Minneloa Posted May 1, 2013 Posted May 1, 2013 If I'm going to reach out to her again, I need to allow some significant time to elapse. She's probably scared of me and what I might try next. I have to somehow force myself to lay low. Maybe in a few weeks I could try just a text message to test the proverbial waters. If I ever got super desperate (which I hope I won't), we share a few mutual acquaintances who could be employed as go-betweens. There certainly won't be anymore gifts, and in my head, I know it's over, even if my heart refuses to admit it. OP, I am a person who has struggled with obsessive thinking for most of my adult life, and so I recognize the kind of hell you are describing. That said, I urge you not to contact this woman again, period. You have made her uncomfortable, even if that was not your intention. While I understand that it will be a difficult process to let go of your feelings, I think you need to respect the boundary this woman is setting and keep away from her, starting now. At this point, it's not really about her, anyway, which you have acknowledged in your posts. It's about you and the issues that you discuss in your other thread, which was vulnerable, honest, and courageous to share here. The irony of obsession, at least in my experience, is that it usually has *very little* to do with the object of the obsession and everything to do with the person obsessing (in my case, tremendous fear about being in an actual relationship). I know that you have reservations about seeking professional help, but counseling, particularly something like CBT (cognitive behavioral therapy) might help you with these patterns of obsessive thought. (I myself was on anti-depressants for over a decade, with mixed results.) I offer these comments from a place of empathy, not judgment or condescension, and I hope you will hear them as such. Sending good thoughts, M.
Author Jefezen Posted May 1, 2013 Author Posted May 1, 2013 Thank you for the suggestion, Minneloa. It's amazing how difficult it is to restrain myself from contacting her. There were times where I'd wait as long as five weeks, and then she'd actually be somewhat friendly when I finally resumed contact. I don't expect that to happen this time around because blocking me on Facebook seems like a significant move, although I've noticed her drop other people (including women) in the past. I do think she's overreacting. As someone who has driven women away before with my obsessive behavior, I was a lot more careful this time around, and really didn't contact her too much, or too frequently, or say anything over the top. Past experience also tells me that even when I did cross too many boundaries, the women came back into my life after I had left them alone for awhile. The passage of time helped us both in different ways. For them, they realized I'm not some psycho ax murderer. For me, I realized they really weren't that special and that I no longer cared for them romantically. Now I'm able to treat them just as casual acquaintances and there's been almost no temptation to fall for them again, even though I think one of them wants me to like her. I'll admit that I'm glad they came back into my life because I hate to be on bad terms with anyone. But I think for purposes of my recovery, the prolonged no contact was ultimately a blessing in disguise.
Author Jefezen Posted May 1, 2013 Author Posted May 1, 2013 At this point, it's not really about her, anyway, which you have acknowledged in your posts. It's about you and the issues that you discuss in your other thread, which was vulnerable, honest, and courageous to share here. The irony of obsession, at least in my experience, is that it usually has *very little* to do with the object of the obsession and everything to do with the person obsessing (in my case, tremendous fear about being in an actual relationship). This is a very astute, profound insight, Minneloa. I greatly appreciate it, and can certainly see how it might apply to my situation. I'm going to ruminate on this more later. For now, I'm off to distract myself with sports games at a local bar with my friends.
TheFinalWord Posted May 1, 2013 Posted May 1, 2013 I know the following conversation represents a rejection. My question is whether I can potentially salvage anything out of it based on the woman's explanation for the rejection. What follows are the relevant, unedited excerpts from a recent online exchange with her: Her: I think you're a nice gentlemen and a good friend. Its so nice to know you. At the begining I thought we would be maybe dating in the future but then my mind changed. I value your friendship and still willing to socialize as friend and do things together but just so much going on in my life and I can not really plan. Me: I appreciate your candor. May I ask why you changed your mind about possibly dating? I know I have a tendency to be a little slow early on in conveying my interest in a woman. It's part of my shy nature. But the interest exists, and I was trying to show it a bit more when we went out to dinner that last time. Her: I am not sure why but I'd say that I like your intellectual side but somethimes I think this is a little bit too much for me. Your intellectual writing and speaking made me feel like we're not the right match for eachother. I'm newcin your life so you're interested in and getting excited about making plans but maybe this won't be continuing. I'm kind of scared and took a step back. Me: Thanks for answering. I can be casual too. The more I get to know someone, the more relaxed I become, the more down to earth and assertive I get. That's the real reason I tried to get you to go ice skating with me after New Years. I wanted a chance to do something less formal, more casual. It's actually kind of funny you mention my intellectual side possibly being too much for you, because I was thinking the same about you in reverse! When you were explaining to me what you do for work, I was thinking to myself, "Wow, I'm clueless, she's way too smart. How intimidating." Her: Hahaa �� Me: Sometimes early on when I meet someone, and maybe you've had this experience too, I feel like I'm at an oral examination where I need to impress to the best of my abilities. That, combined with my initial shyness, tends to give off an impression of rigidity, boredom, lack of being fun. But in all honesty, once I'm comfortable with someone, I don't worry about that anymore, I relax, and sometimes I don't shutup (as my close friends from childhood can attest). Her: Maybe its not you, maybe its me. I hate speaking and writing broken English. I wish I'd be able to explain my self and my thoughts in a richer way, but just I can't. Thanks for thinking great things about me. I really appreciated. �� Well I think its normal what you're saying. I understand that. Anyways it just did not work between us but I am glad we're still friends. Have u been dating w someone yet? Me: I've been going out with other women on occasion, but honestly, the reason I was so persistent with you (which is very unusual for me, by the way) is because I wanted to make sure that you really weren't interested anymore before I switch gears. I'm not someone who likes to pursue multiple people at once. That's come back to haunt me before, but so be it. How about you? Are you dating anyone? I'm guessing yes. Her: It is amazing you think that dating w multiple ppl at the same time is not something for you. I feel the same. I know I can not put my true feelings and attention if I see more than one person at the same time. Yes I went out with a guy I met online twice and I do have interest on getting him know more but I don't know what he thinks. He texts me very frequently. It is still very new and hard to guess where it's going. We'll see. Me: I've never pursued multiple people simultaneously. I put my attention on one person. I probably was too slow with you. I tend to think that if I'm patient and give a a woman space, it'll work out better. That was probably a mistake. I'm a little frustrated we didn't have this conversation sooner, though. I missed out on another opportunity because I thought if I waited out your test and cousin, things might be different. Her: Sorry. I think I was not clear but I did not exactly know/think you've been waiting for me. Me: I'm not blaming you. I tend to hold back too much of what I'm thinking and what I want for too long on the mistaken belief that patience is a virtue, and that politeness requires playing along silently with the circumstances, even when intuition tells you that something is off. Her: You seemed you're going out, socializing a lot. I thought we did not commit to eachother a relationship. If I was wrong please tell me Oh no I understand Me: Now that we're being completely open with one another, your English was honestly not the least bit of a concern to me. I actually prefer foreign women, I always have, and I thought you expressed yourself quite well. For me, the one thing that gave me pause was this sense that you had someone else all along. You'd encourage me to pursue you in some ways, but then you'd suddenly get a late night text message and abruptly disappear. That happened twice early on. You also seemed to get upset with me when I asked if you were seeing anybody after you declined my Valentines invitation. Her: I am in a situation I look my phone every other hour to see a text from my new date but that is not coming. We all do similar things wait and expect. I think its normal. I declined that because It won't be true. I also had a plan w my cousin that night. Me: I know that feeling well of anticipating messages that never come, getting excited when you hear your phone beep, only to find that it's not the person you expected. That's another reason I could tell something was wrong. Early on, you'd initiate conversations with me sometimes. Then you stopped completely. If I didn't contact you, you never contacted me, and consequently, I was almost afraid to contact you because I felt like it was an imposition and you wouldn't like it. Her: Thanks for telling me all of that. I understand you very well and respect what you think and how you feel. I've been through in same situation. We're all human and we do have same feelings one to other. Anyways I don't want you to be upset and hold back Look forward And continue exploring new places new people and new things. I'll be always here to talk. ... Me: One last question, if I may...could you tell that I was interested in you, or did you not know? For my future endeavors, it would helpful to know whether I need to pounce a lot sooner, and harder. Her: Well It depends, I am not an expert. Actually very bad in relationships. but I'd say its important to have one to one time together after going on 2-3 dates. For example staying together at night or spending a day together in an area far from other people and public. At the begining I waited to hear from you ask me come over to the bar you ussually go at some evenings. You never did. I enjoy being a part of people's daily life I like. I think I feel being accepted in some way. But its me anyways. Never mind. Me: I wish I had known that, I would have asked you to join me in a nanosecond! The reason I didn't was I thought early on I'd have to impress you first by only taking you to top places and parties. I wasn't sure. Her: That's all right. There is no exact or right way doing things. We both would not know. Me: We also work in the same town sometimes and I thought about asking you for lunch, but then figured you'd think that's too much, too soon. As you can see, I second guess myself a lot, often to my detriment. Her: All my interest and attention focused on this new person in these days. I won't be able to say yes to you for hanging out together. That'd be wrong. But thank you. Any ways I wish u a good night Take care of yourself You are texting way too much. Overall your tone displays an extreme lack of confidence in yourself. Her interest after this probably went from right under 50% to low 20%. Why are you probing about who she likes so much? You're not in a relationship so it's not your business. Also, when you keep probing it displays insecurity and lack of confidence. For a woman with dating experience, it screams RED alert this guy is controlling. Overall, way too much texting. Texting and phone is for setting dates only at the beginning. Otherwise you end up with a phoneship instead of a relationship. I would chalk this up as a learning experience, but whatever you do, do not keep texting this woman. Every text asking about her to debrief you on what you did wrong, lowers her interest about 500 points. If she texts you, all you reply should be: "Great to hear from you! Are you free to go out this week?" Her: "No, I'm really busy" You: "Okay, well call or text when you get a chance, I have to run!" If she says, "Yes" make definite plans. Set a date and time. Then get off the phone. Would not recommend continuously debriefing her on your weaknesses and downfalls.
hudson701 Posted May 2, 2013 Posted May 2, 2013 Wow... Time to purchase a copy of 'The Power of Now' and put that Ego to bed! You are massively over-thinking this, and even I, as a complete stranger, am a little disturbed by your ridiculously long posts above. You seem like some sort of academic trying to rationalise a situation using logic, which is utterly futile given its her emotions your dealing with. Ultimately it's something she can't really control. She doesn't like you. End of story. Move on.
Minneloa Posted May 2, 2013 Posted May 2, 2013 Wow... Time to purchase a copy of 'The Power of Now' and put that Ego to bed! You are massively over-thinking this, and even I, as a complete stranger, am a little disturbed by your ridiculously long posts above. You seem like some sort of academic trying to rationalise a situation using logic, which is utterly futile given its her emotions your dealing with. Ultimately it's something she can't really control. She doesn't like you. End of story. Move on. This was unnecessarily harsh towards the OP, in my opinion. However, I am assuming that you are taking a "tough love" stance and that you mean well. That said, I do think that your point about logic vs. emotion is spot-on. This part of life (love, attraction, romantic relationships) defies all reason, and I think that is a useful "bottom line" for Jefezen to keep in mind. "The heart has its reasons, which reason cannot know."
Minneloa Posted May 2, 2013 Posted May 2, 2013 It was just an example. I'm not attacking you but you do have this ego. Perhaps it's what made her kind creeped out and blocked you on Facebook. Seriously look in the mirror when you get upset because it's you not someone else. If you expected nothing from her when you sent that gift you wouldn't be upset. You should know this but you will deny it. Yet you get incredibly defensive when I mentioned this. When realize sooner or later the error your way only they will you start to success. It's not matter of teaching someone. Pretty much everyone has an ego including myself, the difference is that you don't can't accept that fact. You're responding to another poster here, not the OP. We have a cross-talk situation.
Author Jefezen Posted May 2, 2013 Author Posted May 2, 2013 You are texting way too much. Overall your tone displays an extreme lack of confidence in yourself. Her interest after this probably went from right under 50% to low 20%. Her interest in me was already probably under 5% and that's being generous. The conversation I quoted was my finally buckling and trying to just get to the bottom of why she wouldn't go out with me anymore. Why are you probing about who she likes so much? You're not in a relationship so it's not your business. Actually, if you read the transcript, she's the one who asked me if I'm dating. She started that subject. I agree I continued it for too long and should not have displayed interest in discussing it. Overall, way too much texting. Texting and phone is for setting dates only at the beginning. Otherwise you end up with a phoneship instead of a relationship. This was the longest texting (actually Facebook pre-deleting me) conversation we ever had together. Usually the text conversations were quite short and took the form you suggested. I generally texted her once a week at most, usually only once every other week. There was a time where I went no contact for five weeks. I'd ask her out, she'd say she's too busy, I'd wish her well, and that was it. After three months of this I got fed up and had the quoted conversation. I would chalk this up as a learning experience, but whatever you do, do not keep texting this woman. Every text asking about her to debrief you on what you did wrong, lowers her interest about 500 points. I'm less concerned with her assessment of my self-esteem than with her being afraid of me and thinking I'm a stalker. She put herself down to me plenty, far more than I ever confessed to weaknesses with her. She repeated herself multiple times about how bad she is with guys and relationships, and how she never manages to last in one. Clearly, she's doing something wrong too because she's a fairly attractive woman, about to turn 33, with no real history of meaningful relationships despite ruefully claiming to want a family. Also on the question of not being desirable, I did a good job of making myself seem popular with other women. She even commented on it the few times she'd actually talk to me. I attend lots of parties, I go out a lot, and I'd post pictures where I'm embracing various attractive females. It wasn't a difficult thing to do because I actually do have a lot of women in my life, it's just that they're either of the platonic variety or below my general physical standards. If she texts you, all you reply should be: "Great to hear from you! Are you free to go out this week?" Her: "No, I'm really busy" You: "Okay, well call or text when you get a chance, I have to run!" If she says, "Yes" make definite plans. Set a date and time. Then get off the phone. Would not recommend continuously debriefing her on your weaknesses and downfalls. Given that she never initiated a conversation after January, and that now she's scared enough of me (or whatever the case may be) to block me from Facebook too despite her page being sparse and my never posting on it, I highly doubt she'll ever text me. If we're to talk again, it'll be either because I text her (a bad idea, at least for awhile) or because we run into each other again in person somewhere at a function hosted by a mutual friend/acquaintance. If or when that happens, I think I need to be strong enough to basically just ignore her. I made my interest clear. I tried multiple times to go out with her. She rebuffed me. I can only chase for so long. If she somehow magically changes her mind and decides she wants me again like in the early going, she knows how to reach me. If she deleted me as a contact in her phone, she knows where I hang out, when I hang out there, and which people overlap between our social circles. The probability of this happening is probably very low, but as I said before, I actually have experienced women coming back to me, including women I once scared off significantly worse than this one.
Author Jefezen Posted May 2, 2013 Author Posted May 2, 2013 It's not about her it's about what a catch she can be. Rationally, I understand that I'm focused more on what could be and what was than on what is; how do I internalize this realization to the point where my feelings cooperate with my head? That's been my struggle for years. I'm not delusional, I'm emotionally undisciplined. It's the ego thing or at least it seems to be. You're also over thinking things, it is surprising it doesn't stress you out or make you depressed. It does stress me out. It does make me depressed. I'm miserable. I've been infatuated with four different women in my life, the first three of which I legitimately alienated with my obsessive and stalkerish behavior that manifested only after I sensed them withdrawing. I did a lot of things I regret with them. I wasn't violent or sexual, that's not at all who I am, nor did I ever threaten them, but I did go too far. I didn't accept no for an answer and I bothered them incessantly, demanding explanations, contacting them day after day, hour after hour sometimes, doing something even worse than that in one instance. I can definitely see how my actions engendered fear and distrust. I'm amazed that two of the four basically forgave me and that one of them wants me back. Given my troubling history in this area, I was a lot more cautious with this current one. I'm not deluging her with text messages and phone calls. I'm not sending her deranged love letters or overtly romantic gifts. I'm not conveniently appearing in places where I'm likely to find her in order to force conversations. I've restrained myself. That's why I'm a little surprised by her extreme reaction. I'm not sure why some combination of seeing her at a party (and not sticking with her, I hung out with other women, quite visibly flirted with them with no regard for whether she observed or not, and didn't even see when she left) and sending a fruit basket (which really is something I do a fair amount of for friends, co-workers, family, etc.) would set her over the edge. But you're right. It doesn't matter whether her response is logical. Emotions aren't always logical. I'm experiencing that right now myself, so what right do I have to then criticize her for the same? She doesn't want me, period. Whether that's due to her own fears and insecurities, her own emotional imbalances, a dislike for me, something I did, just plain incompatibility, ultimately doesn't matter. Whatever may be motivating her to not want me or not be with me doesn't change the underlying fact that it's just not happening. I gave it a try. I gave it multiple tries. It didn't work out. I need to accept that, feel fortunate to have so many other women in my life, and give some of them a try. Also she pretty much rejected you but you wanted to date her because of the ego. That gift wasn't really about you caring than winning her heart. You were hoping to win her heart and when it feel apart you got upset. You're right. I don't care that she's stressed out. Part of me wants her to be as miserable as I feel. If I can't be happy with her, I don't want her to be happy without me. I know that's a hideous trait, but I think all of us sometimes harbor those kinds of feelings when rejected. The only part of your statement I disagree with is that I'm upset over the gift not winning back her heart. I'm okay with certain strategies failing. What upsets me is that she twice thanked me for it, making it seem like it was appreciated, only to block me from Facebook, and probably out of her life completely. I still maintain that's a bit much for a mere fruit basket. All of you here know how obsessed I am with her but she doesn't necessarily know that, at least not to the full extent. From her standpoint, I have lots of girls in my life, which I do, and she might just be one of many targets. Anyways try not to think so much about it. Relax and enjoy the moment! When I don't care about a woman I'm pursuing, I do a much better job of getting her. I seem to succeed with the women I don't really want and fail miserably with the ones I desire.
TheFinalWord Posted May 2, 2013 Posted May 2, 2013 (edited) Her interest in me was already probably under 5% and that's being generous. The conversation I quoted was my finally buckling and trying to just get to the bottom of why she wouldn't go out with me anymore. Sure, I see what you're saying. Personally, I don't probe. If they do not want me, it is their loss. You have to have that mindset and it has to show with your actions. By begging and bargaining with a woman, you are telling her you are not that confident and you have no other prospects. Attraction killer. And the more you probe, the more awkward you make it for her to just be friends. Plus, if you don't probe, and act like "your loss", she may feel free to regain interest in you later. But if you expose your weakness and lack of confidence, it reduces your masculinity. Actually, if you read the transcript, she's the one who asked me if I'm dating. She started that subject. I agree I continued it for too long and should not have displayed interest in discussing it. I did read it, but I am only focusing on what you say. What she says is in response to you. You're the man and you direct the conversations...not being chauvinistic, but masculine energy is leadership energy. If she asked that it would be better to divert and talk about light-hearted things. Dating should be fun at first. This is all way to serious for not even knowing if you have chemistry. This was the longest texting (actually Facebook pre-deleting me) conversation we ever had together. Usually the text conversations were quite short and took the form you suggested. I generally texted her once a week at most, usually only once every other week. There was a time where I went no contact for five weeks. I'd ask her out, she'd say she's too busy, I'd wish her well, and that was it. After three months of this I got fed up and had the quoted conversation. What would have been better, is you ask her out twice and wait one or two weeks in between. If at both times she rejects your advances, you simply reply "okay, let me know if you ever change your mind!"...never contact again after that. That's the last communication you initiate. There should be no need to get fed up after that, b/c she is indirectly giving you the answer. And btw that is how you are going to get most responses from women, indirectly. And when you leave it on that note, there is an invitation for her to contact you again someday. Women need time to process what they are feeling. Instead of getting all upset and getting fed up, just give the same formula: "okay let me know if you change your mind. Good talking to you!" I'm less concerned with her assessment of my self-esteem than with her being afraid of me and thinking I'm a stalker. She put herself down to me plenty, far more than I ever confessed to weaknesses with her. She repeated herself multiple times about how bad she is with guys and relationships, and how she never manages to last in one. Clearly, she's doing something wrong too because she's a fairly attractive woman, about to turn 33, with no real history of meaningful relationships despite ruefully claiming to want a family. I don't agree that you do not care b/c you would not be posting. Your ego has been hurt and that is directly tied to a man's self-esteem. It doesn't matter what she did, you are basically saying "She started it mommy!". When you do that you convey a child energy, not the energy of a man. And her opening up to you about her downfalls means you are turning into her male girlfriend. That should be a major red flag to change your positioning. Discussions about baggage and failures, is for much later. Dating in the beginning should be fun. Also, everyone has a problem with relationships, some of me thinks that was an excuse to divert you. They all end until you find one to marry. And even those don't last most of the time. The difference is a man can say "okay that relationship was for this phase of my life and I learned x, y, and z" and moves on. Take ownership of what you messed up and carry on. Instead, you are now analyzing what is wrong with her and how she destroys relationships. You are extrapolating profusely off very little information, that was probably tainted to get you to back off. Take ownership of the problem (masculine). Also on the question of not being desirable, I did a good job of making myself seem popular with other women. She even commented on it the few times she'd actually talk to me. I attend lots of parties, I go out a lot, and I'd post pictures where I'm embracing various attractive females. It wasn't a difficult thing to do because I actually do have a lot of women in my life, it's just that they're either of the platonic variety or below my general physical standards. Yes, but you completely deflated it with opening up and telling her all of your problems and how you only date one at a time, etc. And then asking her who she is dating...You turned yourself into her male girlfriend...Not trying to be mean. I've made these mistakes in the past. Just know for next time. Given that she never initiated a conversation after January, and that now she's scared enough of me (or whatever the case may be) to block me from Facebook too despite her page being sparse and my never posting on it, I highly doubt she'll ever text me. If we're to talk again, it'll be either because I text her (a bad idea, at least for awhile) or because we run into each other again in person somewhere at a function hosted by a mutual friend/acquaintance. If or when that happens, I think I need to be strong enough to basically just ignore her. I made my interest clear. I tried multiple times to go out with her. She rebuffed me. I can only chase for so long. If she somehow magically changes her mind and decides she wants me again like in the early going, she knows how to reach me. If she deleted me as a contact in her phone, she knows where I hang out, when I hang out there, and which people overlap between our social circles. The probability of this happening is probably very low, but as I said before, I actually have experienced women coming back to me, including women I once scared off significantly worse than this one. You should not be chasing at all. You should use phone/text to set up appointments (dates) only. You build attraction through physical contact only, not having emotional counseling sessions to a woman you don't know through text. If the outcome of your interactions is not leading to dates, you just repeat the same formula: ask to set up a date two times, with one or two weeks in between. If she says "no", by the second attempt, you tell her to contact you if she changes her mind. Leave it at that. No matter how bad it drives you crazy, don't contact her again. It's in her court after that. And the facebook thing, yes that is blessing. When you elevate a female to celebrity status, and reduce yourself to paparazzi (when you start acting like paparazzi, you conjure tabloid-level thoughts) you are setting yourself up to lose control of your masculinity. I hope all of this does not come across as mean. I am trying to give you some tips for improving your interactions with women you are interested in. Unless you have a mental disorder, everything here is a willful behavior, which means your short comings can be fixed. You now have a starting point. Forget about what she did. In this thread you have a lot of information you posted about yourself. Use those as baseline and start improving on them. You can do it Edited May 2, 2013 by TheFinalWord
Author Jefezen Posted May 2, 2013 Author Posted May 2, 2013 (edited) I hope all of this does not come across as mean. I am trying to give you some tips for improving your interactions with women you are interested in. Unless you have a mental disorder, everything here is a willfull behavior, which means your short comings can be fixed. You know have a starting point. Forget about what she did. In this thread you have a lot of information you posted about yourself. Use those as baseline and start improving on them. You can do it I appreciate the feedback. You're right. I need to take ownership for my own errors. But I do think it was still a lost cause by the time I opened up with her about my weaknesses and vulnerabilities. I really wasn't sharing any of that information with her until the quoted conversation, and the quoted conversation occurred after three straight months of repeated rejections and zero in-person interactions. My concern with the "try twice, then invite to contact" strategy is that if I'm not a fairly regular presence in someone's life, I'm not sure I'd be remembered as an option. Also if I'm no longer contacting someone, the woman might think I've lost interest and not contact me for that reason, even if she has interest. Although as I've said before, there have been instances where women I alienated in the past randomly re-appeared with zero coaxing on my part, so I guess it happens. To clarify my point about indifference over the failure of the gift, what I meant is that I don't care about any one specific tactic failing, I care about failing as a whole. I'm not upset that the gift failed to win her heart, I'm upset that I've alienated her more than ever. I also want to add that the reason I'm recounting her faults and her mistakes is because I need to understand that part of what I'm attracted to is an illusion, an idealized vision of what I want her to be, or what I think she could be, not what she necessarily really is; and that's an important step toward transitioning one's self back to reality. My sense of loss should be tempered by what it is exactly I'm losing. Edited May 2, 2013 by Jefezen 1
TheFinalWord Posted May 2, 2013 Posted May 2, 2013 (edited) I appreciate the feedback. You're right. I need to take ownership for my own errors. But I do think it was still a lost cause by the time I opened up with her about my weaknesses and vulnerabilities. I really wasn't sharing any of that information with her until the quoted conversation, and the quoted conversation occurred after three straight months of repeated rejections and zero in-person interactions. My concern with the "try twice, then invite to contact" strategy is that if I'm not a fairly regular presence in someone's life, I'm not sure I'd be remembered as an option. Also if I'm no longer contacting someone, the woman might think I've lost interest and not contact me for that reason, even if she has interest. Although as I've said before, there have been instances where women I alienated in the past randomly re-appeared with zero coaxing on my part, so I guess it happens. To clarify my point about indifference over the failure of the gift, what I meant is that I don't care about any one specific tactic failing, I care about failing as a whole. I'm not upset that the gift failed to win her heart, I'm upset that I've alienated her more than ever. Yes, I agree. I think the initial communications to set up dates was were the problem occurred. Three months of attempts is too much. Two times initiating on your end, is enough to show you are a man that goes for what he wants, without coming across as desperate. Leaving your dignity intact is important for your self-esteem and her perception of your confidence. On the second attempt, you want to stay cool and collected "Give me a call or text if you change your mind! Great talking to you!" Her not knowing if you're interested after some time, will not be a factor if you ended things well. She will have had time to think things over. And she will remember that you accepted her declines with confidence and then did not hound her afterwards. Many men do not take no for an answer so you will stand out believe me haha Even those that do, rarely leave the door open for future communication (most burn bridges). If you close the dating communication in a way that is non-threatening and friendly, she will not be intimidated to contact you. Especially with texting these days. If that does happen, do not get into a phoneship. Let her ask you out. If the conversation goes more than one or two minutes, you tell her you have to go. You don't have to worry about her forgetting about you. One, no matter what not every woman is going to be into you. Plus, you can ask out other women and move on. Don't sit around waiting on any woman that rejects you. That is a major mistake. If she declines your second advance, you leave the invite open, but you personally move on with your life. You never know, years later, you could run into her and if you leave a good last impression she could become interested. Two, many women do not forget especially if a guy left a good last impression. Also, they are not like men that fall in love after seeing her once. Women process emotions slowly. For a guy, we see a woman and like her personality, we are all about it. Women have to talk it over with their girlfriends, discuss, think, etc. On your end you have to do things that cultivate her emotional processing, set dates, be fun, not become her butler, manservant or male girlfriend, show confidence, and not act controlling or needy. The main thing is you have to give women the freedom to love you, which normally means, give them time. Edited May 2, 2013 by TheFinalWord 1
gdes32 Posted May 2, 2013 Posted May 2, 2013 I didn't read the whole thread but from my skimming I can pick these things up instantly. 1. STOP focusing all your attention on a woman in your life. You need hobbies, something, anything. 2. STOP over thinking everything! It doesn't do any good for you or the woman you are pursuing. 3. STOP trying to use logic and reason when it comes to emotion, passion, and desire. 4. STOP with the over gift giving crap. You aren't even dating this girl and you send her a fruit basket after everything she told you? Are you serious? 5. STOP chasing if she isn't showing interest. It looks desperate and weak, two traits that are not attractive to either sex. 6. STOP being such a pacifist. You should have called her out on her **** the first night she left the date without explanation. Better yet, you should have not seen her again right then and there. 7. STOP having useless facebook or text messaging conversations. She either gets to talk to you in person or not at all, at least early in the courtship. 8. STOP putting all your eggs in one basket. Your fascination on a singular person while not in a relationship is off putting. Dating is a numbers games, the oneitis you suffer from is disturbing. 9. If you can't STOP #7 at least STOP with the ridiculous vocabulary and 14 page essay every message. You're intelligent, we all understand that, but women want to be talked to, not lectured at. 10. STOP the thought process of "If I do such and such thing she will really have to like me." It's manipulative and useless. She likes you or she doesn't no matter how much you beg, plead, scream, or buy. 1
Author Jefezen Posted May 2, 2013 Author Posted May 2, 2013 1. STOP focusing all your attention on a woman in your life. You need hobbies, something, anything. 8. STOP putting all your eggs in one basket. Your fascination on a singular person while not in a relationship is off putting. Dating is a numbers games, the oneitis you suffer from is disturbing.I agree it's disturbing and it's why I think I may be afflicted by some form of mental illness. I actually do have many hobbies and interests. I do have a large circle of friends, including women, some of whom desire me romantically. Why am I so obsessed with one specific woman I was never even really with when I have so many other options before me? I'm not a loner who stays home all the time. I'm very socially active. I go out almost every night. I don't struggle to get numbers or first dates. This morning I woke up with a panic attack over the Facebook block and the realization that there will likely never be any kind of relationship with her, not even platonic after the events of this past week. I know that shouldn't be a big deal. Had I followed the advice of others on this forum, we already wouldn't be in contact anymore because I would have asked her out a couple times and then dropped it when she ignored me for three months. But I still feel this emptiness, this profound sense of anxiety. At least when we were Facebook friends, I could keep tabs on her, I could promote the illusion in my head of some kind of connection and future. That's a lot harder to do now when the sole remaining form of communication will be text messaging, something I must resist the urge of doing at least for awhile until she cools down. Being Facebook friends allowed me to feel connected, in some small way, whenever I wanted without her knowing it. That in and of itself is a major problem because I shouldn't have been stalking her page that much in the first place. First, she's hardly active on it anyway, never really adding much, and second, this need of mine to visit it multiple times a day probably contributed toward the burgeoning infatuation. I found that on the rare days when I exhibited the self-discipline not to go on her page, I actually felt a little better. But I was able to do this because in the back of my mind, I knew I could always visit it if I really wanted, at least I had the option. Now that option has been taken away from me, probably never to return even if I do end up talking to her again at some point, and like a druggie in need of a fix, I don't know what I'm supposed to do to get through it.
Author Jefezen Posted May 2, 2013 Author Posted May 2, 2013 It's not always about looks, looks go only skin deep. I rather have an average looking woman is who is compatible with me. I concur, and that's another problem of mine. I seem incapable of realizing that just because a woman shows an early intense interest in me does not make her compatible. I get so excited over an attractive woman coming onto me strong, I consciously overlook all the red flags that scream incompatibility, such as her being a self-confessed party animal who fails in relationships, such as her blowing me off multiple times without believable explanations after receiving secret text messages, such as her incessant chatter about other guys and exes she "loves" and found handsome, such as her unexplained lengthy history of estranging herself from people who were once good friends (I'm not the only person she blocked from Facebook, there've been others, both male and female, including recently), such as her indecision on what she wants out of life (she doesn't know if she wants to stay in the city we live, move to another city in the U.S., return to her home country, stay in her current line of work, pursue some other kind of work, settle now versus settle later, etc.), such as her melancholic coldness which she displayed even when clearly interested in me, her impoliteness, her selfishness, and other littler things like smoking and vegetarianism. All of these things bothered me on some level, and while I cataloged them in my head, I still decided I wanted her regardless mainly because she looked good physically and had once been interested in me. Had this woman not pursued me, I would not be obsessed with her. I likely wouldn't have even asked her out. I was so slow and indifferent toward her, she had to ask me out! I was completely consumed by someone else at the time, much like I am now with this woman. There was nothing about her that particularly excited me. It's amazing how quickly that changed. If an attractive woman doesn't want me to get obsessed with her, she better not ever initiate anything because that seems to be what sets me off into attachment infatuation mode. I so desperately want to be wanted that I can't let go if someone gives me a taste of it.
Author Jefezen Posted May 2, 2013 Author Posted May 2, 2013 I think you need to get offline and keep busy doing other things.I'm unable to concentrate. I do still force myself to go out each night with friends. It helps temporarily, except I maintain my dour mood and still think about her. I try focusing on my work, on reading a book, on errands, but they too are only ephemeral distractions. My mind remains active on her all day and it wakes me up in the middle of the night, and early in the morning. Watching TV shows and movies, listening to music, makes things worse because there are too many potential reminders of my obsession or of what I don't have (a normal romantic relationship) to allow me a respite. You are over thinking things. Relax there will be other women.You're right. There will be other women. I know this intellectually and I've experienced it too. When I look back now on the other three I was obsessed with, I'm able to laugh it off. They have zero pull on me anymore, yet at the time, back when I was dealing with those infatuations, I felt even worse than I do now. I'm able to talk to them again (at their initiation) without any desire for romance. It's so liberating to know that I can have them in my life in a normal way, without any inappropriate attachment anxieties or romantic desires. And my behavior was so appallingly worse with them than with this current one. I'm still in disbelief that they want anything to do with me. I guess the difference might be I had the opportunity to get to know them better than I did the current one, and we shared many good times too. The passage of time without contact allowed them to slowly forget how crazy I got when they pulled away and only remember how well I treated them. Sadly (or positively, depending on how you look at it) my current state actually represents an improvement over where I was at this stage with the previous infatuations. I'm depressed, I'm over-thinking, I'm struggling, I feel miserable, but I'm still somewhat functional and able to socialize. I couldn't even leave the house when things went badly with the other women. I used to be like you being really obsessive and always thinking too much of the situation where it would make me really sick and stressed out. What helped me was crying believe it or not. We are taught men shouldn't cry, however sometimes we need something like that. I'm generally unable to cry. I'm not afraid of it. I'd do it if I could, the tears just don't come out.
Author Jefezen Posted May 2, 2013 Author Posted May 2, 2013 In all honesty it's not about her that you're attracted to. It's the looks and idea. I find that somewhat comforting. If it really were about her, the road to recovery would be a lot more difficult. I'm attracted to her physically. I like that she enthusiastically and assertively pursued me in the beginning when I was indifferent toward her. I liked the possibility for a relationship that this created in my head. I don't think there's anything deeper than that because we really didn't have a whole lot in common, we never truly connected, the "relationship" never took off, and there were (and are) plenty of things about her that I disliked and consciously disregarded. You can't blame her for coming on to you. She didn't know what you're like and kind of person you are. You can't blame someone for your own feelings and actions. If you do then you'll never improve yourself so you can be with someone. I'm not blaming her. I'm pointing out the pattern of my psychological malady, where I latch on to attractive people who come onto me. I don't get obsessed with women I pursue and who reject me, only the ones who pursue me and subsequently reject me. If I go up to an attractive woman and she rejects me flat out, or loses interest after a second date, I'm okay with it; I move on, I might give it a second thought, but not a third one. If an attractive woman comes up to me, asks me out, and then pulls away, I go crazy, first on the inside, and then more outwardly as my frustration boils over to the point where I scare them away. I've already lost them as romantic possibilities by that point regardless, but I'm still not doing myself any favors by clinging to scraps of nothingness and permitting my fantasies to grow out of control. I hate being obsessed. I hate feeling like I can't alter my own thoughts. I hate ceding so much power to someone who deems me insignificant, if not worse. Thank you for the links to those books. I'll check into them. I've read self-help books before and they might help me temporarily in the moment. Ultimately, though, I find that I just have to be patient, let time pass, and wait for the next attractive "victim" to show interest in me.
Author Jefezen Posted May 2, 2013 Author Posted May 2, 2013 Even to this day I get creeped out if a woman approaches me. Why? Those two books have wonderful tools you can use. You have a deep rooted problem. You are pretending that there's no weed in the garden where there is. What I mean if you need to fix root of the problem. Time won't fix that you have to put some effort. I agree I have to invest effort. I have, and I do, I've read many self-help books. I hope the ones you recommend will assist me. I'm just saying that past experience, unfortunately, tells me I don't really recover until several months to years elapse and I find someone new to obsess over. There's been some degree of improvement, though. I tend to get a little less crazy with each successive infatuation. As out of it as I may seem now, I've been significantly worse in the past.
Author Jefezen Posted May 3, 2013 Author Posted May 3, 2013 Change happens on an instant not years.Committing to change can happen in an instant, but emotions don't work like an on/off switch. I can't suddenly forget about someone I'm obsessing over just because I decide to change. If it were really that easy, I don't think anyone would be depressed about anything. Obviously if I could elect happiness, I would choose it in a nanosecond. Of course I want to change. Take tonight, for example. I did a terrific job out on the town. I was assertive. I approached attractive women. I got numbers. I got Facebooks. I received compliments galore. A couple women were all over me. It was great. Yet instead of being thrilled over an objectively successful night, I'm still pining away for the object of my obsession. It makes absolutely no logical sense. I have all kinds of women in my life, several new possibilities tonight, and I remain crestfallen. What I should be is elated and encouraged. I should be telling myself, "To hell with the girl who doesn't want me. It's her loss. I've got plenty of other options." And that wouldn't be convenient escapism, it's actually true.
Author Jefezen Posted May 7, 2013 Author Posted May 7, 2013 UFC, I took out from the library the two Anthony Robbins books you recommended, plus a third one a female friend of mine suggested on first impressions. I'm about 80 pages into Unlimited Power, and I'm finding it extremely helpful and insightful. To avoid forgetting key elements, I'm taking detailed notes as I read each chapter, almost as though I were back in school preparing for a test. I review them and quiz myself periodically to ensure that I'm retaining the lessons. I can't say I'm cured of my crush. I still think about her way too much. I still get jealous and frustrated. I still compare my other female prospects (of which there are many) to her. I still harbor some silly hopes as it pertains to her. But I do feel a little more in control than I did before. A lot of the tips are very illuminating and can be implemented immediately. The desperation is not as acute as it was even just three days ago. I'm able to focus a little more on other people and other things. I'm progressing slowly, but progressing nonetheless. Thank you very much for the excellent book suggestion.
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