I never thought I was having an affair

[waterwoman]

H told me last night.

 

It was a real shock to him when I called it that after dday. Brought him down to earth with a thump.

 

He said he thought he was just very close friends. Apart from the kissing and touching that is ... And the fact he diodn't tell me about this 'friendship'. I guess if they had sex it would have been clear to him that an affair is what it was! And I have little doubt that is what would have happened if it had carried on longer.

 

Anyone else has experience of this delusion? Is this how affairs develop without any intention on either part to be involved in one?

[ComingInHot]

My fWH tried to down play everything too and they Did have sex ... At first he said although he Knew it was an A, it wasn't a big deal because he never said ILY to her (because he honestly didn't). ...ahhh No. Still an A buddy. Then he said the reason he sex'd her was because She wanted it and he just really didn't want to lose her friendship. Let me think... No Again pal.

 

When the consequences finally hit home about Eight months later, and he saw the reality and damage of his actions and experienced remorse and regret & exOW showed her true colors, H saw that He had been attempting to down play the A because in his mind, he would Never do such a horrid thing.

 

He was literally believing a ton of his own lies, justifications and excuses so he wouldn't have to admit to himself that he had become the very monster he hated and put down about other peoples A's.

[waterwoman]

I didn't 'catch them' doing anything nervis.

[Sadwife37]

I experienced exactly the same thing. And my H had the same bizarre thought process.

 

On DDay, when the A was out there and couldn't possibly be denied and hide, all the details finally started to come out. In January 2009 my H started a friendly relationship with a woman. The gradually had more and more contact. All over the phone and email. After about 3-4 months in he started deleting the call history and emails because he says he though I would not like him having a close female friendship that I wasn't involved in. He felt it crossed a line - wasn't honest, but he liked the relationship and wanted it to continue, but he did not feel he was having an A. It progressed over 2 years. Became a daily call when they each got to work in the morning and brief emails during the days. It moved from what he describes as 100% friendly exchanges to becoming more intimate. Emailing I miss you while away on vacation, saying she was beautiful. It became a lot more emotional as it progressed. They were there to turn too. They supported each other. They let a relationship develop when the opportunity should never have been there. 2 years after they started this my H and I were going through a very stressful time. We were building a house. There were huge delays, massive overage costs, a granite contractor took our $15,000 and then went bankrupt, we had sold our house and had to find a rental for 2 months due to the delays, etc. There was huge stress at home and she was there for him. I have no idea what might have been happening in her life. They started talking about possible having sex, One day she said her H was away and she would like to see my H. He went to her home after lunch from work and they had sex. They did this 2 more times during a 2-3 week period. Then the relationship changed and the phone calls and emails became like girlfriend-boyfriend. There was no more sex because they talked about it and said neither was looking for another relationship. They said the sex was too far and should not have happened so they would go back to being "friends". For almost 9 more months the daily calls and emails continued. Until I found out. H believed he had a 3 week A. He justified all the other contact as "special friends". He knew he was lying and not being honest but didn't see it as an AE. He said what he felt for her was like a friend and not love or commitment and it could have stopped anytime. since he wasn't considering leaving me for her, he could call it a friend. He now does see it as an A, and understands why for me this was clearly a 3 year A. I believe it was a way to minimize his behaviour so he could live with himself.

[waterwoman]

Sorry, I must have been confused by your dday reference. So he came to you out of the blue with remorse and said "I'm having an inappropriate affair with X and want to come clean"? How did you find out about the "kissing and touching"? I'm not trying to fight you. I'm relating what I've been reading for years. Maybe if you can explain how dday went down... I'm guessing he hasn't admitted to anything you didn't already know, am I correct?

 

He's lying to you about not knowing it was an affair. So the lying ends there?

 

Well, you're probably better off this way. Denial, after all, is a survival function that had been bred into us for a reason.

 

Good luck.

 

NP

 

Not in denial. Not that interested in your dissection of my relationship TBH. He admitted a great deal that I didn't and couldn't know but if you really are that concerned I am sure you can find the details if you wish to search.

[waterwoman]

Get over that fast and deal with the fact that your men strayed. Who cares what they labeled it.

 

.

 

Well, quite. I don't care what he calls it. He could call it hoopla or french cricket if he wished. Doesn't change what it is. I just thought it was interesting that he didn't see it with that label on until I pointed it out (assuming he isn't lying of course nervis )

 

By the way I have not been a 'gal' for very many years..... And right now some good strong coffee is getting me through the day.

[dichotomy]

It is a long story, but my wife still hates and refuses to fully agree when I say she was having an emotional "affair" with her ex while with me. Best I have got so far is "it was inappropriate and I agreed to demand for NC". Fortunately our therapist does not cut her much slack on this.

[underwater2010]

Yep....he was chatting and sexting mostly. One met up with a makeout session. Clothes still on thank god. He specifically said he never cheated on me during our first messages on facebook. It took me asking how he would feel if the shoe was on the other foot. That is when it hit him.

 

So we have a new rule of thumb. If it is something you would not tell or do in front of your spouse then you are doing something your not supposed to. And porn is okay only if they are strangers and no chatting or videos. Any new friends on facebook should be explained and should not befriend someone unless you/they are willing to be introduced to your spouse.

 

I know not all of the rules will prevent another affair, but they help establish boundaries on both are parts.

[2sure]

H told me last night.

 

It was a real shock to him when I called it that after dday. Brought him down to earth with a thump.

 

He said he thought he was just very close friends. Apart from the kissing and touching that is ... And the fact he diodn't tell me about this 'friendship'. I guess if they had sex it would have been clear to him that an affair is what it was! And I have little doubt that is what would have happened if it had carried on longer.

 

Anyone else has experience of this delusion? Is this how affairs develop without any intention on either part to be involved in one?

 

Oh, I had various conversations of this same sort with my ex many times. To be honest, I find this line another justification or excuse , and it's a red flag.

Affair, fling, friend with benefits....call it whatever you like and it's the same thing. Wrong, violating.

 

With all the progress you've had, please don't let him sell you this. It's saying "I'm accountable BUT"

 

I posted recently that when a man , or WS, hears us say something or accuse them of something they don't like...they claim they don't/ didn't understand.

 

So, having patience and empathy we repeat it, with more and different words.

Ohhhhh. I see. Now that you've talked slower I understand, I didn't before, that's why I did it.

 

No. Does he drive a car? Ever held a job? Ever had a friend?

 

He knew.

[underwater2010]

You gals are all fixating it on the "affair" label. OK. Maybe your hubby's wouldn't have officially put the "affair" label on it, but that's what it was and they knew it was just as inappropriate. You all seem to want to downplay it to a lower level of infidelity just because they tagged it as "special secret inappropriate friendship" instead of the much worse "affair".

 

Get over that fast and deal with the fact that your men strayed. Who cares what they labeled it.

 

But hey, whatever gets you through the day.

Just so you know....the people that have responded so far KNOW that their spouse was cheating and KNOW that their spouse was aware what they were doing was wrong. Hence the hidden behavior and lies.

 

And most of us realize that the WS does not admit to everything. Hell I even figure that WH and his MOW probably had oral sex, even though he did not admit to it. But the interesting part in my story is that she was a bragger in email. There were many emails about scheduling meet ups but they always feel through. She also accused him of giving plenty of lip services but not being able to follow through.

 

NOBODY is downplaying or excusing the affair. I think a lot of us are just trying to wrap are heads around the behavior. So please relax.

[dichotomy]

You gals are all fixating it on the "affair" label. OK. Maybe your hubby's wouldn't have officially put the "affair" label on it, but that's what it was and they knew it was just as inappropriate. You all seem to want to downplay it to a lower level of infidelity just because they tagged it as "special secret inappropriate friendship" instead of the much worse "affair".

 

Get over that fast and deal with the fact that your men strayed. Who cares what they labeled it.

 

But hey, whatever gets you through the day.

 

I am guy. It matters to me, what the WS labels it, for accountability sake. WS seen to deny and minimize and using less severe terms, because they don't want to admit and take full responsibility for it.

 

Too long a story but when my wife started using the right labels/terms for her past "mistakes", it was a huge relief and I (we) were able to move to the next step. This is not unlike any 12 step or recovery process - you need to stand up and own the name of your issue - because everyone else there knows it - but you need to know it.

[Sadwife37]

NervisPervis - I again read the posts here and I totally disagree with you. No BS is downplaying the A. The WS's may have attempted to downplay the A but the BS's caught on any did not let that happen. Absolutely nothing has been minimized about this is my home. My H has been held accountable for his actions, his lies, his betrayal and The reality of his A will follow him for the rest of his life.

[underwater2010]

I'm WAY more caught up in this than I intended to be. I'm on ALL of your sides. I am just one guy saying that a man that has ANY physical intimacy with a woman he is keeping from his wife KNOWS he is in an affair. Non-physical? Yes, A guy could misconstrue that as "inappropriate" but not an "affair". As soon as they kiss or touch naughty parts in ANY way, it is an affair in ANY guys mind. To say anything else is a lie.

 

I'm out. Sorry I caused so much trouble, but I thought you may want a peek into a man's mind on this one.

Thank for clarifying. We always appreciate any insight.

[Snowflower]

Ladies, what I see a little of in this thread is you trying trying to rationalize your husband's affair. I'm not talking about what your H thought--because obviously we all know that he had his head shoved up somewhere.

 

But I see some of you trying to rationalize what he did in your mind and heart. I recognize it because I did the same thing. For years.

 

I mean this so very kindly, I really do. Most of you know that I am/was a BW too.

 

Do not begin to try to rationalize that what he did was somehow not as bad. Because it was. I see you trying to explain to yourselves the unexplainable. Oh, I completely understand that you are trying to understand what was going through his head as he took those steps. And the discussions you have are vital to moving on.

 

But recognize his explanations (notice I don't say excuses because I believe there is a difference) will never make what he did okay.

 

The sooner you get to that point, the stronger you will become and the more thoroughly you will heal. For you. Not him.

[Decorative]

H told me last night.

 

It was a real shock to him when I called it that after dday. Brought him down to earth with a thump.

 

He said he thought he was just very close friends. Apart from the kissing and touching that is ... And the fact he diodn't tell me about this 'friendship'. I guess if they had sex it would have been clear to him that an affair is what it was! And I have little doubt that is what would have happened if it had carried on longer.

 

Anyone else has experience of this delusion? Is this how affairs develop without any intention on either part to be involved in one?

 

I would have walked out and never looked back, had my spouse not owned it was an affair. He's not a dumb man. He knew it was wrong, and he knew it was an affair.

 

I suspect your spouse did as well. I would assume- as many waywards do when caught- he was attempting to see what you knew, or if he could spin you.

[waterwoman]

I suspect your spouse did as well. I would assume- as many waywards do when caught- he was attempting to see what you knew, or if he could spin you.

 

He knew it was wrong. What label he chose to put on it is irrelevant.

 

BTW he didn't say that to me then. He only told me this recently when I know what there is to know. I remember seeing him wince a few times when I callled it an affair after d-day.

[Snowflower]

NervisPervis - I again read the posts here and I totally disagree with you. No BS is downplaying the A. The WS's may have attempted to downplay the A but the BS's caught on any did not let that happen. Absolutely nothing has been minimized about this is my home. My H has been held accountable for his actions, his lies, his betrayal and The reality of his A will follow him for the rest of his life.

 

Sadwife, this is a little bit of what I am trying to get at and I'm not calling you out, please believe me. I hope I am not overstepping my bounds as I say this. Remember, I am a BW.

 

I totally believe that you are holding his feet to the fire, so to speak. You are holding him accountable for his choices, I totally get that.

 

What I think you might be doing, because I recognize it from my own experience, I did the same thing, is that you are trying to somehow rationalize to YOURSELF what he did. Again, I'm in a way not talking about him, at least not directly, I'm talking about you processing this.

 

Please, no BW should attempt to rationalize their husband's behavior to themselves. I did it and it impeded my healing. At least think about what I am saying. I wish someone had grabbed me by the shoulders at some point and said, "Snowflower! Quit excusing him to your heart!"

[underwater2010]

God, please help me get away from this thread.

 

THAT IS A LIE!!! He didn't think it was cheating when he was sucking her tongue? That is BS. It is downplaying and minimizing. That's ALL I'M SAYING. All of you. As soon as it got physical in ANY WAY, he knew it was adultery. He either fesses up or there is no R. This is like saying I can go to bars and make out with as many women as I want, knowing that when I'm caught I can play the "I just didn't know" card.

 

I hope I'm out now.

Okay....I was trying to clarify the point of this thread to you. But you seem to think that you need to reinforce the point that we were lied to and that they knew what they were doing was wrong.

 

WE KNOW THAT. Once the devastation wears off, we end up finding it funny that they are delusional enough to justify that the affair was just a friendship. And yes most of that are reconciling with our spouse do get them to admit it was an affair. It just takes a little more time for some and not much for others.

 

Just to clarify NO ONE excepts that excuse. In fact if the WS is unable to acknowledge the affair they end up divorced.

[CantgetoveritNY]

I agree that Nervis seems to be missing the point. I for one appreciate this opportunity to tell my similar experience. To vent. I'm not saying my WW deserves any slack or gets any but....

 

When she first met the eventual AP, she was not at all interested in an A. She loved the attention he gave her but when he made a move on her she was infuriated. She stopped all contact with him for more than a month. (This was confirmed post DDay by emails and texts) Eventually she let herself be sucked back in. First just a few friendly texts. Then get togethers. He continued to press for physical stuff. She gave in bit by bit. The slippery slope. When she eventually gave in all the way she told me her thought process was that she had to do that to keep his interest and attention but that she did not want to do it. So b/c she did not want to do it, then it was not really relevant to our marriage. She said she also figured that unless she had an orgasm it should not matter. And she was certain she would not with the AP. Our sex was always going to be the "real" sex in her life so this thing with her AP was just a nothing. She said these thoughts came to her as she was giving in and that the thoughts only lasted about as long as the sex. That almost immediately upon being done she realize it was relevant and that she had just become an AP.

 

God I feel so sick thinking about this. But I do appreciate being able to talk about it.

[underwater2010]

Okay....I was trying to clarify the point of this thread to you. But you seem to think that you need to reinforce the point that we were lied to and that they knew what they were doing was wrong.

 

WE KNOW THAT. Once the devastation wears off, we end up finding it funny that they are delusional enough to justify that the affair was just a friendship. And yes most of that are reconciling with our spouse do get them to admit it was an affair. It just takes a little more time for some and not much for others.

 

Just to clarify NO ONE excepts that excuse. In fact if the WS is unable to acknowledge the affair they end up divorced.

I am definitely not excusing my FWH in anyway, shape or form. I am just responding to let her know that yes I heard the same thing on DDay. And that yes he acknowledged the true nature of the beast. That she experienced the normal "smoke and mirrors" trick that almost all WSs present upon DDay. That does not make it right, nor does it provide a "rationalization" of the affair. It is just a behavior.

 

But anyone that truly wants to reconcile with their WS, needs to examine the behavior and lack of character that lead to the affair. For a BS not to acknowledge any cracks in the marriage is to bury their head and think that because the WS was busted once and held accountable would keep them from another affair. It also keeps one from noticing any future behavior that could signal a second affair.

[JourneyLady]

I think... the source of the misunderstanding in this thread is that Nevis asked what the WS said about the affair, not whether the BS believed it or not.

 

So then the BS tell the tales of what their WS "said" about it, and Nervis feels it necessary to point out that those things are not to be believed. A fact which the BS's already know.

 

It would help if questions were worded exactly the way they are meant, rather than people getting off on the wrong track. I think there is more agreement here than disagreement, because I think everyone in this thread knows that WS's justifications are not based in reality!

 

ie. If you have to hide it, it's wrong.

[CantgetoveritNY]

 

I think what some men have trouble with is understanding that even when it was just an inappropriate friendship, before the sex took place, that part is just as hurtful and damaging to the marriage. Some men don't understand that betraying your partner emotionally is just as bad as betraying them physically.

 

I agree with this totally. I found out about my WW's inappropriate friendship and was hurt, but since she convinced me it was not physical, I felt like I could do nothing but wait till it did become physical. I felt like I would be over reacting to divorce her before it was physical. I feel like such an idiot now. I wish i'd talked to someone or found this site back before she let it get physical. Heck just saying that indicates how different guys are. I still think I'd feel a whole lot different about my WW and our chances of recon if it was just an emotional affair. Just an EA. Like that isn't bad enough but yes, guys think like that.

[Sadwife37]

Snowflower, I wasn't going to bother trying to respond since I don't know what to say.... But here goes:

this is part of what you had said:

 

What I think you might be doing, because I recognize it from my own experience, I did the same thing, is that you are trying to somehow rationalize to YOURSELF what he did. Again, I'm in a way not talking about him, at least not directly, I'm talking about you processing this.

 

To rationalize something means to justify it or excuse it. To come up with a reason to feel he was justified in having the affair??? To think, okay, it wasn't really that bad??? He may have done this during the entire affair. Minimized it, made excuses, tried to believe it wasn't as bad as it was. I did not, and do not do that.

 

I think he was a lying sack of sh**. He disrespected me, my children and his entire family, His actions and behaviours were disgusting, insulting, mean, and Absolutely inexcusable. He put zero work into our relationship and when things got tough he turned to someone else. Totally inexcusable and not justifiable. I don't even believe he deserves a second chance. He deserves to lose his family and lose all the experiences that comes with having a family. I am trying to R for my children. So they have an intact family. I am trying to learn to live with the fact that he thought so little of me he could lie to my face for three years. During every phone call, every email, and every trip to his "girlfriends" house he showed her that she was more important than me. There is no possible way for me to rationalize this betrayal. It can't be minimized, it can't be excused and it can not be justified.

[Snowflower]

 

I think he was a lying sack of sh**. He disrespected me, my children and his entire family, His actions and behaviours were disgusting, insulting, mean, and Absolutely inexcusable. He put zero work into our relationship and when things got tough he turned to someone else. Totally inexcusable and not justifiable. I don't even believe he deserves a second chance. He deserves to lose his family and lose all the experiences that comes with having a family. I am trying to R for my children. So they have an intact family. I am trying to learn to live with the fact that he thought so little of me he could lie to my face for three years. During every phone call, every email, and every trip to his "girlfriends" house he showed her that she was more important than me. There is no possible way for me to rationalize this betrayal. It can't be minimized, it can't be excused and it can not be justified.

 

Sadwife, good! Thank you for taking the time to respond. I am so glad you feel this way because my concern is for the BS.

 

My point was to the thread topic at hand. Sometimes BS get so caught up in trying to "understand" why their WS did what they did and try to understand how their WS ignored all the stop signs and kept going to the point that they try to "rationalize" their WS's actions.

 

Sadwife, I'm not saying you did this. It was just that your post that I responded seemed to maybe exemplify this type of thinking.

 

For you Sadwife, it is clear you do not feel that way. But maybe there are some BS who do feel that their WS's explanations make some type of "sense."

 

I'm sorry if I upset you. I didn't intend to. I know all too well how much all this s*cks.

 

My concern is only for the BS so that they can get to a healthy place in their healing.

[dichotomy]

I am five years with MM and his BS knows but I can tell you, he has probably lied that much in the past to her (or me) he sometimes does not know what really happened and I have to remind him. I think he gets stuck sometimes on what he told her, then actually believes his own lies.

.

 

 

I think you make an interesting point. Sometimes, this far out, I feel my WS can no longer accurately remember what she did/said in the past, or gets confused past lies for truth, or simply does not wish to remember the worst parts. I have no doubt there is much more than happened or was said - that she won't allow her self to remember, or remembers differently to make it easier on herself. Unfortunately what I do know (from emails) is burned into my brain. I end up correcting her in therapy. I have wracked myself sick wishing to know it all, 100% facts and details, but it aint going happen..

Edited May 1, 2013 by dichotomy