There's an argument for that again & again & again

[ComingInHot]

I believe I have seen a pattern of sorts over the time I have been reading here on LS. It is with the people involved in an A.

 

Many times a thread will start either here or in the OW/OM forum with an experience, example idea leading to a question. (because, duh... that's what forum discussions are all about... ya I know*).

 

Regardless of which "side" posts, there will invariably be an argument to the contrary.

 

Example;

"why on earth would a W stay w/her H after repetitive D-days? Who puts up with that?"

Like Clock-work, a comment will be posted stating something like,

"Why on earth would a OW/OM try and stay in an A with a MM after repetitive D-Days? Who puts up with that"?

 

Example #2;

"How can you for one moment believe MM/MW didn't Lie to you if you acknowledge he is lying to own W"?

Clock-work Response,

"Why would you think MM/MW would lie to me when He had No reason to lie to me because I already Knew he was M?"

 

So, I see banter like this go back and forth a-lot. Sometimes it is really good, healthy knowledgeable input and other times it is kind of down right rude.

I guess I look at this type of thing and wonder, "is there an argument ( a good one) for Everything in A's?!?"

 

I do understand a little better where the OW/OM is coming from (at least I pretend I do*) and I can empathize with the pain and hurt they are feeling. But when it comes right down to it, I rely on the stability of Right & Wrong.

When it comes to infidelity, cheating and A's, it is Wrong. It is not subjective, or debatable or dependent on what one's moral code is or isn't. I don't believe it can be justified or rationalized to be "Right" in any way.

 

The OW/OM I have had the honor to meet here on LS and learn the most from, are the ones who do Not justify why their A is okay but who say, I know it's wrong, I acknowledge that and have decided that for now or forever, I am going to do this A for the mere fact I love MM.

I think accepting that it is wrong has actually enabled some OW/OM to speak more freely about their experience and offer insight and answers to questions so many BS's have.

 

sorry so long everyone* but I'd love to hear your responses.

[ComingInHot]

Nofool4you, wrote, "I can if they did NOT know the person they were getting involved with from the get go was married. "

 

AGREED 100% !! I think that is so incredibly abhorrent! I can't even imagine how that must feel for someone who at that point is as completely innocent and victimized as the BS.

[seren]

CIH, there is a pattern of late, where there are so many sock puppets popping up it feels like Sesame Street at times. It has felt like a drive by lately and I assume things must be quiet on another site, or things are taken there and people drop by just to needle people who are trying to make sense of the hurt A's cause. Which is a shame as there have been some good and helpful, non needling threads over the past months. The same questions get posed, the same back and fro derails what could be helpful meaningful discussions and so it goes on.

 

TBH, I don't think I will ever get to understand how it can be right to knowingly hurt another, all the pseudo psychobabble trundled out ad nauseum, all the statistics, research and explanation can never, IMO, explain how it is OK to gain hapiness at the expense of another's pain. It jars with my sense of right and wrong, to then come onto a site where support for those who might be newly experiencing infidelity and not have a degree of empathy is outside what I value in myself or others. I have over 25 years experience working with people who have experienced trauma and wouldn't dream of using what I learned from a book or Googled to answer a post made by someone who is hurt and looking for answers.

 

 

Self actualisation, for example, would have me feel I had realised my maximum potential, if that means being OK to knowingly contribute to the hurt of another, then I hope to never reach that stage of self development. There are enough theoretical or research papers around to use and twist to suit an argument or reason to explain behaviour. Personally speaking, I'll just stick to my own code of never knowingly hurting or contributing to the hurt of another simply to get my own needs met.

 

I have always said that I truly get that some people are married to the wrong people, that marriages and relationships can be destructive, that some people meet another that they are more suited to and love. It's not rocket science, neither is it rocket science to see that in these instances the unhappy person walks away from the unhappy situation. To continue to lie in one or both knowing that one or both people will be hurt (such a small word) and will be hurt because they love and believe is, again IMO, not a character trait I place any value in and am glad it is not in my make up to be this way.

 

The same arguments do the rounds over and over, until one or the other either has it happen to them, becomes distanced from it all and then new people (or sock puppets) come to bring it all back to the beginning again. I cannot say that I think that there is any good to come from an A, by their very nature they will result in a person being denied informed choice, I cannot understand how anyone thinks that is what they would want for themselves, or another. I just wish that there wasn't such vitriol or the feeling that sometimes posts degenerate into a sort of sport where hurtful, downright horrible posts that add nothing helpful are made and then I wonder, just what is the point.

[Toddbt12y1]

Unfortunately, they do not get no mercy from me. Unless as Nofool has said, they were unaware. Then I feel bad for them as they too were mislead

 

 

Those who aren't do not get mercy. I already got enough infractions cause of my attitude towards them. You made me think of how awful I am...really at responding to these people. Clearly, I am mean an offer them no advise, that will not result in some arguement. Perhaps it is my age, lack of intelligence (compared to you all, it sure is lacking), or my own past hurt and how I see the pain these people potentially will cause another living, breathing human being.

 

I will advise the ones who knew nothing. I guess I truly lack respect...but when talking about responding respectfully I always think of that person, who is totally unaware of any affair. Doesn't have support of LS or even knows about it...if I respected someone who intently hurt them...what does that say about my respect and understanding of their pain?

 

I'm weird like that.

[ComingInHot]

Seren,

Have you EVER written a bad post?**

Self actualization? From reading what it means to some, it looks more like a dressed up way to (like you said) settle for less and become complacent in striving to do the right thing against adversity or selfish gain.

 

 

Smoocherific,

I wish upon wish! You never had been hurt the way you were. I have enjoyed & gained understanding from just about every response you have posted*

Please stay here for a while as I see you as a bridge of understanding between these two perspectives.

[krazikat]

CIH said: I do understand a little better where the OW/OM is coming from (at least I pretend I do*) and I can empathize with the pain and hurt they are feeling. But when it comes right down to it, I rely on the stability of Right & Wrong.*When it comes to infidelity, cheating and A's, it is Wrong. It is not subjective, or debatable or dependent on what one's moral code is or isn't. I don't believe it can be justified or rationalized to be "Right" in any way.

 

Agree^^^^^

Reading the threads on LS has helped me gain empathy for the ow/om who are suffering...so many stories of A devastation from both sides. And I always think, well, if you hadnt let mp in, never said yes to a drink or a date, just turned them away immediatly because they are m, or didnt pursue them because they were hot or whatever, then this hurt for you would have been prevented. So the love reason of justification doesnt excuse the behavior...in most cases the love did not arise until after the A started...so dont date a mm/mw and save yourself the trauma...that is self preservation!!!

 

I have many guy friends. Some hot, successful, etc. But they are just friends, and I can value a friendship without having to have sex...what is it with having to pursue sexual relationships because you find someone attractive? There are many beautiful people in this world, so what?

 

With that said, I do feel for these op, many who have foo or are lost or broken in another way, damn life is hard enough! Why make it harder?

[ComingInHot]

Toddbt, wrote " Those who aren't do not get mercy. I already got enough infractions cause of my attitude towards them. You made me think of how awful I am...really at responding to these people. Clearly, I am mean an offer them no advise, that will not result in some arguement. Perhaps it is my age, lack of intelligence (compared to you all, it sure is lacking), or my own past hurt and how I see the pain these people potentially will cause another living, breathing human being."

 

Hey Toddbt, for what it's worth, I think you are a-lot smarter than you think or let on.

Your voice is important and I'm glad you're here.

I Do believe in mercy and forgiveness.

And I try to respond respectfully (I fail at times too) to those I honestly have no respect for because it's the better thing to do.

 

lil' secret Todd?! I envy people like you who can just stick it out there and call sh*t by its name... "sh*t" . Whereas my heart is in offering a more gentle approach, while maintaining honesty.

 

So you just stay right where you are and be you regardless. Maybe you can unload something negative in exchange for something positive

[Toddbt12y1]

Toddbt, wrote " Those who aren't do not get mercy. I already got enough infractions cause of my attitude towards them. You made me think of how awful I am...really at responding to these people. Clearly, I am mean an offer them no advise, that will not result in some arguement. Perhaps it is my age, lack of intelligence (compared to you all, it sure is lacking), or my own past hurt and how I see the pain these people potentially will cause another living, breathing human being."

 

Hey Toddbt, for what it's worth, I think you are a-lot smarter than you think or let on.

Your voice is important and I'm glad you're here.

I Do believe in mercy and forgiveness.

And I try to respond respectfully (I fail at times too) to those I honestly have no respect for because it's the better thing to do.

 

lil' secret Todd?! I envy people like you who can just stick it out there and call sh*t by its name... "sh*t" . Whereas my heart is in offering a more gentle approach, while maintaining honesty.

 

So you just stay right where you are and be you regardless. Maybe you can unload something negative in exchange for something positive

 

Oh? Wow! I haven't had a compliment this good ever...on here! I deeply appreciate it! and I do like your caring nature; you seem to have a desire to get down to the roots of something, in a deep, graceful manner. I enjoy your posts...why I cannot help but comment on them. guess the world needs negatives some and positives some. hugs* ty!

[BetrayedH]

I certainly get frustrated with the justifications for lies. And for the justification for lack of common decency. There's a never-ending spin (typically requiring you to tie your brain into a pretzel) that somehow makes it ok. But at the end of the day, someone is being intentionally denied informed choice about the one life they have to live. And it's usually being done to them by the person that they trust most (and with the help of someone that knows of the joint commitments). There are other ethical choices available but they're not chosen quite simply because of selfishness and cowardice.

 

What I will say is that I still prefer respectful dialogue because for some of these people, there is hope for change. Yesterday morning a wayward poster was chased off by denigrating comments. I just fail to understand what help that is whatsoever. Given the opportunity, I (and others) might have been able to respectfully and effectively get that poster to stop her affair and potentially even confess it to her BS. By the time I got my response typed, she was saying she wanted her account closed. If you care about the BS, keep the wayward here and engaged. Instead, she is gone and that thread is history. Most of the people that come here (waywards and others) do so because of a crisis of conscience.

 

I don't blame the posters that just want to call a spade a spade. I get that. But what good does it do to vent your anger ere at someone who did not betray you? You have a right to do it but what purpose does it serve? My intent is to try to influence a positive outcome. Calling out the behavior has its place in that effort but how many waywards do we get here? One or two a week? And how long do they stay? Instead of engaging in healthy dialogue, they get called every name in the book and high-tail it outta here (and right back to their affair). I just wish we were collectively smarter about what we are doing here.

 

As for the active and unremorseful ones, I do the best I can to steer clear but will confront crap arguments when I see them. Why avoid them? Because I can't influence them. I tend to focus on the people I can help.

[who_am_i]

Reading the threads on LS has helped me gain empathy for the ow/om who are suffering...so many stories of A devastation from both sides. And I always think, well, if you hadnt let mp in, never said yes to a drink or a date, just turned them away immediatly because they are m, or didnt pursue them because they were hot or whatever, then this hurt for you would have been prevented. So the love reason of justification doesnt excuse the behavior...in most cases the love did not arise until after the A started...so dont date a mm/mw and save yourself the trauma...that is self preservation!!!

 

I completely agree with you. If I hadn't let him in then I wouldn't feel this awful.

That said, I'm finding that there are more then a hand full of women on LS that also had to learn this lesson the heard way. Not every OW makes a habit out of pursuing married man after married man and they are not all trying to "steal" someone else's husband.

 

I've never made excuses for getting involved with a married man. I own that decision and the guilt that comes with it sits squarely on my shoulders every single day. Ironically, I thought xMM wouldn't be able to get too close and that meant I didn't need to worry about being hurt again. But as we all know...that is far from the case. Every morning when I open my eyes and he is the first thing that comes to mind I wish I could take it all back.

 

I wish that more BS would give OW like me a chance before assuming that we are such terrible people. Each time I write a response to someones thread I spend so much time trying to chose the right words for fear that someone is going to be offended by me when really the last thing I'm here for is to offend. I am just trying to find some peace and understanding in the mess that I...yes I...caused myself and the family of xMM. I am not a bad person...I just made a terrible, terrible decision...and I know that there are more just like me.

[krazikat]

I completely agree with you. If I hadn't let him in then I wouldn't feel this awful.

That said, I'm finding that there are more then a hand full of women on LS that also had to learn this lesson the heard way. Not every OW makes a habit out of pursuing married man after married man and they are not all trying to "steal" someone else's husband.

 

I've never made excuses for getting involved with a married man. I own that decision and the guilt that comes with it sits squarely on my shoulders every single day. Ironically, I thought xMM wouldn't be able to get too close and that meant I didn't need to worry about being hurt again. But as we all know...that is far from the case. Every morning when I open my eyes and he is the first thing that comes to mind I wish I could take it all back.

 

I wish that more BS would give OW like me a chance before assuming that we are such terrible people. Each time I write a response to someones thread I spend so much time trying to chose the right words for fear that someone is going to be offended by me when really the last thing I'm here for is to offend. I am just trying to find some peace and understanding in the mess that I...yes I...caused myself and the family of xMM. I am not a bad person...I just made a terrible, terrible decision...and I know that there are more just like me.

 

Thats what I was trying to encompass but maybe didnt say right...there are the op who were wooed (pursued, asked out for just a drink, etc) and then those who pursued. I think that I have seen a variety of op in the threads I have read. I definately know that not all op are the same, not all are out hunting mp, some are even flat out tricked by mp who claims they are single. Just like there are different mp...the serials, the one time offenders who had a ons, and the ltr. And even different bs, the ones who are dealing with any of the above op and/or mp at all levels of healing, some rug sweep, some accept, some leave, etc. Basically, many different stories and twists leading to the same destination.

 

You seem to own what you did, and know it is something you ultimately didnt like. That says alot about how have taken what happened to you and learned from it what you will and wont accept. You have much input and support to give, please dont think I am plopping all op into one pot. We are all different, learn our own lessons, live how we live. Learning and improving only helps us get/stay on the right path.

 

I have seen various levels of harshness in some threads, but keep on posting. I think that most of us here enjoy and learn from each other, and I know reading op posts has helped me heal, not see my h fow as some evil b***h but as a hurting person, even if she is coming at me all kinds of wrong. At the end of the day, her actions are not what hurt me, my h actions were. She is responsible for deciding to involve herself with mm, and then getting all hateful with me when it ended...but at the end of the day, she faces the consequences of her choices, she can hate me all she wants because my h dumped her,and I dont need to hate her to make that any more real for her.

 

Wasted energy. If I am not going to hate her, I certainly would have no reason to be hateful to any poster here, but I do say what I think.