Author Emilia Posted June 12, 2013 Author Posted June 12, 2013 Drop sets of squats for me tonight... what does that mean exactly?
USMCHokie Posted June 12, 2013 Posted June 12, 2013 what does that mean exactly? In my limited experience, I think drop sets are by far the most effective training method for increasing one's strength and muscle mass as it combines high weight with high volume. I learned about it a few years ago and it has become the core component of my training, since it can be applied to any weighted exercise. The idea is to perform 3 low-rep "mini-sets" within a set, each mini-set to failure. I generally aim for 5-rep mini-sets. So you start out with enough weight to fail at 5 reps in your first mini-set, then drop sufficient weight that you can perform another 5 reps to failure, then drop weight again to perform 5 to failure. I have found that taking off about 35-40% of the weight with each drop gets you to the desired rep range. So for squats (it helps to have a partner), you'll load the barbell with enough weight to perform only 5 reps. Then you'll strip off weight, do another 5, and then strip off weight to do another 5. With the barbell, you will have to get creative with the arrangement of the weight. Then just repeat for the desired number of sets. Or until you can't walk.
Author Emilia Posted June 12, 2013 Author Posted June 12, 2013 In my limited experience, I think drop sets are by far the most effective training method for increasing one's strength and muscle mass as it combines high weight with high volume. I learned about it a few years ago and it has become the core component of my training, since it can be applied to any weighted exercise. The idea is to perform 3 low-rep "mini-sets" within a set, each mini-set to failure. I generally aim for 5-rep mini-sets. So you start out with enough weight to fail at 5 reps in your first mini-set, then drop sufficient weight that you can perform another 5 reps to failure, then drop weight again to perform 5 to failure. I have found that taking off about 35-40% of the weight with each drop gets you to the desired rep range. So for squats (it helps to have a partner), you'll load the barbell with enough weight to perform only 5 reps. Then you'll strip off weight, do another 5, and then strip off weight to do another 5. With the barbell, you will have to get creative with the arrangement of the weight. Then just repeat for the desired number of sets. Or until you can't walk. Oh I have heard of this, thanks for explaining. I believe this is on the list further down the line. It would be certainly an interesting way to train Do you ever use chains or resistance bands with lifts?
USMCHokie Posted June 12, 2013 Posted June 12, 2013 Oh I have heard of this, thanks for explaining. I believe this is on the list further down the line. It would be certainly an interesting way to train Do you ever use chains or resistance bands with lifts? No. I understand that resistance bands can significantly increase the resistance through a particular segment of the range of motion (typically during the "easiest" part), but I prefer to just add more weight. This forces you to strengthen the weaker segment of your range of motion in kind with the rest of the range of motion. When you add bands, you will always maintain or in some cases widen that gap between your "strong" and "weak" segments, rather than having an equally strong continuous range of motion. If you add more resistance bands rather than adding more weight, all you do is make the top half of the lift harder while maintaining the same bottom half. Some people say that it makes a exercises "tougher." All it does is allow you to avoid having to develop your weaker areas. For squats in particular, I will go so far down that I actually rest the bar on the horizontal beams on the side of the squat rack at the bottom of each rep, with my ass touching my ankles (I've never seen anyone else who was able to do that, but I guess I'm short... ). Ever since I made that change, I've noticed a *significant* increase in power in the lower half of the squat. It has also paid enormous dividends in the deadlift as well. I've probably made close to 30% increase in 1RM for both squat and deadlift in the past few months. And my ass now looks like the letter "d". And chains are just loud and the sound overpowers the Ke$ha playing on my Ipod. 1
Author Emilia Posted June 12, 2013 Author Posted June 12, 2013 And chains are just loud and the sound overpowers the Ke$ha playing on my Ipod. Kristen Stewart, Paris Jackson and Ke$ha? A nice collection for you there. Maybe worth a thread in the 'Abuse' section of LS? I've seen more women and perhaps smaller men train with resistance bands in the gym so maybe it is about making that leap before being able to increase the weight further rather than making it tougher I think. I don't know why the guys use chains to make the higher part of the lift heavier, it really is beyond what I need since I'm still gaining strength on a weekly basis basically. I mean I understand that chains are light as you start lifting and get heavy as you get to a certain point ... I understand your point but perhaps because some of them compete I think. maybe they need to focus more on certain areas for that reason as time is of essence. yeah I try as low as possible, 'ass to grass' as tman says. I'm the lowest squatter and deadlifter in the group and have the highest relative strength so guess the two are related. 1
USMCHokie Posted June 12, 2013 Posted June 12, 2013 Kristen Stewart, Paris Jackson and Ke$ha? A nice collection for you there. Maybe worth a thread in the 'Abuse' section of LS? I want the three of them to abuse me. All at once. 1
Author Emilia Posted June 12, 2013 Author Posted June 12, 2013 I want the three of them to abuse me. All at once. That's too much even for me
tman666 Posted June 12, 2013 Posted June 12, 2013 I don't know why the guys use chains to make the higher part of the lift heavier, it really is beyond what I need since I'm still gaining strength on a weekly basis basically. I mean I understand that chains are light as you start lifting and get heavy as you get to a certain point ... I understand your point but perhaps because some of them compete I think. maybe they need to focus more on certain areas for that reason as time is of essence. Bands and chains are a good way to train a lifter to accelerate through the lift, because the resistance from the bands/chains (aka "accommodating resistance") increases as you near the top of the lift (i.e., more links in the chains are coming off the ground, or the bands are getting stretched further/unstretching-depends on the set-up). I have used them extensively in the past, but I've basically ditched them in the last year or so, at least for training the core lifts. (As an aside, I find resistance bands in particular a very useful tool for accenting the effectiveness of assistance work-triceps, bis, face pulls/pull aparts, glute ham raises/hyperextensions, monster walks, etc.) The PROBLEM with going crazy with the bands and chains is that their effectiveness will only have limited carryover for a raw lifter. Geared lifters are able to make good use of them because their gear (squat suit/deadlift suit/bench shirt) basically provides the most "pop" when compressed at the bottom of the lift-essentially the weight gets "heavier" as the lift progresses from bottom to top. Since I don't have any plans to compete in any geared divisions, I've found that my "raw" strength is best increased through simple progressive overload, with some speed work mixed in. I've also been practicing "pause reps" (holding the squat at the bottom for a few seconds before squatting the weight up, or pausing the barbell on my chest during bench), which I have found help me out a bit as well. 1
tman666 Posted June 12, 2013 Posted June 12, 2013 In my limited experience, I think drop sets are by far the most effective training method for increasing one's strength and muscle mass as it combines high weight with high volume. I learned about it a few years ago and it has become the core component of my training, since it can be applied to any weighted exercise. The idea is to perform 3 low-rep "mini-sets" within a set, each mini-set to failure. I generally aim for 5-rep mini-sets. So you start out with enough weight to fail at 5 reps in your first mini-set, then drop sufficient weight that you can perform another 5 reps to failure, then drop weight again to perform 5 to failure. I have found that taking off about 35-40% of the weight with each drop gets you to the desired rep range. So for squats (it helps to have a partner), you'll load the barbell with enough weight to perform only 5 reps. Then you'll strip off weight, do another 5, and then strip off weight to do another 5. With the barbell, you will have to get creative with the arrangement of the weight. Then just repeat for the desired number of sets. Or until you can't walk. How many times a week are you able to do this and still recover? Also, how do you go about warming up to a 5 rep max to start the drop set? Basically, I'm just wondering because warming up for a true 5 rep max (for me) takes me about 5-7 sets, depending on how tight I am that day, haha. 1
Author Emilia Posted June 12, 2013 Author Posted June 12, 2013 Basically, I'm just wondering because warming up for a true 5 rep max (for me) takes me about 5-7 sets, depending on how tight I am that day, haha. So far it takes me about 5 sets if I'm capable at all so I'm curious too
Author Emilia Posted June 12, 2013 Author Posted June 12, 2013 (As an aside, I find resistance bands in particular a very useful tool for accenting the effectiveness of assistance work-triceps, bis, face pulls/pull aparts, glute ham raises/hyperextensions, monster walks, etc.) Completely. Monster walks are my favourite. I need find more ways for my ham & glute raises though, will try weight plates next. The PROBLEM with going crazy with the bands and chains is that their effectiveness will only have limited carryover for a raw lifter. Geared lifters are able to make good use of them because their gear (squat suit/deadlift suit/bench shirt) basically provides the most "pop" when compressed at the bottom of the lift-essentially the weight gets "heavier" as the lift progresses from bottom to top. Since I don't have any plans to compete in any geared divisions, I've found that my "raw" strength is best increased through simple progressive overload, with some speed work mixed in. I've also been practicing "pause reps" (holding the squat at the bottom for a few seconds before squatting the weight up, or pausing the barbell on my chest during bench), which I have found help me out a bit as well. Noted. Extremely unlikely that this will become relevant for me I have seen people do pause reps though
USMCHokie Posted June 12, 2013 Posted June 12, 2013 How many times a week are you able to do this and still recover? Also, how do you go about warming up to a 5 rep max to start the drop set? Basically, I'm just wondering because warming up for a true 5 rep max (for me) takes me about 5-7 sets, depending on how tight I am that day, haha. Out here I work out 6 days a week, running through 3-4 exercises per muscle group per day. The excessive isolation of muscle groups enables me to sustain this week after week... Generally 3-4 warmup sets of increasing weight of that actual exercise. 10-10-8-5. And it's not necessarily 5 rep max. It's 5 rep fail. So I might change weight between sets if I feel I can't get that 5... 1
tman666 Posted June 12, 2013 Posted June 12, 2013 Out here I work out 6 days a week, running through 3-4 exercises per muscle group per day. The excessive isolation of muscle groups enables me to sustain this week after week... Generally 3-4 warmup sets of increasing weight of that actual exercise. 10-10-8-5. And it's not necessarily 5 rep max. It's 5 rep fail. So I might change weight between sets if I feel I can't get that 5... Haha, hey, if you've got the time... I've been there. It's funny how much my training goes into full "bodybuilder" mode if I'm shanghaied somewhere with little else to do. 1
USMCHokie Posted June 12, 2013 Posted June 12, 2013 Haha, hey, if you've got the time... I've been there. It's funny how much my training goes into full "bodybuilder" mode if I'm shanghaied somewhere with little else to do. Yea, I started working out with someone a couple weeks ago, and we incorporated some of the core stuff he usually does like planks and higher rep sets. I told him, yea, I'm not built for endurance. After 5 reps, I start to melt. So I'm going all-out Crossfit style nonsense for the last month...just to mix it up a little... 1
Author Emilia Posted June 18, 2013 Author Posted June 18, 2013 Deloading week last week, this week ramping up to 5/3/1 has started again. My squat 1RM is now higher than my body weight It was HEAVY yesterday 3x5 at 65%, 75% and 85% respectively then 3x10 sets at 50%... Tried to do it to failure but didn't quite manage, gave up after 10 reps in each set as my ham and glutes were on fire and legs were shaking Barbell rows, bench (1RM at 42.5 kgs now or 94lbs), inclined bench, lat pull downs and abs then stretching. Definitely earned dinner last night. Deadlifts on Thursday: 1RM will go up to 95kgs (210lbs). Press is at 35kgs (77lbs). Thank you tman for the deadlift clips posted a couple of weeks ago. My form improved so much, I managed 3 reps of 95% at the 5/3/1 stage. 1
tman666 Posted June 18, 2013 Posted June 18, 2013 Why the frowny-face on your squat max??? Sounds like you're doing great! One word of advice: If you want to see long term strength gains on 5/3/1 , or really any strength/powerlifting style program, make sure you're eating enough. I have used the program successfully for cutting down before, but my definition of a successful cut is generally "maintain strength/muscle mass while dropping fat". If you're looking to gain strength and muscle, don't sell yourself short by eating too little. I think you'll love the results you get. 5/3/1 brings slow, yet highly sustainable gains. I think this is why I tend to keep coming back to it. 1
Author Emilia Posted June 18, 2013 Author Posted June 18, 2013 Why the frowny-face on your squat max??? Sounds like you're doing great! Because it's heavy One word of advice: If you want to see long term strength gains on 5/3/1 , or really any strength/powerlifting style program, make sure you're eating enough. I have used the program successfully for cutting down before, but my definition of a successful cut is generally "maintain strength/muscle mass while dropping fat". If you're looking to gain strength and muscle, don't sell yourself short by eating too little. I think you'll love the results you get. 5/3/1 brings slow, yet highly sustainable gains. I think this is why I tend to keep coming back to it. I eat like a monster. It is difficult for me to keep weight on as I'm an ectomorph (if there is such a thing) but I've been doing ok I think. Eat a lot of fish and liver and things I can eat a lot of easily to get the protein in. Eggs too. For carbs I eat pasta around heavy lifting days otherwise lots of potatoes (mainly boiled). My weight might be marginally higher than when I started, certainly isn't lower, body fat is probably around the same, might be a little less as I can see a touch more definition around my abs now. I know you guys want a 6 pack but I really don't luckily it's not close Good news on 5/3/1, wasn't sure whether it was only for us beginners or not. I couldn't believe that I could lift 3x95% of my deadlift 1RM, or 5x95% of my shoulder press 1RM for that matter.
tman666 Posted June 18, 2013 Posted June 18, 2013 Because it's heavy I eat like a monster. It is difficult for me to keep weight on as I'm an ectomorph (if there is such a thing) but I've been doing ok I think. Eat a lot of fish and liver and things I can eat a lot of easily to get the protein in. Eggs too. For carbs I eat pasta around heavy lifting days otherwise lots of potatoes (mainly boiled). My weight might be marginally higher than when I started, certainly isn't lower, body fat is probably around the same, might be a little less as I can see a touch more definition around my abs now. I know you guys want a 6 pack but I really don't luckily it's not close Good news on 5/3/1, wasn't sure whether it was only for us beginners or not. I couldn't believe that I could lift 3x95% of my deadlift 1RM, or 5x95% of my shoulder press 1RM for that matter. It's definitely not a good "beginner program", in my opinion... I think that it works much better once a person has developed intermediate strength levels. Beginners tend to do better with higher volume, moderately lower intensity programs with more linear progression patterns. 1
Author Emilia Posted June 19, 2013 Author Posted June 19, 2013 It's definitely not a good "beginner program", in my opinion... I think that it works much better once a person has developed intermediate strength levels. Beginners tend to do better with higher volume, moderately lower intensity programs with more linear progression patterns. Interesting, I didn't realise. I find it harder psychologically than physically if that makes sense.
Author Emilia Posted June 21, 2013 Author Posted June 21, 2013 Yesterday was deadlift day and having 1RM increased to 95Kgs it was hard: 3x5 at 60%, 70% and 80% respectively meaning a 10kgs (22lbs) jump between lifts. The last set I could really only complete with murmuring 'this is a piece of p*ss' under my breath . Did go as deep as possible though with the lifts. I know it will get better for 5/3/1 in 2 weeks time as CNS gets used to the weight all over again. Funny how that works. Then did the 'big and boring: 3x10 deadlifts at 40% - which didn't really help for the shoulder press sets afterwards . Managed to do 7 reps of the last set at 80% of 1RM. Only had the energy for some abs work afterwards, stretch and just about a curry with my friends. I'm going to back to previous 1RM (from 65kgs to 60kgs) for squat, I really don't think the squats were low enough during my last set on Monday. I think having the original 1RM with a belt on and consequently not lifting with belt afterwards has set that number too high at the expense of form. I gather sometimes you have to take a step back. 1
tman666 Posted June 21, 2013 Posted June 21, 2013 Yesterday was deadlift day and having 1RM increased to 95Kgs it was hard: 3x5 at 60%, 70% and 80% respectively meaning a 10kgs (22lbs) jump between lifts. The last set I could really only complete with murmuring 'this is a piece of p*ss' under my breath . Did go as deep as possible though with the lifts. I know it will get better for 5/3/1 in 2 weeks time as CNS gets used to the weight all over again. Funny how that works. Then did the 'big and boring: 3x10 deadlifts at 40% - which didn't really help for the shoulder press sets afterwards . Managed to do 7 reps of the last set at 80% of 1RM. Only had the energy for some abs work afterwards, stretch and just about a curry with my friends. I'm going to back to previous 1RM (from 65kgs to 60kgs) for squat, I really don't think the squats were low enough during my last set on Monday. I think having the original 1RM with a belt on and consequently not lifting with belt afterwards has set that number too high at the expense of form. I gather sometimes you have to take a step back. I can almost guarantee you'll have to do this multiple times in the future as you keep lifting this way. Beginners enjoy very linear progress: they add weight to the bar each week, or they add reps each week, etc. As you get more advanced, there are more variables that have to be creatively and smartly adjusted in order to keep advancing. Even then, progress tends to be very hard fought. In addition to knowing when and how to manipulate the variables involved (volume, intensity, frequency, stances, mind muscle connection, tempo, exercise selection, etc.), I think that part of becoming a more mature (and ultimately stronger) lifter is learning the art of backing off when needed. 1
Author Emilia Posted June 21, 2013 Author Posted June 21, 2013 I can almost guarantee you'll have to do this multiple times in the future as you keep lifting this way. Beginners enjoy very linear progress: they add weight to the bar each week, or they add reps each week, etc. As you get more advanced, there are more variables that have to be creatively and smartly adjusted in order to keep advancing. Even then, progress tends to be very hard fought. In addition to knowing when and how to manipulate the variables involved (volume, intensity, frequency, stances, mind muscle connection, tempo, exercise selection, etc.), I think that part of becoming a more mature (and ultimately stronger) lifter is learning the art of backing off when needed. Thanks, that's good to know! Will see how squat progresses after this. I find it easier to deadlift very heavy (ie when I doubt that I can do 5 reps but still manage it somehow) than squat it. You do olympic lifts, don't you? Is it really that hard to get into?
tman666 Posted June 21, 2013 Posted June 21, 2013 Thanks, that's good to know! Will see how squat progresses after this. I find it easier to deadlift very heavy (ie when I doubt that I can do 5 reps but still manage it somehow) than squat it. You do olympic lifts, don't you? Is it really that hard to get into? I actually don't do much in the way of Olympic lifting anymore. I throw in some power cleans once in a while, but as far as full cleans/jerks/snatches, I haven't done them in years. I basically just came to the conclusion that I wasn't getting as much out of them as I should have been for the injury rate I was experiencing. My view is that they are great lifts if your goal is to be an Olympic lifter and if you have a coach that can properly help guide you in proper form. Olympic lifting is so form and timing intensive, which is part of the reason that it is a sport unto itself. My training is sort of a weird cross between powerlifting style training and a few bodybuilding movements (direct arm/calf work/delt work mostly), with some "functional training"/conditioning work mixed in as well. Sort of along the same vein as strongman training, really. I've been logging all of my workouts on Fitocracy for about 3-4 months now, if you ever wanted to check them out. 1
Author Emilia Posted June 21, 2013 Author Posted June 21, 2013 I actually don't do much in the way of Olympic lifting anymore. I throw in some power cleans once in a while, but as far as full cleans/jerks/snatches, I haven't done them in years. I basically just came to the conclusion that I wasn't getting as much out of them as I should have been for the injury rate I was experiencing. My view is that they are great lifts if your goal is to be an Olympic lifter and if you have a coach that can properly help guide you in proper form. Olympic lifting is so form and timing intensive, which is part of the reason that it is a sport unto itself. My training is sort of a weird cross between powerlifting style training and a few bodybuilding movements (direct arm/calf work/delt work mostly), with some "functional training"/conditioning work mixed in as well. Sort of along the same vein as strongman training, really. I've been logging all of my workouts on Fitocracy for about 3-4 months now, if you ever wanted to check them out. Cool, thanks. To me it's curiosity more than anything. I see guys performing snatches and cleans and they look so flexible, I quite like that conversion of strength to power basically. It is what I enjoy about boxing and I thought in some weird way there was an overlap between the two: ie both sports are about power and agility. Will have a look at fitocracy, thanks!
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