Do women use sex on the first date to get monogamy?

[joystickd]

Like I said - it's the kind of girls you know. Trust me, I've seen worse than what you're describing happen way more than one occasion - but I've been in different social circles where people move very differently. So it's not a universal thing.

Trust me I understand but as a man you have to treat it like its universal unless she is a virgin. If you don't know 100% that she is not having sex with someone else you must treat the situation like she is because waiting around for the promise of sex opens you up to manipulation.

[Woohoo]

Men should not be answering this question. I'm gonna theorize though this from a male perspective (mostly).

 

Gonna introduce my own term here, "the pennydigger".

 

Pennydigger : Woman who enjoys inexpensive treats from men (meals, drinks etc.), though not maliciously. She sincerely attempts to build attraction to the man but fails, but the number of dates drags out in an attempt to figure it out. Thus making the "almost attractive" male have much heavier expenses, both emotionally and financially then both the "not really dating material man" and the "highly desirable" man. Often the men in these situations are "nice guys."[boring] By the book they are good, in reality, boring.

 

 

 

As men, it was brought up earlier, the less a woman is eager to pounce earlier, the greater the chance of the "friendzone." This causes men to judge quicker and quicker and expect things to move along faster or stop wasting our money and time. If the feedback isn't quick and obvious, or the games are too much, bail quickly, it will hurt less then going out for 10 times with someone and try and try and just get "friendzoned."

 

Pennydigging greatly exasperates this pain. If the guy had not bought nice meals/drinks/etc. then he would have been friendzoned in 2 dates. Instead the experience got drug out to 5 or 10 dates. The girl sincerely wanted to be attracted to him, but just didn't feel it. Ironically, if he hadn't had resources for those dates he would have been friendzoned much quicker and had less of his resources soaked up. Dating can be EXTREMELY expensive and in today's economy most of us can't go the traditional route. Sadly, if your a decent guy, this makes dating a much heavier burden than people like myself.

 

If you have slept with a man after knowing him only 2-3 days before, but don't us, we quickly conclude we are less attractive. So men quickly learn that if she isn't hot for me the first day, she sure as hell won't be the 3rd date, which is remarkably true and accurate.

 

Women sound like they want more time to be chased. The problem is men are cutting this time shorter and shorter and bailing quicker. Fewer men are developing the ability to read these signals and are dumping them sooner because the process of developing that ability is very expensive emotionally and fiscally. So if you aren't putting out strong enough signals he will simply not contact you, after all, most men have met a pennydigger, most nice guys, quite a few.

 

As a man becomes more desirable this accelerates much further/faster. In short, men are getting much faster feedback about their desirability and status and if they don't think it is going anywhere they bail. We know where we stand before you do, whether it is accurate or not.

 

Your competing with other women.

 

Do women use sex on the first date to get monogamy? Some try. Some fail. Some succeed. It is a strategy that so few women will admit to that we probably have no idea if it works or how often. Simultaneously, any man who can be snared by such a demand she will quickly lose attraction regarding. I've had women try, I simply walk, generally on the spot. In fact I had a woman shouting at me in a crowded restaurant in a comical twist recently. No truly desirable man would fall for this, but some women, particularly desperate will run it.

 

Here is a short sample scenario of an individual, uh, semi-hypothetical, I will call her Rachel (you will also get to see how big of an a**hole I can be).

 

Rachel is unhappy with her life. She wants/no needs a man. She has trouble with men, they seem to run away so quick and doesn't know why. She feels like a man could really help out (read: fix) her life and help give it a sense of control. So she is out and meets John. John is small, nice, has facial tattoos, and pretends to be a thug. (I love and appreciate thugs, gangsters, dealers and 1% bikers etc., I always know where I stand with them, the fakers are fun because they are insecure and easily intimidated) He asks her out. As most men run away she insinuates she would have no problem sleeping with a man in a relationship. So John jumps. As John is NOT confident etc., he agrees to this arrangement and move in together.

 

Other men pass Rachel by who are more attractive, she rejects him because she already has a boyfriend, she just won't admit he is a crappy boyfriend.

 

One night, Woohoo(me) is sitting at the bar with a Vet from Iraq. The Vet is big, strong and talking about combat. Alternating between his hatred of hippies (bringing up my long hair) he continually states that I'm not a hippie and cool. He spots John and Rachel sitting in the corner. "Man, I wanna kick his a$$." Vet was lonely, and seeing some piece of fake thug gutter trash with a decent looking woman had really set him off. Additionally the combat had resulted in depression, crippling his ability to communicate with women, making an even harder situation worst.

 

Well, Woohoo, being the wonderful human being I am, figured that if anything I could help Vet out. Something about the relationship, just seeing them their. Wreaked of control issues. Time to play.

 

Walking back from the bathroom I kick a chair out in front of Rachel walking back. "Excuse me! Did you? I could have hurt myself." I ignore her, laugh, pull my chair back and ignore her. She storms off. 30-45 minutes she comes back, demanding an apology angrily, the story has gotten more grandiose how she tripped and was so close to injury. I laugh at her and she walks off. Finally an hour later she comes back, livid. She screams at the top of her lungs and slaps me across the face. I laugh at her. Vet laughs. John comes over, he awkwardly asks for my name, "woohoo" he asks for my FULL NAME (Woohoo W. Woohoo) and I'll give you an address if you like, but you'll have to get it off my friend Vet. Vet laughs and is towers over John. John quickly realizes he is in a VERY bad place. Not only am I bigger than he is, Vet is WAY bigger and clearly WANTS a fight. Vet shoves him repeatedly back until he is out the door shouting at him. He flees to his automobile and we laugh from the street.

 

Rachel steps outside to follow and I say "hey". She stops and call me an *******. "Vet has something he want to say." He looks at me blankly, I mouth "ask her out." He looks a bit surprised. John pulls up in the car, Vet asks in front of John with a big smile, "I want your number." She gives it right in front of John.

 

That is how Vet and Rachel got together. And yes, I'm an a-hole. From what I heard Vet and Rachel were doing pretty good.

[joystickd]

My personal belief is that a man can make it very clear that he is interested without being overt about the sex. A man that can be both patient and virile at the same time is very sexy, imo. These men are clearly very secure with their masculinity and their own self. I appreciate when a man respects me enough to wait, and my appreciation results in greater respect for him as well. This mutual respect is what makes for incredible sex, regardless of how long it takes to get to the bedroom.

 

Insecure women, that always want a man on their arm will do damn near anything to lock a man down including using sex on a first date to try to force a relationship. Unfortunately, these women are the least like to be able to have a healthy relationship because they lack a fundamental respect for themselves.

The question is do you respect the man enough to be real and not shoot the BS

[tbf]

Does any woman REALLY think that having sex on the first date will make the guy more likely to commit to them than he would otherwise?

More often, it's bending over to male expectations of early sex not because she feels he'll stay but because she fears losing him so she lets it happen. Or she might be the sport f&ck1ng type, capable of compartmentalizing sex like men.

 

Unless a woman can compartmentalize, sex on the first date is asking to be hurt.

[ThaWholigan]

I'm curious for opinions on the feeling that men have to go for the sex early as there's no telling whether if you wait she isn't f*cking someone on the side. Now I've known countless situations like these myself and have referenced them before - but I also know that this isn't the same for all women, much as many will assert. I feel that this ties in with the whole "using sex on the first date".

 

Maybe it isn't just wanting/expecting early sex, but perhaps seeking assurance of interest. I sometimes joke that the only way a man will truly know if a woman's really interested in him is if his dick is inside her . A crude joke I'll admit, but for some there may be a small grain of truth. My own opinion as always is that it varies - different types of people of course. I've been around scenarios like the one Woohoo just posted more than once - it's not a farfetched story, and I certainly have friends who are c*ntish social engineers too . I only caution that if one thinks that the people in the story and women who are easily drawn to such scenarios, and ones referenced by a few other posters - if one thinks that they comprise of the vast majority, that would be a detrimental way to view things. Some like to view pessimism as "realism" and that preparing for the worst is the way forward - me personally, I'm not convinced.

[joystickd]

 

Maybe it isn't just wanting/expecting early sex, but perhaps seeking assurance of interest. I sometimes joke that the only way a man will truly know if a woman's really interested in him is if his dick is inside her . A crude joke I'll admit, but for some there may be a small grain of truth.

The thing is waiting is almost like being a eunuch and having a conversation with a woman. As a man you really don't know if she is interested in you or just going along for the ride for some attention to boost her ego. If would be different if over time it escalated and lead to sex but usually it's more like going out with a friend and you thinking of how to bring it up and being frustrated wondering "Where in the hell is this going?" or "Is she really into me".

 

Then you have the women that talk about emotional intimacy. Women are emotional so it's easy to bear your soul. Why as a man would I do something I rarely do to someone who I am unsure is into me? Why risk doing that only to be told "I just want to be friends"? You talk about the risks of women having sex but when it comes to the risks men have women are like " Who gives a f**k!". In a sense that is how it feels. Being vulnerable emotionally is a very big thing for a man. Women fail to realize this and take it for granted.

[ThaWholigan]

The thing is waiting is almost like being a eunuch and having a conversation with a woman. As a man you really don't know if she is interested in you or just going along for the ride for some attention to boost her ego. If would be different if over time it escalated and lead to sex but usually it's more like going out with a friend and you thinking of how to bring it up and being frustrated wondering "Where in the hell is this going?" or "Is she really into me".

 

Sounds like the kind of questions you would associate with women. Just goes to show the similarities between the genders and how people actually are as individuals rather than grouped together into gender.

 

I absolutely understand this POV though, and the thought process behind it. I have reached a stage personally where these things generally aren't much of a problem, but I am aware that not everybody will process things the way I will.

 

Then you have the women that talk about emotional intimacy. Women are emotional so it's easy to bear your soul. Why as a man would I do something I rarely do to someone who I am unsure is into me? Why risk doing that only to be told "I just want to be friends"? You talk about the risks of women having sex but when it comes to the risks men have women are like " Who gives a f**k!". In a sense that is how it feels. Being vulnerable emotionally is a very big thing for a man. Women fail to realize this and take it for granted.

 

There is truth in this - some women do expect men to "man up" and expect you to be emotionally resilient regardless of how bruised your ego may be. Me personally, being emotionally vulnerable has helped me grow up really. I have always been an extremely sensitive soul so I completely understand where you are coming from. But when it came down to the crunch, I would usually allow myself to take the hit emotionally speaking.

 

I tend not to take it to heart if she just wants to be friends - sometimes I surprise myself with how little I care whenever I hear it

[joystickd]

Sounds like the kind of questions you would associate with women. Just goes to show the similarities between the genders and how people actually are as individuals rather than grouped together into gender.

 

I absolutely understand this POV though, and the thought process behind it. I have reached a stage personally where these things generally aren't much of a problem, but I am aware that not everybody will process things the way I will.

 

 

 

There is truth in this - some women do expect men to "man up" and expect you to be emotionally resilient regardless of how bruised your ego may be. Me personally, being emotionally vulnerable has helped me grow up really. I have always been an extremely sensitive soul so I completely understand where you are coming from. But when it came down to the crunch, I would usually allow myself to take the hit emotionally speaking.

 

I tend not to take it to heart if she just wants to be friends - sometimes I surprise myself with how little I care whenever I hear it

It's not even about being friend zoned. I know as a rule for me if a woman says "I just like you as a friend" then it's like she is dead to me. I don't speak to her anymore not because I'm mad or anything, but because I'm not settling for something. It's all or nothing for me.

 

It's not about being emotionally resilient. It's about the man giving but I'm having to wait. It's more of a way for them to control the dynamic of the relationship. If she makes the man wait there is the hopeful expectation that he will be more invested than she is in the relationship. In general relationship where the man is more invested than the women are trouble. Ideally it should be equal or woman more invested but that gap shouldn't even be too great. If you are more invested and doing things all the time then you run into being the "nice guy".

 

Then there is also as a man during this waiting process you never know how this woman really feels about you. For example what happened to me recently I had a woman that said " I like you" this after I told her how I felt. I really put it all out there. When I brought up the subject of sex it was "I'll think about it". After a while I went and got a FWB. I still pursued her and if she was willing would have dropped the FWB. I told her about the FWB considering we were friends before all of this and told each other everything. I know I had got curious and asked was she giving me the runaround and she came out and said I never really felt anything but friendship. The truth was I was more invested in the situation than she was and she knew it, but she got mad when she realized I was f**king someone. Before telling me this she had even named someone and asked was I having sex with them, but at the same time I know for a fact a guy would go see her and spend the night.

[tbf]

I tend not to take it to heart if she just wants to be friends - sometimes I surprise myself with how little I care whenever I hear it

That's because you don't hang your self-esteem based on bed notches. In doing so, people leave themselves at the mercy of other people's whims and societal dictates. It's the difference between a well rooted tree and leaves blown around in the wind.

[joystickd]

That's because you don't hang your self-esteem based on bed notches. In doing so, people leave themselves at the mercy of other people's whims and societal dictates. It's the difference between a well rooted tree and leaves blown around in the wind.

It's not about self esteem. When you wait and spend time getting to know someone if there is interest over time investment will happen. The only way I will wait is if I am already f**king someone. At the end of the day on some level rejection bothers everyone even the well rooted tree.

[ThaWholigan]

It's not even about being friend zoned. I know as a rule for me if a woman says "I just like you as a friend" then it's like she is dead to me. I don't speak to her anymore not because I'm mad or anything, but because I'm not settling for something. It's all or nothing for me.

 

It's not about being emotionally resilient. It's about the man giving but I'm having to wait. It's more of a way for them to control the dynamic of the relationship. If she makes the man wait there is the hopeful expectation that he will be more invested than she is in the relationship. In general relationship where the man is more invested than the women are trouble. Ideally it should be equal or woman more invested but that gap shouldn't even be too great. If you are more invested and doing things all the time then you run into being the "nice guy".

 

Then there is also as a man during this waiting process you never know how this woman really feels about you. For example what happened to me recently I had a woman that said " I like you" this after I told her how I felt. I really put it all out there. When I brought up the subject of sex it was "I'll think about it". After a while I went and got a FWB. I still pursued her and if she was willing would have dropped the FWB. I told her about the FWB considering we were friends before all of this and told each other everything. I know I had got curious and asked was she giving me the runaround and she came out and said I never really felt anything but friendship. The truth was I was more invested in the situation than she was and she knew it, but she got mad when she realized I was f**king someone. Before telling me this she had even named someone and asked was I having sex with them, but at the same time I know for a fact a guy would go see her and spend the night.

Oh, so you don't want to be the one doing the giving while she's doing all the taking? She's taking all your energy and time and not giving up the goods. I hear that.

 

But still, the key is in not thinking about it in extremes. I can do stuff with the girl without running the risk of "being the nice guy" simply because I do have boundaries but at the same time I am happy doing the waiting and sh*t. Put it this way - I'm well aware of what I'm investing and just how quickly I can draw my investment out.

[joystickd]

Like I said it's easy as hell to talk the talk on here, but can you walk the walk IRL

[joystickd]

Oh, so you don't want to be the one doing the giving while she's doing all the taking? She's taking all your energy and time and not giving up the goods. I hear that.

 

But still, the key is in not thinking about it in extremes. I can do stuff with the girl without running the risk of "being the nice guy" simply because I do have boundaries but at the same time I am happy doing the waiting and sh*t. Put it this way - I'm well aware of what I'm investing and just how quickly I can draw my investment out.

I have boundaries too but at the same time when you are spending time with someone in that capacity you will develop feelings and you don't want to find out it was all for nothing.

[ThaWholigan]

Like I said it's easy as hell to talk the talk on here, but can you walk the walk IRL

I've been walking it, dude . I've had a carbon copy of your situation already, and I simply took it in my stride because I had to.

[ThaWholigan]

I have boundaries too but at the same time when you are spending time with someone in that capacity you will develop feelings and you don't want to find out it was all for nothing.

 

Yes, I've experienced that too.

 

Sometimes, sh*t like that happens. I learned to accept that without getting mad about it - sometimes you make that mistake, you don't have the hindsight, it happens.

 

I don't want to get at you because I truly understand your view, trust me. I just don't have the same feelings about these things, I don't see the problem with waiting when it comes to a girl - I don't have that fear that she will be f*cking someone else while she's seeing me. I would be able to clock the pattern first of all, and if that, I would know what kind of girl would be doing that. I would know due to the different social circles I frequent and how they move.

 

Still, I hear you on the matter.

[tbf]

It's not about self esteem. When you wait and spend time getting to know someone if there is interest over time investment will happen. The only way I will wait is if I am already f**king someone. At the end of the day on some level rejection bothers everyone even the well rooted tree.

joystickd, to use TW's phrase, you're so outcome dependent. You set up a plan, then get upset when the plan falls apart. Learn to live in the moment a bit. Relax. If you're attracted, ask them out right away. If they reject, no harm, no foul. It isn't the end of the world. Move onto the next one.

[joystickd]

joystickd, to use TW's phrase, you're so outcome dependent. You set up a plan, then get upset when the plan falls apart. Learn to live in the moment a bit. Relax. If you're attracted, ask them out right away. If they reject, no harm, no foul. It isn't the end of the world. Move onto the next one.

WTF I don't set up a plan. All I am saying is waiting for sex is ABSOLUTE BS!!!

If in the beginning i'm putting in majority of the work and getting invested only to get rejected. Why go through that? As of right now I have an FWB and a woman I can go to if I have no one else to screw. As you say I'm living in the moment lol

 

I got really put through the ringer a few years ago so the subject of women and the BS games they play brings out something in me. Trust and believe I live in the moment but as they always say fail to plan is a plan to fail LMAO

[joystickd]

The last time I really lived in the moment I got my first date. That was at age 24. I was happy about that until I found out she sold her P days after the date. How's that for living in the moment? I spent a lot of years really dealing with the BS and games of women so my perspective is different I have to have a gameplan. These women out here do, but it's wrong for me to have one.

 

I am a lot nicer stuff than I used to be. I was cold blooded after my very first experiences. Sometimes I think I need to go back to being that. You not giving the P after this amount of time bye. What one woman won't do another will

Edited May 27, 2013 by joystickd

[jcrew11]

Not all women. Some women have sex on the first date just for fun. Women enjoy sex too. How would you sense that women use sex on the first date to keep a man?

 

I beg to differ. Among my friends, most of them use the *absence* of sex to keep the men that they date interested, and to get relationships.

 

Hah, another sex-positive liberated feminist! You should tell all the other women who "slut shame" all the other women who don't wait and 'steal' their player boyfriends from them. Many women, especially divorced older conservative women take dating slowly and complain how "it is survival of the sluttiest."

 

Females can't complain about "sexual liberation" and then expect Men to revert to conservative 1950's dating philosophies, and wait until marriage/engagement to have sex.

 

Women simply want control over men and monogamy with a boyfriend - but that is difficult to ask and obtain, because "everyone has freedom of lots of options these days" and the threshold of "monogamy and marriage" is set at a higher bar, when successful alpha men have so many loose liberated females available to them.

[Adele0908]

Hah, another sex-positive liberated feminist! You should tell all the other women who "slut shame" all the other women who don't wait and 'steal' their player boyfriends from them. Many women, especially divorced older conservative women take dating slowly and complain how "it is survival of the sluttiest."

 

Females can't complain about "sexual liberation" and then expect Men to revert to conservative 1950's dating philosophies, and wait until marriage/engagement to have sex.

 

Women simply want control over men and monogamy with a boyfriend - but that is difficult to ask and obtain, because "everyone has freedom of lots of options these days" and the threshold of "monogamy and marriage" is set at a higher bar, when successful alpha men have so many loose liberated females available to them.

I have no idea what you're saying. Agreeing or disagreeing? I'm not at war with men or women so you're on your own with that one.

[BluEyeL]

Sex on the first date is the best way not to get monogamy. If I was to ever do that (doubt it highly), I'd do it with someone I am absolutely sure I DO NOT want monogamy/relationship with.

 

In terms of how long to wait....as long as it feels right, no set time limits, when I'm sure the guy really likes me and will not poof after sex. A man who likes her, and doesn't think of a woman just as another of his many options, AND is in the right place in his life to have a relationship will not put an artificial limit on this, and things will go well. The ones that will leave because they have many options who put out by his time limit don't think of you as special in any way. Therefore why would one want to be with him anyway? That's my thinking on the timeline to sex. I think it will be very difficult to find that special man, but anything worth it is difficult to obtain, I think.

[phineas]

Well, in my experience a man can let a woman know he is interested by occasionally texting just to say hi/good morning/how's your day, small gestures, showing her that he wants to spend time with her, listening to her and trying to understand her. When together it's nice when he whistles under his breath when I walk away, brushes his hand across my hand or knee but never pushes for more. It's all about being subtle, subtlety builds desire. If a man spends this sort of energy to woo me, then he deserves a chance

 

He doesn't have to say he likes me, he will show me with his actions.

 

and what do you do in return to show him you arn't thinking about your next date with someone else?

If you aren't & you are giving off the impression of:

 

"deserves a chance"

i'm going to be "no thanks jef." and go golfing with the guys.

[jcrew11]

I have no idea what you're saying. Agreeing or disagreeing? I'm not at war with men or women so you're on your own with that one.

 

Its not necessarily having sex on the first date, but definitely within a month, or the guy thinks he is being friend-zoned and moves on. I'm merely saying there are some women (perhaps many women) who expect sex to lead to monogamy even at the 3rd date.

 

The sex could be bad, or the guy just sees better options with the other women. Sure, it is bad to use a woman's body, but I'm merely saying that sex does not lead to monogamy, even if the woman becomes emotionally attached.

 

I think woman falsely believe that sex at any time will lead to monogamy by the man, and then they complain when the guy dumps her or cheats on her. Its not because he is a player, its because the girl is nothing special, or at least not special enough to be monogamous, and that is the painful truth. Its easier to blame the man for cheating, but its more painful to deal with the truth that the woman doesn't want to be alone and single.

[Maleficent]

Sex on the first date is the best way not to get monogamy. If I was to ever do that (doubt it highly), I'd do it with someone I am absolutely sure I DO NOT want monogamy/relationship with.

 

In terms of how long to wait....as long as it feels right, no set time limits, when I'm sure the guy really likes me and will not poof after sex. A man who likes her, and doesn't think of a woman just as another of his many options, AND is in the right place in his life to have a relationship will not put an artificial limit on this, and things will go well. The ones that will leave because they have many options who put out by his time limit don't think of you as special in any way. Therefore why would one want to be with him anyway? That's my thinking on the timeline to sex. I think it will be very difficult to find that special man, but anything worth it is difficult to obtain, I think.

 

No set time limit? By saying 'not the first date' you are setting a time limit.

If it feels right to sleep with the person on the first date, I do it. I'm pretty sure it has no effect whatsoever on the fact or not we end up in a relationship. Guy who wants a relationship goes for a relationship no matter what - guy who wants sex will go for sex no matter what.

[therhythm]

Sex on the first date is the best way not to get monogamy. If I was to ever do that (doubt it highly), I'd do it with someone I am absolutely sure I DO NOT want monogamy/relationship with.

 

 

Well there is where I would have a problem to wait.. if I ever know a girl used to have ONS makes me wait for sex I would assume she is not that attracted physically for me as she was for those other guys and that for me is the end of any possible relationship. I don't like when women use sex as a power tool to get into a relationship, I would feel stupid if someone tells me the girl I am dating for a month who has made me wait for sex used to have casual sex with other guys . I am speaking out experience on this one because it happened to me once and I hated it! She said that she wanted more with me than with the others but that didn't get my feeling that she was playing games out of my system... the thing never worked between us anymore.

Funny thing she is still a fwb now