whatdreamsmaycome Posted May 6, 2013 Posted May 6, 2013 I wonder if the divorce made him bitter and defensive (his ex wife cheated on him, and then moved in with man and took their kids with her, so it would be understandable)... or if it's a personality thing he's dealt with his whole life. Though I hardly think he could've been married for 20 years with his extremely defensive attitude and consequent projected blame. There was an incident where he said something inappropriate and I, extremely meekly, conveyed that I didn't think it was appropriate. He then got very defensive very quickly, to the point where I was apologizing for what I had brought up??? I felt steamrolled, and then even after I apologized he said he didn't want to talk to me anymore. I can't imagine that you can stay married to someone like this for 20 years, how would anything get resolved? Which is why perhaps, I think, his divorce caused this type of behavior. After a couple days, he contacted me again, and we sort of resumed where we had left off. Then, this weekend, we came across a different issue... and I tried to figure out ways that I could bring this problem up with him, but the scary scenario above kept running through my head... and I realized... this defensive is a dealbreaker... if I have to tiptoe around you and don't feel like I can bring up an issue with you in a "safe" way where I won't feel massacred and belittled for it, then I can't do it. I don't care how wonderful you are (or think you are). I just can't. So I ended it. His text to me the next day was "You're quite unique, aren't you?" <<< Any clue on what this mean? Because of his demeanor, I kind of took it as a backhanded snarky comment because I ended it through text (definitely did not want to face that backlash on the phone where I would be pulled apart, and probably be apologizing for wanting to end it, and then staying with him). I guess I'm on here partially to vent, partially to grieve, and of course to hear others experiences. I'm actually kind of sad because we did spend many hours talking to each other, but overall there were so many other things that outweighed it....
Ninjainpajamas Posted May 6, 2013 Posted May 6, 2013 You know what...if you truly don't get back with this guy then you are leaps and bounds ahead of many others, who in your situation would try and stick around fixing this man and letting his excuses be a reason for you to let him continue this abusive and condescending behavior, because this guy is showing clear signs of manipulation. So if you truly walk away from this and don't get pulled in, you won't realize how much drama you saved yourself from this guy, you saved yourself from a lot of problems and issues in your life that would have made you very unhappy, so you should be very very happy and proud of yourself for making that decision, it is not easy and it can be very confusing and leave you extremely conflicted with whether you made the right choice. Now to explain to you a little about this guy... This is actually a very common story by men...they got cheated on, therefore become bitter and defensive, insecure and possibly abusive, therefore they are a victim and have the right to act like a monkey in their current relationship. Not only do these guys not move on from their past and their ex emotionally, they bottle in that emotion and rage, and guess who they take out the result of that abuse on? that's right you...someone who has nothing to do with it. Also realize that men never tell the whole story, I can promise you that. Any story a man gives you about his past will be watered down and constructed in a way to make himself look like the good guy/victim, that's the most common practice although there are others that I won't mention without necessity. Realize that it takes two people to have a marriage, two people to stay together. His wife never held a gun to his head to stay and I'm sure they had a lot of problems in their marriage, women do not typically cheat for the same reasons men do, it comes from an emotional place, and some women use men for a period of time until the kids are old enough. This guy will unleash hell on you if you continued on this path, he would become more and more increasingly abusive and angry. Sure you'd have a conversation here and there, he'd apologize, everything would be fine for X amount of time and then he'd slowly revert back into the same behavior because people don't change, not for relationships especially when they can't change for themselves. He's got a lot of self-work to do, and a lot of emotional demons to face, but this is not a healthy place for you or a relationship you should be apart of, you will simply bear the weight and in the end he wouldn't appreciate you for your support you'd just have been a victim and a pawn to what he needed. You don't seem used to this behavior, but don't let your curiosity or emotions get you back involved with this man...I am almost absolutely certain he will apologize (because he has to) and manipulate you back into a situation with him if you let him, and you unwittingly not knowing how this works will go in thinking "optimistically" that things might change or improve over time. I'm glad this guy however has shown you enough for you to realize that this isn't going to be worth it, I just hope for your sake that it sticks because you might be a nurturer and he might act like he's in need of repairs, but that makes you the perfect victim...it's sad that women can care so much to even give it a try, they have no idea how much bigger it actually is than they are, and that what these kind of men need is to go to therapy and work out these issues before dating women again....period. You think 20 years of marriage that ends in cheating just goes away and a man can just transition into a new relationship? I feel sorry for the person who does, even if they got their own issues and problems...nobody's perfect, but that doesn't mean you've got to be stupid and add fuel to the fire. 2
TaraMaiden Posted May 6, 2013 Posted May 6, 2013 Good Post Ninja.... My take on what you did, whatdreamsmaycome, Had I been in your shoes, I would have broached the second subject of possible conflict - and then if he became defensive, tell him to his face that - if I have to tiptoe around you and don't feel like I can bring up an issue with you in a "safe" way where I won't feel massacred and belittled for it, then I can't do it. I don't care how wonderful you are (or think you are). I just can't.. maybe telling it to his face might have made him think more carefully about his responses - or it might have simply created more conflict. But in that case - indeed, either case - I think you made the right decision.
Author whatdreamsmaycome Posted May 6, 2013 Author Posted May 6, 2013 NinjainPajamas - Wow. Thank you so much for that insightful post. I actually do feel like he has manipulative tendencies, and what made me think about it was that he's actually said, "I'm not trying to be manipulative when I say...." So he's aware that he has the tendency/ability to manipulate people? That definitely sent up a flag in my head, but it was during one of our very first dates, so I just pushed it aside. I also think he played some mind games with me. Have you heard of the term gaslighting? Well, I looked it up and I think he's done this with me. Anyway, I will take your advice and stay away... far away as possible (since we work in the same building). As it stands, he said he wanted to talk, but then texted that snarky "unique" comment, to which I just responded "you too". And he hasn't contacted me since... which is fine. I need a little break from the nonsense. Thank you! 1
Author whatdreamsmaycome Posted May 6, 2013 Author Posted May 6, 2013 TaraMaiden, thank you for your advice. Normally, I would have tried that, But he has this way about him when he is defensive to say things that'll make you defensive as well. He feels he is being unrightfully blamed for something and will blame back. Also, it sounded like he didn't hear anything I said (including the dozen or so apologies for bringing it up) after I stated that what he said MAY have SORTA BEEN kinda slightly inappropriate. Nothing I said could have taken out of his defensive mode. I think if I was dealing with a normal person, the strategy would be very useful 1
TaraMaiden Posted May 6, 2013 Posted May 6, 2013 Yup - I appreciate what you're saying. I hate to jump on the 'let's label this' bandwagon, because I tend to shy away form bracketing people into specific categories.... I think often there's no clear-cut 'box' to put people into, and there's often an overlap of characteristics.... But he sounds Narcissistic....
pcplod Posted May 6, 2013 Posted May 6, 2013 I wonder if the divorce made him bitter and defensive (his ex wife cheated on him, and then moved in with man and took their kids with her, so it would be understandable)... or if it's a personality thing he's dealt with his whole life. Though I hardly think he could've been married for 20 years with his extremely defensive attitude and consequent projected blame. There was an incident where he said something inappropriate and I, extremely meekly, conveyed that I didn't think it was appropriate. He then got very defensive very quickly, to the point where I was apologizing for what I had brought up??? I felt steamrolled, and then even after I apologized he said he didn't want to talk to me anymore. I can't imagine that you can stay married to someone like this for 20 years, how would anything get resolved? Which is why perhaps, I think, his divorce caused this type of behavior. After a couple days, he contacted me again, and we sort of resumed where we had left off. Then, this weekend, we came across a different issue... and I tried to figure out ways that I could bring this problem up with him, but the scary scenario above kept running through my head... and I realized... this defensive is a dealbreaker... if I have to tiptoe around you and don't feel like I can bring up an issue with you in a "safe" way where I won't feel massacred and belittled for it, then I can't do it. I don't care how wonderful you are (or think you are). I just can't. So I ended it. His text to me the next day was "You're quite unique, aren't you?" <<< Any clue on what this mean? Because of his demeanor, I kind of took it as a backhanded snarky comment because I ended it through text (definitely did not want to face that backlash on the phone where I would be pulled apart, and probably be apologizing for wanting to end it, and then staying with him). I guess I'm on here partially to vent, partially to grieve, and of course to hear others experiences. I'm actually kind of sad because we did spend many hours talking to each other, but overall there were so many other things that outweighed it.... It's sad to read your story and I am sorry for you, particularly because it is so common. I even feel sorry for him because, uncorrected, it does spell the rest of his life. Who knows whether originally he was the product who created the broken marriage and created the break-up with you or was created by the difficulties of the marriage. Bad marriages can break good people. How long had he been divorced? If you believe that the majority of the formation of character is formulated early in childhood then it is likely he went into his marriage very much like that. It's only a guess, of course, but I reckon his "your unique" comment is a snide, sarcastic comment intended to mean that "you think you are so special, but you aren't". I guess you would agree that you aren't that special but you don't think you are, and so what? I like to believe that in principle everyone has the potential for self-redemption but the emphasis is on "self" and the first step in that is to realise and accept who you are, what you are and that when someone has a dig at you in specific terms you owe it to yourself to at least ask "Is it true? Any of it"? And if you get beyond that first stage it's bloody hard work achieving anything positive, having to be constant guard about your behaviour, looking for warning signals from others, being aware of back-sliding just like a recovering addict only with the disadvantage that it is not something that you can go 'cold turkey' on in any practical way. And this approach to life is not something just for blatantly broken people. It is something for all of us; you, me and every Tom, Dick and Harry. It is simply self-neglect if you do not attend to it or think that it isn't relevant to you. 1
soccerrprp Posted May 6, 2013 Posted May 6, 2013 Ladies (and gentlemen), So, I am very curious. Ninjainpajamas: This is actually a very common story by men...they got cheated on, therefore become bitter and defensive, insecure and possibly abusive, therefore they are a victim and have the right to act like a monkey in their current relationship. Do you find that this is a phenomenon predominantly exhibited by men? From my observations, friends, OLD profiles, here on LS, it is less common for women to be so cynical and bitter. Am I seeing this right? Having been in a 12+ yr marriage, very good and ended due to illness, I have a very (I think) positive perspective and view on relationships. A little more cynical, but not much more. I have dated a few divorced women and one thing I find VERY interesting and peculiar is that they find my positive outlook on relationships "unique" or "different." When I hear this, I sometimes cringe as if to brace myself for something worse to come. I'm wrong, of course, but that feeling just seems to slip in. Eh, anyway, just curious...
carhill Posted May 6, 2013 Posted May 6, 2013 Sorry things didn't work out.... Some thoughts as a divorced guy: 1. You said you work with him. Did you know him when he was married? Know his exW? I ask because everything not verifiable is hearsay. 2. How long has it been since he was legally divorced? That's easily verifiable too. In situations like the one he said he experienced, healing can take a long time. I've met women years after, some decades, and the pain and behaviors expressed from it still exist like the events were happening right now. They never healed. 3. How long did you date? You felt a dealbreaker coming on and, perhaps rightfully, gave him the benefit of the doubt. Reflecting on that, why was that? IMO, each experience teaches us something. If you feel this is the case, what lesson is contained in this experience? If no lessons obtain, then I wish you well and hope the next experience will be more positive.
Author whatdreamsmaycome Posted May 6, 2013 Author Posted May 6, 2013 Sorry things didn't work out.... Some thoughts as a divorced guy: 1. You said you work with him. Did you know him when he was married? Know his exW? I ask because everything not verifiable is hearsay. 2. How long has it been since he was legally divorced? That's easily verifiable too. In situations like the one he said he experienced, healing can take a long time. I've met women years after, some decades, and the pain and behaviors expressed from it still exist like the events were happening right now. They never healed. 3. How long did you date? You felt a dealbreaker coming on and, perhaps rightfully, gave him the benefit of the doubt. Reflecting on that, why was that? IMO, each experience teaches us something. If you feel this is the case, what lesson is contained in this experience? If no lessons obtain, then I wish you well and hope the next experience will be more positive. Hi Carhill, 1. I actually did not know him at all while he was married and did not know his exW either. So you are right, everything that was presented to me about him and his former marriage was hearsay (from his point of view) 2. Good point. I too have met some people (both men and women) that live in their past relationships well beyond their expiration date. He had been divorced for about 4 years, I believe. But something about his slightly ego-centric nature tells me that her leaving him for another man could have burned him pretty bad. ie. when he discusses it he makes sure to emphasize that HE was the one who filed papers. 3. We didn't date very long... about a month, but the reason why I gave him the benefit of the doubt after the first incident was because he made me feel like I had done something wrong by bringing up the issue. It's unfortunate, but by nature I am very self-aware, so I took what he said to heart and thought, "maybe I was in the wrong for bringing it up"... which is ridiculous, I realized later. Then when the second incident happened and I was ready to bring it up, I realized he had manipulated me into thinking that my ideas were wrong, unworthy of discussion, that my opinion didn't (and would not in the future) matter, and that I may never get through some sort of defensive egotistical wall that he had. The lesson contained in this experience, I guess would be to look at the other signs that may point to this type of behavior (not necessarily make a decision based on it, but really take it into consideration.) This man exhibited many traits -putting others down, getting really angry about non-serious situations, thinking he was too good for some people - that were clues. As for my own self, I learned that I need to stand up for myself... you should have seen me during that first incident, I was like a scared little sheep... apologizing so many times for something that would never be considered wrong in a normal context. I'm embarrassed that I became that way, even if it was for a second. No man (or woman) is ever worth feeling that way, and if he/she does make you feel that way, it's time to run for the hills.
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