No need for external validation?

[Praying4Peace]

A question for anyone brave enough to take a stab.

 

If you get to the point where you don't need any external validation (you don't need anyone to tell you you are right, that you are special, that they love you, that they believe you to be worthy, that you are needed, that you are valued, etc.) then aren't you just a totally self-centered, undiagnosed, personality disorder?

 

Aren't you just stuck up and full of yourself?

 

Isn't that kind of what a Narcissist is?

Edited April 16, 2013 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[MissBee]

A question for anyone brave enough to take a stab.

 

If you get to the point where you don't need any external validation (you don't need anyone to tell you you are right, that you are special, that they love you, that they believe you to be worthy, that you are needed, that you are valued, etc.) then aren't you just a totally self-centered, undiagnosed, personality disorder?

 

Aren't you just stuck up and full of yourself?

 

Isn't that kind of what a Narcissist is?

 

I don't think desiring external validation is in and of itself bad. We're social creatures, we all want to be treated specially, like we matter, like we're worthy etc. and we learn about ourselves from other people.

 

I think a chronic need for external validation is problematic though and looks very different from the normal levels of it we all possess.

Edited April 16, 2013 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[Praying4Peace]

I don't know. Caring what others think can sometimes be a good thing if you are a total jerk and you need a wake up call.

 

I'd be wary of someone who said they didn't need love or approval from the outside world at all. It just seems strange and inhuman.

 

I get the Narcissist thing. The ex-MM in my situation was so full of confidence. He was good at everything and thrived on proving it to people. He could not be seen as not being able to do something or as a 'bad person'. But in private he'd make statements that seemed to me to reek of insecurity. I often asked him "I can't figure out if you're cocky or if you're insecure." He'd look at me and say "I'm really very insecure."

[MissBee]

I think a chronic need for external validation is problematic though and looks very different from the normal levels of it we all possess.

 

I meant to say an *acute need for external validation is what is problematic.

[Praying4Peace]

 

I think a chronic need for external validation is problematic though and looks very different from the normal levels of it we all possess.

 

.

 

I agree that if its chronic its a problem. But why do people assume if you are in an A or have had an A you must have a chronic need for external validation? It may have been a one time thing. But here it seems like anyone in an A must have a chronic need.

 

Thanks for your insights.

[AnotherRound]

If someone needs external validation to define themselves, then yes, it's a problem. Everyone likes to have validation - but if someone's truth can be changed by other people easily, then their self is not strong, and that can be extremely dangerous.

 

There isn't a person alive who doesn't like to hear good things about themselves - but to "need" it to define yourself is where it becomes an issue. If you can't keep a pretty good idea of who you are, regardless of what is going on around you, then you are "vulnerable" to external validation and that's dangerous.

 

Think about peer pressure. If a person is strong in who they are, secure in what they know and believe, then peer pressure is easily brushed off. They aren't convinced to partake in things simply bc everyone is doing it - and they can exclude themselves with confidence and without fear of what others think. If someone is vulnerable to it, then they have no idea of who they are - that's why teenagers are so susceptible to it, they are still trying to figure out who they are (most of them).

 

If your elders did a good job of raising you, you should have a pretty good idea of your strengths and weaknesses. You shouldn't need anyone else to tell you what they are, as you are well aware. Your "self" should be strong and able to self- soothe - meaning, you could continue to function and know yourself well and confidently, even if deserted on an island with nobody else around. Your idea of "you" wouldn't change, bc you are well in touch with it, you have good insight skills and your truth is close to the actual truth.

 

Look up Johari's Window - it's relevant. People who have strong insight and good introspection skills, are able to see MUCH more of their true selves than those that do not. They are less susceptible to outside forces, they are more able to self soothe, and they are much more likely to succeed in life and relationships bc they are strong in their "self". Some people will never achieve this - and never achieve self-actualization (Maslow's hierarchy of needs) - and once you know the terms, those people are EASILY spotted from a few simple words or thoughts.

 

There is a difference between needing external validation and not taking in constructive criticism. If someone tries to tell me that I'm not sensitive enough - I can take that in, try to adjust my behaviors, etc. But, if someone tells me that I'm not a "good" person based on some moral code that they have set up themselves, I will know that they are wrong bc I am quite familiar with what type of person I am at my core. My self is strong - and not susceptible to to outside opinions.

 

Of course, I was always the kid that stood up to the bullies, never gave in to peer pressure, and honestly laughed at those that tried to "shame" me into doing things that I knew were wrong. The adults in my life did a fantastic job of teaching me early on that I knew myself, and knew right from wrong, and helped raise me to be a strong self individual - and I'm thankful for that. Not that I don't sometimes make bad decisions, but I do so with full knowledge and completely voluntarily - not bc I feel forced or shamed.

 

Also, I would suggest you look up some info on personality disorders. Having a strong self is pretty much the opposite of a personality disorder, as a weak self, or low self-esteem is pretty much needed for EVERY personality disorder (yes, even NPD).

[MissBee]

I agree that if its chronic its a problem. But why do people assume if you are in an A or have had an A you must have a chronic need for external validation? It may have been a one time thing. But here it seems like anyone in an A must have a chronic need.

 

Thanks for your insights.

 

I think many of the people cheating are indeed looking for attention/sex/love/admiration/validation elsewhere, rightly or wrongly.

 

I don't think why every person has an A is for the same reasons and I also think there are situations/issues which differ between the MP/one cheating on someone else and the OW/OM. External validation might be bundled it up in there but certainly may not be.

[jlola]

Self validation comes from within and is permanent. External validation is always temporary.

 

Narcissists are insecure people that need external validation. They simply compensate by pretending to be full of confidence.

 

Narcissist live off validation of others. It's called narcissistic supply. They need people to validate them. This is why narcissist show such a different side of themselves when they seek their prey. They become exactly who they think you want them to be in order to get their supply. They show charm and selflessness. They want you to want them, flatter them,fall in love with them and let them know how wonderful they are. They are also called emotional vampires.

[Lillyfree]

Narcissist live off validation of others. It's called narcissistic supply. They need people to validate them. This is why narcissist show such a different side of themselves when they seek their prey. They become exactly who they think you want them to be in order to get their supply. They show charm and selflessness. They want you to want them, flatter them,fall in love with them and let them know how wonderful they are. They are also called emotional vampires.

 

...and once you've been a victim of a narcissist, you will understand exactly why they're called that. they will suck out any happiness and self esteem and leave you in a heap when they're done.

[thefooloftheyear]

I don't think desiring external validation is in and of itself bad. We're social creatures, we all want to be treated specially, like we matter, like we're worthy etc. and we learn about ourselves from other people.

 

I think a chronic need for external validation is problematic though and looks very different from the normal levels of it we all possess.

 

PS: this doesn't seem to be an OW/OM specific topic though, so the mods may move it elsewhere.

 

Agree..

 

Its a basic human need and nothing to be ashamed about....Just like anything eles, if it becomes misdirected or abused it can become a problem.

 

TFOY

[BetrayedH]

I think the desire for external validation is certainly normal. While we may be confident in ourselves, we love hearing it from someone else. It's more convincing than our own self-analysis (or at least, reaffirms it). If we had zero need for external validation, I'm not sure we would ever enter into an intimate relationship with anyone except perhaps for physical sex or procreation.

 

When the pursuit of external validation causes you to do things that are against your own moral code, that's when it becomes unhealthy. A lot of APs say things like, "I never saw myself doing something like this." That's a big red flag for me.

 

Without trying to denigrate anyone here, I see a lot of waywards or other persons that change their moral code once they find themselves embarking on an affair path. Suddenly the lines in the sand tend to shift and compartmentalization and/or rationalization begins. Based on the number of them that say they would never be caught up in an affair again, I think most people see affairs as horribly destructive and against their own moral and ethical standards. So why would anyone do such a thing? It's because the need for external validation has become "excessive."

 

I do think that there are other factors such as severe conflict-avoidance (an inability to resolve resentment that has built up in them) and an over-developed sense of entitlement (where the AP may not even have the standards of which I speak) but an excessive need for external validation wraps up the big three. Put them together and it's a solid recipe for some poor decision making.

[Got it]

Self validation comes from within and is permanent. External validation is always temporary.

 

Narcissists are insecure people that need external validation. They simply compensate by pretending to be full of confidence.

 

No, self validation is not permanent as people's lives change. Like most things with humans, it is fluid so a person, at one time of there life could be completely fulfilled by self validation and then need some external validation later on due to change in circumstances.

 

And yes I would agree that someone that does not need ANY external validation is antisocial in some manner or shows some sort of behavioral concerns. Either end of the spectrum would be abnormal and unhealthy.

[Got it]

And let me tell you about real life and the human population.

 

People are fluid, every day new events happen around us and cause external and internal changes. With these events, we adjust our thinking, feelings, and outlook by either adapting or becoming more ingrained in our prior beliefs.

 

The only things constant are taxes and death. Everything else changes. As does the need for any type of validation, external or internal.

[Summer Breeze]

And let me tell you about real life and the human population.

 

People are fluid, every day new events happen around us and cause external and internal changes. With these events, we adjust our thinking, feelings, and outlook by either adapting or becoming more ingrained in our prior beliefs.

 

The only things constant are taxes and death. Everything else changes. As does the need for any type of validation, external or internal.

 

Absolutely. Looking back at my many years I can say the time I NEEDED external validation more than any other was when I left the H who cheated on me. I didn't have a clue what it was all about then but I craved to be ok and I loved having men talk to me and be flirtatious. I didn't act on anything because my primary concern was my D but it all buoyed me up and helped me build up my selfworth. I was left horribly vulnerable by his actions and I walked away with questions I'd never get answers for and something had to fill all doubts and help me make myself whole again.

[USMCHokie]

I don't want to touch this one....

 

 

BUT.....

 

 

...has anyone actually defined external validation for the purposes of this discussion?

[Praying4Peace]

I don't want to touch this one....

 

 

BUT.....

 

 

...has anyone actually defined external validation for the purposes of this discussion?

 

How about "that warm fuzzy feel good happy feeling you get from the actions/words of another RATHER than from your own beliefs about yourself?"

 

Ex: I am pretty and smart bc HE says and thinks I am. If he later says I am not, then I am not. Compared to: I look in the mirror and I see my life's accomplishments and I come to the conclusion that all evidence shows that I am pretty and smart."

[Got it]

External Validation

 

"Self-esteem is the greatest sickness known to man or woman because it's conditional."--Albert Ellis, Ph.D.

 

If you google external validation, you come up with a lot of hits asserting it’s a bad thing. Or at the very least, it’s not as good as ‘self-esteem’.

 

Nathaniel Branden, a psychotherapist who received his Ph.D in the 70’s, called external validation "pseudo self-esteem." He made the common argument of "true self-esteem" being derived from internal sources, such as self-responsibility and self-sufficiency. He defined true self-esteem as "...the experience of being competent to cope with the basic challenges of life and being worthy of happiness". (1)

 

Yet external validation is something children need. Adults with mental health problems (most famously, borderline personality disorder) may not have been nurtured in that area when they were children, or even as adults, and so might need such validation in their adult years.

 

External validation may be necessary in the development of self-esteem; Encouragement and approval most definitely do aid in building self-esteem traits.

Linehan, the famous validator, proposed six levels of validation: listening nonjudgmentally, accurate reflection, mind-reading, or articulating unspoken thoughts and feelings, understanding the historical background of a behaviour, confirming thoughts, behaviours and feelings based on current circumstances and radical genuineness, which requires the therapist to speak authentically to the patient and his/her family (2, 3).

 

Indeed, Linehan is such a proponent of validation for treatment, she developed DBT (dialectical behaviour therapy) which is grounded in two core concepts - validation and problem solving.

 

External validation is not bad. Nor is it dysfunctional or overrated. It is simply a necessary component in the development of self-worth and independence. I am not indicating one should constantly and pathologically seek out validation, but it is a process many individuals need to go through and those who are need not view their behaviour as something to be rid of, but to be open to the validation they are receiving.

 

The above is true of anyone; we all need to know we’ve done a good job or look nice in that new shirt. Compliments, which are a form of external validation, improve productivity and mood, generally making the world a better place.

 

References:

 

1. Branden, N. (1969). The psychology of self-esteem. New York: Bantam.

2. Linehan, MM (1997). Validation and psychotherapy. In A Bohart & C. Greenberg (Eds.) Empathy reconsidered: New Directions. Washington DC: APA

3. Woodberry, KA, Miller, AL, Glinski, J, Indik, J, & Mitchell, AG (2002). Family therapy and dialectical behavior therapy with adolescents: Part II: A theoretical review, American Journal of Psychotherapy, 56, 585-602.

[Got it]

http://www.psychology.iastate.edu/faculty/lmlarson/4.pdf

 

About how important external validation is for children and adults.

 

Adults in individualistic cultures with high attachment anxiety

emerge from childhood with negative working models of themselves. These individuals often have a limited ability to draw on

internal resources for reassurance or validation and are then compelled to search for validation and reassurance from others. In

contrast, adults in individualistic cultures with high attachment

avoidance are loath to rely on others for affirmation. Because of

their generally negative views of others and fear of intimacy and

dependence, they are compelled to rely more or less exclusively on

internal sources of validation and reinforcement. Persons with

relatively secure attachment have positive working models of self

and others and presumably are able to easily mobilize both internal

and external sources of affirmation as their circumstances require

(Mallinckrodt, 2000, 2001). Results of the small number of relevant empirical studies appear to support this conceptualization. For

example, Davila (2001) found a positive association between attachment anxiety and excessive reassurance seeking. Similarly,

Lopez (2001) found that the need for social approval was positively associated with attachment anxiety. That study also reported

that the need for social approval explained unique variance in the

tendency to use splitting of others as a psychological defense,

above and beyond the variance accounted for by the quality of the

attachment. It appears that attachment anxiety is positively and

moderately associated with a need for reassurance from others.

Conversely, two studies reported only nominal associations between attachment avoidance and excessive reassurance seeking

(Davila) or need for social approval (Lopez). Two other studies

found that individuals with attachment avoidance were less likely

to seek positive feedback from others (e.g., Brennan & Bosson,

1998; Brennan & Morris, 1997). It seems that previous studies

provide some empirical evidence that attachment anxiety (but not

attachment avoidance) is moderately related to the need for reassurance from others.

In addition to the need for reassurance, the other mediator

examined in this study is the capacity for self-reinforcement.

Roberts et al. (1996) provided evidence that attachment anxiety is

significantly related to low self-esteem. Given the link between

self-esteem and self-reinforcement (Heaton & Duerfeldt, 1973),

attachment anxiety may be negatively associated with the capacity

for self-reinforcement. Similarly, Roberts et al. found that attachment avoidance was also significantly related to low self-esteem.

However, attachment theory holds that individuals with attachment

avoidance tend to compulsively rely only on themselves for validation because of their negative views of others. We reasoned that

persons with high attachment avoidance tend to rely only on

self-validation for their sense of reassurance because they avoid

relying on others for reassurance.

The capacity to draw validation and reinforcement from at least

one of these two sources (i.e., self vs. others) may be the critical

link between attachment and vulnerability to depressive symptoms. Lewinsohn (1974) argued that depression is caused primarily

by a lack of positive self-reinforcement and by a limited capacity

for internal validation. According to Beck (1967), depression is

caused by excessive negative self-appraisal. There is also a body of

empirical evidence to support the view that lower levels of selfreinforcement or validation are associated with higher levels of

depressive symptoms (e.g., Bandura, 1971; Wilkinson, 1997

[So happy together]

The comment about a real narcissist being like a shark ripping your legs off was true.

 

My clinically diagnosed ex gas lit me until I was hospitalized. Found out later he had three gf's in his life and EACH of them had a stay in the nut ward because he mentally tortured them until they had a nervous break down.

 

I literally became dissassociative until I didn't eat anymore. Once hospitalized I slept for three days straight because my body was shut down from the stress. I didn't even know it was possible to literally make a normal person Insane until that experience.

 

I thought i was tough: I survived sexual abuse as a child without needing counseling. I suffered severe physical abuse from my ex husband; found out i was pregnant, he is cheating and is a cross dresser on the same day, that would destroy most folks but i STILL didnt feel i needed a counselor. The npd ex though? I literally went into the nut house. What narcs do to you is beyond unreal, its freaking soul reaver level ****...

 

 

I was never hospitalized, but my ex (I later found out) was diagnosed with Antisocial Personality Disorder. He did the very same things you are talking about. I thought I was nuts. He literally made me feel crazy. Then, when I told him to get out, over the next few weeks, I snapped back into my old self. I could not believe how different I had become. It was like a weird crazy dream.

[Got it]

Pierre, SHOCKINGLY apparently you and the medical community are not on the same page. Hold on the world is ending!!!

[MissBee]

I don't want to touch this one....

 

 

BUT.....

 

 

...has anyone actually defined external validation for the purposes of this discussion?

 

I think this is indeed important to mention.

 

As sometimes we start discussions assuming everyone is on the same page with the meaning of a term/concept being discussed, when in reality, people are applying different meanings and responding based on those different meanings. The term affair has even had to be defined, as although it would seem like there is a standard understanding of it, there still have been times when people are talking at cross-purposes because of different ideas of what an affair means. So for real, it only helps discussions make sense, if from the outset we state we define our terms.

[USMCHokie]

I think this is indeed important to mention.

 

As sometimes we start discussions assuming everyone is on the same page with the meaning of a term/concept being discussed, when in reality, people are applying different meanings and responding based on those different meanings. The term affair has even had to be defined, as although it would seem like there is a standard understanding of it, there still have been times when people are talking at cross-purposes because of different ideas of what an affair means. So for real, it only helps discussions make sense, if from the outset we state we define our terms.

 

I only ask because I generally define things in the broadest sense possible. For example, I define external validation as ANY external feedback that affects your perception of yourself. A girl smiling at you as you walk by is external validation. Being in a relationship is external validation. Receiving a promotion at work is external validation. Anything that is derived from an external source that affects your perception of yourself, no matter how minute, is external validation. We all experience it all the time. It is inherent in all human interactions, as we are social beings which rely on each other for growth and development.

 

An absurd example I like to give when it comes to self esteem v. external validation. You lock a baby in a basement by himself for 18 years. How much self esteem will he have given that he has received no external validation?

 

People around here on LS seem to restrict external validation as only verbal compliments and the like. I think this is due to the negative connotations associated with it. People don't like to associate themselves with receiving external validation, so they limit its scope as much as possible to escape its purview.