psm04 Posted May 23, 2013 Posted May 23, 2013 Ok. This might start a heated discussion, but that's not my intention. I've been thinking about this for a while, and I'm just curious. Since I've joined LS, I have been reading on here about how MM are lying scumbags, etc, etc. At that point, I started not being able to trust my xOMM at all, and pretty much doubting everything he said to me. Which, when I think about it, isn't fair to him because I myself am married (mostly happy at the time of the A) but was hopelessly in love with my xOMM as well, and meant everything I said to him about my feelings. Yes, I know it's wrong, and I was a cake eater and all that, but I'm just being truthful. My question is, does anyone think that maybe, just maybe, whatever your MM/MW was feeling about you was real and the truth, but that they really just couldn't up and leave their family? He/she might be just as much, if not more heartbroken than you are when things end? I'm not sure if I'm making sense right now. Maybe it is a coincidence that everything I keep reading is mostly attacks on MM (I have been guilty of attacking them as well). Obviously, I'm excluding those MM/MW who actually lied to their AP about leaving their spouses or not loving their spouses, and serial cheaters. Yes, they truly are selfish scum. I really hope that no one takes offense to my thread! This is just a topic that i'm interested in hearing viewpoints about. Also, I feel like I have to believe that my xOMM was genuine about his feelings for me, because I'm literally going insane trying to dissect everything he said and did in the course of 2 years, and finding reasons for them to not be true. I can't stand it anymore, and I feel like it is getting in the way of me truly getting over the affair and the feelings. Sorry for the long post.
weedsandposies Posted May 23, 2013 Posted May 23, 2013 why are you looking for reasons for them to not be true? can't it just be a relationship you had that due to external circumstances couldn't work out? I love my OM... present tense. And never doubted how he felt about me. 3
ComingInHot Posted May 23, 2013 Posted May 23, 2013 psm, don't apologize for asking anything here, Especially when stated w/such sincerity! Honestly the MM is the Only one who can answer to what he felt/feels towards his OW & Wife. I believe (in the words of Pierre), his feeling for you may very well have been sincere, w/in the A bubble. Maybe even outside of it too. He IS a cheater and a liar though, at least during the A. He may have given you what You needed and was sincere just as he may have given His Wife what She needed while being sincere as well. 2
Pardon_me Posted May 23, 2013 Posted May 23, 2013 No 'maybe' here. I don't think xMM is a scumbag. And I don't think I'm a bad person either. We're two nice, good people, who made a mistake. We developed feelings, we shut them down. We both agreed than ending things sucked, but it was the right thing to do. We met too late. C'est la vie. I feel this way too. 2
spice4life Posted May 23, 2013 Posted May 23, 2013 I never doubted that it was painful for him. I'm sure it was. That's the price both sides pay in an affair. It's the nature of the relationship. 2
Praying4Peace Posted May 23, 2013 Posted May 23, 2013 I agree with OP. I was a MOW during my whole affair and didn't tell any major lies about anything he'd care about. My M was happy yet I fell head over heels. I'm a married person in an affair and I lied constantly to my H but not my AP. I know him inside out like the back of my hand bc he allowed me to see everything even if it stung. I knew all the phases of his mindset. He is a man. A man has a duty to his family and small children. Not feeling like a selfish POS when the **** hits the fan is part of his happiness. Sometimes getting rid of a bad emotion (guilt, shame) brings more peace than gaining a positive one (romantic love). I believe with me gone he has a chance to get back the intimacy with his W. He was neglected by her, they had severe communication issues. Yes I heard it from her mouth! No difference in stories. He lapsed a few times in NC the first few months. Not acknowledging that has been the hardest thing I've ever done. Ever. If I could tell him anything I'd tell him not contacting him at the lowest point of my life is the ultimate gift of love from me. I know for a fact he still loves me and nothing anyone else says here will convince me otherwise. It will fade like all things that aren't constantly picked at or maintained. And again- I was married for over a decade, I have a boatload of kids, I was happy enough so I do know the dynamics of a marriage and an A. Just accept it's over but don't rewrite the A history. 7
LadyLee Posted May 23, 2013 Posted May 23, 2013 PSM, I can really really relate to your post. I appreciate all of the knowledge that I've gained lurking, but I do believe that it's made me question some things that really were not an issue. At the same time, it has provided clarity on some other things. It has shown some similarities that I wouldn't have otherwise noticed. It's so confusing sometimes. Lee 1
LilGirlandOW Posted May 23, 2013 Posted May 23, 2013 In life we all lie small lies big lies, nobody goes through life without lieing period. I dont lie to my MM although i have lied in life, my MM isnt a serial cheater or a "tail chaser", we worked together long before the A started and he could have started an A with many beautiful women i know of but didnt, we had a connection that made us curious enough to pursue it, and we did. Sure, He lies to his wife, whos been caught lieing to him, not about seeing another man but about other things, who is anybody to judge what lies are valid and acceptable and which are terrible. 2
zevahc Posted May 23, 2013 Posted May 23, 2013 psm...i wholeheartedly think the feelings are real. But real, and right are two different things. Of course right...in my opinion depends on a person's moral code. I think A's are wrong...but I do think my MOW loves me...and I believe she thinks I'm her soulmate...and vice versa...doesn't change the facts...and it's not my place or part of my real moral code to be a marriage wrecker...so i've chosen to walk away....hope she can work on and improve her marriage...as hard and painful as it is...if i say i truly love her...i will do what needs to be done...right? 1
Author psm04 Posted May 23, 2013 Author Posted May 23, 2013 why are you looking for reasons for them to not be true? can't it just be a relationship you had that due to external circumstances couldn't work out? I guess I started putting my affair in the same category of affairs where people have been lied to, made false promises to, etc. I used to think that it was a relationship that couldn't work out due to external circumstances. I'm now trying to get back to that same mindset.
Heather1 Posted May 23, 2013 Posted May 23, 2013 Both people m'd makes things a little different, you can totally understand the family obligations & wanting to keep the family together. We split many times so one or the other could work on the m, or for our kids, etc. every R is different & as is every A R. Don't question what you know you had, that's only yours. It's like asking someone who sucks @ R about yours, they're not going to have anything great to tell you. Still, there are some common things & men & women think VERY different about it. First of all, I was about as vulnerable as anyone could be @ the time. Now that years have gone by & I've been w/ male friends since during tough times, a real friend would have NEVER made a move. In my case, I do think he saw it as an opportunity. I'm no victim though, I fully participated. I had kind of a crappy ending, which is good & bad. The better the ending, the lamer the longing is. I think we had the longest breakup known to mankind? You might not be as done as you think if there's still good feelings. 1
Author psm04 Posted May 23, 2013 Author Posted May 23, 2013 I really do mean this in a nice way.... If you ae hurting this much, and you are finding it hard to cope, have you considered getting some individual counselling or therapy for yourself to help you sort all of this out? While posting online can be great, sometimes it can be so much more helpful to talk to someone in real life who knows you as more than just words on a screen... I've been in counseling, with and without my H. It has helped a lot. This forum helps a ton too, and I like to put my thoughts out here. I am definitely in a better place now than I was a month ago, so I guess I'm doing something right!
LilGirlandOW Posted May 23, 2013 Posted May 23, 2013 I think society puts too much weight and emotional entitlement into that single piece of paper, the marriage certificate. We fall in love, we get married, till death do us part, right? You buy a seed, plant it in a pot, dont give it any TLC... it doesnt grow, it doesnt flourish, it...dies like the loved filled vows you give on your wedding day. Ok so a marriage goes bad we dont die although sometimes quickly walking away is harder than packing your bags and moving, its complicated and sometimes the ducks dont fall in line as fast as you snap your fingers. So why, in the meantime can people not be happy? I read a study/survery that happiness is the #1 wish we make for others in life, if being in an A makes that wish come true for two people in whatever it is their seeking than, who is anybody to judge? Just cause her name is on that piece of paper and not mine, does that entitle her to have the right to bring him down so much? I dont agree with it.... If I were married, which I was for 10years and absolutly devoted to my xH, I supported him in every way possible, treated him like a king, but he took advantage of that, I left, we didnt have much to figure out so it was a really easy split, anyways if i were married and wanted to keep my husband from finding serenity and peace and love with another woman I would be that other woman, like i was to xH in the past, all 10yrs, I wore sexy outfits to suprise him, rubbed his feet and listened to his long asss sob stories, all of it, everything it took cause i loved him and wanted to have the perfect marraige. It didnt work out. He never had the need for another woman, and begged for months for me to come back because he realized how great i was to him, but I didnt want to immerse myself into that type of relationship again. 4
Author psm04 Posted May 23, 2013 Author Posted May 23, 2013 PSM, you probably aren't going to like my opinion. Married people in affairs lie, they have to in order to carry on an affair. The lies they tell might be big lies, little lies, or lies of omission. You are married yourself so you know this, right? The people the married person lies to is always the spouse, absolutely, no getting around that one. Someone who lies, big ones, small ones, by definition, they are a liar. It's simple logic. Who gets told the lies, no way to really know, is there? The way I look at it, if I'm dealing with someone who lies to someone else and I know it, everything they say to me is automatically under suspicion also. It's just silly to think that you can trust a "known liar". Having been an ow, I have found that it makes more sense for me and my life to keep away from people who have illustrated traits of being a liar. I do not want to spend my brain cells wondering, worrying and second guessing someone else. I expect and want a reasonable certainty that what someone tells me is the truth, a known liar is not going to give me that. I don't have time for it. It's just too damn hard! I hope that ramble made sense, and I got the point across. Hi, you made total sense, and I understand what you are saying. However, I think that I was lying to myself more than anyone else. I justified the affair, and I also thought that I could handle things, but clearly I couldn't. Also, lying in an affair doesn't make you a pathological liar, imo. I do see what you are saying though :-)
bellasue Posted May 23, 2013 Posted May 23, 2013 xMM and I actually talked about what would happen if there was a dday. On his end, he said if there was he would have to comply with NC but it would be hell. He did precipitate dday by telling his wife about us, so I'm not sure he still feels the same way. All I know is the affair is the biggest mistake I have ever made. The pain on my end is unbearable. 2
Author psm04 Posted May 23, 2013 Author Posted May 23, 2013 hope she can work on and improve her marriage...as hard and painful as it is...if i say i truly love her...i will do what needs to be done...right? That is pretty much the way I feel about xOMM. I'm doing what needs to be done, but that selfish and jealous part of me still gets in the way sometimes. Which is why I'm having a hard time even having a simple work related conversation with him.
Author psm04 Posted May 23, 2013 Author Posted May 23, 2013 All I know is the affair is the biggest mistake I have ever made. The pain on my end is unbearable. I'm sorry that you are going through this pain. Believe me, I know. Even when I was faking being strong in front of him, I was dying inside.
Heather1 Posted May 23, 2013 Posted May 23, 2013 I agree on justifying as opposed to feeling like you're lying. I think I said all the stuff about meeting @ the wrong time, what is m anyway?, life is short & we all deserve to be happy so hey....all good!! BS I had a h & OM, still totally lonely. Happiness can't possibly lie in this hornets nest of drama? I'll never do this again that's for sure!! 1
Author psm04 Posted May 23, 2013 Author Posted May 23, 2013 I'm sure many mm/mw so feel something for their ap. but in the end, does it REALLY matter? Because whatever they felt, if they didn't leave their marriage, then it's obvious those feelings weren't deep enough to change their lives for. So why torture ones self over feelings that in the end weren't enough to manifest a real out in the open relationship? No matter what we tell ourselves in a relationship (affair I otherwise) the truth is at the end of the day: the partner stays where he REALLY wants most to be no matter what he/she says. Well, I don't think that it's a matter of the depth of the feelings. For a lot of people (myself included), change is scary. On one hand, you have years of history, family and mutual friends, kids, financial stability, bills, etc.. On the other hand, you have this passion and love and connection. Regardless of how deep the love for that person is, I think ultimately most people will choose the practical route, instead of jumping into something new. It is extremely sad, but it is true. I would love to move to a warmer place right by the beach with great public transportation. But, I choose to stay where I am because I have family and friends nearby, the cost of living is cheaper, etc. It doesn't mean that I like my city more than my dream place, but it's just a matter of practicality. 3
findingnemo Posted May 23, 2013 Posted May 23, 2013 Well, I don't think that it's a matter of the depth of the feelings. For a lot of people (myself included), change is scary. On one hand, you have years of history, family and mutual friends, kids, financial stability, bills, etc.. On the other hand, you have this passion and love and connection. Regardless of how deep the love for that person is, I think ultimately most people will choose the practical route, instead of jumping into something new. It is extremely sad, but it is true. I would love to move to a warmer place right by the beach with great public transportation. But, I choose to stay where I am because I have family and friends nearby, the cost of living is cheaper, etc. It doesn't mean that I like my city more than my dream place, but it's just a matter of practicality. I don't think saying that all MMs lie means that they lie about their feelings for the OW. In my case, xMM loved and still loves me. But in order to have the A and keep it going, he told me some lies. I bet he also told his BW lies. I can't imagine him being truthful about who he spent a holiday on an island with and who his business partner really was in terms of history. He lied to both of us by not giving us information that would immediately make us question our Rs. xMM never criticized his BW to me in all the years I've known him. That's a good thing. But he lied by omission all the time. I would find out about a baby after the fact. When I thought about the timing, I realized that he spent more time with me when she was pregnant than when she wasn't. The lies hurt regardless of the fact that I never doubted his love for me...and her.
Got it Posted May 23, 2013 Posted May 23, 2013 Ok. This might start a heated discussion, but that's not my intention. I've been thinking about this for a while, and I'm just curious. Since I've joined LS, I have been reading on here about how MM are lying scumbags, etc, etc. At that point, I started not being able to trust my xOMM at all, and pretty much doubting everything he said to me. Which, when I think about it, isn't fair to him because I myself am married (mostly happy at the time of the A) but was hopelessly in love with my xOMM as well, and meant everything I said to him about my feelings. Yes, I know it's wrong, and I was a cake eater and all that, but I'm just being truthful. My question is, does anyone think that maybe, just maybe, whatever your MM/MW was feeling about you was real and the truth, but that they really just couldn't up and leave their family? He/she might be just as much, if not more heartbroken than you are when things end? I'm not sure if I'm making sense right now. Maybe it is a coincidence that everything I keep reading is mostly attacks on MM (I have been guilty of attacking them as well). Obviously, I'm excluding those MM/MW who actually lied to their AP about leaving their spouses or not loving their spouses, and serial cheaters. Yes, they truly are selfish scum. I really hope that no one takes offense to my thread! This is just a topic that i'm interested in hearing viewpoints about. Also, I feel like I have to believe that my xOMM was genuine about his feelings for me, because I'm literally going insane trying to dissect everything he said and did in the course of 2 years, and finding reasons for them to not be true. I can't stand it anymore, and I feel like it is getting in the way of me truly getting over the affair and the feelings. Sorry for the long post. Yes of course it can be true. I have found that it is very easy for outsiders to jump on the negative on everything and it is easy to look towards the negative in others in all aspects of our lives. It is hard to have faith and trust when you are so vulnerable to being hurt! I know that there were times that my husband wanted me off the internet because I would read something online and blow up on him! :laugh:I tried to keep things parable by putting myself in his shoes and really just focus on the actions that I am seeing, not "worst case scenarios". Stop trying to dissect things, you are having imaginary conversations in your head without being able to substantiate his end. This is your ending, this is your healing. If you need to believe he cared, if you have actions pointing to the fact he cared then assume he cared. I am sure he cared. Caring doesn't always mean that the MP will divorce but it doesn't mean that they don't care, they don't love. Love is and can be more complex than that and I get frustrated with the "simple" logic that is spouted that "if he cared he would . . . ". Okay maybe but maybe not. Obviously the same for you, you cared deeply but you were/are still married. Caring for him did not effect change for you. But it doesn't negate that you cared. Attacking is easy, it makes some people feel better, it can help with a victim mentality, and it helps smooth over bruised ego. Accepting that love isn't always enough, or that love doesn't conquer all, or that people can have conflicting and opposing feelings is much harder to understand and accept. He cared. You cared. The relationship had value in your life. Some people come into your life for a reason, for some it is a day, a season or a lifetime. He came into your life for a reason, what was the reason? Just because it wasn't for a lifetime doesn't mean that there wasn't value. It wasn't for nothing. ((((((psm))))))) 2
sybo24 Posted May 23, 2013 Posted May 23, 2013 My question is, does anyone think that maybe, just maybe, whatever your MM/MW was feeling about you was real and the truth, but that they really just couldn't up and leave their family? He/she might be just as much, if not more heartbroken than you are when things end? . I have to believe that this is the case with my exMM or I would go insane doubting everything he ever said to me. 2
ThatJustHappened Posted May 23, 2013 Posted May 23, 2013 The thing is..you'll never ever know. You don't live with them. Even if you know the wife, you don't know what they're like when they're alone together. They could be sleeping in each other's arms ever night. And as LadyGrey says, he is a known liar. He's good at it. So you can't ever really trust a cheating married man no matter what side of things you're on. There will always be a cloud of suspicion surrounding him.
SweetBella1 Posted May 23, 2013 Posted May 23, 2013 (edited) GotIt wrote: "Stop trying to dissect things, you are having imaginary conversations in your head without being able to substantiate his end. This is your ending, this is your healing. If you need to believe he cared, if you have actions pointing to the fact he cared then assume he cared. I am sure he cared. Caring doesn't always mean that the MP will divorce but it doesn't mean that they don't care, they don't love. Love is and can be more complex than that and I get frustrated with the "simple" logic that is spouted that "if he cared he would . . . ". Okay maybe but maybe not. Obviously the same for you, you cared deeply but you were/are still married. Caring for him did not effect change for you. But it doesn't negate that you cared. He cared. You cared. The relationship had value in your life. Some people come into your life for a reason, for some it is a day, a season or a lifetime. He came into your life for a reason, what was the reason? Just because it wasn't for a lifetime doesn't mean that there wasn't value. It wasn't for nothing." ****This is the best thing I've read. So healing & validating. I'm going to read it 5 more times! Edited May 23, 2013 by SweetBella1 1
Got it Posted May 23, 2013 Posted May 23, 2013 Who ever said WS don't care at all? That's not the issue. The real issue is: they didn't care ENOUGH to go. Why this is even up for argument speaks volumes about people's need to delude themselves. BS can accept the WS didn't care enough to keep their pants up. God forbid the AP can't understand this SAME thing when it comes to their end of the spectrum. I'm not going to help people lie to themselves... This lack of care either way goes back to the fundamental claim about affairs: you are dealing with a partner on either end which cares profoundly more for self than others. Who wants to be involved with that crap?!?! And that's why it best to NOT engage in affairs and to not take back WSs who repeatedly engage in this kind of behavior. I agree with you to revisit and analyze to the point you drive yourself is crazy is redundant. In the end if they didn't go, it's not enough. You can argue all day what 1+1 is but there IS an answer in the face of those who are willing to just accept the reality. Even if one DOES warp their mind enough to get a different sum it is NOT going to change the history of how it equaled two for human history. Even IF the AP did love you ( and I'm sure there is love on some level) what does it change? The history is STILL the history Except for this poster it seems whether or not her MM cared does matter to her. So why you bring the BS into this is beside me. And "Who wants to be involved with that crap?!?!" looks like many OP and BS.
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