really not a doormat, at all... I'm a pretty solid type A, get what I want personality... but I know I'm blinded by my feelings and that I don't want to lose the woman who has been there for me for basically me entire adult life. what you say is the truth though... she wouldn't stand for this for a second if it were reversed, and I've said as much directly to her.
2sunny Posted June 3, 2013 Posted June 3, 2013 So what is the plan of action moving forward? What has she agreed to change?
2sunny Posted June 3, 2013 Posted June 3, 2013 The pattern had been since the first year you were married - she invests time and energy with another man...at your expense and the expense of the M. You didn't DO ENOUGH on ALL the occasions that you noticed she was inappropriate. Not enough consequences for her to think you'd leave her for being inappropriate as a married woman! Start giving harsh consequences! The kind that make HER head spin - the kind that make her scared she's losing you! The kind that make her think "I'm getting divorced - I'd better quit this "inappropriate friendship" that's costing me my marriage"!!! She should be OFFERING to quit communicating with the OM - and if she hasn't - you haven't given consequences that make her think twice about the harm she's been doing for years to your marriage! If you're not the doormat - you certainly are guilty of not taking action to have her think "this M is OVER because you've been inappropriate"! 2
carhill Posted June 3, 2013 Posted June 3, 2013 I do agree that we are different people than when we got married (we were straight out of college...) but insofar as that goes, aren't ALL people different than they were a decade ago, regardless of what time in their lives that really comes @? I would venture a guess that most 40 year olds aren't close to the same people they were @ 30 (although I undersand the amount of change is probably a little less drastic than 20 to 30). Also, we both are very mature for our age (see: bought a house, settled down, got great jobs very early...) so while I've certainly thought about it as being a factor, I just can't believe that its the ONLY thing causing the current problems between us. The thrust of my posting was to offer up the potential that, while she may have been in love with you when she married you, the changes over time impelled an emotional change from being in love to liking that you're in love with/love her. Big difference in investment. Actions usually describe this dynamic. If she likes that you love her, it's overwhelmingly likely that her response to the service of divorce papers will be 'whatever' to mildly frustrated or disappointed. It won't really matter to her at an elemental level. Only way to know is to go through it. I've been through a lot of it, the like that he loves me part, the EA part and the divorce part, as well as being a lot older and going through divorces with friends. Certain things stand out. One tip from our psychologist: Identify your number one fear, relevant to your M, and work it. Fear can be a motivator but can also be a paralyzer. Good luck. 1
Jonah Posted June 3, 2013 Posted June 3, 2013 I wish I could be a fly on the wall when you have the divorce papers served. Now is the time and that's the way to do it too... with no warning. Congrats on your masters and CPA guy. ...sorry that you ended up with the wrong gal. Wait a couple of years and try again. That worked for me.
2sunny Posted June 3, 2013 Posted June 3, 2013 OP, can I ask how you can be so sure your wife didn't have a full blown affair? I mean that comment about wanting to know if that first time was a mistake seemed way too extreme to be talking about a kiss. And if it was just a kiss (which I doubt) it means she wants to do it again to see if it means anything. I agree. And she's willing to discuss it openly with her friend - which means she talks behind your back to her friend like its no big deal to betray you. She was referring to having sex with him. She minimized it when you found the evidence. She's probably laughing now behind your back, with her girlfriend, about how you believe her lies so easily. Don't be that guy. She views you as weak and pathetic - a guy that lets her get away with anything because you want THAT badly to believe her lies. She's got you snowed. Have her followed when she goes out of town. Place a voice activated recorder in her purse. Have her take a polygraph and ask her the tough questions. IF she's innocent she will have no problem proving it! She's been cheating - your denial has your rational thinking clouded. 1
Try Posted June 3, 2013 Posted June 3, 2013 (edited) I have told her, though, that I love her enough to let her go and find what makes her truly happy if I really am not that guy anymore. This is very "nice guy" weak. This and other such things that you have said to her tell her that your happiness does not matter as it is all about her. her primary complaint about what's wrong with us is that she's just 'unhappy'. I of course ask 'why'"? and I of course there's no real answer. Just she wants to be happy again.... Again it is all about her happiness. She is unhappy that you are making an issue of her cheating with the OM, and until you let her continue to cheat without complaint she will not be happy. Call bull to this way of thinking. Stop worrying about what makes her happy and have her start to worry instead about you divorcing her if she does not completely end all contact with the OM. And by divorce I do not mean separation. Prison inmates say that when confronted by a homeowner with a gun, they look into the homeowner's eyes to see if they mean business; if they see weakness they do not surrender but instead take the gun away from the homeowner. Divorce shows that you mean business. Separation does not, as it in fact just makes it easier for them to continue cheating while still holding you on a string. Recognize a fact. There has always been this OM in your marriage. Recognize another fact, your wife has been cheating on you with this OM for your entire marraige. He is in love with her, and she is in at least in an emotinal affair (AE) and probably in some level of a physical affair (PA); she admitted to having kissed him and kissing is cheating. Because of this, your marraige never had a real chance. She never committed to just you and only you. What happens when people cheat is that they try to hold their spouses to a standard of perfection that they do not hold themselves to. As humans they know that their spouses are not perfect, so they know that their spouse will fail such a standard of perfection. They want their spouses to fail, so that they can shift blame for their cheating back onto their spouses. Most spouse that are cheated on fall into the trap of trying harder to be perfect spouse so that they can pass this standard of perfection, but it is standard that they can never pass because the judge and jury spouse will always find a new reason to fail them. Get off of the treadmill that your wife has put you on, you are her husband and not her hamster. Stop looking for her confirm that she is cheating on you. Cheaters always lie and she is a cheater. She will never admit the truth to you on her own. It is time for you to act on what you know and how you feel. You matter. What you feel matters. Your happiness matters. It is time that you demand a marraige based on both you and her and not just her. Tell her that she must agree to end all contact with the other man right now. Tell her that if she does not agree to this right now you will treat her not agreeing as her picking the OM man over you and file for divorce. Do not beg or try to get her to agree with you that she was cheating. Do not give her time to think it over. Based on years of you being weak she will probably call your bluff and not agree to end all contact with the OM. File for divorce ASAP and mean it. You can always change your mind but only if she gives you good reason to. If in the end she does not fight to save the marraige, then you do not have a marraige worth saving and it is best for your long term happiness that you know now rather than later. Edited June 3, 2013 by Try 2
jnj express Posted June 3, 2013 Posted June 3, 2013 Hey JAE---you cannot NICE her back into the mge/relationship----you have nice'd her for yrs, and it has gotten you a wife, who now fights you to keep her lover in her life You have one weapon D/threat of D---its time to use it---even if you file, that does not mean, you have to finish the process Your kid plays a role in this---but your wife if she wants to R, must do it for the right reason, and doing it for the kid, may be a legit reason---it is not a reason, that is gonna take you out of the miserable existence you are now in Do not leave the house, should you decide to separate----a good atty, will bury you in a D., proceeding for ABANDONMENT----you stay in your own home, and with your child, no matter what----she wants to separate---that's on her Also---you don't need to speak to T about anything---you did not marry T----it is your wife, who you have your "beef" with, and it is her, and her alone---it is she who you took sacred vows with. You need to tell her, you know you can't make/force her to do anything----if she wants this mge to work, she knows what has to be done---you tell her, you do/will make the decisions for you, and your child, in this instance, cuz what she is doing is leading to the end of this mge, and that is not in the best interests of your child, so she is not gonna make any decisions for your child You just need to put your foot down, as you should have done yrs, ago, the 1st time you discovered her A---Its either your mge, or its T---its her life, she can decide----give her 2 or 3 days---no longer this has gone on for yrs---so she needs to decide what it is she wants----if she won't/can't ---then file for a D. If she says she will go NC---that does not mean she won't go deep underground and continue---so you got a lot of things to figure out---good luck however you decide to go 1
2sunny Posted June 3, 2013 Posted June 3, 2013 As with any situation which you suspect "isn't right" and may end up in court = start searching for your evidence. You can't argue hard evidence! Get busy digging, it's there - there's more to this as its been happening a LONG time - you just haven't found it all yet! 1
touhy Posted June 4, 2013 Posted June 4, 2013 Dear Justaboutenough, You, sir, are being a pussy. Women do not respect that. Women find that pathetic and unattractive. Be the prize. She should be worried she might lose you. You should project sincere indifference and ambivalence if you wish to hold on to her (personally, I would not). I know, I know, "but I can't! I love her so much,,,and my my children." Well sir...you are about to lose them both because of your lack of self respect. She had sex with him (though based on his texts he sounds like a slobbering pussy too.) So sorry to break all this to you. But you neeed to hear the truth. Man up. You are embarrassing us men.
touhy Posted June 4, 2013 Posted June 4, 2013 JNJ Express and 2sunny have presented you with the way forward. Since you seem like a guy who requires a little handholding, I suggest you take their advice. Or, by all means, keep doing what you are doing and continue with the self pity-party. Your choice. It will be terrible either way. Take the path which allows you to look yourself in the mirror (or your childrens' eyes) without shame and self loathing.
2sunny Posted June 5, 2013 Posted June 5, 2013 Your screen name is JUST about enough. I wonder what ENOUGH would have to look like? Decide what YOUR boundary is - and stick to it - you don't want to betray yourself by moving your boundary to adjust to her bad behavior.
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