Blacks' Fear?

[Nosmas]

True or False?

 

Black teachers and students fear No Child Left Behind endorsed standardized tests because they feel they will be embarrassed with the results.

[shamen]

Crap... you beat me to the thread! You should have named it NCLB...

 

Anyway, no one I know who is black/African American is afraid of these tests. It's a socio-economic issue. Come on, Nosmas. You should know that already, eh?

 

Standardized testing is only part of the issue. Getting certified/qualified teachers in all classrooms is the bigger issue, IMHO. There simply are not enough in all areas. Social Studies, English and elementary school teachers are a dime a dozen (no offense to those of you who are), but the schools are still seriously hurting for Special Ed, World Language, Tech Ed, Math and Science teachers. Can't wait to see what happens when so many of these teachers get fired because they are not highly qualified.

 

And why isn't it being funded the way it should be? In my state, the teachers had to mobilize statewide just to get the state wide funding that was promised.

 

So, my answer is false! Lower socio-economic schools fear these tests.

[Mr Spock]

Explain standardized testing a bit more.

[shamen]

Standardized testing is stuff like the SAT, the Advanced Placement exams, the GREs (the test that you take to get into grad school), the Praxis exams (tests you take to become a teacher), all of the exams that you take in school that are national or statewide. The College Board (the company that makes many standardized tests) currently holds the card for many of these examinations.

 

Many of them are multiple choice, then with some sort of "free response" section where you get to write out your answers and a teacher or grader (trained to grade these sorts of tests, usually the specific one) gives you some sort of score on it. Some anonymous person in often some other city/state (so there's no preferential treatment given to students).

 

One of the biggest gripes that many have with standardized testing is that it holds certain aspects of life to be cross cultural (stuff that everyone knows and is assumed knowledge). So, teachers end up teaching kids how to take these kinds of tests and teach them how to succeed on them. Which is totally true, IMHO (teaching to the test). To succeed on this kind of test, one has to know what to expect (multiple choice, free response, etc).

 

They just changed the SAT for example, so there's a big shift in how teachers are going to teach kids to succeed on this new test (no more analogies, new essay portion).

 

So, basically, it means that all kids take the same tests and it takes away more power away from the educational system from the states (in some cases, specifically national exams). Students have been taking state wide exams to graduate HS in many states for some time now; it's just been thrust into the spotlight since Bush helped enact the No Child Left Behind (NCLB) Act. NY state has the Regents' exams, for example, which ends up giving students different kinds of diplomas based on the scores that they receive on these tests in HS.

 

OK, last comment. There are so many standardized tests out there that teachers have to teach to like 4 or 5 different types of exams, because, of course, none of them use the same format. Fun stuff!

[Nosmas]

Crap... you beat me to the thread! You should have named it NCLB...

 

Anyway, no one I know who is black/African American is afraid of these tests. It's a socio-economic issue. Come on, Nosmas. You should know that already, eh?

 

Well I waited.

 

Regardless, without the titillation of penis size inquiry, or the word "Bush" in the thread title, or one gender's amazing astonishment that the other gender doesn't meet their every expectation, the subject seems lost in the LS forum. Only about half the public know about NCLB, but everyone has an opinion about penis size.

 

At any rate, you got it: However, do not presume I have answered the original question: "True or False?" I simply asked. It was none other than Wilbur Rich, professor of political science at Wellesley College in Massachusetts and an African American that said blacks fear the new tests will embarrass black students and teachers. His point was to demonstrate that black teachers do not represent lower, but more the bulwark of the black middle class.

 

Now back to the funding quagmire: Democrats voted for NCLB, and like many Bush initiatives, haven't proposed any alternative to it, but have hammered Bush for budgeting $billions less than the law allows. Democrats are able to criticize his priorities, but not his accountability. Republicans aren't that happy with the law because it vastly enlarges the federal role in education.

 

IMHO, it about time the feds began funding some of the outrageously expensive mandates they've forced upon states based on the broad language (and liberal judicial interpretations) of the Civil Rights Act. E.g. one reason teachers are paid less is because resources are being diverted to educate every child in the USA. While this seems harsh (especially on prime time TV), we either need to fund teacher pay raises AND special education technicians to diaper and catherize their special needs students AND ESL programs for illegal immigrant children AND in school or alternative suspension facilities for the chronically incorrigible OR we need to set priorities.

 

Teachers have also shot themselves in the proverbial foot. It sounds like in your state teachers may "mobilize." To me this means they are unionized, creating a couple of basic problems;

1. They are not really "professionals," and,

2. Union rules prohibit "merit" pay for harder working, more competent, or teachers that are in greater demand like math/science.

 

The first is simply a public perception problem, but if the public doesn't perceive teachers as professionals, then they are unlikely to pay them as such. Regardless, the second problem would prohibit teachers from receiving larger stipends.

 

OK, since you've bothered to read through my rant, I'll go ahead an answer: I agree with Dr. Rich. But also believe that any minority should have some reluctance to be judged on a "standardized" test until every white suburbanite kid is held accountable for their performance on a test designed by, and for, socioeconomically underprivilaged urban blacks.

 

Of course, could we begin to imagine of what such a test would consist? Eubonics perhaps? The higher level thinking skills necessary to know what to use to cut a Kilo of coke and who to sell it to afterwards to decrease the risk of detection?

 

Come on- You know its true, if not politically correct.

[shamen]

Hey Nosmas,

 

I still think you should have named it NCLB... I bet more people would answer...

 

Anyway, I am disappointed that the funding hasn't been out there for the program. It's making things hard! Maybe the republicans are disappointed because it's too much federal intervention, but in theory, some of the things I agree with. But, the reality is so different. It's not like qualified certified teachers are banging on the doors of the schools to get in who teach the classes that we can't find teachers for. (Please excuse by ending sentences with a preposition here.)

 

Interesting point that the prof had about the African American/Black teachers being mostly middle class.

 

You are right that there are vast amounts of money being spent on all sorts of programs. You should see the size of my local schools' Special Ed department (teachers and para professionals)! It's the biggest department in the school. But how do you set priorities in this list that you gave of programs? Suggestions? Oh, and BTW, I'm disappointed that you say ESL programs for illegal immigrant children. Most of the immigrant kids in the local school system are here legally! I speak Spanish, BTW, as well as English. And I'm a legal immigrant who has been naturalized.

 

In my state, some of the counties are union and some have teacher associations (no right to strike). I believe in the union. It does not make teachers less professional, IMHO. If there was merit pay, people who were liked better by their principal would receive more money unless there was an extremely well set list of guidelines to make this work. I can't see it working locally, personally.

 

Good point about the standarized tests given by the lower socio economic people. Yes, middle and upper class economic people do write these tests and live a different life. Is it fair? No. But, to succeed in society, don't we have to teach our students how to survive in that world? Should the tests be like that? Probably not. What to do to make it more fair? I don't know, maybe the prof has a suggestion. Make more readings multicultural, make the math problems more multicultural, the science issues, all of it. Put tech ed questions on the tests? But we can't assume that all kids take this class. Standarized testing assumes a base of knowledge (and assumes that the kids are going to college) and not all kids are taking the same classes.

 

Why did you have to bring up drugs on the tests? Yes, it's a problem in any lower socio economic area (as it is in many priviledged communities), but maybe the upper crust kids could answer the question about the drugs too, eh?

[Nosmas]

OK, I'll compromise. The next time I start a thread, I'll somehow weave "Penis Size" into the title; e.g., "What is more important, NCLB or our penis size?"

 

Anyway, didn't mean to ruffle any Hispanic feathers. I just used the federal court ordered mandate in CA (the same day after the state passed a law disallowing) that all children must be educated in the CA public school system regardless of their nationality (many are Mexican citizens) as an example of federal control without federal funding to support the new burden on the system (which includes ESL). In fact, I'd think that those legal citizens within the state's ESL program would be most harmed since now their ESL programs are flooded with the children of illegal immigrants, diluting the program's benefits. BTW: I sponsor our school's Hispanic International Studies Society, the unhappy acronym HISS.

 

I believe in the union. It does not make teachers less professional, IMHO. If there was merit pay, people who were liked better by their principal would receive more money unless there was an extremely well set list of guidelines to make this work. I can't see it working locally, personally.

 

Yes, this part of the thread is predictable. You are pro Union. My point is that teacher's WANT to be perceived as "professional," yet unionization, in the public's view, is not "professional." In fact it is the antithesis of what defines "professional behavior" in our society, i.e. Doctors, Lawyers, are "professionals" because they practice their "profession" without collective bargaining agreements. They are also compensated based on their performance, not on merit pay that may, or may not be with held through management "favoritism."

 

Which opens another good point: Shouldn't teachers, like almost everyone else on the planet that is supervised, be awarded for better performance by their supervisors? Again, until teachers get over fear of "management," they will remain justifiably categorized as non-professionals.

 

Now, about standardized tests. We gotta have SOMETHING to hold schools accountable for producing a product. One of the greatest difficulties we have is defining what that product should be. A "good citizen" or a "productive citizen" or a "college-ready citizen?" We have been raising the standards, but we haven't really defined what we need to produce because what we need has been a moving target. For example, since the mid-90's, computer and inter-net use has become essential for every student and teacher. But I know MANY teachers and fewer students that can use simple MS power point, excel, and word programs to prepare lessons and to increase their productivity. Anyway, what is standard? Well, even a simple 8th grade math test should be easily standardized, right? We both know it isn't. Why? Definition.

 

Finally, the solution to your point regarding the teacher shortage is simple: Lower qualification standards. In my state it is possible to begin teaching with NO certification process, NO experience, and NO educational background in pedigoglogical theory. You do need a 4 year college degree. Again, the erosion of "professional" credentials.

[shamen]

Ha ha on NCLB or penis size!

 

When it comes to the CA mandate, things are tough out there, no doubt. The government should back up its programs with the cash. Agreed. The issue of illegal immigration is another thread, so I'm not going to get too into this part of the discussion.

 

About unions...

 

You mention that doctors and lawyers have no union. However, they are being sued to high heaven. Doctors are becoming scared to practice ob-gyn because of all the lawsuits. America's predisposition to sue is a major problem. Are there Associations for these groups? Yes. AMA. Are they unions? No, but an association does a lot of the same things.

 

Would I like merit pay for teachers? Absolutely. But I do believe that it would be hard to institute. I've seen good teachers pushed out of schools because the principal didn't like them. I liked both the teachers and the principal. That scares me. Do bad teachers always get pushed out? No, because of tenure, it's so much harder to get them out. Do I think tenure is a good thing? Not always. And some of these bad teachers get promoted to chair and then to Assistant Principal. Scary stuff.

 

Do I think that teachers are overworked? Yes. 50-60 hour works are commonplace. Are some of the things that teachers are asked to do and put up with overwhelming? Yes. Students in special ed are allowed to say, "F*** you, you f***ing b****," to the teacher and the teacher has to take them back into their classroom after a five minute cooling off period (even while that student does not have a disciplinary piece in their IEP).

 

Therefore we need unions. To protect the teachers, IMHO.

 

About standardized tests...

 

Yes, we should have something, to show that students have some sort of knowledge. But again, what to base it on? It's fluid, as you mentioned. The problem is that curriculum and the kinds of classes taught in schools do not always keep up. The tests are always going to be slightly behind the times, if not behind.

 

The day that the schools have all the computers they need is the day that all teachers and students will be able to be proficient in the programs that you mentioned. I have a friend who started teaching in '95. You know what kind of computer she had in her department? An Apple IIE, for 5 teachers. That's disgusting. Things are a lot better at her school now, but it still has a long way to go.

 

About qualified and certified teachers...

 

Wow, I'm sorry that your state lets those people start teaching. They don't do that in my state. A teacher has to be certified to get a job in some counties, but not in others. I agree that this is a major problem. But what do you do when there are simply no candidates? Don't offer the classes? I would love to see all counties have only certified teachers, but I don't know that this can be achieved because of the lack of candidates. I'm really curious to see what happens when the gavel comes down and everyone is supposed to get rid of all of the uncertifieds (NCLB).

 

What is it now? 50% attrition rate in the first 5 years? People who simply can't hack it because it's too much work and they are asked to put up with too much crap from the "chronically incorrigable"?

[Matilda]

Originally posted by shamen

You are right that there are vast amounts of money being spent on all sorts of programs. You should see the size of my local schools' Special Ed department (teachers and para professionals)! It's the biggest department in the school. But how do you set priorities in this list that you gave of programs? Suggestions?

 

I would like to know the answer to this question as well.

[Nosmas]

First, federal law must be changed, perhaps even constitutionally. The Civil Rights Act threw open the doors to lawsuits against school systems that interpreted their own mandates to educate what is now known as special ed (SPED) students. Interestingly, outside NCLB, there is nothing federal law that directly involves the federal government in public education. Sure, there is the first and fourteenth amendments that prohibit schools (and every other public entity within the USA) from discrimination. Courts have interpreted these statues and prohibited "separate but equal" facilities, making it "mandatory" that schools not only offer SPED students the same facilities as any other student BUT ALSO improved resources that must be available to meet their special needs.

 

Changing the Civil Rights Act is political suicide in our PC based culture. It will never happen.

 

So, it is up to the NCLB Act to establish federal funding supplements for schools to maintain and improve resources for SPED, as well as ESL, programs to eliminate dropouts, etc., etc., etc.

 

And some of these bad teachers get promoted to chair and then to Assistant Principal. Scary stuff.

 

Well, I suppose it is scary if you believe this is the exception to the rule. Look almost anywhere and you'll realize this isn't abnormal (business, government). The difference is that bad management within these realms usually has consequences. Not so in education, where everyone has been marginalized with the insistence that all teachers (and principals) receive the same pay (scaled to experience) regardless of their bad (or good) productivity. This is one result of unionization. It is also why no one in their right mind will inject more money after bad into the system that resists any test of accountability on either the aggregate or individual level.

 

Of course, another result is that teachers have some measure of "empowerment." Although it is somewhat dubious to find the results of union power, since teachers, as you've mentioned, continue to work well beyond their contract hours without compensation, receive some of the worst benefits of any "profession," and generally toil within some of the most stressful working environments imaginable.

 

It seems to me that NCLB could be interpreted to force greater funding into school systems that would ameliorate these problems, but one of the first obstacles that must be removed are teacher unions that are fighting the federal government over the turf. As you know, teachers have associations, as well as doctors and lawyers, but the difference between our perception of professionalism is that doctors and lawyers have no union.

 

Of course, who really wants to bother interpreting NCLB when we can debate the size of the average penis?

[Matilda]

First, federal law must be changed, perhaps even constitutionally.

 

I am unsure what you mean here, changed in what way?

 

Courts have interpreted these statues and prohibited "separate but equal" facilities, making it "mandatory" that schools not only offer SPED students the same facilities as any other student BUT ALSO improved resources that must be available to meet their special needs.

 

Again, I'm confused, you feel this is a bad thing?

[shamen]

Originally posted by Nosmas

First, federal law must be changed, perhaps even constitutionally. The Civil Rights Act threw open the doors to lawsuits against school systems that interpreted their own mandates to educate what is now known as special ed (SPED) students. Interestingly, outside NCLB, there is nothing federal law that directly involves the federal government in public education. Sure, there is the first and fourteenth amendments that prohibit schools (and every other public entity within the USA) from discrimination. Courts have interpreted these statues and prohibited "separate but equal" facilities, making it "mandatory" that schools not only offer SPED students the same facilities as any other student BUT ALSO improved resources that must be available to meet their special needs.

 

Changing the Civil Rights Act is political suicide in our PC based culture. It will never happen.

 

So, it is up to the NCLB Act to establish federal funding supplements for schools to maintain and improve resources for SPED, as well as ESL, programs to eliminate dropouts, etc., etc., etc.

 

Well, I suppose it is scary if you believe this is the exception to the rule. Look almost anywhere and you'll realize this isn't abnormal (business, government). The difference is that bad management within these realms usually has consequences. Not so in education, where everyone has been marginalized with the insistence that all teachers (and principals) receive the same pay (scaled to experience) regardless of their bad (or good) productivity. This is one result of unionization. It is also why no one in their right mind will inject more money after bad into the system that resists any test of accountability on either the aggregate or individual level.

 

Of course, another result is that teachers have some measure of "empowerment." Although it is somewhat dubious to find the results of union power, since teachers, as you've mentioned, continue to work well beyond their contract hours without compensation, receive some of the worst benefits of any "profession," and generally toil within some of the most stressful working environments imaginable.

 

It seems to me that NCLB could be interpreted to force greater funding into school systems that would ameliorate these problems, but one of the first obstacles that must be removed are teacher unions that are fighting the federal government over the turf. As you know, teachers have associations, as well as doctors and lawyers, but the difference between our perception of professionalism is that doctors and lawyers have no union.

 

Of course, who really wants to bother interpreting NCLB when we can debate the size of the average penis?

 

The Civil Rights Act should not be changed. The problem exists with the funding for the programs that the feds create, not with the programs, or the Acts. Again, NCLB is not being funded properly, hence the problems with the program.

 

I have no problem with having a way to account for teachers' productivity. There should be some measure. But how do you measure the schools that are already so far behind in terms of socio-economics than others? The schools that get the students from MSs who are regularly entering HS with 3rd grade reading scores? Should they be measured the same way as the schools where the majority of students go to college and have the money to do so? Do we go on final exam scores? Do we go on the amount of As that teachers give? Do we go on number of kids who pass AP tests? How do we account for teachers' productivity? This is not as simple as at an office job, which is much more measurable (how much they actually did).

 

I do feel that teachers have some measure of empowerment. I can only imagine how much worse things might be without the unions. All students back in 5 minutes in classroms after saying to a teacher, "F*** you, you f***ing b****!" No thank you. I know that the students at my local school who do something like this are getting a break for a few days (but I also know that this is not the case in all schools). Lastly, I know that the union has fought for certain rights for teachers in schools that I don't think they could've gotten on their own. Yes, conditions are still hard, but not as bad as they could be.

[Nosmas]

How do we account for teachers' productivity?

 

This is not as simple as at an office job, which is much more measurable (how much they actually did).

 

I have worked within and without teaching. Most jobs are just as or more involved with knowledge management than you might imagine. Few American office workers have productivity measurement related to the number of words they type.

 

In the "real" world (outside government) workers might be the greatest producers they can possibly be: And then be fired or laid off. They MUST produce something the public values. Teachers are actually just government workers, happily immune to the "real" market forces that might otherwise put them "out of business."

[shamen]

Originally posted by Nosmas

I have worked within and without teaching. Most jobs are just as or more involved with knowledge management than you might imagine. Few American office workers have productivity measurement related to the number of words they type.

 

In the "real" world (outside government) workers might be the greatest producers they can possibly be: And then be fired or laid off. They MUST produce something the public values. Teachers are actually just government workers, happily immune to the "real" market forces that might otherwise put them "out of business."

 

I too have experience on both sides of the work equation. And I must disagree. Every other job that I have ever had had a product of some sort that you could see. I produced things of some sort. I've been a secretary, a waitress, a barista, a dj, a dresser in the theatre, a receptionist, and sold ads for a newspaper. Every one of those jobs had a product. You could see what I produced in every one of those jobs (except for maybe the receptionist). Easy to evaluate my productivity in every job, including the receptionist, as you can bet that my boss would've heard something negative had I not done my job.

 

How do you measure the product on the teacher equation? Again, what do we measure it on? See my above post.

[Nosmas]

So, you get my point. You sold ads for a newspaper, your performance was based on the number of ads sold, or the profitability of each ad, or the total sales per month......whatever. But you were held accountable regardless of the economic conditions, weather, changes in taste, editorials the paper might print that would piss off your customer base, etc.

 

Shouldn't teachers be held at least similarly accountable to some measure of performance? Yes. Shouldn't students entering the classroom at the beginning of the year represent a better product at the end? Yes.

 

Is this such a complex process that NO instrument can measure increases in human skill and knowledge? If so, then what is the point of the educational institution's award of degrees?

 

Teachers will be better served when they begin to grow up and embrace the same accountability for their product as real professionals and stop trying to invent reasons to avoid it.