When Is a Marriage Over?

[liswil]

How do you know when your relationship is over?

What if there is no intimacy or affection and you've discussed it but nothing changes?

 

Do you think it's wise to stay together for the kids?

[will_woman]

for myself, I know it's over when I see that my husband (going to be ex) to be so insistent on getting the divorce. This explains everything.

 

Whether to stay together for kids, I suppose it's depend on individual.

I have seen couples doing that but they are seeing another persons outside. Is this healthy....i think onlt they can answer.

 

Maybe everyone have to be strong and cut themselves away from the "stale" relatinship and pursue some other things

[Haunani]

It's so difficult to see this title.....I ask myself that question over and over. I know I'm tired of living together and *pretending*, it's all hunky dory, it's not. I wish there were some kind of *slap upside the head* when you know the time has come.

 

As for the kids, sometimes they know things are amiss and the environment will be better spent with one happy person, than 2 sad/unhappy ones. But to take that leap into the unknown is so terribly frightening.

 

I feel your pain., and want you to know you are not alone.

[twistedtexan]

I liked this:

 

"You know you're ready for a divorce when you can walk out the door with no anger, frustration or hurt. Otherwise, you've got unfinished business," says Dr. Phil. "Unless and until you look each other in the eye feeling peace, no hatred or resentment, you're not ready to get a divorce.

 

So ask yourself that.."

[Moose]

Never.

 

Why can't anyone understand what a marriage is??? This frustrates the you know what out of me. Marriage is a holy covenant made by God. Not by man. No man can end a marriage. Even if you have the divorce papers, and the decree of rules and regulations that man decided you should follow, you're not, "Unmarried".

 

Sure, many Christians get divorces. But if they remarry, Jesus says they're committing adultry. Read Matthew Chapter 10 verses 2-12 and you'll see what I mean.

 

A marriage is never over per say, because NO MAN, can end something that God began.

[izzybelle]

ok.... guess i'm going straight to he**. quick note on that then back to the topic. the god i believe in isn't quite so unforgiving and well....i'd like to think that people deserve happiness. everyone believes something different and well... that's what i believe.

 

anyway, i knew my marriage was over when i realized what an awful person and mother i was becoming when i was around him. i didn't want to be in the house, didn't want to be near him, didn't want to talk to him. it was slowly sucking the life out of me and i didn't like the person i felt i was turning into. there was not one part of me that was even a little bit in love with him anymore. it was an incredibly painful decision and one that took me way, way too long to get the courage to make. i kept waiting for the "right" time, the kids to be a little older, the finances to get straightened out, it always felt like it was something. then one night, i finally had had enough and asked for the divorce. it felt like someone had just pulled a large boulder out of my stomach. i was nervous as he** about what was to come for my kids and for me, but the relief i felt outweighed the fear.

 

i think for everyone it's different. and it is a tough decision and it's so, so easy to keep 2nd guessing yourself. you kill yourself over and over again with the "what ifs." what if i try harder, what if i can just get him to change this or that, what if i'm alone for the rest of my life.....

as a friend of mine listened to me complain one day about all the crap that was going on before i asked for the divorce he asked me one simple question.... if i woke up the next morning and all the things that bothered me about my H changed, would i feel like i could fall back in love with him? my answer was no, it wasn't the things he did that made me not love him, i just didn't love him...don't know if that makes sense.

 

the divorce was painful but now almost 3 years later.... i have to say that i wish i'd had the courage to end things 5-6 years ago when i first started feeling that way.

 

just remember, everyone is different and every situation is different and each relationship is different. just don't be afraid to look deep into yourself and be willing to admit that you need to give up or give in for your sake and your spouses. nobody deserves to have to live their life unhappy. my H was upset when i asked but hmmmmm like i said it's not quite 3 years and he's getting remarried next year.... he's happy, i'm happy and my kids are happy!

[Breathe]

You know you're ready for a divorce when you can walk out the door with no anger, frustration or hurt. Otherwise, you've got unfinished business," says Dr. Phil. "Unless and until you look each other in the eye feeling peace, no hatred or resentment, you're not ready to get a divorce.

 

This is good!! Yet so hard for most of us to do.

 

But if they remarry, Jesus says they're committing adultery.

 

God does not approve of divorce - but it's forgiven when adultery is committed. This is also in the bible.

 

My father once told me that you shouldn't leave unless the love is completely gone. However, you are only one side and can't fight to save a marriage alone. You can only do so much while the other half must do the same. So there comes a point where you have to work harder, but when you realize that nothing is changing for the better and your own happiness or that of your children is at risk - leaving should be considered.

 

I agree this is different for everyone as we all have different tolerance levels and different beliefs. Yet in the end - you know what you can and can not live with. You'll know when the time comes.

[sinner]

Great advice/post, izzybelle. If that is indeed Dr. Phil's position on divorce, as posted, I'll buy your books/CDs before I get anything from that punitive blowhard.

[izzybelle]

sinner - thanks. i'll let you know when my first book's ready. lol....

 

i do sometimes agree with dr. phil but i think if i'd waited until i could walk out under his conditions, i'd still be there. ewwww what an awful thought!

[Maria46]

Children know when there are problems in their parent's marriage. It also affects them as well.

 

Don't stay in a marriage because of the children. They will probably be happier and under less stress if you get divorced. Children feel the tension in their parent's relationships. It affects their self esteem, behavior and their relationships with their peers. Most of all, children want to see their parents happy and smiling again however it has to be done.

 

Take care of yourself!! Will be thinking of you and hoping for the best.

[liswil]

What if there are no big fights, but there just isn't any affection or love left. It's sort of like living with a friend. Do you think it's better to stay together for the kids in that case?

 

What if it upsets the kids when they hear talk of divorce (which happened once)?

[findinmyway]

Marriage is a holy covenant made by God.

 

This isn't always true. If two non-believers get married, it is not a covenant by God.

 

God does not approve of divorce - but it's forgiven when adultery is committed. This is also in the bible.

 

Actually, if you are a Christian, what Moose said is true, somewhat. If you read bible carefully, you'll find that in the case of adultery (which BTW is different than infidelity) it is permitted to divorce. Nowhere does it state that it's ok to get remarried.

 

I have struggled with this much as I am divorced. And, I believe in God. I am currently with my exH trying to reconcile because of this belief. This is prob not right--but, it is miserable sometimes!!! I recently discussed this topic with my pastor. His response was (something like this) "True, in the bible it does state this (what I said above). However, God is also realistic. When he said we are commanded to reconcile to our former spouse (if it was a covenant by Him), He realizes that sometimes it just isn't possible. As in the case of adultery, where possibly too much has happened, too much water under the bridge. In this case, we should reconcile to be friends. We ARE commanded to let go of grudges, hate, contempt for the other person."

 

On the other hand, bible says Divorce is not an unpardonable sin. Which means, God DOES forgive divorce. SO....I'm not sure how to explain it.

[izzybelle]

hmmmm....there is a part of me that would love to get involved in the debate over christianity, the bible, god and whether or not that makes divorce a bad thing. i have some strong views and opinions about all of that. my ex was involved in a "christian" group in college who told him he shouldn't marry me because i was outside their group and not good enough. his parents who are very catholic (i was raised catholic too) were downright nasty to me throughout my marriage (openly nasty, even my kids picked up on it and they were young at the time) because i had been married before. i was married outside the church, he was emotionally abusive, i got out and the marriage was annuled by the church and they "allowed" me to be married in the catholic church to my ex. the bible is obviously, as pointed out by some, open for interrpretation. of course we're assuming here that it is so much more than the historical account than some believe. holy crap batman.... look at all of the worms coming out of the proverbial can!!!

 

anyway...liswil, my situation was similar to what you've described. we didn't have the knock down fights that many experience prior to the end of a marriage. i (we?) suffered mostly in silence. sure we argued but it was not the volatile situation that some kids are subjected to. so in some ways, the kids may have not necessarily known it was coming. recently my daughter commented that the "fights" didn't really start until after we started the divorce process. and she's right. that's when the anger, hurt, frustration and all those wonderful things reared their ugly little heads.

 

was it better to stay together for the kids even though we weren't battling? in my case, and i can only speak from MY experience, no. i didn't like who i was becoming because i was staying in a marriage i no longer was happy in. i hated him, i hated my life, i hated myself. i was no longer capable of being there for my kids the way i wanted to be and should have been.

 

my wake up call was finding out i had cancer. tough times bring many people closer. it was, for me, the final straw. many things happened and i won't go into detail, but i realized that there was no one and no body who was responsible for my happiness except me. life was too short for me to be living it in the he** i was in. i didn't know how much time i had left (hopefully many, many, many years) but i knew i couldn't go on like that for me and most importantly for my kids. i wanted my kids to see me as the mother i knew i could be. and yes, there was the fear that i wouldn't survive and i didn't want my kids remembering their mom as the sad and somewhat depressed, distant, person i'd become.

 

did they get upset when we told them about the divorce? yes. there were a lot of tears and anger. but they dealt with it. my son's biggest fear was that since i had stopped loving his father that i would stop loving him as well. after a lot of discussion, i know he's comfortable knowing that that willl never happen.

 

all that said....IMO you need to look at what the marriage is doing to you. how it's impacting you as a person and as a mother. are there things you can change about yourself, your marriage, your H to make things work? and is he willing to work at it as well? and although there's no easy answer, will it be worth it in the long run?

 

i know it's a difficult decision and one that if there are children involved has implications that reach further than any of us can ever imagine. and only you will know in your heart and in your head when the time has come to either do your best to work things out or do what's best and get out. a friend of mine used to refer to what i was going through as "sliding down a slippery slope" eventually you hit that point where it's impossible to go back, or climbing back up to the top requires more effort than you're willing to invest, knowing what's waiting for you at the top. if that person waiting for you to come back up is the person you know you want to be with, want to fall back in love with, then the climb is worth all of it. but if you look at the person waiting for you and don't feel anything at all, it may be time. and yes, if you make that choice, you will hit the bottom, and you may hit hard. but after time... you find your way back out, for you, not for someone else, but for you. selfish perhaps, but .... some of us have chosen that selfish path because we know for our kids it's the only way to survive.

[findinmyway]

ibelle--thanks for your response. It's not easy pouring out that stuff sometimes, I know.

 

liswil--my situation is pretty extreme. We've been divorced 3 yrs and are living together because we couldn't handle things apart. I sold my house several months ago, consolidated our things again, and moved back in with him because he asked for one more chance..."to really try this time". Since the D, we haven't moved back together (until now) but we have been back and forth with each other numerous times. He played the guilt game severely and each time I would give in because I couldn't see how we could raise our kids apart. We are both very dedicated parents. On top of that, he has kept me pretty confused by convincing me of things I didn't really believe, ie religious beliefs, etc.

 

So--a couple of weeks ago he tells me "if you can't make yourself be with me sexually, even if you really don't want to, then you should just leave". I tell you this to say that it may seem now like you can force things to happen because you SOOO want to keep things together for your kids. And, I believe that really is a possibility. However, in my case, where so much has happened and so much time has passed, I am beginning to believe it just isn't possible. And, for the first time, I am beginning to see how people can say their kids are better off with their parents being apart.

 

Alot of it depends on where you're at in your RS. I think you really know in your heart if there is still a fighting chance. And even then, it takes both of you, 100%. I'm not saying to give up by any means; however, if there is any way to avoid dragging things on like I have, you should consider that also. By trying to "save my children" I have ultimately caused them more pain by going back and forth and dragging things out.

[liswil]

There isn't hate, more like indiffence. And there's been no sex --or physical affection---for over a year. We've talked about things, but nothing changes.

[izzybelle]

liswil, indifference on your part, his part or both? they say that there's a fine line between love and hate but indifference can be a killer. and i'm not sure you mean it the way i'm interrpreting. at one point, as i said, i really hated my ex. i now have mostly (not always but mostly) moved to just feeling completely indifferent about what he does, except for how it impacts my kids. he could fall off the face of the earth and except that my kids would miss him, it really wouldn't matter to me. definitely cuts down on some of the fights!!

 

lack of sex and more importantly affection is a problem and you need to take a close hard look at why. in my case, i was so angry deep inside i just couldn't be attracted to him anymore and the thought of sex with him was repulsive. and he's an attractive man... i just knew who he was on the inside. he tried to make me feel that it was something wrong with me, hormones, stress, age, whatever. then i finally realized that it was me... sortof... it wasn't that i no longer liked or wanted to be affectionate with anyone, just not him.

 

counseling my help with some of that, depending on what's causing the issues.

 

fyi...depending on the state, lack of sex for a year when there are no physical reasons for why is grounds for divorce. constructive abandonment, once i knew i wanted a divorce, giving my ex the grounds was easy. well, ok, not easy but didn't want to go through the whole separation thing.

 

good luck

[liswil]

Izzybelle---- What was all your anger from in your case?

[izzybelle]

liswil - there were a lot of things, most of them now have disappeared since i no longer have to deal on a day to day basis. i no longer feel the anger on a daily basis, mostly just could care less what he does.

 

a few key things though that are still issues and have become issues for my kids. he's incredibly self-centered, the world revolves around what he has to do and who he is which always meant that the kids and i got the "leftovers." he still, especially when his fiance is around ignores my kids. even his friends have noticed and are bothered by it. i have a MS degree and a professional position, but it was always (subtly) made clear to me that what i did, didn't really matter, it was his job that counted. he's also pretty dang close to being a pathological liar. he doesn't see it that way, he sees it as exageration or spinning the truth to whatever he thinks someone wants to hear. and if he forgot to do something, it was always because i didn't tell him. or if i didn't do something it was never because he didn't tell me, it was always my fault. it got to the point where i never knew what to believe. actually that's not true, i knew i couldn't and still can't believe anything that comes out of his mouth. and he's about as unreliable as anyone could get, which goes with the selfish stuff. could never count on him to be where he needed to be. an issue which his fiance is currently dealing with. she bought him an expensive PDA to help with the problem, guess it hasn't! it wasn't a big deal before kids but....

 

it's funny somehow saying all those things now doesn't feel as badly as it did at the time. living with it daily was a nightmare and i now feel so much relief.

 

one of the biggest issues was that his family was outright nasty to me. his father called me an assortment of names from day one, all of them in spanish but i knew enough to know that he was calling me a who*e (or some variation) most of the time. when i found out i had cancer, he and his parents very much reacted like i was doing something to him, it wasn't what i was going through it was what i was putting him through. that did it right there. instead of being supportive, his mother, especially, was just awful to me and he very much behaved in the "poor me" mode. i understand it scared him and wasn't easy for him either but he couldn't deal with the fact that with all the surgery i had, i needed to be taken care of for a while. my kids picked up on it, my mother picked up on it which hurt her a lot, and any of our friends who were around saw the way his family treated me, too. but that was when my strength finally kicked in and i began to see what i had become.

 

i'm not a terrible person, but living that way made me feel like i was. i was belittled and treated like a 2nd class citizen. his family is wealthy, mine's not. he's hispanic, i'm not. i was never seen as good enough to grace their presence. when i finally gained enough strength to realize that i deserved better, or that being alone was preferable, i got out.

 

as i said, i didn't like the person i'd become. my self-esteem was in the toilet. i'd always been somewhat small but had a hard time losing the weight after my kids were born. i'd gone from 115lbs to almost 140...not good for someone who's only 5'2". but my self-esteem was so low, i just didn't care, and that bothered me a lot. since then, i'm back down to normal size and feeling much much better about myself. yeah!!!!

[meanon]

Thanks for sharing your inspiring story, izzybelle. Would you mind sharing a little more?

 

How old were your kids when you separated? How long did they take to adjust? Did your husband cooperate in making the separation as painless for them as possible? Were they able to maintain a relationship with him immediately after the separation?

[izzybelle]

my kids were 8 & 10 when we started the divorce process. my kids seemed to adjust pretty quickly. i think the hardest part for them was the fact that i moved out of the house (2700 sq ft) into a very, very small 2 bedroom apt. that was supposed to be temporary until i found a house to buy. but, to some extent, i got screwed in the divorce process and with the stock market decline a few years ago most of my downpayment funds went away. so we've since moved into a bigger place but they'd never had to live in a rented place before and i think that's been the biggest. no problems in school. they fight sometimes but i think much of that is just typical sibling stuff. both kids seem very happy. there were tears for the first week or so and headaches and my daughter still gets tummy aches sometimes but all in all they've handled it well. always hard to say what may happen later in life but for now.... ironically, my daughter's best friend's parents are headed for divorce, i think, and she's been a support system for her. it's been interesting to watch and has brought up some conversations lately about what she went through.

 

my ex and i share custody so the kids split time about 50-50. while it has it's problems, both kids told me that they appreciated the fact that they didn't feel like they had to choose. their relationship with their father is somewhat strained. he loves them, i don't doubt that, but he entered into a relationship before i moved out and focuses all of his attention on his now fiance. he tends to ignore them when she's around and they have a hard time getting in touch with him when they're with me. for him it's very much when they're with me he steps out of his "dad" role. so it was important to me, for them, to establish a solid relationship with them in that they know they can always reach me and that i'm always there for them.

 

the process for them was fairly painless, all things considered, for me it was otherwise. as i said before i got screwed and in retrospect there's a lot i would have done differently. i was in such a hurry to get out and didn't have the funds for court battles (he had his wealthy parents backing him) i gave in on a lot. i gave up the house, took the crappy car which died 2 mos. after i left, i left all but a few pieces of furniture behind and settled for less in child support than i should have. so, a word to the wise, no matter how badly you want out and no matter how awful you may feel about causing pain to your ex, don't settle. it's the rest of your life you're messing with too.

 

an amusing story about his mother's attitude about the whole thing. as i said, i left with very little... it all fit in a small u-haul. his mother came to visit and went to make french toast for breakfast and discovered that i had taken the cinnamon. how could i? who did i think i was...? i just laughed. so many people see her as this wonderful woman, very religious gives a lot of her time to charity. but with me... it was always a different story.

 

my kid's are wonderful and do help me out when they can. but their dad treats them as his little slaves so they tend to see coming to my place as a vacation. and i haven't pushed it. they clean when i ask, but they also don't mind the clutter that usually exists. their dad's getting married next spring, i think, and i worry about them. she's 8 yrs. younger than him, 13 younger than me and stepping into the role as a step parent of two teens isn't going to be easy. and i think she's going to make it very difficult on herself. she's also pretty self-centered and has a very active social life so i worry that my kids will get pushed even further aside. and i know she wants kids. he hadn't really wanted them to begin with so i'm surprised that he's considering having more (especially since he got "snipped" a number of years ago!). and although i know my daughter would love to have a little brother or sister, i know she's going to get pushed into the background. at first i thought maybe these were just my irrational fears. but they have been confirmed by his friends who don't like the way he acts around the kids when his fiance is around.

 

that was one thing that hadn't crossed my mind. i could have cared less what he did, who he slept with, etc. but i had never thought about the fact that some woman would be a step mom to my kids. still...not enough to have made me stay, even if i had realized that part. getting out and on with my own life was the smartest thing i ever did.

[meanon]

I've heard that from others, that remaining in the family home if at all possible is very helpful for children. It makes sense.

 

Thanks again, izzybelle.

[Ntanae]

Thank you so much for your responses. I have read all of them. Your story is so much like mine that I had to really sit back and read slowly. I too am in a relationship that I was abused and treated badly for years by a husband that now wants to resolve everything and make it right. We have been married for 13 years and we have argued 75% of it. There has been a few good times but overall I just do not love him anymore the way that I should. He has always been a great provider for me and our 2 boys ages, 6 and 12, but after all the physical and emotional abuse I just do not love him the way I know I should.

 

I told him back in November that I did not love him the same and every since he has told me that he can win my love back. well I don't think so. And yes, it is very hard to go on everyday at a home that you dont want to be at and be happy. He tries to do all the pamper stuff now. But it is too late. I have been acting on my independence for the last year however he has fought it the whole way. I used to not be able to do very much without his approval and that soon got old after about 7 years and I had a brief affair that he found out about. After that he still watches me like a hawk!

 

I am so miserable but I am afraid to tell him that I no longer want to be with him anymore becasue I think he will "loose it". It will break his heart. But what do I do? He deserves to be with someone who loves him the way he loves them. Our children can tell that nothin is right with us and sometimes makes little comments. I want to have my independence to do and go as I want. Please respond and tell me what you think. I know that the quicker that I tell him - he can stop thinkin that there is hope. and begin his healing process.

[izzybelle]

ntanae - if your husband is physically abusive, get out while you can. mine was primarily emotional and psychological but he's crossed the line a few times with the kids. but as i've made it clear to them, they have to be willing to say something. i can't tell a lawyer or judge or anyone about it and then have them take it back. i know he doesn't see it that way, do they ever? it's just discipline. he came pretty close to hitting me during one argument in front of the kids, my son screamed and started crying and my ex stopped. don't know what would have happened if they hadn't been there. on several occasions, he grabbed my arm pretty hard and left bruises. he has very, very strong hands and is well over a foot taller than i am so if it had ever gotten to that point, i don't know that i would have had much of a chance.

 

i also had a brief affair. he suspected but never knew for sure. it was stupid on my part, but i really thought there was something physically wrong with me. i'd always loved sex and i guess i needed to prove to myself that it wasn't me. my kids suspected too, but most of the time that any of them were suspicious i was at the store, or the mall, or at work, anything to get out of the house.

 

it did break my ex's heart, or so he says. at the time i believed him and felt terrible. it didn't change my mind but i really did feel awful. the funny thing was about 5 minutes after we started the process, he was involved with one of his students (he's a prof). and because he'd talked about her for years, i have my suspicions.

 

easy for me to sit here and say, just get it over with. but i know how long, probably close to 2 years to build up the courage. but things had gotten so bad, he'd go out and do his thing and i'd pass him coming home when i'd go out in the morning to exercise. we didn't talk, we avoided each other. when we first started having major problems he tried to pamper me as well. did whatever i wanted to do, and i never was quite sure whether he was trying to change or whether if he had "won me back" whether or not we would have gone back to the way things were. but i couldn't fall back in love with him, i tried. i tried to remember what things had been like at the beginning when i was madly in love with him. i tried to remember who the man was that i'd fallen in love with and why. and i couldn't.

 

i was talking to a friend the other night and i said something about the fact that i was sure he had many good qualities that i fell in love with. but my next comment, which made my friend laugh, was that they all escaped me now. and they do. he really is a very nice looking man, tall dark and handsome and wealthy. a good catch for many, but we just grew in different directions and i got so tired of all of the crap that went with being his wife. i've wondered if we had never married whether our relationship would have made it. if we'd never had kids would things have been different. but i wouldn't trade my kids for the world. they are my world.

 

i do know what you mean about the fear. i don't know if i was afraid he'd lose it, but i was definitely afraid. afraid of being alone and yes, afraid of hurting him. in retrospect, i know i was only hurting myself and my kids. i started feeling distant from him shortly after the birth of my daughter. he really didn't want a 2nd child. i did, and bad person that i am, i knew when i could get pregnant and did. don't get me wrong, he loves her. but he only had kids because i wanted them. i feel bad for his finance if he hasn't changed his mind because she doesn't know what he** lies ahead of her.

 

i wish i could just tell you to get out and let both of you get on with your lives. but that's a hard statement to make. i have to say if he's abusive you need to take care of yourself and your kids but only you will know in you heart if you have to end it. i get the impression from your story that your heart's telling you you're done, in time your head will give in and you'll just blurt it out. i didn't plan to tell him when i did, there was just one night when he came home late, we got into an argument and i said, "that's it, i'm done, no more. i want a divorce." i couldn't believe the words were coming out of my mouth. things i had longed to say for so long. and as awful as i felt because he looked so hurt, i felt such a wave of relief. he didn't really try to convince me to change my mind. he asked me once if i thought i would, and i said no and the next day he set up an appt. with a mediator for us.

 

a brief word about mediation. it can be great, it can save money. but if there is a stronger partner, it tends to go in their favor. attorneys look over the agreement but it's costly at that point to make many changes. i wish like he** i had!

 

good luck and please, please take care of yourself.

[sinner]

izzybelle, I cannot overstate how valuable your chronicle of divorce has been to myself and others.

 

I deeply appreciate the sacrifices you make in dredging up memories of those painful times and feelings in order to assist complete strangers.

 

I thank you.

[meanon]

I've found your posts very helpful too, izzybelle.

 

I was speaking to a close friend today about how she gained the courage to leave her marriage. She said that although it was very hard, in the end it was far harder to wake up every morning next to someone she didn't love. Don't waste your life out of a sense of obligation or duty, Ntanae. No-one deserves to be miserable.