Being bitchy and emotionally guarded yields me better results in dating

[rydergirl]

Im 26.

I consider myself a nice, sweet, loyal person. I have been frequently referred to as a "nice girl."

I do not think that I act overly available, sweet or giving in the beginning. I do have that kind of personality overall though. However, I have found that all of my exes, even ones that didnt seem assholish and werent the typical "alpha male", took advantage of my personality. They also seemed detached after the first few months of dating where there "honeymoon" stage exists. I dont mean they stopped being aggressive. I understand after that stage wears off, of course a guy wont be as aggressive in pursuing you. Im talking about men getting quickly too comfortable in a relationship and expecting me to do most of the relationship's work and not putting you first at all. Usually this happens after 3 months. With every single ex (5 of them).

 

For the past year 14 months Ive purposefully acted bitchier and "harder to get." I dont go overboard though.

 

-I dont act as sweet but I do show my real personality here and there. Id say maybe one third of the time together, Ill show that side. If you go too far he will think you arent interested or are a witch. Basically, Ill be nice sometimes and other times Ill act not interested and emotionally guarded.

-I dont bring up anything about where our relationship is going or how I feel about him, AT ALL. Guys hate that stuff so I just dropped all sorts of talks about those things.

-I dont act as available. I never before dropped any plans to be with a guy, but I very rarely turned a guy down if he asked me to do something. Now, I sometimes say no to a guys offer to do something and do something else to fill my time. I dont do it too much- otherwise it'll backfire.

-I communicate much less with guys inbetween dates. I dont ignore their texts or calls, but I dont respond right away and I keep my talking minimal. My talk is not mushy needy talk at all either. I will once in awhile initiate some talk so they think Im still interested but the guys still do over 50% of the initiating.

-I make them wait longer for actual sex. I used to have sex by date 5 or 6 (so about 3 weeks) but now I wait longer (at least 6 weeks). Ill still do stuff leading up to sex before though, otherwise they get frustrated.

 

My results have been much better. For the ones that went past a few dates (the ones that didnt seemed to just want sex) all of the guys showed much more interest in me and seemed to like being around me more. Several guys commented that they liked I wasnt too emotional, clingy or talkative inbetween dates. One guy said he found it refreshing how "rational" I was. They ALL asked me to be their girlfriend or to be exclusive too.

 

I had one brief relationship from doing things this way but I ended it when he got a job and moved 2 hours away. The other ones I decided not to enter in a relationship with because they didnt seem like what I wanted long term (Ive become picky now in what Im looking for).

 

Bottom line: Men lose interest when women are too emotional, too available and have sex too quickly. They like independent, more rational women and they like taking the lead.

 

Why men marry bitches seem to be true- if anyone has read that book.

Edited April 13, 2013 by rydergirl

[Leegh]

Yes, I see what you mean. I know of one "bitch" who has the nicest, kindest husband. Since he is more low-keyed I guess he likes the fact that she is more out-spoken. I guess being a bitch, makes a relationship more interesting, then for a guy to go out with a woman who is predictable. In addition, I think men generally "get hooked" on women who remind them of their mothers, or primary caretakers. I have found that men do not "bond" through sex, and it may even peak their interest more to hold off for a few months. In addition, it's best to find out if they have any diseases. You seem like an intelligent woman, and I agree with what you write.

[tbf]

If you consolidate all your actions, they point to a person who has a life, who doesn't force their partner to take on the load of the relationship management by being the one responsible for that person's happiness and entertainment.

 

What does bother me about your list, is to decline based on lies of having a life. Instead, I would suggest actually having hobbies and a social life outside the relationship where when a guy asks you out, it's okay to provide alternate date suggestions if you're previously committed to another engagement with friends.

 

Also, what bothers me is the assumption of niceness when there's expectation of return. The social niceness game isn't nice. It's no different than any other transactional social interplay. The difference is that you're providing a service first with the expectation of return payment, much like any other business, except in business, there are legal structures that ensure payment is received for services rendered. When you utilize the niceness game, there's nothing to enforce payment.

 

Rather than being upset and demonizing the other person for not paying for your services, instead stop providing services that people don't appreciate or reciprocate. If you cook a nice meal for a partner and he won't reciprocate by washing the dishes, then stop cooking nice meals for him. Then when he asks why you've stopped since he's expecting this free service, explain to him that the dishes need to be done and it won't be the cook doing them.

[rydergirl]

If you consolidate all your actions, they point to a person who has a life, who doesn't force their partner to take on the load of the relationship management by being the one responsible for that person's happiness and entertainment.

 

What does bother me about your list, is to decline based on lies of having a life. Instead, I would suggest actually having hobbies and a social life outside the relationship where when a guy asks you out, it's okay to provide alternate date suggestions if you're previously committed to another engagement with friends.

 

Also, what bothers me is the assumption of niceness when there's expectation of return. The social niceness game isn't nice. It's no different than any other transactional social interplay. The difference is that you're providing a service first with the expectation of return payment, much like any other business, except in business, there are legal structures that ensure payment is received for services rendered. When you utilize the niceness game, there's nothing to enforce payment.

 

Rather than being upset and demonizing the other person for not paying for your services, instead stop providing services that people don't appreciate or reciprocate. If you cook a nice meal for a partner and he won't reciprocate by washing the dishes, then stop cooking nice meals for him. Then when he asks why you've stopped since he's expecting this free service, explain to him that the dishes need to be done and it won't be the cook doing them.

 

I do have a life. Friends, close with fmily, hobbies. However, I dont have every single night of every single week planned meticulously. When I turn guys down for a date, what do you think I do? Sit at home and twiddle my thumbs? No, I usually go out with friends. You are missing my point. I have a life, but I purposefully turn down a guy when he ASKS. That way he feels he is not completely in control. Once a guy feels he is in control, it all goes downhill.

 

Your other two points, I agree with. I dont generally do nice things for men anymore. They wont reciprocate the vast majority of the time. So yes I agree, women should stop providing services for men. If they want to be selfish, we can too.

Also, men generally wont be nice to you in return. So thats why Ive stopped being nice.

Essentially, now I act like a man in dating. Ive had people tell me this wont work because men expect women to act like women and vice versa and that these men would get sick of me eventually (thats why you act nice and sweet ONCE in awhile) My results are the opposite however.

[tbf]

I do have a life. Friends, close with fmily, hobbies. However, I dont have every single night of every single week planned meticulously. When I turn guys down for a date, what do you think I do? Sit at home and twiddle my thumbs? No, I usually go out with friends. You are missing my point. I have a life, but I purposefully turn down a guy when he ASKS. That way he feels he is not completely in control. Once a guy feels he is in control, it all goes downhill.

So what happens after you "get" your man? Do you continue playing power games to keep him? How exhausting and counterproductive to building an emotionally healthy relationship built on trust, respect, love and communication.

 

Your other two points, I agree with. I dont generally do nice things for men anymore. They wont reciprocate the vast majority of the time. So yes I agree, women should stop providing services for men. If they want to be selfish, we can too.

Also, men generally wont be nice to you in return. So thats why Ive stopped being nice.

Essentially, now I act like a man in dating. Ive had people tell me this wont work because men expect women to act like women and vice versa and that these men would get sick of me eventually (thats why you act nice and sweet ONCE in awhile) My results are the opposite however.

Or instead of not doing nice things, why not select men who agree with the rules of the nice game and reciprocate? Or balance your perspective and set boundaries, so you're not treated like a doormat?

[Radu]

OP, first of all i'm sorry if you seem to think you have better results by this [doesn't shine a pretty light on the guys tbh ].

 

I think you are on a bad path so to say.

 

I'm a guy and i spent some time on PUA forums, i even applied some of that stuff there.

What i learned is that it basically falls into 2 cathegories :

- outer game, where you pimp yourself up to appear better [key word is appear here]

- inner game where you change yourself on the inside, letting the outer self change as well

 

The former will yield good results off the bat in terms of short term interactions.

The latter will yield not so good results short term.

 

However, when you look at long term, inner game is much much better for a simple, very simple reason.

With time it's inevitable for your SO to get to know the real you.

And if he/she went in the relationship assuming one thing, and being surprised with something different, then you will wind up in either an unhappy marriage or with a series of divorces.

 

And this is not that surprising, because nobody can keep that facade up.

When we enter a relationship, when we go through that period of dating, what we actually do is we negociate the relationship, and we try to learn the boundaries.

Do you think it's a good ideea to missrepresent your boundaries and how you are yourself in the stages of negociation ?

Do you think you can keep your initial self throughout the length of the relationship ?

 

I honestly don't think i can, which is why i don't practice outer game.

[Radu]

 

I can only speak for myself, but a bitchy, emotionally guarded woman is not someone that I would be interested in dating (I have dated women like that before and the experience was very unpleasant and not something I would like to repeat).

 

I made a thread a week ago in this section about who you date, and if/how your dating type has changed.

 

I don't think the OP is trying to seem that unpleasant to the guys in question, i think she is just trying to weed out the ones who take advantage of her kindness.

The problem is that i don't think she can pull it off long term.

[rocketman122]

I have no patience for bitchy girls who play mind games. zero tolerance.

 

btw, are you in a relationship now?

 

results have been much better. For the ones that went past a few dates (the ones that didnt seemed to just want sex) all of the guys showed much more interest in me and seemed to like being around me more. Several guys commented that they liked I wasnt too emotional, clingy or talkative inbetween dates. One guy said he found it refreshing how "rational" I was. They ALL asked me to be their girlfriend or to be exclusive too.

 

ah..but still single, yes?im happy its working for you. everyone has their own tactic but I prefer someone who is open and honest and doesnt have to manipulate and think how to act in a certain way and be fake to be in a relationship. I guess thats why im never single for very long.

[charlietheginger]

Devils advocate.....

 

I married a bitch...

I had to put up with mood swings,throwing stuff against the wall, spending

Money in useless junk.

 

Im a decent looking guy ive had women around i could have sex with

But if i pick up on a bitch personality.

I end and pursuit.

 

lots of guys want love and affection not being married

To a bitch.

 

BITCH WOMEN ARE A DIME A DOZEN

GOOD WOMEN ARE ONE IN A MILLION.

 

often guys that cant find a good women settle for a bitch

Hence "men marry bitches"

 

When in reality its " i looked around for a nice sweet good

Women all i could find was a bitch "

[miss_jaclynrae]

I am just me.

 

 

 

Being myself seems to work wonderfully for me.

[charlietheginger]

I am just me.

 

 

 

Being myself seems to work wonderfully for me.

 

Congratulations !

 

Im 35 i can spot a female game player right away. Often

Ill go with the game awhile.

Cat mouse

Hard to get

Tease

Catch release

 

Its pretty much the same game recycled over and over

Basic " the rules " dating book mentality.

 

Usually women in their 20s play the game over and over

Its a game women that dont have anything to offer a man

other then their vagina use to keep a man interested.

 

Women that are educated have well paying jobs highself esteem

And personality know they can keep a man and dont need the games.

 

Fun loving women extroverts usually get the man and win

The game. Goofey game playing bitches usually lure a man

Into marrinng her. Then get divorced down the road when

He relizes she is a bitch.

[outsidethebox]

I think OP describes being more true to herself and not at the beck and a call of whoever she's considering dating, and I think it will be true that those she connects with will be a better connection and relationship as she has found.

 

But those connections will take a lot more attempts if there is much randomness in the behavior (aka bitchiness or with men bastardness).

[Divasu]

For the past year 14 months Ive purposefully acted bitchier and "harder to get." I dont go overboard though.

 

-I dont act as sweet but I do show my real personality here and there. Id say maybe one third of the time together, Ill show that side. If you go too far he will think you arent interested or are a witch. Basically, Ill be nice sometimes and other times Ill act not interested and emotionally guarded.

-I dont bring up anything about where our relationship is going or how I feel about him, AT ALL. Guys hate that stuff so I just dropped all sorts of talks about those things.

-I dont act as available. I never before dropped any plans to be with a guy, but I very rarely turned a guy down if he asked me to do something. Now, I sometimes say no to a guys offer to do something and do something else to fill my time. I dont do it too much- otherwise it'll backfire.

-I communicate much less with guys inbetween dates. I dont ignore their texts or calls, but I dont respond right away and I keep my talking minimal. My talk is not mushy needy talk at all either. I will once in awhile initiate some talk so they think Im still interested but the guys still do over 50% of the initiating.

-I make them wait longer for actual sex. I used to have sex by date 5 or 6 (so about 3 weeks) but now I wait longer (at least 6 weeks). Ill still do stuff leading up to sex before though, otherwise they get frustrated.

I wouldn't advise using all of these imposed rules but rather, follow your own natural rhythm, how it interacts with the men you date, and let that rhythm guide you in the direction you want to go. Be smart, be safe and protect yourself initially until the other person has shown that they are trustworthy and reliable.

 

Granted, I am no expert by any means, but I do believe in being yourself and feeling comfortable in your own shoes. Depends on what you want the end result to be, one where you find a life partner, being happy with one another and no one feeling gypped or used? Or, something else...

[Woggle]

It's not that way with me. Treat me like that and I will show her the door but treat me right and I will treat her like a queen. I really do give back what I get. If I have to be a jerk to a woman to keep her interest I don't need her in my life anyway.

[Divasu]

This is sound advice. She can protect herself initially through questioning the man to see if he's actually who he says he is. There's nothing deceiving about that. But when you use games to protect yourself, you've hit rock bottom.

 

I'm so pissed that the OP is actually right about the fact that it yields great results. They're not exactly results, but damn it's sad to know that so many men out there are just total fruitcakes that fall under women like the OP. Come on guys, wake up and smell the coffee, this is a revolution.

 

Yeah but some guys do it too. The whole treat em' mean to keep them keen.

 

Not saying either is right. All it becomes is a vicious cycle. My one female friend was so screwed over by this one guy she dated for about a year, he was so emotionally abusive to her.

 

It really hardened her and she'd tell me that all she's going to do from hereon out is to use men and how much she hated them. And, men of all walks of life followed her around like a puppy dog.

 

It seemed so empty and void. I could see the hurt and pain in her eyes when we'd talk about it, she was out for blood.

[Woggle]

Yeah but some guys do it too. The whole treat em' mean to keep them keen.

 

Not saying either is right. All it becomes is a vicious cycle. My one female friend was so screwed over by this one guy she dated for about a year, he was so emotionally abusive to her.

 

It really hardened her and she'd tell me that all she's going to do from hereon out is to use men and how much she hated them. And, men of all walks of life followed her around like a puppy dog.

 

It seemed so empty and void. I could see the hurt and pain in her eyes when we'd talk about it, she was out for blood.

 

THe sad thing is some of these same guys might turn around and do the same thing to a woman and the vicious cycle continues. If I become what I loathe then all the people who wronged me have won.

[Divasu]

There's a right and wrong way to "hardening up". I could be bullied and decide to put down innocent fellows later. Or I can protect those who are bullied by others.

 

These men and women that play games are in a state where they're no longer nice. They have been walked on their entire lives, this is their chance for them to lash out and while they lash out, they also affect that handful of real people they may come across. It's normal, but no one has sat down to teach them these things, they continue and continue, learning the hard way every time until THEY finally become real themselves and can accept being vulnerable just for ONCE to give others a chance. Either that or they just won't listen. It's VINDICTIVENESS that drives them, not love.

 

Very true. I think it's also part of human nature. Look at all the wars that have gone down in history, and continue to.

 

THe sad thing is some of these same guys might turn around and do the same thing to a woman and the vicious cycle continues. If I become what I loathe then all the people who wronged me have won.

 

Yes, absolutely right.

 

 

I was at that point with women before. It's an unhappy existence.

 

I'd rather stick to being a good guy that gives value and moves to the beat of his own drum than someone out to hurt everybody. It's worked well. I usually date quality women.

 

To each their own though....

 

Smart man.

[Eternal Sunshine]

There are quite a few men that are like that but I truly think that those men are emotionally dysfunctional if they get off on being treated poorly and mind games. It makes me lose respect and attraction to them.

 

I do think that certain dose of boundaries and assertiveness is good for anyone, in any environment. The rest is just BS.

 

Sure, I can play those games too and would probably have success in attracting damaged men but:

 

1) I would hate myself for becoming someone I dislike

2) I would hate those men for responding to it

3) It would be exhausting to maintain

 

I can't be driven by hate so I prefer to stay single and find someone that will actually like ME.

[Radu]

Yeah but some guys do it too. The whole treat em' mean to keep them keen.

 

Not saying either is right. All it becomes is a vicious cycle. My one female friend was so screwed over by this one guy she dated for about a year, he was so emotionally abusive to her.

 

It really hardened her and she'd tell me that all she's going to do from hereon out is to use men and how much she hated them. And, men of all walks of life followed her around like a puppy dog.

 

It seemed so empty and void. I could see the hurt and pain in her eyes when we'd talk about it, she was out for blood.

 

That's one of the reasons i'm celibate atm.

 

Had a few very bad relationships followed by reading up and realising that treating ppl like that will get them interested in you, as odd as it sounds.

So i decided to learn more, get better and use them as much as possible.

Well, that went out the window when i realised i can get stuck in that cycle, never ending it.

I figure, letting them see me smiling and happy can be painfull enough, and i don't need to do anything.

 

I really don't think that this type of artificial mentality can last long term.

If it's in you by default by way of your education, most likely it can last.

[darkmoon]

This is sound advice. She can protect herself initially through questioning the man to see if he's actually who he says he is. There's nothing deceiving about that. But when you use games to protect yourself, you've hit rock bottom.

 

I'm so pissed that the OP is actually right about the fact that it yields great results. They're not exactly results, but damn it's sad to know that so many men out there are just total fruitcakes that fall under women like the OP. Come on guys, wake up and smell the coffee, this is a revolution.

 

the OP wrote this which caused you to see a revolution

"Im talking about men getting quickly too comfortable in a relationship and expecting me to do most of the relationship's work and not putting you first at all. Usually this happens after 3 months. With every single ex (5 of them)"

 

which caused me to tell you this

it's rare to find men that don't blame us when things go wrong, we're almost always described as the more caring sex, so a fall from this ultra-virtuous height is almost always a nasty surprise for men to see, it happens when women put themsleves first, tell me off, tell me i have baggage, but really there's no need, i have a nice-guy man, with us nice works both ways, no revolution though

Edited April 14, 2013 by darkmoon

[MoreThanThat]

I have to agree with the OP.

 

For the men who seem to have issues with behavior like this and see it as a game or manipulation, let me explain from a woman's perspective:

 

I'm a natural nurturer, very compassionate and give 100% to those who are important in my life. I've always had a full life with interests and friends outside of relationships. I have a career I love.

 

It would be REALLY easy for me to jump 100% into something with someone I was really into. But my experience has shown me that backfires. Taking things slowly, not letting myself get overly attached and avoiding opening up emotionally too soon has resulted in stronger relationships for me. I always let the man I'm involved with set the pace of how things progress.

 

The impact? I've had much stronger relationships WITHOUT drama because we had the foundation in place first and although I would prioritize the guy, I'd not let my world revolve around him.

 

I think a big reason relationships don't work out is because of emotional unbalances. But it doesn't have to be that way.

 

I managed to last 15 years with one person with ONE argument (in the first month). Things ended because he decided he didn't want kids.

 

For the men who have a problem with what the OP said - tell me this - do you WANT a woman who drops everything for you, who is needy, who is always questioning where things are at and who has no life outside of her own? Wouldn't you PREFER a woman who has her own life, doesn't bring emotions or drama to the table and isn't thinking of what your kids names should be on the first date?

[todreaminblue]

If I was seeking validation I would be receptive to the interest out there. I work, take care of my kids, go to school, and take care of my elderly mother. That's more than enough for this "sorry ass person" to have on her plate. I don't "leech" on anyone, quite the opposite: I want to be left alone by men, after 20 years of issues with humans I'm simply done. No need to take it all personal, for MY issue of turning down men so freaks you out, perhaps YOU are the one with the problem.

 

 

 

I think you are right athiet scholar, i turn down offers i dont do it meanly i just say sorry, i get disappointed with men,motivation for asking me for a date for starters.....i have always asked for honesty and i have found out why they want to date me so..........i havent dated them.......its been sex straight up....i am retiring once again....i guess i shouldnt ask fro honesty because it hurts a little to hear it....but at least i know.....and the date well....... declined...deb

[MoreThanThat]

I think there is a happy medium there. Expressions like "turn down a man's date on purpose" for no reason are a really big red flag to me (and I'm sure many other men)

 

 

Why can't we just be ourselves?

 

Turning down a date is about three things - keeping an outside life/interests if things don't progress, pacing and not being at a man's beck and call.

 

I don't think the OP was saying she wasn't being herself but that she'd worked ON herself to ensure more balance in her life.

 

In my own case, it's what I need to do to ensure that a relationship I'm in is emotionally balanced. It IS being me.

[todreaminblue]

I tell men straight out: "thank you, im flattered. But im not interested in a relationship." As you, the truth comes out when the majority of men reply: "well I just wanted to know if you wanted to hang out", and they sit there creepily staring at my chest waiting for my reply AGAIN to their offer. I know what "hang out" means. I'm 37, I don't "hang out". I either accept a date to see if there is potential for a future monogamous relationship, or I say no and masturbate lol. I do NOT just have sex with dates or "hang out" friends...

 

My issue is when these guys REFUSE to take my polite denials. They repeatedly come back to my work and try to hang around hoping ill notice them. It freaks me out and turns me off completely because it puts me in such a bad position. I'm AT WORK, this isn't social hour. When I tell them that they whine: "but you won't give me your number so how can I meet you otherwise?" No **** Sherlock, I didn't give you my number because as I says the FIRST time: I'm not interested. In this manner I'm backed into a corner where I HAVE to be a bitch to send the message because my polite denials are ignored.

 

 

I normally explain to them i am celibate so sex is out that gets rid of them pretty quickly....i understand what you are posting i hope you dont think i was arguing with you.....A lot of men have stared at my chest while asking me on a date, i just fold my arms .......I am older too dating is way too complex for me....when i dated younger......it was pretty straight forward, a guy would ask me out and we woudl have fun, he would be polite and sincere and most importantly not after sex on the first date......those were the dates i went on, some of those dates turned out to be guys who werent so sincere but played what they knew i wanted to hear or what i believed in.....

 

i dont like the dating games,like you said its a turn off...i have always looked for sincerity from guys i have lost hope with this i just dont think dating is for me ..........i always dated friends ....guys who knew me and who liked me for me....i dont think this holds true anymore for me......no one wants a good friendship to start...they want to start between the sheets......its just not me..i need to knwo someone as a friend....and thats old hack apparently it used to be a ....blast of a time.....good friend good company possibility of a lasting relationship....old hack ..deb

[Woggle]

I used to be the male version of the OP because I got sick of being treated like garbage but I didn't really find a happy relationship until I opened myself up and stopped. Trust me I understand where the OP is coming from and that behavior gave me the ability to have women wrapped around my finger but bringing the nice guy back out brought me the woman I really wanted.

 

You simply can't have a happy and healthy relationship with these kinds of power games. Of course anybody should have their own life but it's good to ignore people just to get them to act the way you want. I would rather be single for life than have to do that.