Author CantgetoveritNY Posted May 3, 2013 Author Posted May 3, 2013 Well I suppose it will be something you will have to help her with in the future. I think let her know that that is what it is so that she doesn't mistake it for a boot on her neck. Good point. I do need to make sure of this bc she has already expressed that she feels watched. She does not say its unjustified, now. But I sense that after a time it might be viewed as a boot on the neck. Which I agree is no way to live. It is smart to recognize the possibilities of much joy with your W in the future despite her human frailties while weighing the possibilities of life with or without her - understanding the fact that everyone has problems. From your words I think I read that your W is a passionate woman, more passionate than "most others". I would imagine that could be a positive in ways that would also make her more fun than "most others". You might want to keep her around guy. You are correct that I have a lot of reasons to keep her. It is just that I'm having a lot of trouble "geting over it." Still in a lot of pain. Painful to look at her sometimes. But then its only been 9 months or so since Dday. I'm willing to give recon more time bc of what I've read here on this site. Many thanks to all of you who posted to this thread as well as to those of you who start other threads or post to other threads. This site has been a lifesaver for me and possibly a relationship saver for me and my WS.
Jonah Posted May 3, 2013 Posted May 3, 2013 she feels watched. Is there a way to make it feel more like "she feels cared for"? Maybe just say those words strait up. "I't not that I'm watching, just paying more attention because our relationship is so important to me" Still in a lot of pain. Painful to look at her sometimes. But then its only been 9 months or so since Dday. Is there a way to open communication in a way that you can let her know when you are hurting the worst so she can help you? I mean without her feeling under attack. I am guessing that is what you two are learning in MC? She is your mate so that's her job to help you when you need it. You know the hurt may never go away, but some things in life we just have to learn to be ok with.
waterwoman Posted May 3, 2013 Posted May 3, 2013 Just........? 'Just' has got nothing to do with it. Hurts like hell.
Jonah Posted May 3, 2013 Posted May 3, 2013 Just........? 'Just' has got nothing to do with it. Hurts like hell. Yes it does. And if we live long enough, I think there will be more painful life's events to experience. So what do we do with all that suffering Mrs. Waterwoman? Just suffer it? Or what?
waterwoman Posted May 3, 2013 Posted May 3, 2013 Yes it does. And if we live long enough, I think there will be more painful life's events to experience. So what do we do with all that suffering Mrs. Waterwoman? Just suffer it? Or what? Get past it, get over it and get on with it What else is there?
dichotomy Posted May 3, 2013 Posted May 3, 2013 (edited) Easy enough to answer in the abstract. I would have bet you everything I own that if I found out about a PA I'd leave. I'd even have given you good odds on murder of the two of them with me committing suicide. All this is out the window when the real situation is in your lap. I suppose, you can never know till your faced with the actual event.... I hear you.....but in my case this was not my first A rodeo. My first marriage had a combo EA/PA and was very cruel to me. After D Day I was weak, and let this continue for a while, maintaining hope. After divorce I spent two years in therapy and out of dating pool. What a waste of time and energy those two years. Life is too short. Never again. There is no doubt what I would in current marriage if I found out EA was PA, or even if NC ultimatum was violated. I am a very different man - and that's both sad and good Edited May 3, 2013 by dichotomy
Confused48 Posted May 3, 2013 Posted May 3, 2013 I suppose, you can never know till your faced with the actual event.... I hear you.....but in my case this was not my first A rodeo. My first marriage had a combo EA/PA and was very cruel to me. After D Day I was weak, and let this continue for a while, maintaining hope. After divorce I spent two years in therapy and out of dating pool. What a waste of time and energy those two years. Life is too short. Never again. There is no doubt what I would in current marriage if I found out EA was PA, or even if NC ultimatum was violated. I am a very different man - and that's both sad and good It sounds like you think it is weak to try to reconcile after a PA but not after an EA.
dichotomy Posted May 3, 2013 Posted May 3, 2013 (edited) It sounds like you think it is weak to try to reconcile after a PA but not after an EA. Not really. Its complicated As I said I was so deeply hurt the first marriage and it changed me. For me - if EA in second marriage was also PA I would not have accepted it. PA mattered to me and it was a deal breaker. But it also mattered how deep the EA was and what happened. It was complicated and I struggled to quantify how bad EA was - as I had limited hard evidence. In the end, I had to accept an understanding (most probable) and the NC ultimatum was the result. Also I have been careful to state on LS that full reconciliation has not taken place in my marriage, and work continues due to lots of related issues. So basically what happened after EA - was agreed terms to stay married... and work on it. I do not think it is necessarily weak for others to try to reconcile after PA as there are too many other variables and I don't live in their shoes. Also EA's can be worse in my mind than some PA's. Example might be a drunken one night stand while out of town at a conference - vs 1 year EA with someone that you see regularly and have deep emotions or hurtful things said. But again, I don't want to speak for others. Edited May 3, 2013 by dichotomy 3
Jonah Posted May 3, 2013 Posted May 3, 2013 Get past it, get over it and get on with it What else is there? Well, to follow up on your comment "...just..." Sometimes there is just no getting over it. Maybe, just maybe becoming ok with the way things are and "getting past it". But to not "get on with it"... to be stuck... that is a real problem as when there, blowing in the wind... the world can really have its way. 1
Author CantgetoveritNY Posted May 4, 2013 Author Posted May 4, 2013 Well, to follow up on your comment "...just..." Sometimes there is just no getting over it. Maybe, just maybe becoming ok with the way things are and "getting past it". But to not "get on with it"... to be stuck... that is a real problem as when there, blowing in the wind... the world can really have its way. I like this play on words. As my moniker suggests, I can't get over it. Maybe I will never get over it. But can I get past it? Or maybe not. Then, can I get on with it? So many option besides giving up. I like to have options. I might still give up. I might still quit. Those are valid options too. I like to have options. 1
Author CantgetoveritNY Posted May 4, 2013 Author Posted May 4, 2013 I do not think it is necessarily weak for others to try to reconcile after PA as there are too many other variables and I don't live in their shoes. Also EA's can be worse in my mind than some PA's. Example might be a drunken one night stand while out of town at a conference - vs 1 year EA with someone that you see regularly and have deep emotions or hurtful things said. But again, I don't want to speak for others. Good point! Good thoughts all in your post not just the quote. But your point here, really hits home for me. EA or PA. Either can be devastating. Put the two together and its nuclear. Or is it? What if the EA was stupid infatuation that ended in the light of Dday and the PA was unsatisfying obligatory compliment to the EA? Just a hypothetical. But what if?
Jonah Posted May 4, 2013 Posted May 4, 2013 I like this play on words. As my moniker suggests, I can't get over it. Maybe I will never get over it. But can I get past it? Or maybe not. Then, can I get on with it? So many option besides giving up. I like to have options. I might still give up. I might still quit. Those are valid options too. I like to have options. I am very familiar with what you are saying. Going through my situation, the worst was having lost the ability to make decisions. Having lost faith, I just didn't "know" what to do anymore, didn't "know" what I wanted. So I just hung around and didn't decide... would no longer commit to anything more than one evening at a time. I wasn't trying to be vengeful, but no doubt the never ending "maybe" was much more cruel than than a flat out "goodbye" would have been. 2
dichotomy Posted May 5, 2013 Posted May 5, 2013 (edited) Good point! Good thoughts all in your post not just the quote. But your point here, really hits home for me. EA or PA. Either can be devastating. Put the two together and its nuclear. Or is it? What if the EA was stupid infatuation that ended in the light of Dday and the PA was unsatisfying obligatory compliment to the EA? Just a hypothetical. But what if? With my wife's OM - if EA was also PA - it would have been over for me. OM was also an ex, a recent ex, and a nasty worm - who continued to try to get her to continue the sex (he knew of me - but I did not know of him). There was strong emotional glue and sexual history with this OM. I was also upset that she even was with him at all (before me) and might not have married her just knowing he and she were involved. Very specific case for me. Again If I ever find out PA occurred, way back then during EA - I am gone. Also if NC is or was broken I am gone. Thats it. She has burned down any other options for me. If your trying to see how I would respond to your specific case - I can't. Let me add one thing - I tend to look at all issues in affairs - emotions shared, if there was super disrespect, if sex was involved and what type, and regret and shame of the WS. All of these would work together to form a decision on staying or ending the marriage. Also would be factored what I (or you or any BS) would get by staying married for now - home, money, kids, community, and willingness to simply give some time to see how it goes. A powerful statement was made by a gal here - something like "I reserve the right to leave the marriage at any time over this - now or years in the future - and that's my right, my power, and freedom from this betrayal" Yep - I join in that statement. Edited May 5, 2013 by dichotomy
road Posted May 5, 2013 Posted May 5, 2013 Again If I ever find out PA occurred, way back then during EA - I am gone. Also if NC is or was broken I am gone. Thats it. She has burned down any other options for me. Time to schedule a polygraph test. OM do not hang around to just talk.
TheBladeRunner Posted May 5, 2013 Posted May 5, 2013 Not really. Its complicated As I said I was so deeply hurt the first marriage and it changed me. For me - if EA in second marriage was also PA I would not have accepted it. PA mattered to me and it was a deal breaker. This happened during my first marriage as well, it DID change me as well. I did a lot of the same things, in a nutshell, I walked around dazed, confused, and mad at the world for three years. When DDay came for the second marriage, I knew I had to bail. I didn't want to repeat what happened the first time, I just could live with the hope that it may work out.
Author CantgetoveritNY Posted May 5, 2013 Author Posted May 5, 2013 to try to get her to continue the sex (he knew of me - but I did not know of him). There was strong emotional glue and sexual history with this OM. I was also upset that she even was with him at all (before me) Again If I ever find out PA occurred, way back then during EA - I am gone. Also if NC is or was broken I am gone. If your trying to see how I would respond to your specific case - I can't. You are right. This is not specific to my case. But yours is not unique. I can see that your WS having a sexual bond with the AP would be very disturbing and if she crossed that line it would be devastating. A powerful statement was made by a gal here - something like "I reserve the right to leave the marriage at any time over this - now or years in the future - and that's my right, my power, and freedom from this betrayal" Yep - I join in that statement. I agree, 100% 1
Jonah Posted May 6, 2013 Posted May 6, 2013 A powerful statement was made by a gal here - something like "I reserve the right to leave the marriage at any time over this - now or years in the future - and that's my right, my power, and freedom from this betrayal" Yep - I join in that statement. So what? Everyone has that right. What this statement really does is remove whatever thread of commitment there could possibly be and promotes failure.
Author CantgetoveritNY Posted May 6, 2013 Author Posted May 6, 2013 So what? Everyone has that right. What this statement really does is remove whatever thread of commitment there could possibly be and promotes failure. I see your point. But like this morning, I woke up and looked at my wife. I felt like I didn't want to see her. I'm reminded of what she did and I don't want that. There has been no argument, nothing unpleasant. She did nothing to remind me of what happened. She was just there, quiet, beside me. Yet I could hardly stand the thoughts in my head. So I guess I am not committed. Not to anything more than trying one more day. Hoping it eventually gets better but I'm not yet to the point where I don't have doubts about my willingness to keep trying. Regardless of what she does I just might not be able to get over it.
road Posted May 6, 2013 Posted May 6, 2013 I see your point. But like this morning, I woke up and looked at my wife. I felt like I didn't want to see her. I'm reminded of what she did and I don't want that. There has been no argument, nothing unpleasant. She did nothing to remind me of what happened. She was just there, quiet, beside me. Yet I could hardly stand the thoughts in my head. So I guess I am not committed. Not to anything more than trying one more day. Hoping it eventually gets better but I'm not yet to the point where I don't have doubts about my willingness to keep trying. Regardless of what she does I just might not be able to get over it. Recovery is a two to five year job that is more then your WW stops banging the OM. Get the book Surviving An Affair by Dr Harley
Jonah Posted May 6, 2013 Posted May 6, 2013 I see your point. But like this morning, I woke up and looked at my wife. I felt like I didn't want to see her. I'm reminded of what she did and I don't want that. There has been no argument, nothing unpleasant. She did nothing to remind me of what happened. She was just there, quiet, beside me. Yet I could hardly stand the thoughts in my head. So I guess I am not committed. Not to anything more than trying one more day. Hoping it eventually gets better but I'm not yet to the point where I don't have doubts about my willingness to keep trying. Regardless of what she does I just might not be able to get over it. This could go on for a very long time. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with that but just that it is a possibility. I never got over it but have come to be ok with the constant bleeding of my soul. My brother had the same problem. Carried on with his WS for years, intermittently treating her like crap. They sort of drifted apart, decades went by and they are now in their 60s... and though they live apart and both have been through more relationships, she is still the closest thing he has for a mate, and he is for she. And that is exactly the way that they want it right now. He likes living alone and so does she. Why not if you can afford it? Maybe when they get older and can no longer do it alone they will shack back up. With the kids you are already tied to this woman. You could leave but you are still tied. Even after the kids are grown she will be an entity. Is there anything in particular that you are looking for? Any certain emotion that you had but now can't find? Or are you perfectly fine the way things are? Maybe just for today? Is there anything wrong with being ok just for the day? Does this mean that you won't be putting any more money into the house? How long do you think you can go without dropping a large sum of money into a project that would indicate long term future? Mom's day is coming up... is she getting anything?
Author CantgetoveritNY Posted May 6, 2013 Author Posted May 6, 2013 This could go on for a very long time. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with that but just that it is a possibility. I never got over it but have come to be ok with the constant bleeding of my soul. My brother had the same problem. Carried on with his WS for years, intermittently treating her like crap. They sort of drifted apart, decades went by and they are now in their 60s... and though they live apart and both have been through more relationships, she is still the closest thing he has for a mate, and he is for she. And that is exactly the way that they want it right now. He likes living alone and so does she. Why not if you can afford it? Maybe when they get older and can no longer do it alone they will shack back up. With the kids you are already tied to this woman. You could leave but you are still tied. Even after the kids are grown she will be an entity. Is there anything in particular that you are looking for? Any certain emotion that you had but now can't find? Or are you perfectly fine the way things are? Maybe just for today? Is there anything wrong with being ok just for the day? Does this mean that you won't be putting any more money into the house? How long do you think you can go without dropping a large sum of money into a project that would indicate long term future? Mom's day is coming up... is she getting anything? Funny you should say this. I just had IC today. IC asked me, so what would be better about leaving her? You are right, I'm still going to have to see her, for the rest of my life. It is not like I'm going to end that. I may reduce the frequency but I'm still going to see her. And she will be with a new guy of course. So logically I was not thinking it through. We do have investments in the works that would not make sense if we aren't going to stay together. I worry about those but keep moving forward. Then again once in a while something comes up and I think, I'm going to put that thing on hold bc I'm not sure about us. So I vacillate. You ask, what is it that I'm thinking I need that I'm not getting. I guess it is a wife that never cheated. I can't have that. The feeling that this will never happen again. I can't have that either. But I see your point that these things that I want, I am not going to be getting them by leaving her. I just lose her on top of all the other pain I've got. Mother's day, OMG. It is a huge trigger for me. I won't go into details like that on a public board. But it is huge. I've asked her what to do about it and she has not responded.
Jonah Posted May 7, 2013 Posted May 7, 2013 Funny you should say this. I just had IC today. IC asked me, so what would be better about leaving her? You are right, I'm still going to have to see her, for the rest of my life. It is not like I'm going to end that. I may reduce the frequency but I'm still going to see her. And she will be with a new guy of course. So logically I was not thinking it through. We do have investments in the works that would not make sense if we aren't going to stay together. I worry about those but keep moving forward. Then again once in a while something comes up and I think, I'm going to put that thing on hold bc I'm not sure about us. So I vacillate. You ask, what is it that I'm thinking I need that I'm not getting. I guess it is a wife that never cheated. I can't have that. The feeling that this will never happen again. I can't have that either. But I see your point that these things that I want, I am not going to be getting them by leaving her. I just lose her on top of all the other pain I've got. Mother's day, OMG. It is a huge trigger for me. I won't go into details like that on a public board. But it is huge. I've asked her what to do about it and she has not responded. If what you want is a wife that never cheated, you could have that. Just imagine what qualities you are looking for, make a goal and set out to get it. Beware of having to deal with other peoples kids though. You are staying for now. How much of your staying has to do with your not wanting to hurt your W? It's my bet that she wants it back the way it was before... is that what you want too? Could it be that you both want the same thing? One thing to keep in mind if you keep hanging... Alimony obligations set in like concrete... the longer you are married the harder the payments. Be careful... time goes by. You sandbag this for too long, being half in half out, ten years go by and the wheels come off anyway and you are stuck with permanent payments. Might want to set yourself a deadline to decide and then... decide. Much better chance for success if you are all in. Or all out. For Mothers day -> quote paperangel on notcamelots thread: "Can you try to plan something special to help overwrite the history of that day?" Hey, you said that you liked that thought! I do too! 1
ver13 Posted May 7, 2013 Posted May 7, 2013 I see your point. But like this morning, I woke up and looked at my wife. I felt like I didn't want to see her. I'm reminded of what she did and I don't want that. There has been no argument, nothing unpleasant. She did nothing to remind me of what happened. She was just there, quiet, beside me. Yet I could hardly stand the thoughts in my head. So I guess I am not committed. Not to anything more than trying one more day. Hoping it eventually gets better but I'm not yet to the point where I don't have doubts about my willingness to keep trying. Regardless of what she does I just might not be able to get over it. Out of all the things that you have written about this sums it up to what it's all about. One more day - EA/PA whatever happened you decided to stay for one more day and here you are. All you can do is live in this moment so live in it. Of course you wake up sometimes shake your head an say why am I still here with this woman. Why wouldn't you given what has happened in your M. The thing that matters is what the content of your M is like today. There is no getting over it all you can do is leave it whether you want to or not that's where all the drama is, behind you. There are no varying degrees of which one of these failure of character issues is worst then the other. They are equal in that they come from the same place selfish disrespectfull behavior toward someone that you claim that you love. The question now is do you both have the capacity to get beyond that moment and live in this one as honest and straight forward as you can. 1
BeholdtheMan Posted May 7, 2013 Posted May 7, 2013 Yet I read a lot here from people that feel the EA was just as bad as a full blow PA. Makes no difference to them that it was just an EA.Betrayal is betrayal. If you want to stay in your marriage, stay for the rights reasons. Don't use "the affair was only emotional" as an excuse to justify your own weakness. How do you know if you're staying out of your own weakness? Ask yourself this: If numerous attractive members of the opposite sex were interested in me right now, would I stay with my wayward spouse...or would I seek a partner who has never betrayed me before? Finally, how would you know whether the affair was only emotional? "It was only emotional" is a common lie wayward spouses try to feed their betrayed spouses. It's called minimising damage. Unless you have hard evidence that the affair was only emotional (highly unlikely), you'll never be certain of the truth.
dichotomy Posted May 7, 2013 Posted May 7, 2013 Out of all the things that you have written about this sums it up to what it's all about. One more day - EA/PA whatever happened you decided to stay for one more day and here you are. All you can do is live in this moment so live in it. Of course you wake up sometimes shake your head an say why am I still here with this woman. Why wouldn't you given what has happened in your M. The thing that matters is what the content of your M is like today. There is no getting over it all you can do is leave it whether you want to or not that's where all the drama is, behind you. There are no varying degrees of which one of these failure of character issues is worst then the other. They are equal in that they come from the same place selfish disrespectfull behavior toward someone that you claim that you love. The question now is do you both have the capacity to get beyond that moment and live in this one as honest and straight forward as you can. This is very insightful. I would only add that the decision to stay married involves a LOT more than how I feel about my wife at any given time (or time frame)
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