Author waterwoman Posted May 1, 2013 Author Posted May 1, 2013 Jadore - I am as sure as I can be he didn't have sex with her. But to a great extent I don't really care- the real betrayal was the emotional connection and that is what hurts most. My issue has been until recently whether he was with me out of fear and guilt or love. I am more or less reassured about that. There are still doubts of course. And I still get spikes of anger about it all.
CantgetoveritNY Posted May 1, 2013 Posted May 1, 2013 Xmm told a version of this to his wife. I'm sorry but ww, I think when a man spouts off these stupid denials, they freaking know it's a lie or else they have fallen so far down the rabbit hole, they believe their own lies. An affair, requires a scary number of lies for it to carry on, I suspect that once x number are told, it becomes hard to know what is fact and what is fiction and it's difficult to keep in straight in their own head as to which lie they told to which woman. I spent a month in cohorts with the BS in my situation, keeping him in the dark that we were on to him:D, (by this time they really were separated) and it was very enlightening to sit right beside him and know without a shadow of a doubt that what came out of his mouth was a lie. It certainly helped me come to grips with what was the real deal and that he was a pathetic lying con man to both women. Gently I say this.........I'm sorry but the big shock to him on d day wasn't that he was lying to himself, it was that he was caught in an affair. He lied to minimize it to you and to himself because he didn't want to eat his own **** sandwich. I have to disagree. I think there are people who really draw the line at intercourse. That don't think anything short of intercourse is an affair. They exist and they are not faking it. It is a well known point of view. One I would disagree with (now) and not accept in my relationship (now) but that doesn't mean this OP's WS was lying to her about his thoughts on the subject. I'm a BS and I thought (before PA Dday) that my WS's EA was not a real affair. I'm glad for the OP that her H realised he had a flawed point of view (as did I) but I tend to believe he held that point of view at that time. 2
Author waterwoman Posted May 1, 2013 Author Posted May 1, 2013 Xmm told a version of this to his wife. I'm sorry but ww, I think when a man spouts off these stupid denials, they freaking know it's a lie or else they have fallen so far down the rabbit hole, they believe their own lies. An affair, requires a scary number of lies for it to carry on, I suspect that once x number are told, it becomes hard to know what is fact and what is fiction and it's difficult to keep in straight in their own head as to which lie they told to which woman. I spent a month in cohorts with the BS in my situation, keeping him in the dark that we were on to him:D, (by this time they really were separated) and it was very enlightening to sit right beside him and know without a shadow of a doubt that what came out of his mouth was a lie. It certainly helped me come to grips with what was the real deal and that he was a pathetic lying con man to both women. Gently I say this.........I'm sorry but the big shock to him on d day wasn't that he was lying to himself, it was that he was caught in an affair. He lied to minimize it to you and to himself because he didn't want to eat his own **** sandwich. Oh the big shock was being found out no doubt about it! Part of that was the horrible realisation that, yes, you are not a kisa, you are a lying cheating ****! And contrary to what you told yourself, I do care, I am devastated, furious, sick to my stomach, confused and your little DID is an ordinary cheating wife, and your grand chivalrous romance is just a rather petty sordid AFFAIR. Daylight can be quite harsh. In other words the pretty fantasies that made it all possible faded away like smoke in the wind. It was a bracingly cold wind at that. 1
dichotomy Posted May 1, 2013 Posted May 1, 2013 (edited) I think perhaps people can't get their mind around how damaging or hurtful an EA might get. Perhaps it could be a simple as mutual attraction - ego boost - or support and some physical interest and longing. It might be simple stupid crush or infatuation. It could be an old flame that some how keeps your attention, Or perhaps there is deep sharing of intimate details of the BS - their sexual abilities/parts, their fears/failures/weakness, childhood abuses, medical or emotional issues, sexual fantasies or fears, parental issues, financial information, etc......deep personal information can be shared with OM/OW. OM/OM may know things about you - that you only shared with your WS and no one else. EA could be degrading of you as a person or that they indeed do not love you or are not attracted to you, that you don't measure up. Then -there are also many stories of EA's involving people that were close to BS or BS spent time with OW/OM without knowing what was happening. Hanging out with them clueless. Ya - EA's can be extremely disrespectful and hurtful. Even a ONS may not be as intimate or hurtful. Edited May 1, 2013 by dichotomy 2
Jonah Posted May 1, 2013 Posted May 1, 2013 Is that all this was? An ea and you've made all this fuss! geesh! They should have a whiner board on this thing! your poor BS! No wonder he didn't know! "I did not have sex with that woman" -BC
HappyAtLast Posted May 1, 2013 Posted May 1, 2013 As a man, for me personally, an inappropriate relationship is an inappropriate relationship (that is not to say that many years later I did not make a conscious decision to have one myself, because I absolutely did). I hold someone accountable for each step they take (including myself). A person knows that it is inappropriate to spend time alone with someone who is not their spouse. A person knows that it is inappropriate to share intimacies, stories about their day, feelings, etc., with someone who is not their spouse. A person knows that most forms of physical contact with someone who is not their spouse is inappropriate. PEOPLE KNOW THIS. MEN KNOW THIS. Each step that someone takes towards a extra-marital affair is a decision point, in my mind. At each step someone makes the conscious decision to continue to go further, despite the potential consequences. Whether someone admits it or not, they know. 2
Mr. Lucky Posted May 1, 2013 Posted May 1, 2013 When she first met the eventual AP, she was not at all interested in an A. She loved the attention he gave her but when he made a move on her she was infuriated. She stopped all contact with him for more than a month. (This was confirmed post DDay by emails and texts) Eventually she let herself be sucked back in. First just a few friendly texts. Then get togethers. He continued to press for physical stuff. She gave in bit by bit. The slippery slope. When she eventually gave in all the way she told me her thought process was that she had to do that to keep his interest and attention but that she did not want to do it. So b/c she did not want to do it, then it was not really relevant to our marriage. She said she also figured that unless she had an orgasm it should not matter. And she was certain she would not with the AP. Our sex was always going to be the "real" sex in her life so this thing with her AP was just a nothing. She said these thoughts came to her as she was giving in and that the thoughts only lasted about as long as the sex. That almost immediately upon being done she realize it was relevant and that she had just become an AP. CantgetoveritNY, first let me say I understand that the process is different for each BS. But down the road from D Day, do you accept the above as the "truth" or as "the truth from her perspective" ??? There seems to be an awful lot of spin and nuance involved. The difference between the two versions of the truth is what ultimately ended my marriage... Mr. Lucky
ladydesigner Posted May 1, 2013 Posted May 1, 2013 On DDay my WH wouldn't even admit it was an EA. He said they kissed 2 times . In my WH's case his lies unfolded because I became such a great super sleuth and discovered to my my surprise (NOT!) that his EA, that he was denying, had actually been a full blown EA/PA with his employee Today he says my A (his) and your A (mine). We both own it. We did it. I'm not sure if they are actually that stupid or just acting stupid when they say these things. Of course there is the factor that they don't want to look bad.
CantgetoveritNY Posted May 1, 2013 Posted May 1, 2013 CantgetoveritNY, first let me say I understand that the process is different for each BS. But down the road from D Day, do you accept the above as the "truth" or as "the truth from her perspective" ??? There seems to be an awful lot of spin and nuance involved. The difference between the two versions of the truth is what ultimately ended my marriage... Mr. Lucky Thanks for your insight. I do see some of it as spin. Conscious and unconscious. And for a short time after Dday her story was different. More hurtful. Probably so spin in the oposite direction while she was still in the A fog. But much of what I wrote was collaborated by text and emails that I found post Dday. I was oblivious before Dday so they were careless with text and email. Can you tell me more about what you mean when you say, "The difference between the two versions of the truth is what ultimately ended my marriage..." I'm not at all sure about my WW or our marriage and our attempt at recon. I really hope it works but realistically I am understand it might not. What happend to you?
Jonah Posted May 2, 2013 Posted May 2, 2013 As a man, for me personally, an inappropriate relationship is an inappropriate relationship (that is not to say that many years later I did not make a conscious decision to have one myself, because I absolutely did). I hold someone accountable for each step they take (including myself). A person knows that it is inappropriate to spend time alone with someone who is not their spouse. A person knows that it is inappropriate to share intimacies, stories about their day, feelings, etc., with someone who is not their spouse. A person knows that most forms of physical contact with someone who is not their spouse is inappropriate. PEOPLE KNOW THIS. MEN KNOW THIS. Each step that someone takes towards a extra-marital affair is a decision point, in my mind. At each step someone makes the conscious decision to continue to go further, despite the potential consequences. Whether someone admits it or not, they know. Well written. This post touched me.
Mr. Lucky Posted May 2, 2013 Posted May 2, 2013 Can you tell me more about what you mean when you say, "The difference between the two versions of the truth is what ultimately ended my marriage..." I'm not at all sure about my WW or our marriage and our attempt at recon. I really hope it works but realistically I am understand it might not. What happend to you? My xWW's story was very similar to yours. The OM pursued her, she gave in gradually. She valued his friendship and attention (which I admittedly wasn't giving her) and so reluctantly slept with him to keep the relationship intact. Add this up, and post D Day she felt her semi-unwilling participation in the affair should give her some protection against my anger. As though hearing "the sex wasn't that good" or "I didn't really want to do it" was supposed to make me feel better. It didn't and we separated and divorced. My version of the truth was simply that she'd cheated on our marriage. Her version of the truth was filled with words that end in "ly" - reluctantly, unwillingly, unenthusiastically, unknowingly, regretfully, etc. We were never able to bridge the gap between the two... Mr. Lucky 1
seren Posted May 2, 2013 Posted May 2, 2013 My personal rule is that if I cannot and do not feel able to do and say anything to your face, then I have no business doing them behind your back. Anyone that tells themselves they are protecting you, saving you from hurt or any other reason (I call it excuses) is just justifying what they know is wrongful behaviour to make themselves feel better about doing so. A few weks ago, my exXH contacted me on FB, I live near to where his family are buried, he is some 700 miles away, he asked if I would put some flowers on the grave as he didn't get here too often, he said he would reimburse me the money. That was the extent of the mesage, that and a wishing me and mine well. For a whole day I didn't tell my H as I thought he wouldn't like it, then took myself to task as I was in danger of breaking my personal rule. I told H, who wasn't too pleased that exXH has contacted me, but once we ironed it out that it was just flowers and that WE would do it. he agreed, on the proviso that the money went to a local children's hospice. Job done, exX contacted and told yes we would do it, then told no, we don't want to friend you, but all the best anyway. I said to H that had I not told him, it might have resulted in a lot of sneaking off, with me putting flowers and not telling him, of exX messaging me to say thanks and a whole world of deceit opened up. Not an A, but an example of how talking the talk without walking the walk can be so easily justifed. A's however, no justification for those at all, how people keep them up is beyond me, not telling H about the message all but gave me ulcers!! 6
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