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on fairness in relationships - taking feminism a step too far?

candie13

By candie13
in General Relationship Discussion

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candie13 Established Member

candie13

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As you guys may know, I've spent my 20's in two relationships: one of three years, another one of three. The year I turned 30, I broke up from the man I was dating and have been single for the last two - soon three years. In a way, I'll never get the hang of dating again, not fully, anyway. I don't really mind, I got the basics and I use that to "survive" and ensure that the "dating experience" is a pleasant and rewarding one.

 

What shocked me the most, when I was back on the dating scene, was not the lying (direct or hidden) but the lack of consideration. I don't mean personally - I am not as silly as to think those guys were treating me in a certain way and all other women differently.

 

I was laughing with a gf from NYC who was telling me that I was doing the "dating" all wrong, because I was very intransigent. And that made men run away, because I was acting as if I did not need them. :confused:

 

To put it simply:

 

WHILE DATING:

- If you say we are to meet on Wednesday, I expect to hear from you until then; if they contact me the same day, I may or may not available, depending on how he acts towards me and on how much I like the guy

 

- If I receive texts, I will respond reasonable quickly - within the next 30 min. Sometimes sooner, other times later. I hate people who expect quick responses and take forever to respond back

 

- going further, I happen to have a rich social life and intend to keep it that way. I understand that some men are spontaneous and willing to play along, to a certain extent. I think it is totally unfair for the guy to contact me all the time, but not give me a clear idea as to when we are to see eachother next (I mean, when the dating started to get more frequent / serious)

 

MORE SERIOUS DATING / PRE RELATIONSHIP:

- I see, more and more, a lot of men expecting women to "play along" and just be available whenever they can or feel like seeing them. In itself, that is not the end of the world, but I expect for this laxity to go both ways - whenever I feel like seeing him, I should be able to. Well, surprise surprise, nope, this goes in one direction alone

 

- I just feel that, really really, deep down inside, men don't consider women at all. Available. Will always put more effort. Will always be more willing to please. In this dynamic, the notion of "respect" or "consideration" fades completely. I don't mean big things, but ... really. Very few look at women as "people", and treat them with the same respect or consideration as they treat... let's say, their mates.

 

ACTIONS IN RELATIONSHIPS:

- I am not even starting about having an honest talk about their expectations. ok, most men hate, loathe "talking". no obm. But acting fair. Returning favors. Or appreciating the stuff that women do for the, and act with the same gesture - not because "it's fair", but because it is the proper thing to do.

 

I may be off tack... but I sometimes get this awful feeling that men don't really consider women their equal, mentally, intellectually or in relationships. Not really. Deep down inside, they are a subspecie with a vagina and yappy mouth. And additional "maid / cook" function.

 

Ok, I am very very upset right now (major fight with my bf... again - I see MJwashere and xxoo raising their brows, again :p), so I may have left the blutness from "Eastern Europe" come to the surface.

 

I am not generalizing and apologize in advance to those who feel offended. But I say: look at facts.

 

I would love for us to look at actions ONLY, behaviors men engage in prior to dating, or during dating - including relationships and leave out the emotional expectations, implications - this is a different nuance.

 

What's your opinion?

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candie13 Established Member

candie13

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I forgot "my favorite" - going out separately while on an exclusive relationship:

 

- it is excusable / the girl should "understand" if the guy is going to singles parties, because he was "out with his mates"; but if she says "fine, then I will follow my friends, when they go clubbing, instead of going home", then "she's not serious, she still wants to party hard". like, wtf ???

 

I looove that, that's my favorite by far. PErsonally, I've preferred to be single than in this skewed dynamic.

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Mint Sauce Established Member

Mint Sauce

Posted
Posted

2 thoughts:

 

- you may be fishing from the wrong pond

 

- I'm struck by your submissive attitude which seems at odds with your implicit expectation to be able to also set the rules:

 

On the one hand you say:

 

"if you say we are to meet on Wednesday", and "not give me a clear idea as to when we are to meet again" -> you expect him to lead when deciding when to meet.

 

But on the other hand you also want him to follow when you decide you want to see him: "whenever I feel like seeing him, I should be able to".

 

To me this is contradictory behavior, and I would not know how to deal with you.

 

Moreover, I'm shocked by your first statement: if you agreed to meeting on Wednesday, why would you reconsider based on communication in the mean time? That's erratic, flaky behavior. I'd run for the hills.

 

Then again, what do I know, I don't play with the youngsters anymore.

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candie13 Established Member

candie13

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Dea Mint Sauce (lovely name, btw),

 

Kindly be informed that I do not tolerate personal attacks. For your reference :).

 

As to your first statement, you are right to ask for more information:

 

"if you say we are to meet on Wednesday", and "not give me a clear idea as to when we are to meet again" -> you expect him to lead when deciding when to meet

 

I meant that someone may set up a date on a certain next day of the week, but no more follow up. No more contact until Wednesday. I find that rude, if that happens at the beginning of dating, because that guy may or may not keep the date, to begin with.

 

So there are a few options here:

OPTION 1:

So if he contacts me in advance - let's say on Tuesday saying "hey, still up for tomorrow? how about drinks and tapas at this wine bar, around 8", I understand that he was interested. I appreciate that, I assume he liked me and has done all the right things for me to look forward to seeing him again.

 

OPTION 2:

if he contacts me on Wednesday, around lunchtime, again, yellow flag. I may think he is trying to play games and make me hold my breath until I hear from him. I hate waiting :). We're adults, if you're really interested, follow up properly. Otherwise, don't bother wasting your time or mine.

 

OPTION 3:

But if he texts around 5 asking for dinner plans for the same day, I may say I am busy. Again, depending on the guy, I may be very decent and say "sorry, as I did not hear from you, I've made different plans for tonight. However, it would be lovely to catch up early next week, if you are in town"

 

OPTION 4:

He texts on Thursday saying he was busy and asks for another date. This guy... I really don't think I will see him again.

 

Oh, and all those bullet points are not referring to ONE relationship - dear God !!! They are a "collection" from my rather varied misadventures :).

 

To your point:

on the other hand you also want him to follow when you decide you want to see him: "whenever I feel like seeing him, I should be able to".

 

This refers to being in a relationship, when the two partners hang out a lot more (see the different large title on top ??). It's about finding that fine balance between keeping an independent social life and seeing your partner. And not one at the expense of the other - one partner expecting that the other one would switch all his or her meetings with friends to be free when their SO asks them to. Or if the partner really insists to see his or her SO, to be willing to accept their presence - for a drink, half an hour, whatever - irrelevant of the people s/he is socializing with, when the partners shows up. Again, same treatment for both parties would seem acceptable.

 

Moreover, I'm shocked by your first statement: if you agreed to meeting on Wednesday, why would you reconsider based on communication in the mean time? That's erratic, flaky behavior. I'd run for the hills.

 

Well, Mint Sauce, luckily for you, I am not dating you, am I :) ? I would not reconsider my desire to potentially date you (;)) based on the communication, but on how one manages the communication. When. How. What tone. That speaks millions about how he views me / his date. The subject of this thread is CONSIDERATION and RESPECT. If you think that, IYO, this is way too "sensitive" (I think it is, by your general tone"), I respect that. I am not looking to get out of a potential date. If I don't like a guy, I won't say "yes" to a second or third date. So if I said yes, it's because I find the guy interesting.

 

However, I don't want to be taken for granted either. I have a busy life. People travel. Work hard. Have meeting. Meet other people. IMHO, confirming the date before is a matter of "dating etiquette", because one acknowledges that their partner also has a life / career / friends / family / job that can interfere.

 

Then again, what do I know, I don't play with the youngsters anymore.

I'm actually 32, but thank you :) !

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candie13 Established Member

candie13

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2 thoughts:

 

- you may be fishing from the wrong pond

 

- I'm struck by your submissive attitude which seems at odds with your implicit expectation to be able to also set the rules:

 

Sorry, don't understand what you mean by "fishing from the wrong pond".

 

As for my submissive attitude, yes, you spotted that correctly. If the guy is interested, he should ask me out. Initiate contact at the beginning of the dating process, until I feel comfortable to do the same - I am a bit more shy and would appreciate mild manifestations of confirmation of interest from the gentleman's side. Or at least some attention.

Keenly Established Member

Keenly

Posted
Posted

You seem like your just too high maintenance for most men I know to deal with. Relationships and dating shouldn't have rules and stipulations like "if he doesn't contact me before a date then I won't go" personally I find that a little ridiculous.

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candie13 Established Member

candie13

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Don't know, man... if he says "let's meet on Wednesday", then I will expect him to contact me again, to reconfirm.

 

If he says "meet me on Wednesday, at 20:00, at this bar / place / restaurant", then no further confirmation needed.

 

I take your point. You say high maintenance, I say half the guys I met treated their dates with disrespect, and really different from how they'd treat their mates. MAybe 'cause there a lot of women taking any type of attention... dunno.

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candie13 Established Member

candie13

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anyway, I vented, it felt good :D :D :D ! I was sort of angry when starting this thread, not much sleep lately :o.

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sweetkiwi Established Member

sweetkiwi

Posted
Posted

I understand completely. It's the mind game crap. Not everyone plays and it's not gender based.

 

A friend of my mother's wants to date her. So last night they were supposed to have dinner and watch a movie. A couple hours before dinner my mom texts him and says, "So what time should I expect you?"

 

To which he replies, "I'll let you know if I go out later..."

 

My mom said, "No it's fine I will make other plans."

 

Then who shows up hours later downstairs from the house....that guy. Wanting to hangout because he was rejected.

 

:lmao:

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candie13 Established Member

candie13

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your mom is waaaaaay too nice. In case I am inviting a guy for dinner, I'll politely ask if 8 is ok with him.

 

The conversation between them is, indeed, very precious, haha!

 

You know, I really don't mind teaching a guy how to behave - because that's what your mom did, she is teaching him not to take her for granted. I understand that some women are just too happy to have a guy wanting to come over, to begin with, so men may be spoiled, that way.

 

But adding one plus one plus one.... makes one see the bigger picture. Ain't nothing wrong with trying to get the milk for free... if it works, it works, good for the guy. But if it doesn't... then yeah, they'd better get their act together.

 

Smart woman, you mom, I like her! I especially like that she didn't lose her temper, have a fit and scream at the guy. She responded on the exact same level.. and got the guy on the doorsteps! I guess if the guy didn't care, he wouldn't have really bothered ;) !

Got it Established Member

Got it

Posted
Posted

I expect the same treatment going both ways. I am female and I agree with the other posters, I think it may be a little unreasonable that once a date is confirmed that the other party is obligated to know to contact you in the meantime unless you explicitly state it.

 

I get tired of the assumptions on things and so I tend to just cut through the bullsh*t. If I want something I just say it. When I was younger I tended to want a guy to lead and do what I wanted but I wouldn't express it. Now, I just state it and then expect that behavior or a decision on a compromise.

 

I don't assume exclusivity but once stated I assume an agreement to it. We will set up our own perimeters and agreements on it.

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candie13 Established Member

candie13

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Posted
I expect the same treatment going both ways. I am female and I agree with the other posters, I think it may be a little unreasonable that once a date is confirmed that the other party is obligated to know to contact you in the meantime unless you explicitly state it.

 

I generally agree with your post.

 

Ok, nice first date, you have a good feeling. The guy says he'd like to see you on Wednesday and then gets lost. Are you honestly saying you don't expect him to drop you a text in the mean time - and I mean before Wednesday - to give you all the details? Like really? how about Wednesday? Like when would it be acceptable? Lunchtime? Afternoon? Evening? Right before dinner?

 

Personally, what I did, was I dropped the guy a text on Wednesday, saying that I assume there was not a date anymore for the evening... I was right, he was out of town. And because there were "no firm details" behind the date, I wasn't supposed to act as if there was no proper date on Wednesday :eek:. Oh, and we did talk during the week too.

 

Looking back, I realize I should not have texted at all. Not choosing is a choice, in itself.

EasyHeart Established Member

EasyHeart

Posted
Posted

WHILE DATING:

- If you say we are to meet on Wednesday, I expect to hear from you until then; if they contact me the same day, I may or may not available, depending on how he acts towards me and on how much I like the guy

 

- If I receive texts, I will respond reasonable quickly - within the next 30 min. Sometimes sooner, other times later. I hate people who expect quick responses and take forever to respond back

 

- going further, I happen to have a rich social life and intend to keep it that way. I understand that some men are spontaneous and willing to play along, to a certain extent. I think it is totally unfair for the guy to contact me all the time, but not give me a clear idea as to when we are to see eachother next (I mean, when the dating started to get more frequent / serious)

 

MORE SERIOUS DATING / PRE RELATIONSHIP:

- I see, more and more, a lot of men expecting women to "play along" and just be available whenever they can or feel like seeing them. In itself, that is not the end of the world, but I expect for this laxity to go both ways - whenever I feel like seeing him, I should be able to. Well, surprise surprise, nope, this goes in one direction alone

 

- I just feel that, really really, deep down inside, men don't consider women at all. Available. Will always put more effort. Will always be more willing to please. In this dynamic, the notion of "respect" or "consideration" fades completely. I don't mean big things, but ... really. Very few look at women as "people", and treat them with the same respect or consideration as they treat... let's say, their mates.

Most men do all of these things. The ones that don't can do it because women let them get away with it.

 

If you don't like the way a man treats you, the solution is to not date him.

EasyHeart Established Member

EasyHeart

Posted
Posted

Oh, and just on the off-chance that someone doesn't know this yet:

 

ATTENTION WOMEN: YOU CAN'T CHANGE MEN!!!!

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candie13 Established Member

candie13

Posted
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Most men do all of these things. The ones that don't can do it because women let them get away with it.

 

If you don't like the way a man treats you, the solution is to not date him.

 

The thing is, they don't pull these tricks from the beginning. My current date took two months, and then pulled the "spontaneity" trick on me. I was blocked :confused:.

 

I mean, he wants to see me all the time, which is great. But then, he also wants to see his friends, which sounds more than reasonable. But... he wants to have a separate social life too - more than fair, of course!!

 

It's just that... please please please, let me know when you want to see your mates. In advance, 'cause I also want to see mine. Concept totally new to this guy. Jeeeeesh!

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candie13 Established Member

candie13

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Oh, and just on the off-chance that someone doesn't know this yet:

 

ATTENTION WOMEN: YOU CAN'T CHANGE MEN!!!!

 

God, far from me, such presumptuousness!

 

However, education and respect is a different matter. A person won't treat you as you deserve to be treated, but as you allow them to. And that is irrespective of gender.

 

What I am trying to say is that sometimes, behavior may come from what has been know as "socially acceptable", but other times, it may simply come from values, from believes. It's the second part that makes me really wonder - sort of really irritates me.

Eggplant Established Member

Eggplant

Posted
Posted
- If I receive texts, I will respond reasonable quickly - within the next 30 min. Sometimes sooner, other times later. I hate people who expect quick responses and take forever to respond back
I feel 12 hours is a reasonable response time. Just because a person possesses a cell phone does not mean he or she must be on-call to the world at any point in his or her day.
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candie13 Established Member

candie13

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my best friend hates phones. I think if she could not own a phone, she would not. This being said, she is good at keeping in touch with people she cares for and lives for today - the moment (as opposed to those always texting, who aren't really there, not really spending time with those around). So I understand your point.

 

But... answering after 2 -3 - 5 days... hum, even that I understand, but it all depends on which rhythm of communication was initially installed and on how far/well the relationship progressed.

 

one knows what's fair. I remember dating this guy - and I wanted to be really careful, and take it slow, especially since we both had separate vacation plans. He called me his gf since the very beginning, was very serious about introducing me to his friends, asked me if I wanted to meet his family... seemed legit. The holiday time came and his text were from once per day, to once every two - three days, once every 5 days... I said to myself "thx, but no thx". Of course, when he came back he was expecting to pick things up from where he'd left them.... he thought wrong!

 

Even with my friends, no even with acquaintances, I either respond the same day / the next day, or don't bother answering at all. It just... didn't feel right. Turns out I was right. Next time, I did take it a lot slower and had less violent surprises - because one always has "surprises" when dating.

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