I Wanna Jam, But He Won't Play With Me (Sorry, Long, and a bit Whiny)

[c57dood]

What do you do about it? Write a song about it, DUH!

[ScreamingTrees]

Taylor Swift's pretty good at it.

[frustr8ed]

Instead of saying "Together We Can Make Such Sweet Music" say "Together We Can Make Such Dirty Nasty Sweaty Music." You'll get a much better response out of him.

[Aerrie]

I will NEVER ever date a musician again, she destroyed my heart 7 years ago and it will never properly heal

Her musician friends were even worse.

[Janesays]

Not a musician, so I'm not sure if this fits, but I'll throw it out there.

 

I don't like working on projects with people in my field that are of a lower skill level than me. I don't mind at all working with people who are equal or above my skill level. But lower? Never. Not my style.

 

The reason why is because I'm always looking to improve my techniques. You improve by working with your equals or your betters. When you work with someone who is less skilled than you, it had a tendency to set YOUR OWN skill level back some. I don't date anyone in my field, but I do take my career seriously, so I think I would behave like your boyfriend if I was with someone in my field. I'm not going to regress myself just to make some gooey fantasy of a SO come true. That's silly.

 

I don't know how serious your boyfriend is about his music, but what stood out to me was that you mentioned he was playing at a higher skill level than you. I don't know how much he knows about science, but if he were to 'jam' with you, he would most likely slightly regress in his playing. YOU'D probably improve, but he would regress. Moreso if he did it often. If he takes his music seriously and considers it his financial livelihood, he may not want to jeopardize his playing over a sappy little romantic fantasy in your head.

 

As for what you can do? Improve your skill level. Throw yourself into your playing until you are just as good as him, if not BETTER than him. If I'm right, he'll likely want to play with you when you're an equal and not a hindrance.

[serial muse]

Yes, I think he was probably somewhat dismissive of her work (gauging by what I've encountered, although he does at least acknowledge I can sing). I think he did try at one time to play with her, and I can see that what may have happened in the past is certainly not helping matters for me now (and I've encountered several situations ouside the relationship where all it took was one freakin' folkie chick to ruin it for the rest of us).

 

As for what actually happened, he didn't give too much detail. It seems like this other person did basically try to steamroll her way into the musical aspect of his life, in a rather demanding way. I can understand that that may have made him feel very threatened, very defensive, very awkward. Because, and I've acknowledged and praised this before, he has worked very hard to get where he is. And, hell, I've worked hard to stay viable, too, despite some pretty major setbacks.

 

Interesting...I wasn't so much thinking about how he felt threatened but wondering if, once he was dismissive of her music, she felt hurt and defensive, and basically that precipitated a major fight. It's such a personal sensitive thing, and criticism -- especially if not expressed with tact -- can be the source of a lot of hurt feelings, particularly when you're not just colleagues or bandmates but also romantically involved. Perhaps that's what he fears and is trying to avoid?

 

As a possible quasi-parallel, my husband and I are both writers, and although once in a while I let him read my stuff, for the most part I don't really want him to. It can get heated and testy if he critiques me (and the same is true in reverse). So we talk about ideas, and the language of writing, and techniques, and it's wonderful to share those thoughts with someone who "gets it" - but when it comes to the actual text, we kind of keep it separate.

Edited May 24, 2013 by serial muse

[Honour]

That's a very good point, and one that had occurred to me as well. And, I can totally respect that. I guess to me it's more a question of acknowledging and discussing it, then. That way we can each know where we're coming from, rather than have this sadness and feeling of rejection building. (And, yes, it sounds like that's EXACTLY what happened. Once again, lucky me, I get to pay for someone else's deal...)

[Honour]

Not a musician, so I'm not sure if this fits, but I'll throw it out there.

 

I don't like working on projects with people in my field that are of a lower skill level than me. I don't mind at all working with people who are equal or above my skill level. But lower? Never. Not my style.

 

 

 

I get that as being a possibility, perception-wise. I would say this, though--sometimes working with someone at a DIFFERENT skill level can be both challenging and illuminating. Sometimes people at or "above" a certain level fall into complacency and stay within some set of boxed parameters, and a different perspective can bring renewed vitality and relevance into the equation. (Not merely looking for some gooey SO fantasy, btw; I can be judged on my own merits and just want to be treated with the respect I have earned.)

 

But I remember when I was a kid, I'd play tennis with my dad (a nearly professional level player) and he would cut me no quarter, serving 100+ mph to an 8-year-old, expecting me to return the serve. And I would. Well.

 

In other words, I'm used to being fast on my feet. I may have less, or different, experience, but I can hang (and have) with virtually anyone at every level, as long as there's a discernible groove to lock onto. It doesn't matter what key, what pitch, what tempo, what rhythm, etc. You play it, I'll sing it.

 

With music, in my mind, you either get it or you don't. You can "learn", you can "practice", but if the sensibility and the feel aren't there, you're just a technician. So I'm not a technician. Shoot me.

 

Which, when it comes right down to it may also be part of it (and it seems like a lot of the people who replied might understand). I've gone out and played, following Juilliard-trained musicians, only to be received with so much more warmth and appreciation than them, that the person literally never speaks to me again.

 

It DOES seem to piss people off when they have talent AND they've studied theory and composition and the like, and then I come stumbling in with my admittedly very rudimentary skills and perform an original that basically renders them obsolete. It doesn't happen all the time, but it has happened.

 

Maybe it's a combination of all those things. He has worked very hard to get where he's at, and he deserves the place he holds. But all it would take would be for someone to buy or do something with one of my silly little songs, and he would be relegated to a very secondary tier. (Because, ultimately, what's a cover but an original that's had a coming-out party?)

 

So there may be a little bit of looking down on me for being a lowly amateur, and a mere female at that, compounded by the apparently traumatic memories of a penis-less someone in his past having had the temerity to DARE to want to play with him, PLUS the never-to-be acknowledged dread of thinking I might actually have something to offer that he doesn't...yeah, I can see where he would freeze up in horror at the unmitigated thought.

 

Ok, and I better stop right here, before I go from the respect and admiration I have for him as a musician (and as a boyfriend), and end up looking down on HIM as someone too self-centered and petty and insecure to get over himself and just cut loose with a couple of tunes with the woman he supposedly loves. Just, as Screaming Trees said, because it might make me happy and there's no harm in it.

 

Thank you all for sharing your wonderful insights, I really do feel better.

 

Just last night I did go out to jam with friends and marveled as a gifted player's skill AND understanding helped turn one of my songs into the lush, gorgeous appreciation of a hard-won love that I had envisioned. We'll be working on the recording for the next few weeks!

 

I'm sorry, Lucky Lady 13, that your relationship didn't work out, and I'm so glad that your current guy seems cooler. And, Aerrie, I'm sorry things went so bad for you, hope things have gotten better for you. (c57dood, you KNOW the song's all but written, and it ROCKS!!)

 

Hopefully my guy can get over himself (and I can get over myself, lol) and we can get over this hurdle, because he really is awesome otherwise. I just wanna play, is all.

[Honour]

 

As for what you can do? Improve your skill level. Throw yourself into your playing until you are just as good as him, if not BETTER than him. If I'm right, he'll likely want to play with you when you're an equal and not a hindrance.

 

I actually DO work at it, and am continually striving to be better and come up with different ways to convey emotion and atmosphere, but at the rate things are going (and if he does secretly share your attitude, which is very likely) by the time I reach some mystical level that he deems worthy, I will no longer give a ****, and I will not be interested in what he has to offer musically because it will not add a damn thing to what I can accomplish for myself (which is pretty much the case now, lol, now that I think about it).

 

I shouldn't need to earn a basic jam in the living room, or a whimsical karaoke duet (ewww, I know), or a simple harmony thrown in here and there. Because, if I do, what's next? Fake boobs before he wants to have sex? And yes, I make the analogy again, because if he's going to reject me as a musician only and exclusively because I don't have a penis and I'm his girlfriend, then HE'S the one who's making this nothing more than one more petty thing to disagree about, instead of allowing it to be one more wonderful thing we could be sharing.

 

I guess, when it comes down to it, it is about respect and me feeling like I'm not getting it in an area that's very important to me. And, unless the dozens of skilled players I've performed with and countless "fans" who come up to me and remember me years after I've been in a given band are ALL just humoring me for some reason, I really don't suck.

[Janesays]

I actually DO work at it, and am continually striving to be better and come up with different ways to convey emotion and atmosphere, but at the rate things are going (and if he does secretly share your attitude, which is very likely)

 

First of all, this isn't about having an "attitude." It's about basic science. Which, by the way, is MY field of study.

 

by the time I reach some mystical level that he deems worthy,

 

Again, the defensiveness where there should be none. Again, it's not about you being 'worthy.' You are currently at a less trained skill level. That is nothing bad about you. It's a strictly neutral statement. Doesn't mean he doesn't like your music or respect it or enjoy it.

 

It simply would mean that HE is still trying to improve and science says that working with equals or people who are more advanced that you will make it quicker and easier to improve. (Hence you learning to return your father's serve. If you had been playing with someone who was LESS advanced that you, you would not have caught on as quickly and easily)Working with people who are at a lower skill level will cause regressions. Plenty of science backs up this statement.

 

Let me put it this way, if he felt he was at the very top of his game, who he practiced with wouldn't be a big deal to him. It's only when you're actively trying to improve YOURSELF that the skill level of those around you becomes relevant.

 

In short, this shouldn't be about YOU. This should be about what he's personally try to accomplish.

 

I shouldn't need to earn a basic jam in the living room, or a whimsical karaoke duet (ewww, I know), or a simple harmony thrown in here and there. Because, if I do, what's next? Fake boobs before he wants to have sex? And yes, I make the analogy again, because if he's going to reject me as a musician only and exclusively because I don't have a penis and I'm his girlfriend, then HE'S the one who's making this nothing more than one more petty thing to disagree about, instead of allowing it to be one more wonderful thing we could be sharing.

 

If he views music as this strictly emotional thing, 'sharing' an 'experience' with you would be at the top of his list of priorities. If he's serious about it and considers it his future and his livelihood, then IMPROVING HIMSELF should be at the top of his priorities.

 

Again, this isn't about YOU not being good enough. This is about HIM feeling not good enough and looking for mentors that can help HIM improve.

 

Quit taking such a minor thing so personally.

 

Honestly, you sound like the dramatic one here.

[RogerWallace111]

Jane, I see where you're coming from, but with all due respect, the workings of scientific hierarchy and skill-building don't really apply to music. And if they do, it's to the more clinical branches of it, i.e. playing other people's compositions note-for-note in a symphony, knowledge of music theory, etc.

[RogerWallace111]

In other words, I'm used to being fast on my feet. I may have less, or different, experience, but I can hang (and have) with virtually anyone at every level, as long as there's a discernible groove to lock onto. It doesn't matter what key, what pitch, what tempo, what rhythm, etc. You play it, I'll sing it.

 

With music, in my mind, you either get it or you don't. You can "learn", you can "practice", but if the sensibility and the feel aren't there, you're just a technician. So I'm not a technician. Shoot me.

 

Which, when it comes right down to it may also be part of it (and it seems like a lot of the people who replied might understand). I've gone out and played, following Juilliard-trained musicians, only to be received with so much more warmth and appreciation than them, that the person literally never speaks to me again.

 

It DOES seem to piss people off when they have talent AND they've studied theory and composition and the like, and then I come stumbling in with my admittedly very rudimentary skills and perform an original that basically renders them obsolete. It doesn't happen all the time, but it has happened.

 

 

Well, we're on the same page. Technical prowess can not be equated to creativity. The latter of which is VASTLY more important. In my opinion of course. A naturally-gifted 13 year old kid singing the unaffected, beautiful melodies he/she hears in their head would impress me infinitely more than some guy who's devoted 40 years to being the fastest, most technically spot-on jazz guitarist around. I can respect the work that takes, but beyond that...

 

I'm trying to put together a group right now and I'm specifically looking for those without the years of sterile practice, etc. People with an original, natural sense that isn't going to be caged in by years of ingrained patterns learned from some traditional line of training. I much prefer raw soulfulness to refined recital.

[RogerWallace111]

And I've experienced that same sh*t with those highly-trained musicians who are locked into their sets of motions... They resent the sh*t out of me for bringing a more unchained, unique type of beauty to the music and getting a better response. But I'm so glad to not be just "another one of those" singers or ________ players.

[ThaWholigan]

And I've experienced that same sh*t with those highly-trained musicians who are locked into their sets of motions... They resent the sh*t out of me for bringing a more unchained, unique type of beauty to the music and getting a better response. But I'm so glad to not be just "another one of those" singers or ________ players.

That's pretty funny. I've gotten a reputation for being something of a maverick - my friends used to rib me for never rehearsing before a show (which is true, I went through a stage of performing without rehearsing). It's come back to bite me on the ass a bit because now I'm all creativity but lacking the technical skill I used to have.

 

I absolutely hear you though - I personally feel a balance of sorts is necessary.

[Vinegar]

I have to be blunt here because this is not good. I have been in the same situation. My ex did not want to make music with me and we are both musicians. he said he hated the Captain and Tennille thing which I can understand. I was always trying to get his approval for what I do and it can be very difficult and competitive.

 

BUT... he was very supportive of me, he came to my gigs, he gave me advice and helped out when I needed it even though he doesn't necessarily like the style of music I play. we have also played together even though he didn't really want to.

 

it sounds to me like there is a lack of emotional support from him which has nothing to do with musical ability. If he cares about your feelings he would have you get up and jam with him and be supportive of the outcome. you should not feel like some sort of groupie. I see musicians of all levels jam together and nobody judges. if everything is all about him and his gigs, etc. he does not care enough about your feelings.

 

I have had this fantasy myself that it would be great to make music with someone I am with and it has almost always created a problem.

[crederer]

I'm a former musician. He may just see it as work and doesn't want to "work" with you or associate you with work.

[Vinegar]

First of all, this isn't about having an "attitude." It's about basic science. Which, by the way, is MY field of study.

 

 

 

Again, the defensiveness where there should be none. Again, it's not about you being 'worthy.' You are currently at a less trained skill level. That is nothing bad about you. It's a strictly neutral statement. Doesn't mean he doesn't like your music or respect it or enjoy it.

 

It simply would mean that HE is still trying to improve and science says that working with equals or people who are more advanced that you will make it quicker and easier to improve. (Hence you learning to return your father's serve. If you had been playing with someone who was LESS advanced that you, you would not have caught on as quickly and easily)Working with people who are at a lower skill level will cause regressions. Plenty of science backs up this statement.

 

Let me put it this way, if he felt he was at the very top of his game, who he practiced with wouldn't be a big deal to him. It's only when you're actively trying to improve YOURSELF that the skill level of those around you becomes relevant.

 

In short, this shouldn't be about YOU. This should be about what he's personally try to accomplish.

 

 

 

If he views music as this strictly emotional thing, 'sharing' an 'experience' with you would be at the top of his list of priorities. If he's serious about it and considers it his future and his livelihood, then IMPROVING HIMSELF should be at the top of his priorities.

 

Again, this isn't about YOU not being good enough. This is about HIM feeling not good enough and looking for mentors that can help HIM improve.

 

Quit taking such a minor thing so personally.

 

Honestly, you sound like the dramatic one here.

 

 

I have to disagree with this because she is not talking about working together she is referring to a "jam" which is casual and not so much about ability. If he jams with a lot of other people he should jam with her. If he feels like, "that is so cute you play music" he is not taking her seriously at all which has nothing to do with skill level. Her feelings about her own music need to be validated in a relationship. At the heart of it he is being competitive.

Edited May 24, 2013 by Vinegar

[Janesays]

Jane, I see where you're coming from, but with all due respect, the workings of scientific hierarchy and skill-building don't really apply to music. And if they do, it's to the more clinical branches of it, i.e. playing other people's compositions note-for-note in a symphony, knowledge of music theory, etc.

 

Well, yes and no.

 

If we're talking about singing, maybe not.

 

If we're talking about playing an instrument, it absolutely applies. Any physical skill that requires muscle memory is the very thing I'm talking about. I was assuming this guy played an instrument.

[jobaba]

He plays and sings classic rock, jazz, blues, and the like.

 

I play (but mostly sing) blues, Caribbean, classic rock, and jazzy stuff.

 

He does covers, I do both covers and originals.

 

Obviously, you're talking about on an amateur (non-touring) level.

 

I'm a musician. I'm an amateur but I've played for almost 20 years and am usually better than most amateurs I across who are under the age of 50. Rock, blues, and jazz. I've played all of those styles live.

 

Here's the thing with musicians. There's:

 

A) Musicians who are too good to play with you.

 

B) Musicians who THINK they are too good to play with you.

 

There's musicians that I play with who I would not want to get on stage with because the level that they play is just so much higher than me. This is especially true of jazz.

 

But they have invited me to get up. They'll just go slower and pick a tune I know well. For rock and blues, this is so easy. Most of the tunes are easy, so in essence Paul Gilbert or Eddie Van Halen could invite a 10 year old guitar player up on stage and they could play 'something'. I've seen some of the most talented musicians on Earth get on stage with people who are my level or worse. But it was for fun.

 

But I know who I can hang with and who I can't. It's a very clear line, even for vocalists. If I go to a jazz open mic, they'll eat me up alive. But then again, those are all pros in reality.

 

It sounds to me like he just thinks he's a lot better than you.

[jobaba]

Well, we're on the same page. Technical prowess can not be equated to creativity. The latter of which is VASTLY more important. In my opinion of course. A naturally-gifted 13 year old kid singing the unaffected, beautiful melodies he/she hears in their head would impress me infinitely more than some guy who's devoted 40 years to being the fastest, most technically spot-on jazz guitarist around. I can respect the work that takes, but beyond that...

 

I'm trying to put together a group right now and I'm specifically looking for those without the years of sterile practice, etc. People with an original, natural sense that isn't going to be caged in by years of ingrained patterns learned from some traditional line of training. I much prefer raw soulfulness to refined recital.

 

Creativity comes from years and years of practice. From copying songs and from improving your technical skills to get the songs out from the instrument.

 

I have almost never met a musician who is any decent who has not put in tons of hours over years. In fact, I can say never.

 

I had an ex-girlfriend who could sing really well along with the radio and at karaoke, and then when I played the same songs for her on the guitar, she couldn't sing along. She couldn't follow the beat. She never worked on it. Basically, she sucked.

 

The more work you put in, the higher level you achieve.

Edited May 25, 2013 by jobaba

[jobaba]

Also OP.

 

Every good rock cover band needs someone to do backup vocal harmonies. If you can learn to do that, that may be your way in.

[Geiss]

He seems pretty damn selfish. You've been going out for a year and a half and he still won't jam with you? I'm a musician too and I feel the same way that you do. If I met a girl that was a musician I would want to jam with her. Is this guy a rock star or something? It just tells me he doesn't really care about you. I mean do you do anything else? Go out for dinner or movies or whatever? Or just bum around the home. Playing your instrument by yourself. Do you guys actually do anything?

[Honour]

Creativity comes from years and years of practice. From copying songs and from improving your technical skills to get the songs out from the instrument.

 

I have almost never met a musician who is any decent who has not put in tons of hours over years. In fact, I can say never.

 

I had an ex-girlfriend who could sing really well along with the radio and at karaoke, and then when I played the same songs for her on the guitar, she couldn't sing along. She couldn't follow the beat. She never worked on it. Basically, she sucked.

 

The more work you put in, the higher level you achieve.

 

I can understand a situation like that. I mean, had your ex-girlfriend ever been in a band? In several bands of different genres? Had she recorded any CD's/demos? Had she done any jingles or voiceover work? Had she written songs since she was, oh, four years old? Had she played in front of crowds of a thousand or more people?

 

I have. And, lol, for the record, I SUCK at karaoke, and I'm too loud to sing in the car with the radio. But, yeah, I do get what you mean.

 

And, all I'm saying is, I've worked more than a bit. I'm not asking for a free ride, here. I'm just wanting to experience that feel of the sweet spot of the jam with someone I love. That's all.

 

One good thing. All these great replies have given me lots to think about, and maybe helped me to understand where he might be coming from (not the least of which might be from a point of view based on preconceived notions). I am continuing to do what I've done all along, which is to keep writing, keep jamming, keep playing, and keep striving.

 

I just wish...and maybe it will happen someday, wouldn't that be cool?

[Honour]

He seems pretty damn selfish. You've been going out for a year and a half and he still won't jam with you? I'm a musician too and I feel the same way that you do. If I met a girl that was a musician I would want to jam with her. Is this guy a rock star or something? It just tells me he doesn't really care about you. I mean do you do anything else? Go out for dinner or movies or whatever? Or just bum around the home. Playing your instrument by yourself. Do you guys actually do anything?

 

We actually do go out quite a bit when he's not playing, and he does come out to my gigs. I don't know if he's selfish or what, but like I said, all these great replies and insights are really helping me to try and see where he might be coming from.

 

Because, part of the point is, he's not like that in anything else in our relationship. It's just in this one area where he seems to freeze up at the thought.

 

It's like, it's not his fault I've had to put music to one side sometimes (due to family issues or whatever). But, it's also not my fault that someone in his past either sucked or put him in a sucky situation.

 

I'm me. If I suck, tell me so and I'll work on it. If I don't suck, then what's the problem? It's not a competition. In fact, it's just the opposite. I'm wanting to feel how well we could blend. And, damn it, to me, it would just be fun!

[Honour]

Also OP.

 

Every good rock cover band needs someone to do backup vocal harmonies. If you can learn to do that, that may be your way in.

 

I tried approaching it this way...still hasn't happened. But it might!