Conversations -- how to be a challenge

[PogoStick]

After reading some recent threads I figure I'd throw in my experience last night. Dissect it a bit and you'll find some useful concepts in conversing with women.

 

I'm working psych on a serious 9 through text just last night. Odds are against me but I'm going for it anyways. She's one of the gym hotties who's always working out. She's into the buff alpha guys which I'm not (we haven't met, from OLD and she sent me her number). She tells me how she went on a date with a hot guy but he was a bad kisser. Boom there's my chance, I have to stick out. I disqualify myself and say "I'm not your type, I'm not muscular and I have a little belly, but I have the sweetest lips." Now i'm different and interesting from the guys she's turning down everyday at her gym.

 

She knows she's hot but I'm not chasing her, she is thinking "WTF". Now she has to be interested in me if she wants that kiss (sweetest lips) because I've already disqualified the opportunity "I'm not your type". Then I ask her "here you have an average hotness guy, but a great lover, what are you going to do with that?" Her, "I can deal with that" (not the best answer but not rejection) "Ok let's meet next week".

 

I actually have to be careful about negging her too much now. Today I sent her "You seem really unique, I hope I will like you." It's not exactly a compliment...she asks "In a good or bad way?" That turned the convo towards, what are her bad qualities? I could feel her getting frustrated so I softened it. I ended saying "I'm just teasing you. I see some things I like about you so I'm curious to find out more."

 

***

I'm not being an Ahole. I'm being fun and interesting. There's a difference. We're playing a game which she's aware of at least subconsciously. That's WHY she's interested. It's a mental dance that she finds exciting. I'm not an alpha guy, but I've already put up more of a fight than lots of the guys who hit on her.

 

And I have what, maybe a 20% chance of pulling this off in the end. So what? I can do this dance with 10 more hot girls and statistics will win eventually.

Edited May 14, 2013 by PogoStick

[BluEyeL]

Yes, actually these games are interesting. I enjoyed playing stuff like that with some guys and I was completely aware of the game, I know all the techniques, I studied PUA myself . It's fun indeed and it's stimulating. I personally like it, so I acknowledge that it works Careful not going too far with the negging, you have to put some significant "push" in the "push-pull" game, otherwise is not fun

[BluEyeL]

Downside is, I never took those guys seriously. I put them in the "fun, but want sex only" category. And didn't have sex with them either

[Treasa]

Good luck?

 

We have different definitions of "fun" and "interesting" but that's cool. Also, unless you're made of brownie material...the "sweetest lips" thing would be a turn-off for me.

 

However, if it gets you the results you want, go for it.

[PogoStick]

We have different definitions of "fun" and "interesting" but that's cool. Also, unless you're made of brownie material...the "sweetest lips" thing would be a turn-off for me.

 

Obviously what appeals to one woman isn't universal. That's part of me reading clues from our conversation.

 

I know I'm talking a bit PUA. I've used it to help understand psychology but I haven't studied/practiced a single PUA technique, but the similarities are there.

 

The main point for guys to take from it is be yourself, don't be a pushover, don't just agree with her. A very attractive girl I went on a few dates with recently said she picked me because I teased her about one of her favorite movies. I wasn't mean, I just gave my honest opinion about that movie. She liked that I was confident enough to disagree with her. She brought that up like 3 different times so it was clearly significant.

 

I can just imagine the guys who struggle here are the "smile and nod" type. Little puppies.

[todreaminblue]

Obviously what appeals to one woman isn't universal. That's part of me reading clues from our conversation.

 

I know I'm talking a bit PUA. I've used it to help understand psychology but I haven't studied/practiced a single PUA technique, but the similarities are there.

 

The main point for guys to take from it is be yourself, don't be a pushover, don't just agree with her. A very attractive girl I went on a few dates with recently said she picked me because I teased her about one of her favorite movies. I wasn't mean, I just gave my honest opinion about that movie. She liked that I was confident enough to disagree with her. She brought that up like 3 different times so it was clearly significant.

 

I can just imagine the guys who struggle here are the "smile and nod" type. Little puppies.

 

I like a guy who will stand up for what he believes in, who is a bit cheeky, fun, but if a guy is going to pick apart my conversations and give teasing at every turn......it stops being fun....... as does a guy who agrees with everything i say for the sake of avoiding a risk... if a guy hides who he truly is to get a date and is playing...eventually the real person will surface, the amount of interest will be obvious and it happens unconsciously......i am patient i can wait that out.........i think there comes a point when you have to be who you are and have that accepted that's when its real...i would rather start of the point of realness...deb.

[Treasa]

I like it when a guy can hold his own, but not when a guy is snarky or argumentative just because he's trying to engage in psychological bull**** with me. I don't play those games. If you get "lucky" it's going to be with a woman who thinks she deserves less and is willing to put up with crap.

[ThaWholigan]

It does work to a degree, yes. I would advise some of the guys to experiment with how they communicate. It's not a complete substitute for looks, but you can at least have a stimulating conversation with a girl otherwise.

 

Me personally, I have my own method of communicating that I have tweaked over the years but still sounds like me. I've gotten better at skilfully handling conversations with women, and the key point is that I don't really give that much of a f*ck if it doesn't go anywhere. It's just a conversation really.

 

I can also be argumentative, but generally my interactions are easy-going, occasionally generate friction without being explosive. Only if they know me .......

[Estate]

After reading some recent threads I figure I'd throw in my experience last night. Dissect it a bit and you'll find some useful concepts in conversing with women.

 

I'm working psych on a serious 9 through text just last night. Odds are against me but I'm going for it anyways. She's one of the gym hotties who's always working out. She's into the buff alpha guys which I'm not (we haven't met, from OLD and she sent me her number). She tells me how she went on a date with a hot guy but he was a bad kisser. Boom there's my chance, I have to stick out. I disqualify myself and say "I'm not your type, I'm not muscular and I have a little belly, but I have the sweetest lips." Now i'm different and interesting from the guys she's turning down everyday at her gym.

 

She knows she's hot but I'm not chasing her, she is thinking "WTF". Now she has to be interested in me if she wants that kiss (sweetest lips) because I've already disqualified the opportunity "I'm not your type". Then I ask her "here you have an average hotness guy, but a great lover, what are you going to do with that?" Her, "I can deal with that" (not the best answer but not rejection) "Ok let's meet next week".

 

I actually have to be careful about negging her too much now. Today I sent her "You seem really unique, I hope I will like you." It's not exactly a compliment...she asks "In a good or bad way?" That turned the convo towards, what are her bad qualities? I could feel her getting frustrated so I softened it. I ended saying "I'm just teasing you. I see some things I like about you so I'm curious to find out more."

 

***

I'm not being an Ahole. I'm being fun and interesting. There's a difference. We're playing a game which she's aware of at least subconsciously. That's WHY she's interested. It's a mental dance that she finds exciting. I'm not an alpha guy, but I've already put up more of a fight than lots of the guys who hit on her.

 

And I have what, maybe a 20% chance of pulling this off in the end. So what? I can do this dance with 10 more hot girls and statistics will win eventually.

 

Ok... let's get into it then...

 

Firstly, if you don't believe you will succeed at anything, you're doomed to fail. You've got to BELIEVE this girl likes you if you have her number.

 

I don't know what "working psych" means but I'm guess this means playing games?

 

You're dis-qualifier was not very good. A dis-qualifier does not help by putting yourself down and then chasing her...

You told her negative physical attributes about yourself, shows a lack of confidence. You need to put forward a POSITIVE attribute and disqualify her from THAT... because what you WANT is for her to see that are telling her you are different in a POSITIVE light and when you say you're not her type then she'll be drawn to the positive quality you are saying she can't have.

Also... don't close it by saying you are a good kisser... you put yourself back on the chase and she has no investment in you so right away you're on the back foot and you are chasing her, not the other way around.

 

(Also... personally I think the idea of disqualifying serves little purpose unless a girl already REALLY likes you. It's an old dated tactic but not a good one.)

 

She's not thinking "WTF" and not chasing you. She's now thinking "Well, I date muscly confident guys... this guy says he doesn't look after himself, seems proud of it. Now I'm REALLY not interested because he didn't position himself as an ATTRACTIVE alternative to my usual type and he's putting himself down saying he knows I wouldn't even like him.

 

I like the IDEA of your average guy comment... you set a good frame here... i.e. you are different psychically from her usual but you may turn out to be something even better... but you're words?? Oy oy oy....

You can't TELL someone you are a good lover, you have to exude a sexual attitude, women can tell. And again, don't say you are average... you have to paint yourself as an ATTRACTIVE alternative in her mind, not an AVERAGE one.

 

Asking to "meet next week" is vague... set a date.

 

Next... drop the negging. It's un-necessary and very few guys know how to use them without flat out insulting a woman.

I never use them. Dont make her think of her negative qualities. She will associate talking to you with negative emotions, you don't want to be that guy.

Also... you're chasing all over the place... stop texting that you like her then trying to disqualify it again... that means you are chasing but acting like a dick.

 

I know where you're going with this and I like that you're trying and she's still giving you a chance but it sounds like you've been studying Mystery Method hard. It's very dated these days and it sounds like you're mis-interpreting with negs and dis-qualifiers are.

PM me if you would like to look up some other methods, I don't want to promote anything here. There's some good advice out there without going to total PUA Mystery Method route which works so much better.

[PogoStick]

Thanks I appreciate that feedback. There are valid points in there but also you're only seeing 10% of the conversation and the subtleties make a difference.

 

I understand the danger in "putting myself down" but it's not as simple as that. Actually she knows I go to the gym and even suggested we workout together. Compared to the average guy I'm fine, compared to the guy she typically wants "I'm not muscular". I put that forward so she accepts it as a non-issue rather than be disappointed after we meet, if anything she'll be pleasantly surprised.

 

And so what if I fk it up. I at least got in the door and have generated interest. I learn and get more confident with each girl and I know one of them will take a bite. I'm confident I'll get a quality girl, but I can't control what each individual will find attractive.

[brandnew2]

After reading this story, I'll be surprised if you actually meet her. And if you do, I don't like your chances of anything more than being friend zoned.

 

I agree with most others on here that you went a little overboard. The type of women who put a huge emphasis on going to the gym are not going to be swayed by you telling them you "have a little belly" bro.

[StanMusial]

I couldn't help but think of the scene in "The 40 Year Old Version" where he keeps repeating the lady's statements in the form of a question until she finally says, "What the f*ck is the matter with you? Are you retarded?"

 

[Estate]

Thanks I appreciate that feedback. There are valid points in there but also you're only seeing 10% of the conversation and the subtleties make a difference.

 

I understand the danger in "putting myself down" but it's not as simple as that. Actually she knows I go to the gym and even suggested we workout together. Compared to the average guy I'm fine, compared to the guy she typically wants "I'm not muscular". I put that forward so she accepts it as a non-issue rather than be disappointed after we meet, if anything she'll be pleasantly surprised.

 

And so what if I fk it up. I at least got in the door and have generated interest. I learn and get more confident with each girl and I know one of them will take a bite. I'm confident I'll get a quality girl, but I can't control what each individual will find attractive.

 

I agree Pogo but a lot of the things you learn in PUA get very mis-interpreted.

 

For example... "being a challenge".

Someone is not a challenge merely by saying "I'm a challenge", people don't believe it, but when they SEE and FEEL you being a challenge through your actions it really hits people.

 

It's like if I guy is confident, he never says it, he exudes it and people feel it but the guy who tells people "Look at me, I'm a confident guy", he doesn't back it up and it doesn't it.

 

You don't need to "tell" her these thing...

Like never say to a girl "I'm such a busy guy, etc, etc..."

Just BE hard to set a time with because you have other things to do and other event,s parties, people to see but don't make yourself TOO unavailable. Always have SOME time which works.

 

The idea of negging and asking for her to think of her negatives. Don't do it, drop this from your game. You want women to feel positive emotions around you and she'll be hooked. Think... if someone ever said negative things about you or make you think of negative things about yourself either in their words or actions... is this a person who's company you enjoy? No! You associate negative emotions with them.

 

You don't need to use Negs to bring a girl down. You should position yourself as being such a cool quality guy that you don't need to bring her "down to your level", you are naturally up there at her level, so drop the negs... most mainstream PUAs do not use these nowadays, game has changed.

 

Same for disqualifying... only use it in a playful way... like...

"No way, you like One Direction? You're such a geek, we can't be friends anymore!" because it's playful and she'll laugh and accuse you of liking something geeky and it's all just a joke.

Don't disqualify on actual serious or physical things, it doesn't work that way and takes you two steps back. If someone is self deprecating, again, it doesn't make you think of them as confident.

 

Think... "if someone said this to ME, what would my perception of them be?"

 

So I said, drop the negs and drop the disqualifiers.

But use more QUALIFIERS... Like if she says she likes X... don't say "Oh cool" and don't disqualify her on it and say it's lame.

QUESTION her on it... why does she like it, why does she do it, what makes it special to her, how does she feel about it, is there something else she wishes she had more than X: what is it and why? And why did she choose X over Y?

THAT sets you appart, because you are listening to her... but you're also not like every other guy that just says "Oh cool" and rewards her for saying something... you might be impressed but you only let her know that once she has qualified to you WHY and HOW she likes it, THEN you show you are interested, you listen, but you are not easily impressed, you need to know more. This has worked wonders for me. Do it all in a positive manner but challenge her on everything before then displaying your approval and delight in it, plus it helps you get to know her much better and she'll come away feeling really good...

I'm an IT guy, people think it's nerdy but when someone listens to what I ACTUALLY do and says it sounds cool then I feel good about it but if someone just asks what I do and then says "Oh right..." or there is silence or a neg after I explain my job, I feel bad about it.

 

You're on the right track... but you're learning here, negs and disqaulifiers are un-neccessary and I don't think you are evoking the emotions that you THINK you are here.

[Treasa]

Can't you just be the best version of yourself? You know, the confident, kind, happy you?

[ThaWholigan]

Can't you just be the best version of yourself? You know, the confident, kind, happy you?

Sometimes you have to experiment before you even know who or what that version of you is .

[HoneyBadgerDontCare]

After reading some recent threads I figure I'd throw in my experience last night. Dissect it a bit and you'll find some useful concepts in conversing with women.

 

I'm working psych on a serious 9 through text just last night. Odds are against me but I'm going for it anyways. She's one of the gym hotties who's always working out. She's into the buff alpha guys which I'm not (we haven't met, from OLD and she sent me her number). She tells me how she went on a date with a hot guy but he was a bad kisser. Boom there's my chance, I have to stick out. I disqualify myself and say "I'm not your type, I'm not muscular and I have a little belly, but I have the sweetest lips." Now i'm different and interesting from the guys she's turning down everyday at her gym.

 

She knows she's hot but I'm not chasing her, she is thinking "WTF". Now she has to be interested in me if she wants that kiss (sweetest lips) because I've already disqualified the opportunity "I'm not your type". Then I ask her "here you have an average hotness guy, but a great lover, what are you going to do with that?" Her, "I can deal with that" (not the best answer but not rejection) "Ok let's meet next week".

 

I actually have to be careful about negging her too much now. Today I sent her "You seem really unique, I hope I will like you." It's not exactly a compliment...she asks "In a good or bad way?" That turned the convo towards, what are her bad qualities? I could feel her getting frustrated so I softened it. I ended saying "I'm just teasing you. I see some things I like about you so I'm curious to find out more."

 

***

I'm not being an Ahole. I'm being fun and interesting. There's a difference. We're playing a game which she's aware of at least subconsciously. That's WHY she's interested. It's a mental dance that she finds exciting. I'm not an alpha guy, but I've already put up more of a fight than lots of the guys who hit on her.

 

And I have what, maybe a 20% chance of pulling this off in the end. So what? I can do this dance with 10 more hot girls and statistics will win eventually.

 

Ha! Yeah this brings me back.

 

You sound like me a few years ago. Eventually, doing this kind of stuff gets boring, but it's a fun ride while it lasts!

 

Hope you bag your hottie!

[Treasa]

Sometimes you have to experiment before you even know who or what that version of you is .

 

I knew eventually we'd disagree on something.

[ThaWholigan]

I knew eventually we'd disagree on something.

 

It's true though - it reminds me of that movie with Van Damme in jail (movie was called "In Hell") and he turns into the biggest fighter in the jail and loses himself and the black dude who scared him before wasn't so scary - and he squared up to him like "what are you looking at?". The scary black dude just looks at him pitifully and says "Do you even know who you are?..................Probably not."

 

It's like that with some people. They don't know themselves - sometimes telling them to be the best version of themselves is like talking to them in a foreign language. They aren't familiar with this best version.

 

I was fortunate that it didn't take me long to discover who I was - it just took a lot longer to become more comfortable expressing it freely, confidently and happily.

[PogoStick]

I'm quite genuine and probably why I have success even if it breaks some of the "rules". I don't even have rules to break. I described it as a Dance, we're in it together. Each one is unique and unpredictable which is why I find it to be so much fun.

 

And thanks to the ones wanting to see me fail. Who cares if I get friendzoned? She has attractive friends and will make a great wingwoman. Why are we meeting sometime "next week"? Because I have a social event and 2 dates coming this week already. I'm not too concerned about the outcome of this one girl.

 

Oh well, LS teaches me once again to not try and be helpful. Although thanks Estate for useful feedback.