Quiet Storm Posted April 17, 2013 Posted April 17, 2013 My dad actually told me much of the same things about men that ninja says, and I do believe there is a lot of truth in his posts. My dad told me that my husband (who was 17 at the time), probably just wanted sex. And he was sorta right, because he was a teenage boy and I was a hot 15 year old. He just ended up falling in love with the rest of me, too. I just do not believe that ninja's "truths" apply to all men, over the course of their entire lives. I've been with my husband since age 15. He seems to be open and honest with me, I've never caught him in a lie. I know he finds other women attractive. I know he watches porn. I know he loves sex with me, but likely thinks about how it would be with other women. He is still visibly physically attracted to me after 22 years. I also know that he loves me as a person and is not just using me for any benefits that I offer to him. He engages with me. Does things with me that I enjoy. Talks to me. He does things to make me happy. And it's not just so that he can get sex, because I do not withold or use sex as a weapon. He gets it when he wants, so there is no need to butter me up, or say what I want to hear. When I annoy him, he tells me bluntly, and I do the same for him. He doesn't avoid conflict or confrontation, and freely expresses his opinions, regardless of whether or not I agree. I do think men objectify women, but are they very capable of loving and cherishing women in their lives, such as wives, daughters, mothers, sisters. I think men have two "compartments". A sexual, objectifying part of them, and a part reserved for women they love and are emotionally connected to. I do understand ninja's points though, and I don't see him as being malicious, but as "fatherly". He wants to warn women about men, just as my father did. Many fathers often project a perfect, happy world to their daughters...there is going to be this great guy just dying to make her his wife as soon as she finishes college and is ready to settle down. Many fathers don't tell their daughters that most men will be after sex, so they should choose their partners wisely. Many dads don't tell their girls that often, the pickup lines & pursuit, are just ploys for sex. And that not every guy that pursues her is interested in her thoughts, dreams and attracted to her shining personality. It really does a diservice to young women, because many do enter the dating world very naive and end up getting hurt. If they had been told about the red flags, the lines, the "actions not matching words", the signs of personality disorders and addiction...it could've saved some heartbreaks. I also agree with ninja's assessment of men and the "unspeakables". I call this the "don't worry your pretty little head about it" dynamic, and it stems from men believing (and theres some truth to it for SOME women) that we can't handle the truth. Over history, we were protected from the realities of war, sailors omitted tales about their island prostitues...hell, some men learned to not even cuss around us. They do this because they don't want to deal with the emotional fallout, they don't want tears or long talks about feelings. They'd rather protect us from harsh truths, and it's still very prevalant today.
Titania22 Posted April 17, 2013 Posted April 17, 2013 (edited) Hey Guys, I thought I would chime in as I am probably one of the only people here that has spent any amount of time with NIP in real life. Having met NIP and spent the best part of 3 days with in, I can say he is a sweety. He cares so much about all us women, and he really just wants us to get the lives he feels we deserve, i.e. being treated well by men. Nothing he says here, no matter how harsh or arrogant it may seem to you, is meant to hurt or shame us. He really is like the father figure here. And sometimes fathers can seem overbearing, but always out of love and concern for our well being. BTW I really love threads like this, about hypothetical scenarios that can trigger philosophical debate. Such fun! Edited April 17, 2013 by Titania22 addition 2
Els Posted April 18, 2013 Posted April 18, 2013 I definitely think that most people here would be decent folks if you met them IRL and spoke with them. I agree that NIP would likely be one of them. I think many of you are reading very idealistically between the lines of what he is saying, however, and imagining different versions of it. Because he says so much, and most of it is intentionally left vague. For instance, I'm pretty sure that EasyHeart and QuietStorm both have pretty different interpretations of the moral of his story, based on their responses to it. I absolutely think it's possible to give great advice and to be a 'father figure' without displaying the arrogance and smugness evident in some of NIP's posts. Carhill and JamesM both do great jobs of it, as do xxoo and LittleTiger on the female side. And several others who are younger, but just as good. I highly doubt ANY woman posting in this thread is under the delusion that all men are angels who would never use us, and that we do not need to utilize good judgement in choosing a man. Most of us are every bit as capable of rational thinking and judgement of people as NIP believes he is, if not more so. Believing in love does not mean that one is incapable of such - it simply means that one is capable of striking a balance rather than falling completely into cynicism. 1
Eternal Sunshine Posted April 18, 2013 Posted April 18, 2013 Hey Guys, I thought I would chime in as I am probably one of the only people here that has spent any amount of time with NIP in real life. Having met NIP and spent the best part of 3 days with in, I can say he is a sweety. He cares so much about all us women, and he really just wants us to get the lives he feels we deserve, i.e. being treated well by men. Nothing he says here, no matter how harsh or arrogant it may seem to you, is meant to hurt or shame us. He really is like the father figure here. And sometimes fathers can seem overbearing, but always out of love and concern for our well being. BTW I really love threads like this, about hypothetical scenarios that can trigger philosophical debate. Such fun! Yep, that's the exact vibe I got from him. Thanks for confirming it
Imajerk17 Posted April 18, 2013 Posted April 18, 2013 There is also the case where the guy comes on strong wanting to buy the house so much he'll accept any terms and then after he "closes" he loses interest and stops making the payments.... 1
EasyHeart Posted April 18, 2013 Posted April 18, 2013 If you realize that part of what the OP is saying is that women should not have sex with men until the man is committed, sure.They shouldn't. Duh. I definitely think that most people here would be decent folks if you met them IRL and spoke with them. I agree that NIP would likely be one of them. I think many of you are reading very idealistically between the lines of what he is saying, however, and imagining different versions of it. Because he says so much, and most of it is intentionally left vague. For instance, I'm pretty sure that EasyHeart and QuietStorm both have pretty different interpretations of the moral of his story, based on their responses to it. I absolutely think it's possible to give great advice and to be a 'father figure' without displaying the arrogance and smugness evident in some of NIP's posts. Carhill and JamesM both do great jobs of it, as do xxoo and LittleTiger on the female side. And several others who are younger, but just as good. I highly doubt ANY woman posting in this thread is under the delusion that all men are angels who would never use us, and that we do not need to utilize good judgement in choosing a man. Most of us are every bit as capable of rational thinking and judgement of people as NIP believes he is, if not more so. Believing in love does not mean that one is incapable of such - it simply means that one is capable of striking a balance rather than falling completely into cynicism.I think you are (a) reading waaaaaay to much into a cute little story and (b) over-personalizing the OP. Not everything is about you!!!
Emilia Posted April 18, 2013 Posted April 18, 2013 I think you are (a) reading waaaaaay to much into a cute little story and (b) over-personalizing the OP. Not everything is about you!!! She has been reading the OP's posts for a while just like I have. Elswyth point is not about this particular thread, it is a general observation. 1
Els Posted April 18, 2013 Posted April 18, 2013 They shouldn't. Duh. Seems we're agreed on this. I think you are (a) reading waaaaaay to much into a cute little story and (b) over-personalizing the OP. Not everything is about you!!! How many of the OP's posts have you actually read, other than the first one in this thread? Not to mention, how many of MY posts have you actually read? Want to point out where I even mentioned myself?
Archgirl Posted April 18, 2013 Posted April 18, 2013 They shouldn't. Duh. Totes! I mean, a womans only means to power is by witholding sex!! I mean what would we be able to judge women on if they all just had sex with who-ever they felt like, whenever they felt like it, just because they wanted to all willy-nilly like! Girls! Tease but never please!! Never leave the house without a hat and gloves! Men don't make passes at girls who wear glasses! And above all: sex is your only weapon and is to be treated as a last resort to snare a husband who will buy you only the best of all modern white-goods! 2
candie13 Posted April 18, 2013 Posted April 18, 2013 I was wearing my gloves when I pressed the "like" button, Archgirl :D ! 1
Archgirl Posted April 18, 2013 Posted April 18, 2013 I was wearing my gloves when I pressed the "like" button, Archgirl :D ! Good girl! Now if you just remember to never let on that you are smarter than him maybe can snare you a nice bank manager! Just don't forget to great him at the door with his slippers and a whisky!
EasyHeart Posted April 18, 2013 Posted April 18, 2013 How many of the OP's posts have you actually read, other than the first one in this thread?Probably a lot, but I admit I don't pay much attention to who posts. I mostly just read the posts. Not to mention, how many of MY posts have you actually read? Want to point out where I even mentioned myself? See above. I'm talking about this thread. Apparently this is all about you not liking NIP, is that it? Because I certainly can't see anything terribly controversial in his OP. It's a story that's familiar to every guy.
EasyHeart Posted April 18, 2013 Posted April 18, 2013 Totes! I mean, a womans only means to power is by witholding sex!! Most of us aren't trying to have power over the people we date. And we don't want the people we date to have power over us. I mean what would we be able to judge women on if they all just had sex with who-ever they felt like, whenever they felt like it, just because they wanted to all willy-nilly like! Most of us don't want to judge other people. And we don't care about other people judging us. Girls! Tease but never please!! Never leave the house without a hat and gloves! Men don't make passes at girls who wear glasses! I really like girls in glasses. It's the closest thing I have to a fetish. (Well, except for redheads. But that's everyone loves redheads! ) And above all: sex is your only weapon and is to be treated as a last resort to snare a husband who will buy you only the best of all modern white-goods!Most of us don't think in terms of weapons to use against the people we date. And we don't want the people we date to attack us.
candie13 Posted April 18, 2013 Posted April 18, 2013 Good girl! Now if you just remember to never let on that you are smarter than him maybe can snare you a nice bank manager! Just don't forget to great him at the door with his slippers and a whisky! Shoot, I'll go hide the books, paint my nails light pink and place those Vogue magazines in view! PM me to take off my glasses, around 8, pretty please! You're a doll, thanks ! 1
Els Posted April 18, 2013 Posted April 18, 2013 Probably a lot, but I admit I don't pay much attention to who posts. I mostly just read the posts. See above. I'm talking about this thread. Apparently this is all about you not liking NIP, is that it? Because I certainly can't see anything terribly controversial in his OP. The OP made more posts in this thread than just an opening one. At any rate, even most of those who side with him have agreed that he comes across as arrogant. The only part we disagree on is whether or not that is acceptable, given his good intentions. It's a story that's familiar to every guy. This is exactly the sort of bull**** blanket statements that I was talking about to begin with. No, it is not familiar to every guy. You and NIP are NOT 'every guy'. Several women here have demonstrated such via personal anecdotes of men who have asked for relationships before they did, and have been pooh-poohed by the OP.
EasyHeart Posted April 18, 2013 Posted April 18, 2013 This is exactly the sort of bull**** blanket statements that I was talking about to begin with. No, it is not familiar to every guy. You and NIP are NOT 'every guy'. Several women here have demonstrated such via personal anecdotes of men who have asked for relationships before they did, and have been pooh-poohed by the OP.Ahhh! Okay, now I think I get it. You're making a very common mistake. Generalizations help us to gather and systemize information. When we do so in human behavior, we necessarily deal with probabilities, not certainties. In math and physics, you can disprove a general rule by finding one example in which it fails, but that line of argument doesn't work when we're talking about things like dating. If you're reading things like "every guy is familiar with this story" literally and think that identifying one man in the history of the world (through multiple levels of hearsay, no less) negates a general statement, then you are reading far too much into it. The point of a forum like this is to have a civil exchange of ideas and pleasant conversation, not make scientific proofs or personal attacks on other people.
Els Posted April 18, 2013 Posted April 18, 2013 (edited) Ahhh! Okay, now I think I get it. You're making a very common mistake. Generalizations help us to gather and systemize information. When we do so in human behavior, we necessarily deal with probabilities, not certainties. In math and physics, you can disprove a general rule by finding one example in which it fails, but that line of argument doesn't work when we're talking about things like dating. If you're reading things like "every guy is familiar with this story" literally and think that identifying one man in the history of the world (through multiple levels of hearsay, no less) negates a general statement, then you are reading far too much into it. The point of a forum like this is to have a civil exchange of ideas and pleasant conversation, not make scientific proofs or personal attacks on other people. A civil exchange of ideas can include someone telling someone else that they believe they are wrong. As in this case. I would say that the common mistake lies with the person making the false statement. If I were to say 'every woman hates sex' and several women come in to tell me that they love sex, I would say 'my apologies, I was wrong'. I would not discredit their personal anecdotes. Mean what you say, otherwise don't be surprised when people try to correct you. I disagree that probabilities matter at all in relationships. All that matters is that the two people involved see eye to eye. Edit: At any rate, I think we're derailing the OP's thread. And as I said before, even though I disagree with his modus operandi and some of his statements, I believe that he put a lot of time into writing this thread and that should be respected. Probably best to agree to disagree. Edited April 18, 2013 by Elswyth
Recommended Posts