Breathe Posted September 22, 2004 Posted September 22, 2004 One of my closest friends has been fighting in the war (directly in Baghdad) for the past 6 months. I've watched him grow up practically - since he was 12. Our parents are neighbors and best friends so we definitely have a close connection between us all. He's a very sensitive man - not afraid to show emotions and/or cry. I could never picture him fighting in a war... but he is. He's just not a "fighting" type of guy. He doesn't talk much about what goes on over there, but worries himself whether or not he's a good person because of the things he's endured and been forced to do while there. I have always remained positive with him and encourage him. He's a great person - yet I fear that this experience may change him and when he does return home - he won't be the same person. I know some people return fine, while others return to have anger, drinking, marriage or other problems - as everyone is different. I guess I'm looking for someone that can share any similar situations bad or good - or of any ways to help someone that has returned get through things....
Sundaymorning Posted September 22, 2004 Posted September 22, 2004 My friend who is a Marine just returned from Iraq. He KNOWS they are changing that country in a GOOD way. He said the city he was in was a dump when he got there. There are buildings up now, cleaned up the streets, etc. THERE Is good being done over there, the media hates Bush and portrays the negatives simply because they can. My marine friend is much more into figuring out his future now than ever before. Find a wife, go to college, etc. He knows he killed those who did bad, and he is not a bad person for it.
netrie Posted September 22, 2004 Posted September 22, 2004 AT LEAST WE KNOW WHERE WE STAND WITH BUSH! Check out this website: http://www.kerryoniraq.com/audio.asp
Author Breathe Posted September 22, 2004 Author Posted September 22, 2004 THERE Is good being done over there. My H is also a Marine and went to Iraq in January. His unit was involved in the battle of Nasiriah - not sure how to spell that - so it really shook a lot of the guys up. He is HE&HS and was able to help build roads, airfields, soccer fields for the kids, schools, etc. They did a lot of good - yes - I agree with this. But the terrible things they witnessed there is I feel, what also contributed to the changes in them. Some people returned from Vietnam messed up as some are returning from Iraq messed up. My husband was one of them. To me, he died over there and another personality just took over his body. Sad.... I do see that we are doing good over there for Iraq. But I also see how some of the Iraqi people just don't want us there. Who are we to play God and tell them how to run their own country? Who are we to go in there and do this and do that? We went there for weapons of mass destruction. But - someone tell me - what the hell are we still doing over there?! Help me understand this please!
Sundaymorning Posted September 23, 2004 Posted September 23, 2004 You see, if we help them set up their govenment and regain a country that could be there one day, we can reduce terrorism drastically. Many of the terrorists are trying to make money for their families by doing terror and joining the regimes...simply because there are no jobs there and they cannot support their families without money. If we help set work and government up, terrorists will lose. We also must break down terrorists groups and hideouts there so terrorists can be brought down. That affects the whole world. Spain, Russia and the USA have all witnessed terrorist attacks but somehow, democrats fail to recognize the danger they still and will pose for the world. They want to sit back and let Iraq just be the way it is. Who cares, its not our country they say. WEll you see its called a domino effect. Dont let the first one fall, we all will fall. You must kill the queen ants first, and then the followers. We are trying to do that, the media just makes it seem like we are not. How does this relate to you or the USA? Well, its simple. Peace can be started in another country and that affects the world. The more we kill terrorists, the more lives we can save because terrorists want to kill us as well. MANY IRAQIS do want us there..........MANY. Media does not portray that either. We help them, give them food they do not have, give them schools they do not have, give them a GOVERNMENT they do not have. THEY CAN VOTE THIS YEAR OR NEXT YEAR!!! How exciting is that?! Oh and another thing, the Kuran is NOT PEACEFUL. I can site you many writings that just show you how unpeaceful the Muslim faith is. Stop feeling sorry for the USA, for those supposedly innocent Iraqis that are dying everyday- the media blows that way out of proportion. Start feeling proud that someone else besides your own family is prospering and able to go to school like never before. Can we stop thinking of ourselves for once. And yet another thing, if you are going to fight in a war by volunteering, do not whine when you come back. You chose to do that, suck it up and be proud of what you have done for petes sake.
netrie Posted September 23, 2004 Posted September 23, 2004 Originally posted by Breathe My H is also a Marine and went to Iraq in January... Some people returned from Vietnam messed up as some are returning from Iraq messed up. My husband was one of them. To me, he died over there and another personality just took over his body. Sad.... You need to find a way to get your husband into therapy quickly. He sounds to be suffering from PTSD (post traumatic stress disorder). It is very serious. Here is a book I recommend that you buy on amazon.com ------ Waking the Tiger by Peter Levine. the book addresses these issues: trauma, PTDS and also about war victims and soldiers... DO IT NOW for both of you. Netalia
moimeme Posted September 23, 2004 Posted September 23, 2004 we can reduce terrorism drastically If the terrorists originated in Iraq, that might be true. However, they did not and do not. They are from around the world and were being trained in AFGHANISTAN, not Iraq. However, constant lies about Iraquis being 'terrorists' sank in. Now a bunch of terrorists have gone to Iraq to fight the Americans. Iraq is much, much worse off than it was under Saddam, who didn't get along with Osama and so kept the terrorists out. And Osama, the guy who admitted to organizing a large number of successful terrorist attacks against the US and other nations, is NOT in Iraq. He's still alive and well and plotting attacks while Bush spends money and lives in Iraq.
Author Breathe Posted September 23, 2004 Author Posted September 23, 2004 Can we stop thinking of ourselves for once. I don't think that any of us concerned with the war are being selfish. Are hearts ache for all the people this war has hurt, it's not about one person or one country" it's about the whole world. if you are going to fight in a war by volunteering, do not whine when you come back. You chose to do that, suck it up and be proud of what you have done for petes sake. I don't think any of the military men and woman are whining about their chosen careers, nor about having to fight in a war. However, how can one not be effected by watching the suffering of innocent people, especially children? The terror of fighting for their own lives... sleeping in dirt holes, bathing and washing there clothes out of MRE boxes once every few weeks.... getting eaten up by bugs and then having flies infest their wounds... it's awful for them. I know a lot of the guys ate one MRE a day and gave the rest away to Iraqi children only to watch the kids get beat up and have the food stolen. We cannot imagine a life like that unless we've lived it. I don't know about you - but I haven't had to deal with those things first hand. You have to ask yourself, how would you feel if you had to live like that. How would you feel if you had to kill someone? How would you feel if you witnessed the death of your closest friends or the deaths of small children? It's not an easy thing for anyone to have to go through. "Selfish" - HELL NO! These people of our military are most likely some of the MOST UNSELFISH people in this world. You need to find a way to get your husband into therapy quickly. He sounds to be suffering from PTSD (post traumatic stress disorder). It is very serious. He's has been speaking with a counselor on base - however, this is another problem with our military. If a Marine, or any other military person goes into a base counselor to discuss anything - it's NOT confidential and can be used against them. So one may say that help is there for them, but technically if they seek that help, they are killing their own careers. So they don't really get the help they need.
ladyangel Posted September 23, 2004 Posted September 23, 2004 Originally posted by moimeme Iraq is much, much worse off than it was under Saddam... You must be joking. Is it convenient for you to turn a blind eye to the facts about Saddam Hussein? MANY IRAQIS do want us there..........MANY. Media does not portray that either. We help them, give them food they do not have, give them schools they do not have, give them a GOVERNMENT they do not have. Thanks for bringing that up. Once again, it is more convenient for some folks to turn a blind eye to this in order to support their far-fetched theories. http://www.usmc.mil/marinelink/mcn2000.nsf//?OpenDocument Iraqi businessman’s ingenuity saves U.S. taxpayer dollars Submitted by: 1st Force Service Support Group Story by: Computed Name: 1st Lt. Robert E. Shuford Story Identification #: 200492094533 CAMP MANHATTAN, Iraq(Sept. 20, 2004) -- While fighting goes on only a few miles away in Ramadi and Fallujah, Marines are making progress on another front.
netrie Posted September 23, 2004 Posted September 23, 2004 Originally posted by moimeme we can reduce terrorism drastically He's still alive and well and plotting attacks while Bush spends money and lives in Iraq. THIS WAR IS NOT ONLY ABOUT IRAQ AND YOU KNOW IT. ITS ABOUT RIDDING OUR WORLD OF THE THUGS CALLED TERRORISTS. And, it doesn't matter Afghanistan or Iraq... The American soldiers are a lot more informed about this than you are proclaiming! Certainly the American soldiers are aware of where and what and when...
moimeme Posted September 23, 2004 Posted September 23, 2004 Lady A - here's a wild idea - how's about going into a country and helping build infrastructure without bombing it to oblivion first??????? Gee, who'da thunk it? Well, most of the rest of the world. It's called international development and it works great - and without endless death and destruction! And, it doesn't matter Afghanistan or Iraq... The American soldiers are a lot more informed about this than you are proclaiming! Certainly the American soldiers are aware of where and what and when... Um, no. Soldiers do what they are told. It isn't their business to know and it certainly isn't their business to make the decisions. It does matter a great deal whether it's Afghanistan or Iraq. That's like saying it doesn't matter if it's the US or Mexico.
dyermaker Posted September 23, 2004 Posted September 23, 2004 Terrorism has increased, Al Quaeda has more influence in Iraq than they did before, people are still being killed, people are still being tortured, and gas prices haven't even decreased. People can continue to have hope for the war on Iraq being successful, but there comes a time when you're going to have to leave your island and admit that you're defeated.
ladyangel Posted September 23, 2004 Posted September 23, 2004 Originally posted by moimeme Lady A - here's a wild idea - how's about going into a country and helping build infrastructure without bombing it to oblivion first??????? Moi - how's about telling me how we would have done that with an evil dictator in power? How do you think that country got the way it was? Was THAT our fault too? I'm sure you'll figure out a way to say it was.
Sundaymorning Posted September 23, 2004 Posted September 23, 2004 Originally posted by dyermaker Terrorism has increased, Al Quaeda has more influence in Iraq than they did before, people are still being killed, people are still being tortured, and gas prices haven't even decreased. People can continue to have hope for the war on Iraq being successful, but there comes a time when you're going to have to leave your island and admit that you're defeated. Are you aware of why terrorism has increased? And could you site your source? Because I know that in Iraq, it seems to have increased because some terrorists are not scared of dying from Saddam and his army, so they are coming out from behind the bushes from hiding and secretly doing their thing,. Did you think this war was going to be fast? NO. It is going to take years and years. Admit defeat? Ok, so the terrorists can grow more and more and then take the whole world?
Sundaymorning Posted September 23, 2004 Posted September 23, 2004 Oh, Moi, Youre so naive. 1) There are no terrorists in Iraq, right? OK, What was Saddam, who are those groups beheading people in Iraq? Who are those suicide bombers in Iraq? 2) If you did not know it, we are also in Afghanistan. We have 19,000 troops there. Are you there everyday? Do you know what we are trying to accomplish? NO. I guarentee they are doing their best. I trust this president and dont you dare try to tell me why I should not, because its all crap and lies.
ladyangel Posted September 23, 2004 Posted September 23, 2004 Rather than dwelling on the negative and living in the past, I think I'll try to insert a little positive in wherever I can. http://washingtontimes.com/world/ BTW...thanks Monday for trying to do some good here. Let's just ignore those who sit around with their hands over their ears because they don't want to hear that anything good is happening.
HokeyReligions Posted September 23, 2004 Posted September 23, 2004 Originally posted by moimeme we can reduce terrorism drastically If the terrorists originated in Iraq, that might be true. However, they did not and do not. They are from around the world and were being trained in AFGHANISTAN, not Iraq. However, constant lies about Iraquis being 'terrorists' sank in. Now a bunch of terrorists have gone to Iraq to fight the Americans. Iraq is much, much worse off than it was under Saddam, who didn't get along with Osama and so kept the terrorists out. And Osama, the guy who admitted to organizing a large number of successful terrorist attacks against the US and other nations, is NOT in Iraq. He's still alive and well and plotting attacks while Bush spends money and lives in Iraq. That is absolutely false, Moimeme!! Yes, some of the TRAINING grounds are in Afghanistan, but they are also in Iraq. And Iraq, under Saddam, supported terrorists and our President said that if a country supports, hides, shelters, etc. terrorists then they will dealt with. If I stand in front of a criminal about to be shot I can expect to be shot too. We are the boost our good neighbors (Iraq) needed to get the vermin (Saddam/terrorists) out of their country. We are not done HELPING them clean up yet and we are not controlling their government, or playing God (or Allah) -- we are assisting them with our intelligence, technology, personnel, strength of character and profound belief in freedom of oppression -- so profound, that we are willing to die for it. We are happy that it's not all on our shores -- of course we are and while we are helping Iraqi's we are also protecting ourselves -- and that includes those countries, like Canada, who could someday find acts of war committed on their shores. The Majority of Iraqi people are in support of their new country and in ousting Saddam and his regime. The good far out weighs the bad in this war, and has much more support. I wish we could go into Afghanistan now and go after the terrorists there, and I hope that someday soon we can. There will always be terrorists in the world and we all know that we can't eliminate terrorism completely, but we can damned sure reduce them and the damage they do to the rest of the world. People die in war -- innocent and guilty. The majority of those who die are guilty. I don't listen to the biased news -- I talk to people who have been there and know first-hand how they are treated by the people, and have experienced the good we are doing. Yes, war changes people. That is part of war. Any war and no matter which side you are on -- it changes people. 9/11 was an act of war, launched against the USA on our shores. The individual person (Saddam/Osama/etc.) is representing a defined group of people dedicated to the ruthless murder and torture of humans. We go after the whole group. We have to. We can't say "Osama is dead, its all over" because there will be more Osama's and more Saddam's to step up and take leadership. We must attack the group. ALL terrorists must know that we will come after them. As my nephew said (and he was in Iraq in the beginning and I have another nephew who will soon be deployed there) "They started it, we'll end it."
Fayebelle Posted September 23, 2004 Posted September 23, 2004 In case you failed to notice- this is a thread to support troops and their friends/family. Unless you have something to say along those lines - Stay Out of It! Go pollute the other political threads you've been haunting Sunday- My ex BF had A LOT of probs w/PTS when he returned from Iraq- mostly from internalizing the pain instead of expressing it. He also had a lot of anger that people truly didn't understand what he was doing there- as he put it more enfisis was placed on what Kobe Bryant wore to court and the general # of people killed in the war- he wanted it to be known that those #'s had faces and plenty of comrades still fighting in their tradition- that he had accomplished some good- like his work w/the school system and protecting children trying to receive an education. He chose to enlist after 9/11 - he WANTED to make a difference and was more than willing to head to war. He spent over a yr in Iraq and would be in Afganistan right now (he was supposed to head there 8/28) but they needed him to fill a teaching post in Ft Benning. Despite all that he has seen and done- horrors that most of us can't imagine- he thinks we belong there- he is proud of what he did and what other soldiers continue to do. I also have a cousin in the Navy who is working on his Blue to Green- going straight from Navy to Army so he can play a more active role in the war. As friends and family it is our job to support them when they need a shoulder and above all- make certain they never feel shame from us for condeming their actions in the name of duty and freedom. In case you haven't noticed- they get enough crap from uncaring outsiders who are more concerned w/faceless people across the ocean- than the people that come from right here at home.
moimeme Posted September 23, 2004 Posted September 23, 2004 Ok, so the terrorists can grow more and more and then take the whole world? Couldn't possibly happen. The only nation that could 'take the whole world' is yours. And the head of the Bush-Cheney campaign said on TV last night that the newly-elected president will have to get ready to rule 'the planet'. Are you aware of why terrorism has increased The same reason it increases in any invaded country. People angered by the invasion retaliate. OK, What was Saddam He was one of dozens of bad leaders. But he, like Osama, had been trained and funded by your own country. * The United States let Saddam do whatever he wanted to his own people as long as he did the US's bidding. Once Saddam refused to jump to US commands, that's when all of a sudden he became 'evil'. He had always been evil, he just was evil on the paycheque of the US. * There have been MANY 'evil' dictators who have tortured and killed people. One was Pinochet in Chile who got into power and stayed there with US help. While he tortured and killed people. The point is that this war is all about hypocrisy. You do not kill terrorists by blowing up a whole country. It didn't work in Afghanistan, now did it? Did it? If you did not know it, we are also in Afghanistan. We have 19,000 troops there. As opposed to ten times more in Iraq, where Osama isn't. I trust this president and dont you dare try to tell me why I should not, because its all crap and lies. So everything AJ has posted is 'crap and lies' even though you can find it in your own history books?
HokeyReligions Posted September 23, 2004 Posted September 23, 2004 Most of the stuff that AJ/Moimeme/Dyer/etc. have posted is chronically biased and based on lies. There are huge gaps that are left out of what is reported in the news. That's the way they all spin things. The sad thing is, they believe it so totally and buy into the lies. Citing sources to back themselves up does not mean anything. We all can do that. I don't buy into their sources either. I am, thankfully, able to sift through the trash and find the facts within the rhetoric. Presenting your opinion or belief as though it were fact, does not make it fact. It doesn't matter what resources or references are cited --- those are often taken out of context also and twisted to support whatever the biased belief happens to be. I would love to see these people actually have to live under the rule of dictators like Saddam. They couldn't unless they supported the terroristic acts. The anti-terrorists of the world would, and have, died in prisons and from torture because they expressed a contractdictory opinion to the terrorists. Those who are fighting against terrorism suffer for it. But its still worth the fight---even for those who would rather lie down with terrorism and try to hide from it in order to escape it. The people of Iraq did lie down and try to hide -- they were that afraid of Saddam and of the terrorists. The supported it out of fear and have joyfully welcomed the US and our allies and supported us because we are fighting not just for us, but for them. I only wish that it hadn't taken 9/11 to move forward. It should have happened sooner. We should have stayed there back when Bush Sr. was in office, but he bowed to the pressure of others. His son, while I don't agree 100% with him, is much stronger -- thank goodness. We have had some individuals in our military who were totally wrong and disgusting in their treatment of Iraqi prisoners. It is disgusting and they should be severely punished, including any individual leaders who knew about it and turned the other way. However, those few -- who gained so much media attention in an attempt to spin the entire war news again -- are NOT, I repeat NOT, a reflection on the American military or people. On the Other Hand -- the terrorists who so brutally torture and murder people (deliberately killing civilians as well as military) are representative of the Entire Group. There is a beheading thread around here somewhere. Those terrorists who did this are not doing it because they are a disgusting group within the ranks of a larger organization. They are not going against their organization. They are representing the entire organization. THAT is what we are fighting against.
Fayebelle Posted September 23, 2004 Posted September 23, 2004 I'd like to take a moment to once again try to convince Hokey to run for President. Thank you.
Author Breathe Posted September 23, 2004 Author Posted September 23, 2004 So what can the military do to help those returning from the war? My H had to go through a "defrag" class... it was only a few hours and it was mainly to let them know how things have changed at home and what to except when they get there... They didn't offer any real help to the emotional problems they would endure from the war. Counseling is offered for free, but there again, if it's sought out for the reason of PTS, then this is put on their profiles and can effect their careers in a negative way. Because counseling is not confidential, a lot of the personnel don't access it. Thus, they have failed marriages, DUIs, drinking, anger - related problems. It's a mess.... I know that once our loved ones are done fighting in the war we want them home as quickly as possible. However, I also see now that if the military would offer "defrag" courses for an extended amount of time before the military person returns home, how this could help tremendously.
Fayebelle Posted September 23, 2004 Posted September 23, 2004 I worry that the military would give clean mental bills of health so that the soldiers can be recalled if necessary. They can't send a "mentally disturbed" person into action- so they would make light of the issues to have the returning soldiers as a resource in the future. Is this true? I don't know. But it would make a morbid sense in the world of military. One idea is to have the soldiers talk w/a cleric- this way they can receive counseling w/an impartial sympathetic ear w/out tests and labels. If your H is spiritual - this may be helpful.
Author Breathe Posted September 23, 2004 Author Posted September 23, 2004 I know this is stupid - but sometimes I think that all our tax paying dollars that go to prisons should be to also, train them and send them into war. They murder - they have life sentences - lets put these (already insane) people and have them fight the wars..... rather than just giving them free room and board.... like I said, stupid thought.... but I still think it.
HokeyReligions Posted September 23, 2004 Posted September 23, 2004 http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/front/2810810http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/front/2810810 WASHINGTON -- Offering a simple, "Thank you America," Iraqi interim prime minister Ayad Allawi declared today that his country is moving successfully past the war that ousted Saddam Hussein and vowed that elections will take place next year as scheduled. "Today, we are better off, you are better off, the world is better off without Saddam Hussein," Allawi said. He added: "Your decision to go into Iraq was not an easy one, but it was the right one." "We Iraqis know that Americans have made and continue to make enormous sacrifices to liberate Iraq, to assure Iraq's freedom," Allawi said. "I have come here to thank you and to promise you that your sacrifices are not in vain."
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