Hating the OW/OM

[jlola]

I just don't like these analogies. I do not feel like I was the lookout while my bf raped his stbxw. Give me a break.

 

first off, never said you were the lookout. I said I compare an OW's willingness to cheat though she is afraid of it being done to her to MY or others fearing being raped(or mugged or whatever) but being able to stand there and enable someone else to do it. Because since it is not happening to you, it does not matter.

 

Coincidentally,

The emotional /psychological effects of rape are the same as infidelity.

 

.

Psychological Effects of Rape

 

Victims experience both short and long-term psychological effects of rape. One of the most common psychological consequences of rape is self-blame. Victims use self-blame as an avoidance-based coping tool. Self-blame slows or, in many cases, stops the healing process. Other common emotional and psychological effects of rape include:

 

• Post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) – feelings of severe anxiety and stress
  
• Depression
  
• Flashbacks –
  
• Sleep disorders
  
• Eating disorders
  
• Dissociative identity disorder
  
• Guilt
  
• Distrust of others – uneasy in everyday social situations
  
• Anger
  
• Feelings of personal powerlessness – victims feel the rapist robbed them of control over their bodies
  

Edited April 23, 2013 by jlola

[waterwoman]

Regarding OW and BS being unknown to each other..... we were not. I knew her and we got on OK. She came to two parties at our house, and came for coffee one evening when the affair was ongoing. Hell, I even hugged her and supported her when she was supposedly leaving her H and he was making it difficult. What a mug! What a sucker!

[cocorico]

 

My question is: Why would an OW care if the BS forgives her, or if the BW hates the OW? Seems a very odd request as the OW didn't feel the need to be considerate to the BS. This has come up several times and I would love to know the answer.

 

I'm quite sure my H's xW hates me, and will never forgive me. Why should she?

 

But why should I care if she did or not? She is nothing to me, and chances are I will never forgive her either, so why would I hold her to a different standard than I hold myself?

 

I couldn't care less if she blamed me for him dumping her, or for her chronic misery, or for global warming. It doesn't harm anyone except herself and her own ability to understand and move on.

[Decorative]

according to several here, OW is less important because they don't know her, she is a non entity. So, if that is true, why would the BS not also be a non entity to the OW?

 

The husband promised to be faithful. I am not in a R with the BS.

 

This is selfish and dangerous thinking.

 

Do.No. Harm.

 

Your actions harmed another human being. A human being you have never met.

A human being you are still criticizing- although you have zero idea what the truth is. You are taking it all on second hand reporting. This is harsh, but I would be very surprised if you are his first affair.

 

You don't get to harm other people because the end result makes you happy. That's wrong. It is.

 

And I think that is why the analogies make you upset. They frame the behavior in a way that points it out. I think it's actually a good sign about who you are, that it makes you uncomfortable.

 

Infidelity is a horrible mental and physical stressor. Awful. The things it gets compared to upset you, I know. I understand. But that doesn't make it less traumatic. Or less true.

[ComingInHot]

There was a thread a while back regarding why the BS was So angry and Unforgiving of the OW/OM...

This is kind of along the same line only the thread was mostly about how frustrated the OW/OM was when the BS forgave the AP w/out being asked.

 

My feelings are, regardless of what is "good" or wanted by the OW/OM, the BS is going to do what they need to do to work through the betrayal as they weren't asked either.

 

I forgave both my H & OW. I did it for me. I love my H. It made forgiveness equally easier AND harder.

It was actually easier to foregive AND blame the OW as I had no love for her.

 

It's what this unstable woman did After the A ended and then later After she outed the A to me that my view of her was less & less positive. It was crazy mean & I didn't deserve Any of it. I was one of the W's that Did fufill the needs of her H. I wasn't able to fufill his sense of entitlement of Wanting more than one woman.

 

Thankfully, H is sorry he felt such entitlement. He found out the hard way that getting everything you Want is not necessarily a "good" thing. I'm appreciative of this lesson he learned, even if at my pain & expense.

 

I trust my H these days, but I'm not stupid*

[SweetiePie12]

I would be very surprised if you are his first affair.

 

How does this (as well as length of time) indicate the level of seriousness involved between the two?

[SweetiePie12]

 

It seems just from reading here that the happy ow' s are the least empathetic.

 

To the contrary: I heard something on a Seattle radio station yesterday, a segment called "Second Date Follow Up" or something like that...

 

It involved Hannah, who had the best date of her life, and wanted to know why Pete never followed up with her. So she calls the radio station, they call Pete, Pete is angry and refuses to talk, hangs up on them.

 

Meanwhile one of the producers found on Facebook that Pete is engaged to be married. So they get the fiance, Jenny on the phone. She's devastated. I totally got tears in my eyes listening to her.

[SweetiePie12]

You helped:

-Keep the bs in the dark about the affair which thus denied her the choice about whether she wanted to be involved in a triangle.

 

It's a matter of loyalty: toward a lover, or a stranger. Why throw your friend under the bus & betray trust?

[Decorative]

To the contrary: I heard something on a Seattle radio station yesterday, a segment called "Second Date Follow Up" or something like that...

 

It involved Hannah, who had the best date of her life, and wanted to know why Pete never followed up with her. So she calls the radio station, they call Pete, Pete is angry and refuses to talk, hangs up on them.

 

Meanwhile one of the producers found on Facebook that Pete is engaged to be married. So they get the fiance, Jenny on the phone. She's devastated. I totally got tears in my eyes listening to her.

 

But you have no problem causing that problem to the Jenny in your situation ?

 

This makes zero sense.

[So happy together]

Someone said, but your husband invited the ow into the marriage. Well not exactly the mm didn't mean for the ow to be in the marriage, if he had, he would have discussed it and it would have been a open relationship, yes?

 

Anyway........just because the mm opened the door to the marriage, that certainly doesn't give the ow permission to just come on in, now does it, or at least the wife doesn't think so, right?

 

So......if you are following me so far. Take for instance fs's crazy rabbit boiling ow, if you say something like that to her, "well your husband invited the ow in"...........come on, it's like you are blaming her for the batshyte crazy ow. Can't we agree that it's in no way FS's fault? Her husbands.........oh yeah, but dumbass that he was, (sorry fs) didn't know what he was getting into. The point to blame a BS for what her husband did......come on, that isn't fair.

 

I am not blaming BS. And I've said lots of times I take the blame for what was my part in the relationship.

 

What I'm saying, is that in my BF's relationship, she did things that turned him away from her in a permanent way. Things that he couldn't forgive or forget that changed his feelings for her. People keep asking me if I have first hand knowledge of her alcoholism, etc. Actually, I know several friends of the family, and so that way I know. I know there was a complaint filed at the last business party at her behavior because she was blitzed and doing things that were inappropriate. Her father is also an alcoholic and when they would do things as an extended family my BF's parents would not attend because they just couldn't stand being in that environment. There are pics of her passed out on the toilet, as my BF kept a record over the last year in case he needed proof in the divorce. This was not a one time occurrance.

 

I'm not saying that my BF is blameless in the failure of the marriage. And she always drank, but didn't start drinking heavily until about five years into the marriage, and it's been that way ever since.

 

Even with all of this, I agree it is not her fault my BF had an affair, but she definitely played her role in not participating in the marriage, and by the time I came along, the marriage had been over for a long, long time.

 

You're right, I didn't have to walk through the door, but the fact still remains that if the door wasn't open, I could knock, ring the bell, try to get it down with a battering ram, and it would remain closed. This is in no way an excuse. I'm just saying that I take responsibility for walking through the door, but the door WAS open, and she, and he both played a role in that.

[So happy together]

The OW has the opportunity to make the choice to disregard the MM's wife. The BS doesn't have a choice in the matter. That automatically makes her important.

 

If the MM robbed a bank and the OW drove the getaway car, would she be completely innocent just because she wasn't inside the bank?

 

The OW is a knowing accomplice to wrongdoing. The BS is not.

 

Again, do you say yes to every man who flirts with you? The OW could say no when she finds out that the MM is married. She chooses to engage. Therefore she is also doing something wrong.

 

And the BS has been doing things wrong for years and refuses to change. While I agree, he should have left her before becoming involved, the BS still plays a role.

[So happy together]

OP- you are laying out the logical view. Of course logic dictates the WS is most to blame, of course the OW/OM is just incidental, but logic has f### all to do with it at the time. For the first few weeks I hated the OW like poison! Illogical? Who cares? It saved me from hating h when I was busy trying to cope with my new reality and include a hugely remorseful h in that reality.

 

I have been through various phases regarding OW, from hate, indifference, a anger, sympathy. Maybe I am using her as a scapegoat, a release valve. But guess what? She won't know, even assuming she cared, so no harm done. If I went after to tell her what I feel it might hurt her, but I won't do that.

 

H is the one who is dealing with my emotions day to day, making changes as we slowly and painfully with towards reconciliation. He's been to hell and back with me, as he should be.

 

There is simply NO comparison between my expectations of him and of her. She has got off lightly, in fact I believe she has split of with her supposedly abusive h so she's benefited I guess. Good luck to her <shrug>I am aiming for indifference towards her.

 

I think this is the closest to the truth for most WS's. And I am not telling you that you are right or wrong. I have said, and will say again, that I don't really care what my BF's stbxw says about me. I was juts curious what the feelings were on your side of it. And you're right, it is completely illogical no matter how you slice and dice it because we are human beings, not Spock. I think you just do whatever you must to get through it.

 

This is a first affair for both me and my BF, so we are just stumbling our way through just like everyone else. He seems more determined and knows where he wants things to go much more than I do. I am just trying to get a feel for what I'll be dealing with. I'm not saying anyone's hurt or pain is misplaced, I am just trying to understand because it does seem a little odd. The more I read, the more sense it makes.

 

Thanks for your input. Great post.

[Decorative]

And the BS has been doing things wrong for years and refuses to change. While I agree, he should have left her before becoming involved, the BS still plays a role.

 

Please. Please.

 

You have no idea if she has refused to change. You do not know the truth of their situation. You don't know. You've never even spoken to her.

 

I could horrify you with the things my spouse swore were true to the OW. They were not remotely true.

[So happy together]

what do you feel your part was?

 

I've often heard other men/women say that, but I don't recall ever haring an explanation of what they feel is their "part"...

 

I know you can only speak for yourself and your situation, but I am interested to hear your response...

 

Well, my part was walking through the door when he opened it, I suppose. We've known one another for almost 20 years and have fought these feelings for a long time and we just felt we were tired of waiting. We definitely should have waited until he'd left.

 

I do not like the fact that she will blame me forever, not that I care what she thinks so much because she ended her marriage years ago in her head, but because she will poison her daughter against her father and that is just wrong. I do realize that she is hurting, and I won't take whatever it is that she needs to heal away from her.

 

I feel bad that for the rest of her life she will see us together and know we were together before they split. I worry that she'll never get over it.

 

I will say that even if we had waited, she is going to hate me anyway. We have been seeing one another for about 18 months. She has told everyone she knows that we have been seeing one another for ten years and that my two youngest kids are his. It's not true.

 

I worry about his daughter. I know that she is angry. I hope that someday we'll be friends or if that is impossible, that she will at least be able to be in the same room with me. That is the most difficult part for me. Even if she is an adult, I realize that she is hurt. He's spoken honestly about what happened with us, when and why. She's a lot better. She moved out six months ago (she's in school still) because she couldn't stand to be around her mother's drinking, so she is more understanding as to why my BF left.

 

beyond that, I don't worry about her feelings much. I honestly feel that BS gave up a long time ago, and because of religious reasons felt that he would never have the guts to leave. There was no intimacy or sex for twelve years before he left. I know this to be true because we have been friends for a long, long time and he spoke with me about it often, even when we were not making a life together. I've also heard him argue on the phone with her about it and say those words directly to her and overheard her say "I'm overweight, that's why". He's tried to get her into therapy, he went on his own because she refused. She won't go to AA and she won't stop drinking. She has no desire to change, and when speaking of reconciliation, speaks only of finances.

 

So, I don't regret my relationship with my BF. I would feel better if he'd left first, but that horse has left the barn. Can't shut the gate now. So now we move forward making a life together that will be much happier.

Edited April 23, 2013 by So happy together

[So happy together]

Please. Please.

 

You have no idea if she has refused to change. You do not know the truth of their situation. You don't know. You've never even spoken to her.

 

I could horrify you with the things my spouse swore were true to the OW. They were not remotely true.

 

Perhaps. However, I have also heard from friends, family members etc. I've also heard him argue with her on the phone and heard her responses. So, I may not ever know exactly, but I know quite a bit.

[Decorative]

Perhaps. However, I have also heard from friends, family members etc. I've also heard him argue with her on the phone and heard her responses. So, I may not ever know exactly, but I know quite a bit.

 

Okay.

 

 

I've tried. You are walking into a trap. I wish you could see it.

 

But I'll stop commenting. You'll realize it when you realize it.

[truthbetold]

And the BS has been doing things wrong for years and refuses to change. While I agree, he should have left her before becoming involved, the BS still plays a role.

 

I am glad you admit this. I saw where you nearly put him on a pedestal bc of staying for the daughter and that he did all this self sacrificing and he really didn't.

 

Case in point. My husband's exwife took off and left them. Their daughter was 10 years old at the time. So I well understand all the "firsts" that you speak of like first bra, period, dances, all the girl stuff. He had his mom to help but it was really just him. I didn't meet him until 8 years after the fact. He has a disastrous dating story before he met me! But one thing he always said is he was so messed up during that time he wouldn't have been good for anyone, he had to figure out himself by HIMSELF. Not leaning on another woman and having that love to comfort him. It was damn hard for him, but I respect him so much for putting his needs on a back burner and doing everything possible for her. She ended up with a scholarship from her sport that he made sure was the focus she is now happily married herself.

 

So my point is people can and do remarkable brave things without the support of a love being in their life. You have to be happy on your own before you ever have a hope in hell of being 1/2 of a partnership that is happy. Forgive me, but it seems he needed you to show him the happiness and did not do this on his own. It was very difficult for my husband to go through the crap that he did, but he did it for 5 solid years before he even entertained the idea of dating. He believes a divorced man should be on their own for minimum 2-3 (and has even said ideally 5) years before being ready to be a good partner in a relationship.

 

I understand you can't turn the clock back and have him divorce before. But you can urge him to seek therapy and really try to figure out why he still thought it was okay to have an affair instead of leaving well before this. You blame it on his religious beliefs but that doesn't hold water either for the ones that "really" conform to what their religion asks of them. No one holds a gun to your head to make you be a part of this or that religion or any religion at all but if you are part of it, then it's on you to follow what is set out as right and wrong and adultery is very wrong on the eyes of the church. So for him to say he stayed for religion but it was okay to have an affair, I just don't think he's owning up to what he did and that's not good for a future with you.

 

Believe it or not, some of us really do live by the golden rule. Do unto others. Some of us who are happily married even visit this site from time to time to try to "help". I realize that may be a foreign concept for may people, that why would I, if so happily married want to come to an OW forum? It not just OW fOW and BS's that come here. But as I've said before I see similarities in disastrous dating experiences that I had. I see women settling for so much less. I see them walking into bad situations that really aren't healthy and happiness starts within, I learned that the hard way. So yeah some of us do actually like to try to help people even if it's just nameless faceless interactions. Some of us try to create harmony in life and that starts one person at a time.

 

I really hope for your future's sake you do take the advice on board and at least think about it. I see people who are trying to save you some heartache of what's surely going to be a tough road. If he carries guilt as you say you don't know that she couldn't possibly try to clean up her act and he'll feel bad and go back. You don't know that the daughter's possible refusal to have you in her life may force his hand to end things. You don't know that he will stay but that you will have a dysfunctional relationship with him, because the common denominator is him. Say what you will but unless he figures out why he did this and stayed with someone that he had no compatibility and needed someone else to help him exit, he's not going to be someone capable of making healthy decisions.

 

There are 2 stories in another section of LS that both women were dating separated/divorced men, both women came in the tail end of a divorce but in both situations the kids blamed the women and wouldn't accept them. One case the guy went home after 3 years of being gone, the other just broke up with the woman and said there was too much bad feelings that he needs to be on his own, it's why often these guys use someone as their safety net until they feel secure enough to see what else is out there, I'm sorry but it happens especially with guys who are conflict avoid ant. And if your guy stayed with someone that you described in hell for 15 years but did nothing. He has traits of CA.

 

I would think if you do what your relationship to have the best chance of succeeding then you would want to be aware of any possible pitfalls and figure out how to navigate them. But to become defensive and to say that won't happen because it's different is pretty foolish. Sadly your love story is coming from the ashes of someone else and their pain. That usually is not the hallmark of a lasting love story. But I think you can take the steps now to realize that no, it wasn't ideal and it was wrong and just own that, not dwell in it but own it so you can make better choices that can define your future happiness.

 

I don't think anyone's past should define their future, but I think you have to own it and accept it to make better choices. I wish you peace.

[Owl]

This was discussed in another thread, and it was a T/J, so I thought I would broach it here and see what the responses were.

 

I was just wondering, and please, let's keep it friendly, why it is that a BS can forgive her WS, even if they make them work for it, but eventually do forgive them, but cannot ever forgive the OW/OM, and they take on the brunt of the blame until the end of time. I just don't understand it.

 

For me, it would be more blame on my WS since he was the one that broke promises to me. I understand that BS would feel that the OM/OW is to blame also, but it seems they get MORE blame than the WS.

 

Thoughts?

 

Interesting post.

 

In my own personal situation, I was angry with OM for a good while. Just as I was angry with my wife, albeit for slightly different reasons.

 

My wife violated my love and trust in her around our marriage.

 

He violated our friendship/trust.

 

Over time, as I learned to forgive her, I eventually forgave him as well.

 

However...as he's never had (nor likely ever will) the opportunity to regain my trust, I would still never trust him back in my life again in any fashion...as her friend or mine, for example.

 

As long as he remains out of our lives...I wish him a long and happy life. Hope he finds love, and that he's recovered from all of this as well as we have.

 

Now...that sentiment didn't come easily, or immediately. I had to recover from the pain of the situation before I could get to that point. Some folks take longer than others for this to happen...and some never do.

 

But in my case...as long as he's not part of my life today, I wish him well.

[skylarblue]

I think most OW are the ones initially blaming the person they don't know or have a history or connection with.

 

I rarely see the OW talking up the spouse. In fact even on this forum I see OW saying things about the spouse they really have not witnessed. Bad parents, uncaring spouse,alcoholics,selfish,non sexual, greedy whatever. Also I feel OW may subconsciously think they are better than the wife. "He loves me" not her!! "We are compatible, they are not"

 

Whatever shortcomings the MM claims the wife has, they think they are the opposite. No matter how many people deny it, it is sort of a competition. Though they may not call it that. Before dday, many OW are hating on BS in their own way.

 

I wonder why the OW thinks they deserve a pass by the BS who is probably giving her husband more hell than you will ever know. Years of it probably. Answering questions,going to therapy,making him accountable for his time etc. OW are going through none of that.

 

Don't know about you, but if a person was willing to help someone do to me(a stranger) what they themslves would find disrespectfu,unacceptable, and hurtful. I would feel very upset. The message is, I do not matter. I am a non-person to them. My feelings,my children's feelings,my future, my finances means nothing to them.

 

Just because they are not the ones doing the act, the fact they would not tolerate someone else doing it to them what they will help someone do to me lets me know what they think of me.Their feelings matter,their pride matters,their heart matters,their ego matters. Not mine. And I should not be a wee bit upset with them for acting like I am a non-person with no feelings.

 

Analogy is , I fear getting raped . Because I know it will be soul destroying,humiliating,will leave me with mental scars,etc. But if I see someone being raped, I stay on the lookout for the perpetrator,willing to lie and hide the secret. As long as it's not happening to me and I am not a participant, no problem.Why should I take any responsibility? Besides, I don't have feelings for the victim and really cannot empathize with her since it's not happening to me. She should be able to understand that!

 

That maybe all well and true, but the thread's topic is not about the OW's culpability, behavior, feelings torwards the BS etc. It was about BSs whose blame and anger is towards the OW more than the WS. Therefore, my comments ONLY related to my thoughts/opinion on the BSs who may do this. I thought my post was pretty clear as to what I was addressing.

 

I don't understand why you would address my post what negativity and debate over something totally unrelated to the SPECIFIC topic or what/which I was commenting on is beyond me and a great example of how threads get t/j and how people unnecessarily and unthoughtfully throw threads off track and bring about closings.

[SweetiePie12]

you have empathy when you hear something like that on the radio...so much so that it brings tears to your eyes, yet you have zero empathy for the wife/fiance/whatever she is of the man you are having an affair with?

 

what's the damned difference? why is "jenny" worthy of your tears

 

I listened and I thought, wow, am I somehow "worse" than Hannah or something? Then I realized the difference between Hannah & I: I happen to love the man.

[jlola]

That maybe all well and true, but the thread's topic is not about the OW's culpability, behavior, feelings torwards the BS etc. It was about BSs whose blame and anger is towards the OW more than the WS. Therefore, my comments ONLY related to my thoughts/opinion on the BSs who may do this. I thought my post was pretty clear as to what I was addressing.

 

I don't understand why you would address my post what negativity and debate over something totally unrelated to the SPECIFIC topic or what/which I was commenting on is beyond me and a great example of how threads get t/j and how people unnecessarily and unthoughtfully throw threads off track and bring about closings.

 

 

Question was why is the WS forgiven, but cannot forgive OW.

 

It also stated there was more blame given to OW than WS.

 

I do not agree and gave my opinion. Why is that off topic?I do not see this on this forum or in real life. So I cannot go along with that way of thinking.

 

I see a lot of WS who are expected to d heavy lifting. Therapy,probably sleepless nights with lots of questions,transparency,sleeping on couch etc.

 

The OP acted like life went on as usual and BS is all lovey dovey with WS and WS given no consequences.

 

I also see(my point of view may not be yours) that many OW also seem to put most of the blame of the downfall of the marriage,the bad behavior,the craziness on the wife. WS is the one OW pity. Probably why they went so far down the rabbit hole in the first place.

 

With the mentality of "I will show him how a real loving woman behaves,since BS at home does not appreciate him."

 

I do not think I went off topic by pointing out why I do not agree with OP.

[SweetiePie12]

and, in the context of this thread, what difference should that make to his betrayed spouse?

 

I cannot speculate on behalf of a total and complete stranger.

[jlola]

That maybe all well and true, but the thread's topic is not about the OW's culpability, behavior, feelings torwards the BS etc. It was about BSs whose blame and anger is towards the OW more than the WS. Therefore, my comments ONLY related to my thoughts/opinion on the BSs who may do this. I thought my post was pretty clear as to what I was addressing.

 

I don't understand why you would address my post what negativity and debate over something totally unrelated to the SPECIFIC topic or what/which I was commenting on is beyond me and a great example of how threads get t/j and how people unnecessarily and unthoughtfully throw threads off track and bring about closings.

 

 

Apologies,

 

Negativity was not meant towards you at all.

[So happy together]

Question was why is the WS forgiven, but cannot forgive OW.

 

It also stated there was more blame given to OW than WS.

 

I do not agree and gave my opinion. Why is that off topic?I do not see this on this forum or in real life. So I cannot go along with that way of thinking.

 

I see a lot of WS who are expected to d heavy lifting. Therapy,probably sleepless nights with lots of questions,transparency,sleeping on couch etc.

 

The OP acted like life went on as usual and BS is all lovey dovey with WS and WS given no consequences.

 

I also see(my point of view may not be yours) that many OW also seem to put most of the blame of the downfall of the marriage,the bad behavior,the craziness on the wife. WS is the one OW pity. Probably why they went so far down the rabbit hole in the first place.

 

With the mentality of "I will show him how a real loving woman behaves,since BS at home does not appreciate him."

 

I do not think I went off topic by pointing out why I do not agree with OP.

 

I'm not looking for you to agree or disagree. I'm simply looking at why BS's behave the way they do, as submitted in the OP.

[So happy together]

If my h had left to go be with ow I know I would have just as much anger for him also.

 

I don't understand the op' s thinking that the ws ends the affair and that the wife just forgives and that is the end of it.

 

I'm not sure why some think that forgiveness should be given to someone who never apologized or admitted any culpability for their part in hurting others?

 

It seems just from reading here that the happy ow' s are the least empathetic. They have no remorse for hurting the others involved because they feel the wife deserved it. They put their happiness first and foremost and the wife and kids are just obstacles to be dealt with, and they can either all volunteer to get out of the way or get run over. I absolutely know that is how the ow in my case felt. She had the same smug, I am better than you attitude. I know she did, she expressed it many times.

 

I do not feel this way. But I won't ever go out of my way to tell her she is great, either. I never asked for forgiveness. BS's anger has nothing to do with me. I was asking FOR HER SAKE why she held on to it with the BS when she'd forgiven her husband. It's a fair question.